Calming verse duration

[Thorgrum]

The above mentioned changes are good for a moors RK. There are however a few questions regarding those :

1. Is it a 20% movement speed regardess of the movement speed debuffs on you ? A RK being the easiest target in moors to zerg will have some sort of movement debuffs on them in every fight. The slow debuff applied by every creep class is either greater than or equal to 20%. If its a 20% speed increase after the debuffs on us, the RK will still be moving slower than at normal speed. In fights where we can apply a slow of our own this wouldn't be a problem. But against wargs that pop brands before the pounce or against pay to win creeps that use in-combat store brands ( convenience not advantage - LOL ), the skill will have very little use except dropping attunement.

2. The DPS increase is good.

3. If the fight lasts that long, its a RK win ( I am talking about solo play ).

The biggest buff for the RK class with this update is that the fights will be longer. While the RK is at a disadvantage at the start of any fight, a longer fight will mean that RK will have higher % of hits at full attunement.

What I would like to see addressed ( moors specific ) is to see a counter skill to knockdowns and to see a skill that can counter/mitigate ranged attacks.

Another concern is that DNFTF was THE biggest defensive skill for a RK in moors. do not fall to storm/frost is useless in moors. Almost all PvP fights will end with a lighting skill. So basically we will be stuck with do not fall to storm at the start of a fight. That will have a huge impact on the survivability of a RK.

Loosing dnftf is big I won’t deny that, even dnftl you got a tactical mitigation boost so I wouldn’t call it useless. That doesn’t negate your point that dnftf was a great defensive skill. However it’s been replaced largely with martial training because its giving us a morale boost, armor boost and tact mit boost. If I net the loss of dnftf to the new martial training it’s a wash (lost damage on martial training otherwise it would have been a buff).

I don’t know the answer to the slows, I’d be guessing but regardless its +20% run speed you didn’t have before. Audacity is supposed to decrease the damage taken, so the fights last longer. This is an indirect buff to the RK as you pointed out, the longer the fight the better for us. It’s not a perfect update for the moors centric RK, but there are some nice things in there.

Running 7 in the solitary thunder line with good gear and the right traits that RK is going to be formidable. We will probably see 10k morale Rk’s out in the moors before level cap increase due to martial training and the +2 virtue cap increase (another buff for free side players).

[AceDwarf]

If I net the loss of dnftf to the new martial training it’s a wash (lost damage on martial training otherwise it would have been a buff).

What are the new stats on martial training ? I read in the notes that it is receiving a boost. Some numbers would help.

[Thorgrum]

What are the new stats on martial training ? I read in the notes that it is receiving a boost. Some numbers would help.

+563 armor value
+1500 crit defense
+1096 morale
+726 power
+105 in combat power regen

Source: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?447468-For-the-Healing-RK-s

First page has the pics from bullroarer martial training is in the middle.

[Ghosttaker]

I hate being the guy who points out problems without a solution so......the easiest fix for this would be imo (which could be completely wrong) just one instant zero attunement fire skill, something we could start a fight with and put it up quick. Maybe make WoF an instant. Might be Op and stupid but it SEEMS like it's an easy way to fix the attunement issue if someone deemed it needing fixing. I say instant because I think it's unfair gameplay and not realistic to think that BAs and Reavers are going to wait for you to cast that writ, nor should anyone ever let the enemy take initiative if they can. Right or wrong I thought about a solution.

Overall though I look at it as a challenge, we're going to have to change the way we fight out there, bottom line. The store brands etc. are ridiculous now so that's the same. I also miss the days when I was tracked and actually knew what it was that was tracking me. I'm looking forward to seeing how quickly I can get a T3 WoH on myself, with a pot somewhere in there and make someone's eyes bulge because they thought they had me and now I'm suddenly at full health, fully attuned, their brand is down and I've got 4 stuns and my big hits coming at them. It might not work but let's be honest....for the RKs who solo, is there anyone out there you felt you couldn't beat one on one? Even if you lost did you leave thinking you were the one that lost it versus them beating you, or they got a lucky crit, or something you threw missed? Be nice to not know what's going to happen for a change. I'm not saying anything about creeps, I'm saying that if you know how to play this class well you know what it can do, you have an answer for everything the enemy can throw at you.

We could end up having a ton more fun out there.

And yeah, L75 2nd Age bag with WoH on it and L75 1st Age with Healing over Time on it is what I am currently working on. Be interesting to see what that ticks for in combat while we're fully damage attuned.

[choon_blaze]

I was testing rk in bullroarer and the 10 second buff with 1 minute cooldown is really silly.Make it 20 second with 1 minute cooldown or 10 second with 30 second cooldown please.And martial training gives 683 morale in bullroarer.

[cnrsnl]

A duration increase or cd decrease would be great. Even a legacy for this skill would be great.

Btw, anyone tested if it is a set run speed (like champ's sprint, guard's brutal charge) or just a regular run speed when lightning traited?

[revoked]

+563 armor value
+1500 crit defense
+1096 morale
+726 power
+105 in combat power regen

Actually current build (as I am seeing it traited right now on BR is only 658 morale, 484 power.

I am also finding the new calming verse rather awkward, at least when solo. When you are traited fire, the two skills you mainly want to use it for are Essence of Flame and Scathing Mockery, because the inductions are relatively long and easily interrupted. FR is already not interruptable and WoF is so short that it doesn't get interrupted. I suppose you might also want to use it when IoEF is up so you can get that off and then follow with EoF/SM. EoF and SM require 6 and 9 attunement respectively. Solo, if wait until 9 attunement to use CV, you can still use EoF...if the mob isn't dead already (which it most often is). You could use it on a newly pulled mob if the first one is dead, but then it will not have WoF tiered up and it won't be very hard hitting. Use it before you are at 9 attunement and chances are you will be spamming FR until you have enough attunement (WoF and MF will probably already be on the mob since you already had to get attunement).

To use SM after calming verse, you need to use 3 skills. Maybe EoF, FR, WoF...so about 4.5 seconds into the 10 second buff...Again, unless you have pulled a lot of mobs, the mobs are dead by that time. I am finding that solo traited fire, I am almost never using CV. I probably use it most hitting it out of habit before starting the pull =/

It should be better in groups, allowing you to get AoE attacks off without interruption...but in groups, in theory at least, you are usually not being interrupted...

Traited lightning it is much easier to use because a 25% run speed buff is always useful for kiting, so the problem is more that it isn't available often enough than that you can't use it effectively.

[AkhorahilEvernight]

Then lets say after Update 6 he still puts out 100 dps with the various changes that he's received. In addition, the CV is instead used as an aggro drop

So it's an actual aggro drop, really losing you aggro instead of just briefly supressing it?

If so, that helps a lot.

[loki84]

I hate being the guy who points out problems without a solution so......the easiest fix for this would be imo (which could be completely wrong) just one instant zero attunement fire skill, something we could start a fight with and put it up quick. Maybe make WoF an instant. Might be Op and stupid but it SEEMS like it's an easy way to fix the attunement issue if someone deemed it needing fixing. I say instant because I think it's unfair gameplay and not realistic to think that BAs and Reavers are going to wait for you to cast that writ, nor should anyone ever let the enemy take initiative if they can. Right or wrong I thought about a solution.

let's be honest....for the RKs who solo, is there anyone out there you felt you couldn't beat one on one? Even if you lost did you leave thinking you were the one that lost it versus them beating you, or they got a lucky crit, or something you threw missed? Be nice to not know what's going to happen for a change. I'm not saying anything about creeps, I'm saying that if you know how to play this class well you know what it can do, you have an answer for everything the enemy can throw at you.

no time to induct anything in a fight as an rk, if you're remaining still to induct, you're gonna die horribly. also if you're inducting something it should be chilling rhetoric. sadly chilling rhetoric only slows 50% now

snoopy, r14 warg that likes to target me cause he can kill me before i stand up from the knockdown, if it's a stun or he doesn't kill me...... he hipses, and jumps me again..... this time i have no pot, usually when using an enamel i can get to 5 attunement before i'm dead, if i use elf parry it increases to 6, but it is VERY rare that i actually get to cast perfect imagery, though even if i did, he has a pot and a brand and a store brand to deal with that, once or twice on a hunch i popped my brand just as he jumped me, he bled me up then he hipsed, waited 1 minute (also letting my attunement drop back to 0) and jumped me again with his own brand up...... i died horribly.

that's when he's alone, usually he has friends with him.

i won't take anything away from snoopy, he is far and away the most skilled warg i've seen. but even geared the best i possibly can be, i can't defeat him 1v1, he won't even try to fight me in 1v1 circles, cause bein an rk against a warg that rank..... i'm beneath him, and it'd make him look bad to be sparring me and getting free infamy.
^btw it hurts to say this, my Ego is fairly large, but in the interest of honesty, and the hope of zombie payin attention i'm relating this

[Crell_1]

So it's an actual aggro drop, really losing you aggro instead of just briefly supressing it?

If so, that helps a lot.

+ZC Can you discuss how threat and perceived threat work?

Your posts on the matter do not seem consistent.

And if its an aggro drop? Why does it have a duration?...

All in all the changes to this skill have left me generally confused.

[Ghosttaker]

no time to induct anything in a fight as an rk, if you're remaining still to induct, you're gonna die horribly. also if you're inducting something it should be chilling rhetoric. sadly chilling rhetoric only slows 50% now

snoopy, r14 warg that likes to target me cause he can kill me before i stand up from the knockdown, if it's a stun or he doesn't kill me...... he hipses, and jumps me again..... this time i have no pot, usually when using an enamel i can get to 5 attunement before i'm dead, if i use elf parry it increases to 6, but it is VERY rare that i actually get to cast perfect imagery, though even if i did, he has a pot and a brand and a store brand to deal with that, once or twice on a hunch i popped my brand just as he jumped me, he bled me up then he hipsed, waited 1 minute (also letting my attunement drop back to 0) and jumped me again with his own brand up...... i died horribly.

that's when he's alone, usually he has friends with him.

i won't take anything away from snoopy, he is far and away the most skilled warg i've seen. but even geared the best i possibly can be, i can't defeat him 1v1, he won't even try to fight me in 1v1 circles, cause bein an rk against a warg that rank..... i'm beneath him, and it'd make him look bad to be sparring me and getting free infamy.
^btw it hurts to say this, my Ego is fairly large, but in the interest of honesty, and the hope of zombie payin attention i'm relating this

So there's ONE R14 Warg who can kill you every 10 minutes who also likes to make sure he gets the kill by bringing friends most of the time? 500-600 more morale should help that and what are you doing for that one minute while you're waiting for him to get his brand back up? If someone needs to use store brands to beat you take it as a compliment. I'm not exactly sure what you are responding to in my post and I am also not arguing with you. There are those people on every server. We're squishy and we're actually getting things to help with this in the way of decreased CC and damage, and increase morale. It might stink, it might be awesome, we just don' know yet. I'd debate you all day though if you told me after U6 you would not be more survivable against that warg though.

Store brands are killing the moors btw. That brand should be changed, not our skills though imo.

[Zombie_Columbus]

+ZC Can you discuss how threat and perceived threat work?

Your posts on the matter do not seem consistent.

And if its an aggro drop? Why does it have a duration?...

All in all the changes to this skill have left me generally confused.

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

[Azerog]

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

The problem with temporary perceived threat drops is that they are nearly always useless (see Beneath Notice). As an example, Hunter overextends/doesn't pay attention that tank is stunned and pulls mob. If said mob is trash they just continue to pew pew until it is dead, if it is the boss they use beneath notice. The boss then finishes up wha tit is doing on the hunter then begins to wander back to the tank. Now hunters are usually a good way away from the tank so the tank has a choice:

1) Do I run over to the hunter and scatter everything else I have on me, some of which are ranged and will cause havoc if I get them out of postion?

2) Wait for the boss to come back to me by which time the perceived threat reduction has worn off and he turns back to the hunter.

If the later is the better choice, one of two things will happen:

A) The hunter tanks the boss in which case there was no real need to have a tank on him in the first place.

B) Hunter dies and then their threat is set to 0 and the boss returns to the tank.

Now if you put RK in place of Hunter in this situation B) will happen more often than not.

I know you can make a PT reduction mechanic work, but RK's will need a skill similar to Endurance/QS (or whichever it is) that generates 0 threat or actually reduces threat to cooperate with the tank. I don't see that that kind of functionality was added in to the RK repertoire.

[Thorgrum]

The problem with temporary perceived threat drops is that they are nearly always useless (see Beneath Notice). As an example, Hunter overextends/doesn't pay attention that tank is stunned and pulls mob. If said mob is trash they just continue to pew pew until it is dead, if it is the boss they use beneath notice. The boss then finishes up wha tit is doing on the hunter then begins to wander back to the tank. Now hunters are usually a good way away from the tank so the tank has a choice:

1) Do I run over to the hunter and scatter everything else I have on me, some of which are ranged and will cause havoc if I get them out of postion?

2) Wait for the boss to come back to me by which time the perceived threat reduction has worn off and he turns back to the hunter.

If the later is the better choice, one of two things will happen:

A) The hunter tanks the boss in which case there was no real need to have a tank on him in the first place.

B) Hunter dies and then their threat is set to 0 and the boss returns to the tank.

Now if you put RK in place of Hunter in this situation B) will happen more often than not.

I know you can make a PT reduction mechanic work, but RK's will need a skill similar to Endurance/QS (or whichever it is) that generates 0 threat or actually reduces threat to cooperate with the tank. I don't see that that kind of functionality was added in to the RK repertoire.

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

[Azerog]

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

Yeah, increasing the duration would help. I just see so many problems with high DPS build hunters that strip threat and the bouncing back and forth of the boss just leads to sloppiness.

Temporary PT reductions are significantly less valuable than actual threat reductions, and I just don't see this implementation of calming verse being any more valuable in threat reduction than the current implementation.

[Thorgrum]

Yeah, increasing the duration would help. I just see so many problems with high DPS build hunters that strip threat and the bouncing back and forth of the boss just leads to sloppiness.

Temporary PT reductions are significantly less valuable than actual threat reductions, and I just don't see this implementation of calming verse being any more valuable in threat reduction than the current implementation.

Indeed you are a correct. However what’s the genesis of the issue you are discussing? You have accurately defined a situation that occurs regularly but not the cause. If the cause is DPS, DPS is a player’s choice based on build and how and when they click the buttons. Aggro management is part of the group dynamic and I understand for a tank it’s a pain in the ###, but the issue, often, comes down to the player behind the DPS.

This mitigates it but it still holds the player accountable. If I crit Epic conclusion on a boss he should find me more threatening, he should run to me to kill me. That’s WAI, I hit the button I built the toon to crit, so now I am given a mechanism to change my choice, temporarily…. I think the middle ground here is to extend the buff, but otherwise I think it’s a good change.

[Bradegor]

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

I dunno, i have seen RKs getting so many times aggro off awesome (really) tanks, that i´m concerned. In raid fights a DPS can´t get aggro, period, because the raid tends to be over. Hunters have at least a threat reduction stance ... what will be for RKs? (let´s not talk about champions/burglars and their impressive threat management). We also can´t forget that, even with changes, we´re still the squishiest of all classes and getting aggro is more problematic for us.

In anyways, i believe new CV will be better for fellowships, but will be deadly for raids. We already had a skill which dropped our aggro (Distracting Winds), shouldn´t we just buff it up, and still give RKs a threat reduction stance?

[Azerog]

Indeed you are a correct. However what’s the genesis of the issue you are discussing? You have accurately defined a situation that occurs regularly but not the cause. If the cause is DPS, DPS is a player’s choice based on build and how and when they click the buttons. Aggro management is part of the group dynamic and I understand for a tank it’s a pain in the ###, but the issue, often, comes down to the player behind the DPS.

This mitigates it but it still holds the player accountable. If I crit Epic conclusion on a boss he should find me more threatening, he should run to me to kill me. That’s WAI, I hit the button I built the toon to crit, so now I am given a mechanism to change my choice, temporarily…. I think the middle ground here is to extend the buff, but otherwise I think it’s a good change.

True. I'm not advocating an EZ mode button. I just don't like the temporary mechanic, you may think you have things under control and the DPS eases back in and "boom" the mob is gone again.

Part of where I am coming from has been recent experiences on my champ. I got 2 or 3 major upgrades in a week, then we get back in a group with some really good tanks and using the same skill series I then completely pull threat. A champ can deal with that in a number of ways, but hunters tend to be less successful partly due to fighting at range from the tank.

I see this directly analogous to RK's and the new CV mechanic, it is essentially Beneath Notice. The only major difference in the comparison is the need by RK's to build attunement before the harder hitting skills can be used. Maybe a longer duration on CV would be sufficient to get back on top and actually allow the RK to do something other than sit and look pretty while waiting for the tank to get a sufficient lead.

[cnrsnl]

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

-% Percieved threat would be indeed a great addition, if we didn't lose our -20% threat. I think we'll have a lot of aggro problem, and most of the time we'll end up dying because of this change.

[Sizzling]

I dunno, i have seen RKs getting so many times aggro off awesome (really) tanks, that i´m concerned. In raid fights a DPS can´t get aggro, period, because the raid tends to be over. Hunters have at least a threat reduction stance ... what will be for RKs? (let´s not talk about champions/burglars and their impressive threat management). We also can´t forget that, even with changes, we´re still the squishiest of all classes and getting aggro is more problematic for us.

In anyways, i believe new CV will be better for fellowships, but will be deadly for raids. We already had a skill which dropped our aggro (Distracting Winds), shouldn´t we just buff it up, and still give RKs a threat reduction stance?

To be fair, while hunters do have a stance (endurance) for reducing threat, it's not really a stance you can be in for any length of time unless you want to seriously gimp your DPS. Having seen how ineffective beneath notice is for hunters for the most part, I am not really looking forward to having calming verse function much of the same way.
That said, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in how effective reducing perceived threat is over reducing actual threat...But I doubt it.

[Bradegor]

To be fair, while hunters do have a stance (endurance) for reducing threat, it's not really a stance you can be in for any length of time unless you want to seriously gimp your DPS. Having seen how ineffective beneath notice is for hunters for the most part, I am not really looking forward to having calming verse function much of the same way.
That said, perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised in how effective reducing perceived threat is over reducing actual threat...But I doubt it.

Well, our hunters use it for some parts of the fight where they need it, and still being able to parse high with it. The problem comes about our only way to lower our threat on such fights is not to DPS at all, ... which goes against the idea of the class. While learning Acid T2 before 1st wave i found myself spamming MF for lowering my aggro as much as possible as our tank had issues on staying alive and generating lots of aggro, we all DPS were warned about the issues of getting aggro off the boss, and hunters still could DPS using endurance.

Probably i´d go for a skill similar to champion one if we dont want to have a -threat stance, but with permanent threat reduction instead of that perceived threat which is really nuts and not much useful except for fellowships. If CV was changed to generate just 50% of the aggro during those 10 seconds, then it would be still way less powerful than nowadays CV but more useful. Oh! and then buff up a bit Distracting Wings so the thread reduced was a bit bigger, or simply give precisely that update 6 CV ability.

[Ryssadis]

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

Did anyone else just hear that WOW Angry Raid leader guy in their head saying: There is no aggro reset button.

[EldarQuendi]

Isn't distracting winds supposed to be the aggro drop? I mean calming verse was a great skill to help prevent large aggro gains and distracting winds for emergencies to drop aggro. It worked great that way, if we are losing the decrease in aggro production can we at least see some extra decrease in aggro production added to chisels/rifflers or traits sets?

[Feraxks]

Well that’s part of the group dynamic isnt it? I mean do we want them to make it so simple that a push of a button resets the threat? RK’s and hunters have to manage threat, that’s part of the price for high DPS. CV is okay because it reduces the threat temporarily so someone else can increase theirs and supplant the RK on the threat list. That’s a good thing, not useless. Now 10 seconds, is that enough? I don’t think so but the goal is to drop threat so someone else can pick it up, that will help RK’s survive raids.

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

[Bradegor]

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

Sure thing, explain this to the Lightning T2 tank, or F&F T2 tank...