The Death of group play? (Open tapping/contribution discussion)

[maxjenius]

Seems to me that this community is very eager to light its collective hair on fire and run around screaming at the slightest provocation.

Very amusing. Not quite an LOL, but an L, definitely.

[Bezmer]

See the first paragraph in my post.

Yes, it's a rather amusing paragraph. It would be true if some classes weren't patently more fit to dealing DPS, and if tabbing through a bunch of mobs to attack all of them before the champion shing-shings them to death were fun.

...yeah, I thought so.

[Trusilver]

Seems to me that this community is very eager to light its collective hair on fire and run around screaming at the slightest provocation. Chill, guys.

To some of this it actually IS a big deal. I play the game because it's how me and my significant other spend time together. We would be playing the &&&& out of this expansion, but we can barely stomach more than an hour or so at a time because of how obnoxious this mechanic has made fellowship play become.

I know it's hard, but try not to belittle other people because you don't agree with them.

[Deorulf]

Yes, it's a rather amusing paragraph. It would be true if some classes weren't patently more fit to dealing DPS, and if tabbing through a bunch of mobs to attack all of them before the champion shing-shings them to death were fun.

...yeah, I thought so.

I'm not sure what point you made relative to mine, but congratulations on being pleased with yourself.

[K0H-SpYrO]

Here's a solution open tapping EXCEPT in fellowships, this means that if a healer (me) was healing a friend who was dpsing I could still get the quests done. No-one loses anything.

[Bezmer]

I'm not sure what point you made relative to mine, but congratulations on being pleased with yourself.

The point is that your "defense" on an bad mechanic that creates hoops for people to jump through while detracting from the productive aspects of being in a fellowship is pretty weak sauce. But then again you knew that already.

[Bezmer]

Here's a solution open tapping EXCEPT in fellowships, this means that if a healer (me) was healing a friend who was dpsing I could still get the quests done. No-one loses anything.

Well, they apparently want open tapping to be open around the world. This still shouldn't stop a fellowship from tapping as one. Not sure what's the benefit of not doing so, is Turbine _THAT_ worried about dead weight in fellowships getting credit?

[maxjenius]

To some of this it actually IS a big deal. I play the game because it's how me and my significant other spend time together. We would be playing the [snot] out of this expansion, but we can barely stomach more than an hour or so at a time because of how obnoxious this mechanic has made fellowship play become.

Do you duo, or are you and your SO part of a larger group? If you duo and you're claiming you find it hard to deal with the mechanics of open tapping, I say "stuff and nonsense" to that. I duo as well, and my duoing partner and I (Hunter and Rune-keeper, respectively) have had no problems whatsoever. Most of the time, I'm attacking monsters. If we get attacked by more than 2, I'll start healing her. Either way, I'm covered.

"Tempest in a teapot," "mountain out of molehill," take your pick.

I'm not sure what point you made relative to mine, but congratulations on being pleased with yourself.

I still like your "setting their hair on fire" comment.

[Deorulf]

The point is that your "defense" on an bad mechanic that creates hoops for people to jump through while detracting from the productive aspects of being in a fellowship is pretty weak sauce. But then again you knew that already.

Your snark is as crudely rendered as your logic.

If you're playing in the open world with support/heals and they are providing only support or heals when questing against trivial mobs somebody is getting a free ride. Open tapping simply means that all classes are under the same obligation to participate in an open world fellowship as they are solo. Why? Because against trivial mobs support/heals are unnecessary.

Again, the system could use some refinement, but this is being blown out of proportion.

But then again, of course, quite, and thank you, yes, you know already, santificado sea to nombre, & ta-da.

[Trusilver]

Do you duo, or are you and your SO part of a larger group? If you duo and you're claiming you find it hard to deal with the mechanics of open tapping, I say "stuff and nonsense" to that. I duo as well, and my duoing partner and I (Hunter and Rune-keeper, respectively) have had no problems whatsoever. Most of the time, I'm attacking monsters. If we get attacked by more than 2, I'll start healing her. Either way, I'm covered.

"Tempest in a teapot," "mountain out of molehill," take your pick.

I'm happy for you! *pat on the head*

She's a loremaster and I'm a hunter. If she mezzes an enemy, I end up killing another before she tags. No credit. My range is outside of hers, so if I get lucky and kill the first mob with a crit before it gets in her range. No credit. If she sends her pet in and I IPS the target down before her pet gets an attack. No credit. It's even worse for burgs.

I always enjoy people that think "It's not a problem for ME, so OBVIOUSLY it must not be a problem for anyone!"

[Celestrata]

Ok guys, let's drop the snarky back and forth with one another. If you guys want to use this thread to offer your opinions to us, that's fine. That's what this thread is here for. However, do not insult or start disagreeing with someone else simply because you don't like their take on the matter. This goes for both sides.

My advice to all of you: Simply leave us your feedback, and then leave the thread. Let us worry about looking through and collating everyone's feedback.

Otherwise, if you really want to discuss this amongst yourselves, do so kindly, politely, and with respect to the other side.

[Starrywisdom]

Do you duo, or are you and your SO part of a larger group? If you duo and you're claiming you find it hard to deal with the mechanics of open tapping, I say "stuff and nonsense" to that. I duo as well, and my duoing partner and I (Hunter and Rune-keeper, respectively) have had no problems whatsoever. .

We have a problem(me and my duo partner) mainly due to playstyle. I play a thief and she plays a heavy DPS. I come from a different playstyle(FFXI) and how I play isn't the run to mob, whack whack, go to next mob. How /we/ play means I have to actually CHANGE my style of play.

During Isengard we would setup a slow moving 'camp'. We would grab 1-3 mobs and start going to town, timeing it well enough right as they are dead she/they could move a few feet and I will have pulled another 1-3 mobs and CC'd them and once they start attacking I'm out to pull more back to us. Wether it's deeding or normal questing this is pretty much how I've ALWAYS played lotro; wether with just my wife or with a group of friends.

In the current system I recieve 0 exp because I 1)only use non-damaging skills - 2)mainly use CC abilities. I'm contributing quite a LOT to how my group plays, but in the current system I'm contributing absolutely nothing. Obviously not many people play the way we do, but to say it's not effecting anyone is a little bit of an understatement.

[maxjenius]

She's a loremaster and I'm a hunter. If she mezzes an enemy, I end up killing another before she tags. No credit.

So you're saying she stuns and then stands around watching while you finish it off?

My range is outside of hers, so if I get lucky and kill the first mob with a crit before it gets in her range.

You're further saying your Hunter is so bad-a** it one-shots 6000 HP level 75 monsters so often it causes her to miss out on a significant number of contribution opportunities?

Edit: Making the "tapping entity" the Fellowship is not bad, but overall, open tapping is a good idea. Like Deorulf stated, as a practical matter, how many people really need the aid of debuffs when tackling on-level landscape monsters? If someone is working on a class deed, OK, but otherwise, why bother?

[Bezmer]

Your snark is as crudely rendered as your logic.

If you're playing in the open world with support/heals and they are providing only support or heals when questing against trivial mobs somebody is getting a free ride. Open tapping simply means that all classes are under the same obligation to participate in an open world fellowship as they are solo. Why? Because against trivial mobs support/heals are unnecessary.

Again, the system could use some refinement, but this is being blown out of proportion.

But then again, of course, quite, and thank you, yes, you know already, santificado sea to nombre, & ta-da.

Except this is patently unfit for LOTRO, because not all classes are fit to "fully participate" under your definition. My captain cannot out-DPS a champion. That's not how he contributes. Forcing him to tap each mob is counterproductive and detractive. If someone has fellowed me they know and want what they're getting.

The most ridiculous part seems to that the system considers one hit some sort of a sine non qua in determining contribution. Why? I'll leave it to Taking 1% of a target's morale is not meaningful participation, it's unnecessary nuisance.

(heals are not the problem here, since main healers _do_ get to share in the XP under the current system)

*edited to tone down some attitude *

[maxjenius]

Except this is patently unfit for LOTRO, because not all classes are fit to "fully participate" under your definition. My captain cannot out-DPS a champion.

You don't have to "out DPS" the Champion to contribute.

[Bezmer]

You don't have to "out DPS" the Champion to contribute.

That's correct. Let me restate: you have to tap every mob before he mows it down, because that one hit is really more meaningful contribution than mezzing/rooting/holding aggro on mobs your tank can't take.

I don't mean to be an &&&, but I'm at a loss how people don't see this logic is completely foreign to an intricate system of checks and balances that a LOTRO fellowship is.

(I'm not even going to bring in fellowship maneuvers and whether being the designated decision-maker for situational maneuvers is contributing)

[Lurkerinthemist]

Since this thread is now in Suggestions, I'd say that means that it is WAI and Turbine thinks we are recommended changing it, rather than reporting a bug. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Celestrata.

Bye bye freepside If it ever changes back, I MIGHT log in again.

[Bezmer]

Since this thread is now in Suggestions, I'd say that means that it is WAI and Turbine thinks we are recommended changing it, rather than reporting a bug. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Celestrata.

Yes, the first post by Celestrata explicitly stated that tapping in fellowship is currently working as intended.

[Smoke1995]

Well, I will once more post, then afterwards ask anyone with conflict with my post to say so via pm and not spam this thread.

As I stated before, it looks like they made it to where you have to do actual damage to an enemy or directly heal another player to get credit for a kill and not just stand around and aggro, debuff, whatever. This concept is used in a few other MMORPG's that I've played, and I must say that the system makes sense. The way I see it, it keeps other people not directly involved from getting any benefit from it, which gives those actually involved with the kill more exp.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand how annoying it is to go around tagging enemies just so you can get credit. However, it does force you to take action against enemies, and not just be a credit stealer (I think I'm going to need a force field for that last statement).

Since this has been moved to the Suggestions area, I will suggest that this system may need to be modified for group play, just to shut the complainers up and to keep them from blowing up from all the anger they've got stored away inside.

[Whart]

Well, I will once more post, then afterwards ask anyone with conflict with my post to say so via pm and not spam this thread.

As I stated before, it looks like they made it to where you have to do actual damage to an enemy or directly heal another player to get credit for a kill and not just stand around and aggro, debuff, whatever. This concept is used in a few other MMORPG's that I've played, and I must say that the system makes sense. The way I see it, it keeps other people not directly involved from getting any benefit from it, which gives those actually involved with the kill more exp.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand how annoying it is to go around tagging enemies just so you can get credit. However, it does force you to take action against enemies, and not just be a credit stealer (I think I'm going to need a force field for that last statement).

Since this has been moved to the Suggestions area, I will suggest that this system may need to be modified for group play, just to shut the complainers up and to keep them from blowing up from all the anger they've got stored away inside.

Hmm, I'm not sure you can tell other people how or when to post in the forums. These threads are for the purposes of discussing the various posts presented here, and you have posted something. Therefore, it is allowable and reasonable to comment on it.

You mention credit stealing, and no I'm not angry over your use of the term as you seem to think we would be, but I am thinking that with the open tapping system, all I need to do is hit an enemy once with my lowest dps skill, and I get credit for a kill made by another player's 99% of the effort. Compare that to an LM or mini (or even a guard) who actively engages in a fight and uses several important skills that allow the other players to take down the mob, but never actually does the damage required to get credit. That kind of contribution doesn't sound like 'standing around' to me, but actively thinking about how best to strategically support the group. Which feels more like stealing credit, and which feels like being shortchanged?

Not everyone who expresses a concern over a game issue is filled with nerdrage. Some of us simply want to raise matters for civil discussion in the interest of improving our game experience.

[maxjenius]

You mention credit stealing, and no I'm not angry over your use of the term as you seem to think we would be, but I am thinking that with the open tapping system, all I need to do is hit an enemy once with my lowest dps skill, and I get credit for a kill made by another player's 99% of the effort.

And that is definitely a non-issue (and I'm not saying you are necessarily claiming it is an issue, but others have tried to make it an issue).

Compare that to an LM or mini (or even a guard) who actively engages in a fight and uses several important skills that allow the other players to take down the mob, but never actually does the damage required to get credit. That kind of contribution doesn't sound like 'standing around' to me, but actively thinking about how best to strategically support the group.

Again, as a practical matter, how often is a CC/buff/debuff tactic (where the CCer/buffer/debuffer focuses almost exclusive on CCing/buffing/debuffing) necessary when duoing on-level landscape monsters?

[Bezmer]

Again, as a practical matter, how often is a CC/buff/debuff tactic (where the CCer/buffer/debuffer focuses almost exclusive on CCing/buffing/debuffing) necessary when duoing on-level landscape monsters?

And again, with the risk of repeating myself: there's no indication this mechanic will be limited to Rohan, there's no indication it's only intended for open landscape, and there's no indication this won't be the mechanic of choice going forward for the rest of the game.

And along these lines, as a practical matter, does that mean that landscape is intended to only have monsters that do not require grouping with specific roles, or that should be done exclusively on-level? Sounds like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

[Ailedra]

As I stated before, it looks like they made it to where you have to do actual damage to an enemy or directly heal another player to get credit for a kill and not just stand around and aggro, debuff, whatever. This concept is used in a few other MMORPG's that I've played, and I must say that the system makes sense. The way I see it, it keeps other people not directly involved from getting any benefit from it, which gives those actually involved with the kill more exp.

The problem translating that to LOTRO is that this game has (relative to the modern MMO genre) relatively strictly-defined class roles. Very few games maintain true "support" classes...that concept has gone by the wayside in favor of multipurpose classes. I agree, it would be absurd in WoW or SWTOR (for easily-recognizable examples) for a character to passively buff a group (or debuff a mob) and call that full participation; classes in those games have had their roles sufficiently broadened (or blurred, depending on who you ask) that they have many more things to do to really be considered to be dynamically participating in the fight.

By contrast, LOTRO has managed to maintain a strong active role for pure support classes; Burgs, LM, and Cappies (in particular) are designed from the ground up to do exactly that...actively. That's one of the things that keeps this game unique. When a LM CCs or debuffs a mob in LOTRO, that's not a secondary benefit from bringing a LM, that's the primary function of their class design. LOTRO truly is a "holy quartet" game: heals/dps/tank/support.

Forcing those classes to be active DPS or heals takes them out of their primary design, and forces them toward a solo play-style (when you're solo, everybody is DPS, and AoE is generally better) when they're grouped. Use LMs as an example....as a CC class, they're very concerned with who AoEs, and where. Under these rules, they're better off doing damage to every mob than they are CCing intelligently. That's counter-intuitive.


In response to the "hair on fire", "mountain out of a molehill" comments, I agree there's no need for hysterics. At the same time, neither is it out-of-bounds for players to offer their honest feedback, to include explaining exactly how they feel this change will affect them (as opposed to just saying "I don't like this"). No matter how cynical you might be, Turbine actually has set a precedent for taking community feedback into account (content of that feedback, not just volume of feedback) when making decisions. Expressing a strong opinion is still feedback; it changes a statement like "I wish this were different" to "this truly adversely affects my enjoyment of your product"... and trying to minimize that feedback by characterizing it all as hysterics is no more helpful than any hysterics themselves.

[Annawillow]

Ok if this stupid change is going to stay the way it is, how about we add a damage componet to gaurdian challenge and challenge of darkness. That or give us a long range weak aoe. Same thing with my Burg, I want a long range weak aoe added. This whole system is way to in favor of the ranged dps classes.

That or nerf the range on hunters,mini,rks

[Whart]

And that is definitely a non-issue (and I'm not saying you are necessarily claiming it is an issue, but others have tried to make it an issue).

Agreed, totally a non-issue from my perspective. I was raising it only for purpose of comparison between someone who uses one skill on a mob vs. someone who uses many, my main point being that I don't think it's 'stealing' anything (or failing to contribute) if one actively uses skills to support a fellowship during combat, whether those skills are single target dps, AoE dps, cc, aggro, buff/debuff, or healing.

Again, as a practical matter, how often is a CC/buff/debuff tactic (where the CCer/buffer/debuffer focuses almost exclusive on CCing/buffing/debuffing) necessary when duoing on-level landscape monsters?

Rarely necessary, I agree. But that may be the way a group chooses to play its classes, and I tend to dislike mechanics that feel like they are steering a player too heavily towards one method of combat over another (and I say 'feel like', not trying to advance any conspiracy theories lol). If a group has a style that they enjoy and that works for them, and all parties are doing something to contribute to a fight, I think they should all get credit.

Now I'm as guilty as the next player of putting my sweetie on follow when I need a quick break, and I'll grumble to myself about not getting credit for his kills anymore while I'm afk , but in principle I think that part of change is fair enough. But treating an active player in a support role the same as someone who is afk just feels a bit off to me.