Tracking an Old Goat

[whheydt]

I want to express thanks to Berephon for his statements that a fix is on the way, and for Turbine for stepping up to the plate to make a fix.

However, I am holding off congratulations for the fix until I see what it is and that it truly does fix the situation.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

However, I am holding off congratulations for the fix until I see what it is and that it truly does fix the situation.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

This is very good advice. From the tone of Berephon, it sounds like he still doesn't think anything was wrong (and it's been pointed out many, many times by Hurin just exactly what is wrong). Those of us who got stiffed with the incomplete deed (missing one quest in my case) just may not like the final result.

Just remember that when Turbine "fixes" something it's usually one step forward but two steps back or a step to the side. But who knows, we may be pleasantly surprised.

[sirwillow]

Agreed. I dont want to have an increase of deeds where you only get one shot unless its a 'choice based' deed where you get option A or option B.

Not exactly true. There are other deeds that are one shot only, without the choice. For example "The Undying"- If you die once, you've lost the chance at that deed and title. There are a few others like that as well, though I don't believe any of them stick around in your deed log to rub it in like this one does.

There's only a couple though, and in general I'm agreed with you.

[Yosoff]

No. The only reason this fix is being done here is the deed...

It worries me that you have failed to fully learn from your mistakes. Yes, the in-completable deed was a huge mistake, and you've learned from that; but it wasn't the only mistake, or even the main mistake.

The writing for the quests was vague and easily misinterpreted and the writing for the warning for dismissing Andreg was even worse. You knew this to be the case and implemented the deed as a way for players to track the quest chain. You saw the need for more clarity and a way to track the quests but implemented the wrong solution. Now you're going to fix the solution; but you still haven't addressed the original problem (or acknowledge that there even is a problem).

The ledger quest chain for the farm in Starkmoor does it right. You get 1 quest, finish it and immediately get the next quest. It's obvious what you're supposed to do next.

The Book quests from Theodred for fighting the Falcon Clan is done right. You get a parent quest with 7 child quests, it's impossible to miss one by accident.

The Morflak's lackey book quests are done right (and that is also a summoned NPC similar to Andreg). You get told when you need to re-summon your NPC and cannot miss quests and progress past them.

The Andreg quests are not done right. You don't know how many quests there are, you don't know if you've found them all or not and the warning only says that you'll cancel any "quests that are currently underway" if you continue. No reference to quests not yet bestowed. No reference to the deed. It was insufficient, nebulous writing and story telling that was at the source of the problem, not just an in-completable deed.

[Alex_Knight]

Not exactly true. There are other deeds that are one shot only, without the choice. For example "The Undying"- If you die once, you've lost the chance at that deed and title. There are a few others like that as well, though I don't believe any of them stick around in your deed log to rub it in like this one does.

There's only a couple though, and in general I'm agreed with you.

The two biggest differences between the Tracking deed and the "Undying" title deed is that there are no rewards beyond a title for the Undying and it's early enough that you can justify a re-roll if you didn't get it. In fact, as far as I know, the 'failable'/ 'missable' deeds do not give out a reward beyond just a title.

[auximenes]

The Morflak's lackey book quests are done right (and that is also a summoned NPC similar to Andreg). You get told when you need to re-summon your NPC and cannot miss quests and progress past them.

The Morflak's lackey situation may have made it easy to not miss anything, but I found the mechanism to be lacking any real point. I just ran around and left him behind, since it made no difference in the slightest if he was with me or not.

The Andreg sequence could have been written a little differently to make it harder to miss completing the deed, but at least keeping Andreg by your side made a difference, unlike Morflak's lackey.

[kyphros]

The two biggest differences between the Tracking deed and the "Undying" title deed is that there are no rewards beyond a title for the Undying and it's early enough that you can justify a re-roll if you didn't get it. In fact, as far as I know, the 'failable'/ 'missable' deeds do not give out a reward beyond just a title.

The either/or Lothlorien poaching one gives rep and I believe IXP along with the title. About as useful as another point in Honour when many (most?) people are capped by then anyway. Personally, I feel this one is fine as is, and should just disappear from the deed log upon failing it (clicking the continue button before you've actually finished everything).

[Gripn]

It worries me that you have failed to fully learn from your mistakes. Yes, the in-completable deed was a huge mistake, and you've learned from that; but it wasn't the only mistake, or even the main mistake.

That's a little harsh. This is the kind of response that might have made Berephon reluctant to revisit this quest chain in the first place.

I am grateful that Berephon has been gracious enough to promise an update to this quest chain.

Yosoff is, however, right to point out there are several places where similar quest dynamics have been implemented differently, and better. I also agree with others that having quests and deeds that you can permanently fail are, in general, bad. Having quests where you make a moral decision, such as the Frostbluff quest choice, are good.

My main issue with the quest chain as originally implemented was that the warning text was unclear, as Hurin has explained. Look again at Hurin's screenshot:



The warning only refers to quests bestowed by him that are currently underway. Like many others, I took the time to read the text, but failed to make the connection with the deed, or realise that there were further quests that Andreg had not yet bestowed upon me.

1. The warning text should at least refer to quests that have not yet been bestowed, e.g. "Advancing the quest will no longer allow Andreg to bestow further quests upon you and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are currently underway" and preferably to the deed, e.g. "You have not yet completed all the quests that Andreg can bestow upon you. Advancing this quest will prevent you from completing the deed, 'Track an Old Goat'".

2. How about two buttons a. "Finish Now" and b. "Finish Later" rather than a. "Complete Quest" and b. "X" in the top right hand corner?

[Jarryd]

The either/or Lothlorien poaching one gives rep and I believe IXP along with the title. About as useful as another point in Honour when many (most?) people are capped by then anyway. Personally, I feel this one is fine as is, and should just disappear from the deed log upon failing it (clicking the continue button before you've actually finished everything).

Both Lorien options give a title, one gives an IXP rune, (+option of quest reward items), the other 3 gold leaves. Neither gives a deed/virtue, or Turbine points.

My main issue with the quest chain as originally implemented was that the warning text was unclear, as Hurin has explained. Look again at Hurin's screenshot:



The warning only refers to quests bestowed by him that are currently underway. Like many others, I took the time to read the text, but failed to make the connection with the deed, or realise that there were further quests that Andreg had not yet bestowed upon me.

1. The warning text should at least refer to quests that have not yet been bestowed, e.g. "Advancing the quest will no longer allow Andreg to bestow further quests upon you and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are currently underway" and preferably to the deed, e.g. "You have not yet completed all the quests that Andreg can bestow upon you. Advancing this quest will prevent you from completing the deed, 'Track an Old Goat'".

2. How about two buttons a. "Finish Now" and b. "Finish Later" rather than a. "Complete Quest" and b. "X" in the top right hand corner?

Indeed.

I am one of the people who succeeded the deed/quest, but only with a hop to an external window for extra precaution.

Anyway as many others have pointed out before:

Tracking an Old Goat
Progress: 0 of 7

Saeradan, Amlan, and Andreg are searching the Gravenwood for clues to the whereabouts of the Old Woman of the Mountain.

Complete A Dark and Lonely Forest
Complete Cruel Traps
Complete Grave Corruption
Complete Hunting the Pack
Complete Lost Caws
Complete Orc-mischief
Complete Eyes in the Forest

The inclusion of Saeradan & Amlan in this deed CAN lead a person to reasonably conclude, Andreg isn't the sole quest bestower.

It is reasonable to conclude that.

The only thing the red text dialogue indicates:

"Andreg has accompanied you for some distance. Now the time has come to part ways.

You should speak with Andreg.

Advancing this quest will no longer allow you to summon Andreg and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are currently underway.

Andreg: 'You have been of great aid to me upon this road, <name>. I must turn aside now and scout the woods to the south and the east.
'If you turn north, you will eventually come upon the Rohirrim scout-camp, where Saeradan awaits you.
'Farewell, <name>. May we meet again!' "

It is fair to conclude that Saeradan will continue this, 'search'

So here is what I am personally hoping for as the implemented solution:

"'You have been of great aid to me upon this road, <name>. I must turn aside now and scout the woods to the south and the east.
If you turn north, you will eventually come upon the Rohirrim scout-camp, where Saeradan awaits you.
Please deliver this 'report' to Saeradan of the progress of our search.
Farewell, <name>. May we meet again!' "

Upon turning in the report to Searadan, he will either offer you a text of the flavor:

Completed 'Tracking an old goat':

"I see you have exhausted your search with Andreg, (how unfortunate *sad face* text) We have other matters pressing...

Incomplete 'Tracking an old goat':

"Andreg has additional concerns about the area you just scouted. He has moved on and won't be able to assist you, however if you could look into these concerns...

Then Saeradan bestows any remain deed quests and you can proceed AT YOUR LEISURE to complete WITHOUT (a reasonable penalty) Andreg in tow. The deed & ALL associated region quests can be completed.

Iterative re-visitation of problem (not gonna say bad) design, is good for the game. If you don't beleive me, just look to the situation with our vault space post FTP launch. Those initial vaults were horrendous! Iterative re visitation led to what we have now, & I would probably be correct in guessing MOST are much happier with what we have now.

I am glad you are re-visiting this quest series & I hope you view it as an opportunity to make it better, rather than resent having to fix something you perceived as sufficient.

NEVER fear an iterative design process. The opportunity to learn & the resulting improvements is what takes raw potential and turns it into that precious...

and then we all re-become game addicts in need of separation therapy.

[Lupini]

The Morflak's lackey...since it made no difference in the slightest if he was with me or not.

I like having him around. I like positioning him so that when I fight the other surly or named orcs, he dies. I was hoping for a HIDDEN deed! Like eating lembas.

(Yes, this is off topic, because this topic really should just be derailed into talk of pie or cake now that a fix is in the works. Now we wait for more information.)

[Gripn]

I am glad you are re-visiting this quest series & I hope you view it as an opportunity to make it better, rather than resent having to fix something you perceived as sufficient.

NEVER fear an iterative design process. The opportunity to learn & the resulting improvements is what takes raw potential and turns it into that precious...

Very well said.

[Moondog548]

Both Lorien options give a title, one gives an IXP rune, (+option of quest reward items), the other 3 gold leaves. Neither gives a deed/virtue, or Turbine points.





Indeed.

I am one of the people who succeeded the deed/quest, but only with a hop to an external window for extra precaution.

Anyway as many others have pointed out before:



The inclusion of Saeradan & Amlan in this deed CAN lead a person to reasonably conclude, Andreg isn't the sole quest bestower.

It is reasonable to conclude that.

The only thing the red text dialogue indicates:



It is fair to conclude that Saeradan will continue this, 'search'

So here is what I am personally hoping for as the implemented solution:



Upon turning in the report to Searadan, he will either offer you a text of the flavor:

Completed 'Tracking an old goat':


Incomplete 'Tracking an old goat':


Then Saeradan bestows any remain deed quests and you can proceed AT YOUR LEISURE to complete WITHOUT (a reasonable penalty) Andreg in tow. The deed & ALL associated region quests can be completed.

Iterative re-visitation of problem (not gonna say bad) design, is good for the game. If you don't beleive me, just look to the situation with our vault space post FTP launch. Those initial vaults were horrendous! Iterative re visitation led to what we have now, & I would probably be correct in guessing MOST are much happier with what we have now.

I am glad you are re-visiting this quest series & I hope you view it as an opportunity to make it better, rather than resent having to fix something you perceived as sufficient.

NEVER fear an iterative design process. The opportunity to learn & the resulting improvements is what takes raw potential and turns it into that precious...

and then we all re-become game addicts in need of separation therapy.

I've given out too much rep in the past 24hrs

So quoted as the latest (though one of many in this very long and 4 month old thread) clear, concise, and complete explanation of the problem.

I'm glad they're fixing it (6-7 months later!) but it's still disturbing that Berph doesn't seem to think there was any problem with the design and implementation of this quest line.

And his initial response to the problem (4 months ago) remains insulting in the face of his wrong assumption about the problem folks are having.

Man... when I realized the Ranger was following me around giving me quests I thought it was SOOOO COOOOOOL. And I did right up until the person I was gushing to about it told me that oh by the way, the rest of those quests will never be available. Because what is a great idea has had a monkey wrench put into it that the dev apparently thinks is a feature rather than a bug. :\

[Nurseferatu]

Your prayers have been heard and a resolution is coming for Update 6. The resolution is in QA now for verification . . . once it's greenlit, I will divulge more about how it will work.

Rivers and oceans of gratitude
Thanks for listening and being responsive to your players.

[TungstenVeteran]

Today I completed the quests in Carroglyn and was sent to Amlan in the Gravenwood where he gave me a whistle. This is it, I thought, the infamous quest line! What should I do, wait for the update and the supposed fix? Nah, time to see what all the fuss was about. It can't be that bad, surely? I decided not to look up any of the locations to see how logical (or not) the quest line is, but I knew from this topic to be careful.

So Andreg gave me Eyes in the Forest and Grave Corruption right away. I check the map and see these two are a fair way away. I step onto the path leading east into the forest and I immediately get Hunting the Pack. Excellent, all is well! I kill one hound in front of me and the path turns to the north. As is my nature, I stick to the path on the landscape rather than deviate, thinking this is what I'm supposed to do. I remember from reading this topic people saying "stick to the path" and you'd get all the quests.

Continuing north I get Lost Caws. I'm doing the right thing! This is easy!

The path turns to the east, I stick to it killing the odd Creban within range, and I reach a fork in the road. I can now go either north or south. I check the map and see Grave Corruption is to the south, off we go Andreg and I.

Still following the path I go a long way south, past the Grave Corruption area which is to the east, just to make sure there is nothing down here, and there isn't. So I turn around, get back level with Grave Corruption and ponder what to do. Try the north path I spurned earlier, or go towards the closest quest on my map? I choose Grave Corruption and head off into the forest.

At this point I complete Lost Caws, turn it in and get the deed. I check the log and I'm only missing Cruel Traps and Orc Mischief. Still plenty of the forest to cover so no need to worry yet. I complete Grave Corruption and decide the logical thing to do is to head for Eyes of the Forest as it's very near. As soon as I turn that way I get Orc Mischief, awesome! Further on I find the named hound Drugrir and get its unrelated quest item. Eyes of the Forest completes and after turning that in, Andreg tells me he's parting ways.

Wait, what? WOAH nelly. You're not going anywhere, pal. I still have Hunting the Pack and Orc Mischief. But now Andreg has a permanent quest marker above his hooded head. How am I supposed to know when Cruel Traps becomes available?

Now I have no idea what to do. Should I aimlessly run all over the forest clicking Andreg every 5 seconds to see if an additional quest appears on his list? Sod that! At this point I felt I had no choice but to look up where Cruel Traps was, and it was North West of my location, the opposite way from Saeradan's camp.


What a strange quest line that was. I really didn't understand why Andreg chose to leave me when he did, I would've assumed he'd leave once I reached Saeradan, but no, he wanted to be off in the middle of the forest. Could it be the order I turned in his quests? Those who completed this deed without any help could only in my opinion have done so in a specific order, because unless you know beforehand there are quests currently unavailable, letting Andreg leave once you've done those you already have is a reasonable thing to do.

[Kuriositty]

I'm another person who did actually read the quest texts (I tend to pay attention, and I enjoy the story), and did several quests with Andreg, up to the point where the red WARNING text made me stop short. I ran around with Andreg for a while, looking for other quests either from him or the other rangers, but assumed--as many people apparently did--that his quests and associated deed were part of a grouping with Saeradan and the camp; either breadcrumbs to the camp or part of the sequence. It wasn't immediately apparent to me that the side quest-line would completely dead end like that; we were not in an instanced area we might have to permanently travel out of (such as the Moria starting instance), and after kicking around in the forest so long I thought Andreg was out of quests for me for that "round" of running with him. Perhaps Saeradan or someone in the camp would give me further quests for the deed?

It wasn't until I was sent to another Andreg in the woods--the stationary one that gives out quests for Druggavar and Cuthrail in the Slade of Shadows--that it began to dawn on me that maybe those other deed quests had gotten lost in the laundry somewhere. This led me to the wiki and forums, and thus a great deal of /facepalm. I'm not so much a completionist (more of a mount nerd), but missed opportunities for rewards does bug me--as well as unclear lockouts. Yes, the red warning text was very clear, and I heeded it. However, I'm reading that by that point it's almost moot anyway.

I'm very glad to hear rumors this issue might be fixed in the (near? far? sometime?) future. Even if the fix is as simple as letting Saeradan give out a backup Andreg-Calling Whistle, I'll be happy for the opportunity to finish these quests and learn their story as well. Gratitude to everyone who discussed this issue civilly and brought it to the attention of Devs and GMs who needed to know the players' positions on this.

Thanks, and safe journeys!
~Enthea, Hobbit of the forests

[Cordtrix]

I am somewhat annoyed by this as well. If there is a chance that it can be missed (poor design there), then it should NOT be in the deed log!

Pretty bogus, never saw anything this poorly implemented in the deed log system (or pretty much anywhere else).

[Drogalo]

there is nothing about it in the Update 6 Release Notes (((

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...1-2012&lang=DE

[Hurin]

Fear not. The fix appears to be included on Bullroarer.

I logged in, and saw "Removed Quest [(Tracking an Old Goat)] due to Versioning"

The uncompleted deed is still there, but that's no problem because. . . Amlan now has a quest ring above his head and is offering "A Dark and Lonely Forest". . . I got the whistle, and Andreg is now following me. So it looks like I'm able to now complete the chain.

I wonder what happens if dismiss him early again.

I'd write more to thank Berephon for helping us out. But I'm in a bit of a time crunch right now.

--H

UPDATE: The deed seems shorter? (UPDATE: Yes, it's shorter, it doesn't include "Dark and Lonely Forest" or "Eyes in the Forest" anymore. . . so it's much cleaner and doesn't subtely encourage you to turn in the other two prematurely). . . but more importantly, if you add the deed to your quest tracker, there is a red warning text. It's truncated at just "Deed fails if Eyes in the Forest is completed. . ." and no such warning is appearing on my deed itself. But maybe that's because my deed is "grandfathered?"

UPDATE 2: The truncation of the red text warning in the quest tracker was due the length of the entry. As you complete the quests, it becomes visible: "Deed fails if Eyes in the Forest is completed before the deed."

Not a lot of people add the deed to their quest tracker, it's a shame that warning does not appear in the deed itself while viewing it.

UPDATE 3: Concern above may be moot. Because I was totally unable to get a quest ring to appear above Andreg in order to turn in "Eyes in the Forest" until I had successfully completed all the quests remaining in my deed. As soon as I completed the dusk-hounds one, the ring for turning in "Eyes in the Forest" appeared. So, I really can't see where someone could get themselves in a broken state again. Oh, and I got my deed completed (on Bullroarer).

THANKS AGAIN BEREPHON. Late for work, or I'd say more!

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Good news, thanks Hurin!

And with that gone my Eriador and Rhovanion tabs will be completely empty :-D Well, empty up to The Great River which will introduce more deeds. But I'll clear those up soon enough I'm sure!

[mjk47]

Hurin's BT experience sounds very good. Just tried it myself, and mine is a little different.

The system duly removed the deed from my log and I was able to get the Dark and Lonely Forest queest again from Amlam.

Summoned Andreg, and got the Eyes in the Forest Quest. Did all the running about and managed to trigger Cruel Traps, Eyes in the Forest, Hunting the Pack, Lost Caws and Orc Mischief.

However, no amount of running back and forth with Andreg around the oozing muck will trigger Grave Corruption. This may be because it already shows in my Quest Log as completed.

What is strange is that I was never gave me the Tracking an Old Goat deed again.I now seem to be in a state where I cannot complete Eyes in the Forest or A Dark and Lonely Forest.

Hopefully if I can get Grave Corruption I will eventually be able to complete it, but at the moment I seem to be stuck.

[Cliford]

Thanks, thanks, many thanks, better late than never

[Berephon]

Hurin's BT experience sounds very good. Just tried it myself, and mine is a little different.

The system duly removed the deed from my log and I was able to get the Dark and Lonely Forest queest again from Amlam.

Summoned Andreg, and got the Eyes in the Forest Quest. Did all the running about and managed to trigger Cruel Traps, Eyes in the Forest, Hunting the Pack, Lost Caws and Orc Mischief.

However, no amount of running back and forth with Andreg around the oozing muck will trigger Grave Corruption. This may be because it already shows in my Quest Log as completed.

What is strange is that I was never gave me the Tracking an Old Goat deed again.I now seem to be in a state where I cannot complete Eyes in the Forest or A Dark and Lonely Forest.

Hopefully if I can get Grave Corruption I will eventually be able to complete it, but at the moment I seem to be stuck.

Something went screwy with your experience...Tracking an Old Goat deed should not be removed from your log, only change to the new requirements. I'll have to look at that for patch.

It is correct that Grave Corruption will not rebestow...it should, in fact, retain completion of it and should count as completed for both A Dark and Lonely Forest and the deed.

[mjk47]

Something went screwy with your experience...Tracking an Old Goat deed should not be removed from your log, only change to the new requirements. I'll have to look at that for patch.

It is correct that Grave Corruption will not rebestow...it should, in fact, retain completion of it and should count as completed for both A Dark and Lonely Forest and the deed.

I always knew I was special!! I wonder what will happen on live. Maybe I shouldn't login on my main until after the next patch.

[Berephon]

I always knew I was special!! I wonder what will happen on live. Maybe I shouldn't login on my main until after the next patch.

I'm not sure at the moment...I find it immensely odd that it worked correctly for Hurin (and our in-house QA during version testing) and not for you. Indeed, you should be granted the title mjk47 the Special!

[Mark_J]

Fear not. The fix appears to be included on Bullroarer.

I logged in, and saw "Removed Quest [(Tracking an Old Goat)] due to Versioning"

The uncompleted deed is still there, but that's no problem because. . . Amlan now has a quest ring above his head and is offering "A Dark and Lonely Forest". . . I got the whistle, and Andreg is now following me. So it looks like I'm able to now complete the chain.

I wonder what happens if dismiss him early again.

I'd write more to thank Berephon for helping us out. But I'm in a bit of a time crunch right now.

--H

UPDATE: The deed seems shorter? (UPDATE: Yes, it's shorter, it doesn't include "Dark and Lonely Forest" or "Eyes in the Forest" anymore. . . so it's much cleaner and doesn't subtely encourage you to turn in the other two prematurely). . . but more importantly, if you add the deed to your quest tracker, there is a red warning text. It's truncated at just "Deed fails if Eyes in the Forest is completed. . ." and no such warning is appearing on my deed itself. But maybe that's because my deed is "grandfathered?"

UPDATE 2: The truncation of the red text warning in the quest tracker was due the length of the entry. As you complete the quests, it becomes visible: "Deed fails if Eyes in the Forest is completed before the deed."

Not a lot of people add the deed to their quest tracker, it's a shame that warning does not appear in the deed itself while viewing it.

UPDATE 3: Concern above may be moot. Because I was totally unable to get a quest ring to appear above Andreg in order to turn in "Eyes in the Forest" until I had successfully completed all the quests remaining in my deed. As soon as I completed the dusk-hounds one, the ring for turning in "Eyes in the Forest" appeared. So, I really can't see where someone could get themselves in a broken state again. Oh, and I got my deed completed (on Bullroarer).

THANKS AGAIN BEREPHON. Late for work, or I'd say more!

Well a HUGE thank you to Hurin for being detailed and persistent in documenting this Deed issue. Another HUGE thank you to Berephon for creating a fix for this as well...