Update 5: Instance Finder Developer Diary Feedback

[Trilwych]

I would like a group-finder to go way beyond just instances and skirmishes. Wouldn't it be fantastic to be able to match groups for world quests? Do the Dol Dinnen stuff as it was meant to be done? Do the Angmar content... If groups where readily available with an Xbox-Live style matching service, there might be less need for this incessant solofication.

I don't see any technical problems in allowing people to group up automatically when they flag themselves for that. The current system is too fiddly. Make it 'fire and forget'.

So... why couldn't Turbine improve the Looking for Fellowship tool already in place?

Unless Turbine plans on ripping the code of LFF and Instance Join out of the game in Update (#) when the Instance Finder MIGHT be actually functional for most people, there's going to be all these bits of overlapping UI things scattered around the game only serving to confuse people. How lame and messy.

[CroVoid]

I am 26 lvl, I wonder is it usefull for low lvl charts, anyone use this? I soo wanted to go GB, but I couldnt find anyone, is it easier now to find fellowship? If is so, I back in my fauvorite fantasy world

[Chanah]

Honestly, your best bet for GB is to simply go to Bree and put out an LFF: Guard (mini, hunter, whatever you are) first timer, looking for group for GB Maze (or whichever one).

It's fun and confusing to do even in an all-new group if you can't find any vets, and there are lots and lots of folks in your shoes. I'm pretty sure that the instance finder doesn't have any other instances at that level, so once you've found your group, you could then queue up, and still get the bonus.

The problem later on is that it throws you into any instance you're eligible for if your select ' instances'. GB is the only instance at your level and it's gated - first you have to do Maze to get the first half of the key, then forgive my senior moment here, but I can't remember which order the other two come in - there are three total, but they're progressive.

Edited to add: I recommend the LFF route because then you can be sure to end up with a healer, a DPS person, and a tank, which you'll want first time out, even if people aren't that familiar with their roles. If you let the instance finder pick the group - say you're a minstrel. You could end up with another minstrel and a rune-keeper, which is not an ideal makeup for that instance at that level. Later on you may want to go back with, say, an all-burglar, or all-minstrel or whatever group, but if you're new to it, it's going to be easier with the traditional tank/healer/DPS at the start.

[Chanah]

I would like a group-finder to go way beyond just instances and skirmishes. Wouldn't it be fantastic to be able to match groups for world quests? Do the Dol Dinnen stuff as it was meant to be done? Do the Angmar content... If groups where readily available with an Xbox-Live style matching service, there might be less need for this incessant solofication.

I don't see any technical problems in allowing people to group up automatically when they flag themselves for that. The current system is too fiddly. Make it 'fire and forget'.

See, that's exactly what I'd like it to do, too - but it doesn't, and it was never the intention to make it do that. I've always had good luck coercing people into my 'death is certain' adventures in East Angmar (so what if they're all master elite wights? it'll be FUN!), and we've all had fun doing them, but I realise that not everyone is as crazy, or as outgoing, as I am in-game, and I'm lucky to be on a server that's small, but people turn up during both US and European prime times pretty regularly. I'm also affiliated with six kins (twas me who set up the alliances, one on the RP side, one on the non-RP side, though all of them can be brought together should the need arise), and an officer in two of them, so I don't lack for groups. We need a tool for all those fellowship areas that folks would enjoy - to do the things *they* want to do, not to have the game randomly assign things for them to do! How about Ost Elendil at the end of that 30-quest chain? How many folks have had that hanging around in their quest log for 14 levels? It's a great, albeit very challenging, instance, and it leads to some neat session play to finish up the story after you do it, but the instance finder won't help with that, either. Or with class quests in CD and Urugarth. Get lost in parts of Moria and need a buddy? (that'd be me, even after all these years). Don't look at the IF, nothing there for you.

In short, the things folks need it for, it doesn't do. Most of us (everyone I've ever met in-game) can work out which skrimishes and instances they like and which they don't like, and which ones they have the time to run/are in the mood for that day. They don't need help with that, and they shouldn't be punished for having preferences or real-life commitments. But that's what the IF is about instead of anything we need it for, and it doesn't even do a very good job of that (mini-hunter-hunter for Icy Crevasse, anyone?).

These days, with so many people at end-game, if you don't know a lot of folks, it's a *lot* harder to find groups for landscape quests (Dear Turbine: Please do NOT nuke the few areas that are still fellowship heavy, they're great, those who love them want them to stay, and those who hate them can level fine without them). I have wandered around both Dol Dinen and East Angmar for days on end without seeing another soul. I have many, alts, a couple of them right at that level.

It also irks me that if you want to do an instance, you can't choose which one, and if I understand the devs correctly, when you are able to choose one in a later iteration (if that does indeed come about) you'll still be penalised for not doing random content.

I dislike the concept of the instance finder, and on lower level toons (I'm talking about toons 65 and under, haven't used it at all for a level-capped toon) the instances have taken a huge nerf in both experience and rewards whether you use the IF or not. I don't need anyone to tell me what instances to run. Some I hate with a fiery passion, and if you put me in, say, Amon Sul or Tuckborough, I will drop it. Icy Crevasse I have never had a problem with solo (groups are a different story entirely and I will not run that one in a group), though even solo it takes more time than I sometimes have. Attack at Dawn is weird. Never, ever failed it on most of my toons. Always fail it on my warden because for some bizarre reason whenever a goblin is attempting to escape in the last encounter, when I'm on my warden, and only on my warden, the screen freezes solid for a full minute. By the time it unfreezes the goblin has escaped and I've failed the skirmish. On a champ or a mini, it's one of my 'quick and easies'. On my warden, it's a sure fail.

Fun fact: Even though I hate the thing, I have been testing it for the sake of checking the new rewards. On lower level toons, it is simply not worthwhile to run skirmishes at all. On a 65 toon, the only skirmishes so far that have given decent experience are: Ford of Bruinen, through the instance finder (this shouldn't happen because of the NPCs, but I got thrown into it three times, and got lots of XP each time). Icy Crevasse through the instance finder. And Thievery & Mischief through instance *join* - not the finder. All gave good XP, but remember - that's at level 65. You will be even more penalised in marks, though, if you choose your own content.

At level 40, they give only 1100-1800 XP even using the IF (no rest experience). Add that the marks are so low, it is not worth it to skirmish on a toon less than 75. I was using my 65 to try to establish some baselines for different level groups, and even at 65, it would not be worth it. Assume you have an on-level, or within one level soldier, taking the soldier one level up would cost 1025 marks, and upgrading the soldier traits ranges from 180-240 marks *per trait* to upgrade one level. If you happen to have an ultimate trait, that'll cost you a cool 309 marks to upgrade.

I would never use it for an instance. I am in favour of boycotting the thing entirely at this point. It's lousy the way it is, and the rewards don't scale properly, even for things you're supposed to get rewards for. If you have the nerve to choose your own content, you're punished even more. Get rid of it and bring back dailies instead. Plus there's that little glitch in groups where you can't see any of the loot, so whoever's master looter can keep it all for themselves, or hand it out to friends and you'll never know - unless you're on a small server and said master looter shows up with a shiny new weapon 30 minutes after the instance - this has happened on the small server I'm on a few times, which is one of the many things that led to a lot of folks boycotting the thing.

[Wisp701]

OK... it's official. I hate this new instance finder. I honestly tried it with an open mind, but fundamentally I find it to be a process that forces me to play random content, and then punishes me with lesser mark/seal rewards if I want to run something specific.

If I'm solo'ing, I don't want a random skirm. I have little kids and have to dissappear from the computer quickly at times, thus when solo skirmishing I alway choose attack (not defensive) skirms so I can control the pace. With groups, I'm running 95% of the time with kin. Again, we're usually off for something specific... hey can you show how the boss on fight X goes?... let's run this instance for this loot... or hey... let's try instance X with 3 cappies..etc..

I also like seeing the GLFF posts for groups coming together. It gives you a sense of community, activity, and often prompts me to jump into a run when I was planning to do something different. If everything went throught the instance finder, it would feel like the community was dead...

I can see the instance finder developing into a good tool to pull people together, but please don't penalize us for having a mind of our own and wanting to run specific content that is fun. The grind is getting bad enough as it is, I'd at least like to have choice in how I grind.

[end rant]

[Martigan]

OK... I'd at least like to have choice in how I grind.

[end rant]

That post is absolutely spot on.

tried it again last night also with an open mind.

Got Pits, T2, Guard/Hunt/Hunt

Guard dropped out after 5 mins.
I got a kin guard in. We soon realised that it wasnt going to happen, so the other hunt gracefully bowed out. I got a kin RK in.

It was a challenge to say the least. Which was good. There is no way we could have done it with the original IF group, unless maybe we'd donme it a zillion times already.

I'm worried that you are going to make isen instances easier now so that they can be run with IF pugs with silly group dynamics. Just to reiterate the challenge of dying several times, while we learnt, with the kin group was a good thing and made it a worthwhile achievement.

There was loads of grouping on glff last night and I agree with the poster above, this adds to a sense of community and the resulting nonsense banter adds to that. IF is a soulless fail trip. Sorry.

thanks.

[Bramor]

I am 26 lvl, I wonder is it usefull for low lvl charts, anyone use this? I soo wanted to go GB, but I couldnt find anyone, is it easier now to find fellowship? If is so, I back in my fauvorite fantasy world

I've used it this weekend on my lvl 21 guardian on Laurelin for 3-man skirmishes. I very much enjoyed it, and I doubt that character would've seen much group time (or skirmishes, I hate solo skirmishes) otherwise since Laurelin isn't my main server (I mostly roleplay with the chars I have on there) and I don't really know any people on there.

One thing I've noticed on both servers I play is that it seems to still be a problem to find a 6-man group through instance finder, since there aren't all that many people using it (yet?), and most that do use it check both 3- and 6-mans, so the chance of landing in a 3-man before there are enough people around for a 6-man is pretty overwhelming.

Adding to that the instance finder likes to bug out on people when using it with an incomplete group. We tried it for the Isengard 6-man instance with a 5-man group a few times, but every time there would be one of us who didn't get the option to confirm, so in the end we were stuck with finding the 6th person through conventional methods and starting the instance through instance join instead.

Aside from the bug with joining a queue with a larger group I very much like what I've seen of the instance finder so far. We've used it as a quick way of getting into 3-man instances and skirmishes either as solo or duo players (usually when the rest of the kinship/friend list was off raiding somewhere ) and it seems to work pretty well for T1 that way. We've failed a few instances, but that was more due to us not knowing the fight mechanics than anything else.

Once we've understood the fight mechanics we've been able to pull off hunter/rk/rk Fangorn or mini/hunter/loremaster pits on T1 successfully and had a lot of fun (and met some nice people) this way. I agree that the group composition isn't perfect for T2 challenge, but then I think T2 challenge was not made to be done with just any 3-man PUG, so while it's possible to pug T2C through the instance finder I seriously doubt that's the focus of the tool. You can still use it with your pre-made 3-man fellowship (provided you don't run into the confirmation bug mentioned above, but I expect that to be fixed as soon as they figure out what's causing it) for the extra marks.

Bottom line: I've successfully used (and will continue to use) the instance finder for T1 groups from level 21 to level 75 and I'm very much hoping the number of people using it will grow to make it even more enjoyable. I don't expect the tool to throw me into a successful group for T2 challenge instances every time I try, if it did there wouldn't be any real challenges left in this game.

[Bigtuna00]

Adding to that the instance finder likes to bug out on people when using it with an incomplete group. We tried it for the Isengard 6-man instance with a 5-man group a few times, but every time there would be one of us who didn't get the option to confirm, so in the end we were stuck with finding the 6th person through conventional methods and starting the instance through instance join instead.

This isn't a bug with an under-sized group, it's a general problem with the IF. Look in your chat logs and you'll see lines like "so-an-so does not meet raid requirements" or something like that.

I was in a (full) group that was completely unable to use IF to start Foundry. We tried at least 6 times with multiple group leaders and reforming the group. This tools is really quite useless right now for a lot of content

[Bigtuna00]

It would be really nice if Turbine would consider giving the 1.5x increase as a global buff until they can fix the IF. The massive amount of game-breaking issues with IF coupled with the removal of dailies is unfairly punishing the player-base. Asking us to beta-test new features on live while punishing us for not using them is pretty mean.

[Ransroth]

This isn't a bug with an under-sized group, it's a general problem with the IF. Look in your chat logs and you'll see lines like "so-an-so does not meet raid requirements" or something like that.

I was in a (full) group that was completely unable to use IF to start Foundry. We tried at least 6 times with multiple group leaders and reforming the group. This tools is really quite useless right now for a lot of content

Can you provide a bit more detail? What happens when you try to join as a preformed group? At which step do things not work and what exactly is the chat feedback?

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

[asearchforreason]

This isn't a bug with an under-sized group, it's a general problem with the IF. Look in your chat logs and you'll see lines like "so-an-so does not meet raid requirements" or something like that.

I was in a (full) group that was completely unable to use IF to start Foundry. We tried at least 6 times with multiple group leaders and reforming the group. This tools is really quite useless right now for a lot of content

We had this problem when one group member had completed the quest to travel to the new instance location, but had not clicked the door to the Foundry. As far as I can tell you need to "discover" the new instances by physically clicking their entrance. Not sure if this is required for all of the new ones.

[shazbaat]

Can you provide a bit more detail? What happens when you try to join as a preformed group? At which step do things not work and what exactly is the chat feedback?

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

I've seen this bug trying to start both 3 man and 6 man isengard instances. Each time the person was standing in the ox-clan camp, but at least one time, it was early in the morning and there was hardly anyone around. The next time it happens I will try to get the person to port out and see what happens.

The person with the issue is stuck on the waiting ui and it hasn't changed to ready/abandon. Eventually the 2 minute time expires and you have to start all over. When we had the problem with a 3 person group, we gave the lead to them and it worked fine. When we had the problem with the 6 person group changing leader just moved the problem to another person. Eventually we gave up and just started it through instance join. This was on the first day, but I'm almost positive everyone who had a problem was in the ox-clan camp. I know multiple people in our group were there.

The only chat spew I can think of had to do with raid locks not matching. Some of us had Draigoch locks and some didn't. I'm pretty sure none of us had any other locks. If it happens again I'll look for more details. If you can think of anything else to try I will do that too.

[AwerthThawre]

We also had a problem with instant finder and a fully pre made group, the last man could not click ready and it timed out, we where all in galtrev at the time and it timed out in the end, meaning we had to wait 10 minutes for our member to be able to join us! Not the best of start for instance finder for us! ( this was a 6 man group set only for Isengard at tier 1, so there was only one place it could send us)

[Bigtuna00]

Can you provide a bit more detail? What happens when you try to join as a preformed group? At which step do things not work and what exactly is the chat feedback?

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

Group is formed, ready to do Foundry. Some members are in Galtrev (but no layering is active), some are elsewhere. Leader places us into the queue. A few seconds later the confirmation dialog pops up, 4 out of 6 people can click confirm. For the other 2 people, the it's the standard queue waiting dialog (it *does* pop open, but it's the wrong dialog) so they cannot confirm. Rinse, repeat.

Please note: it was not the same player every time but it was always at least two players. I was able to confirm myself only 2 out of 4 tries that I remember, the other two tries I got the waiting dialog. This is all with the same IF settings:

Tier 1
6 man
Isengard

EDIT: to clarify I did see Raid lock chat spew every time for the same two people. It hadn't occurred to me it might be for other raids. Why are we getting raid lock chat spew at all for 6 man content though?

[Atheling]

Came to the instance finder totally fresh (wasn't online for over a month so was a surprise to discover it in existance). It's rapidly become very irksome sadly. In fact, the only time I can see me now using it is with a pre-formed kin or friend group just to knock out the daily Isengard grinds.

Sub-optimal group mixes (look no tank or anything with any kind of taunt!) are fun with friends, but quickly become exceptionally stale when pugged. Think that it may be worth trying to refine the system a tad more because while dps may be the most common class, trying to shoehorn 2 of them into every 3 man pug is very hit and miss.

[RJFerret]

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

Funny you should mention, we were doing Foundry tonight and someone suggested going through the Instance Finder to avoid the reduced medallions penalty.

So we all waded through the windows, only to have exactly what you describe happen, two of our six never got the "ready" panel.

I aborted it, and tossed lead to another, nothing else changed, we all waded through the panels again and it worked this time.

All in all, an unpleasant, glitchy, tedious, time consuming way to avoid the marks penalty of a regular instance join run.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

[Araelinnis]

Can you provide a bit more detail? What happens when you try to join as a preformed group? At which step do things not work and what exactly is the chat feedback?

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

The same happened to me yesterday. I and two friends from the kinship formed a 3man group and we joined Instance Finder for a Isengard 3man Instance Tier II. We all went through the role selection, but shortly afterwards I heard from my friends that they are already in the ready/abandon screen while I was still stuck in the waiting screen. I was in Caras Galadhon at that time, just because it is not a very busy area.

We reformed the group and it worked on the second time. We also had different raid locks in the group.

[Kraggy_Eldar]

All in all, an unpleasant, glitchy, tedious, time consuming way to avoid the marks penalty of a regular instance join run.

What a sadly accurate description of this God-forsaken, ill-begotten 'feature' (sic).

[Raven-EU]

Can you provide a bit more detail? What happens when you try to join as a preformed group? At which step do things not work and what exactly is the chat feedback?

I've heard reports of an issue where one player's screen will never change from the waiting UI to the "ready/abandon" confirmation panel - possibly associated with that player being in a very busy area of the world - does that sound like what's going on? Does it help to have that player leave the busy area and move somewhere less busy and then trying again?

We've experienced this as well and our kin-mate says that he sees the ready/abandon dialog flash by, then go back to the waiting page. Switching fellowship leader seems to move this problem about so if I can't join with leader A, I might be able to join with leader B. Or the other way around. My kin-mate seems extremely affected by this and we can almost never use the IF to launch Foundry when he's in the fellowship.

Feel free to use us as crash test dummies on this if you need someone who can reliable reproduce this issue

[Varonel]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I felt I had to come here to register my absolute hatred of the current implementation.

Not being able to choose which skirmish / instance I run and, where there's a choice, what level I run it at, is a show-stopper for me. Also, I want to be able to run a fellowship with 4 or 5 if we choose to.

I read somewhere that the existing instance join is going to be removed, meaning you have to use the IF. I really hope the extra options are put into the IF before that happens.

[Aedfrith]

We in the Rangers can report exactly the same bug. Bonus morale, power and marks for using a buggy implementation? 3-man with tank and no healer (even LM!), or healer and no tank? No thanks.

[Thoronthor]

Had the same bug.
Multiple times, multiple locations.
Kinnies also report seeing the Ready/Abandon stage flash by and going back to the queue window.
To me it seemed like it is always the last 2 people to confirm their roles that get this.

I have to say, this bug alone stops me from using IF.

Because the tool is not working...please add the 1.5 mark bonus to instance join as well.
I know you want to incentivise us to use IF, but the tool is BROKEN and we shouldn't be punished for an ingame bug. (well we shouldn't be punished at all but that's a whole other discussion)

[Nostro44]

Came to the instance finder totally fresh (wasn't online for over a month so was a surprise to discover it in existance). It's rapidly become very irksome sadly. In fact, the only time I can see me now using it is with a pre-formed kin or friend group just to knock out the daily Isengard grinds.

Sub-optimal group mixes (look no tank or anything with any kind of taunt!) are fun with friends, but quickly become exceptionally stale when pugged. Think that it may be worth trying to refine the system a tad more because while dps may be the most common class, trying to shoehorn 2 of them into every 3 man pug is very hit and miss.

I disagree; almost all instances I've done with IF have been successful. Having something other than the standard tank/healer/dps makes you think about your class a bit more. Ok some mixes just don't work with some instances but I've found it fun to attempt instances with random groupings.

[DelgonTheWise]

We had the problem yesterday. Joined with a pre-formed 3 man, requested Tier 2 3-man Isengard instances, and two folks got to the "Ready" dialog. I did not, stayed at the "Waiting" dialog until the other two members timed out. We disbanded, reformed, tried again, and it worked. No idea what changed.

[hucklebarry]

There have been several reports of this behavior. We are investigating. I'm pretty certain that the role/class makeup is irrelevant. However, it may be associated with being in a busy area. Have the players that are running into this problem (the other players in the fellowship can see the Ready/Abandon UI, but these particular players can't see it at all until the timer runs out) been in a busier area than the other ones (in terms of having lots of other players etc nearby in the world)? If you run into it, can you try having that member teleport somewhere else, or changing graphics settings.

Sorry for the delayed feedback, this is not a fun thread to follow :/

We have found that it does work SOME of the time for the 6 man. (roughly 50%). When it fails, it seems to fail per session. I.E. we have even tried disbanding, switching leaders, reforming and trying again. No luck. If we try under the same leader, its always the same person that can't click "ready". If we change leaders, others have the problem. We have not tried porting, we will try this next. Will have everyone go to 21st hall where its quiet

When it works, it works first try. We have adopted the "first try or bust" logic when forming as it seems to not work again that day no matter what we try. If we have more time, I wanted to try logging in and out, but that takes most of us about 5 minutes to do and someone is usually time constrained so we haven't tried that yet.

My graphics settings are pretty low. Post Processing is off as are many of the frilly features. They are low enough that I know exactly when a craid is near in the Moors as that is the only time I ever lag.