Update 10 Developer Diary -- Itemization Information

[Grimdi]

Without knowing the specifics of the new loottables I won't call the changes good/bad. Though I still think the best option would have been to just remove loot from instances completely and switch to a barter system (with deed gating and currency being scaled on a cooldown timer to reduce farming). Though that would require some new coding instead of editing the item database, so I guess it's too much to expect.

[Ahearn]

I rly dont see a real issue here.
Is situation much different now,speaking of loot?
No,it is exactly the same and i dont see problem with it.

Example,why would any tank want to run Prancing Pony skirm?There is 0 loot that can be used for tank,yet there are always tanks there or the skirmish itself wouldnt be run at all.And it is run,alot.
Same with SG?what good drops there for tanks?Or why would champ run Goblin Town,etc etc,there are numerous examples.

I am rly happy about scaling instances seeing new loot,regardless wich class will want to run wich cluster more.
Nothing is changing,it was always this way,you cant put 3-4 excellent drops in EVERY instances,that would be insane,and that was never the case,every (or majority) instance has some excellent loot for some class,and some less worthy loot.

[Tubalcain]

Look, I hear you, the team over there is probably small, but there are other developers, and presumably if they were talking to each other a lot of dumb things wouldn't make it to Bullroarer much less Live. Rowan's clarification actually sounded like he had no idea what Rock was doing, walked over to his desk, talked it out, and then clarified for us. That is completely baffling and frankly, unacceptable, for a change that is currently in build 4 and about to be released.

The Fate changes, the virtual elimination of class skills arising from the Fate changes, the Horse-lords drop design, the T1 vs T2 drop disparities, the disparity in power on the new armour set bonuses and epic rings, and now these changes are just ridiculous. There is no coherence to their decisions, which makes me think that no one over there is talking to one another.

I have been playing this game a long time and I have never seen a string like this of completely incomprehensible design decisions. It's getting bad man- real bad. There are tons of posts of general dissatisfaction, puzzlement, and people calling Update 10 "a joke" or Lotro's "NGE".

If there were ever a time for real Developer communication, it is now. Sadly, I will bet 100g that they don't address any of these concerns in tomorrows Twitter chat.

Do not mention NGE! *full body shudder*

[Souku]

If you can't get your friend or kin member to come along with you w/o the promise of loot, maybe you need new friends, or a better kin. Unless, of course, they do that to you because you yourself are known for not going anywhere w/o the promise of loot. You get what you give.

The quoted issue is not exactly Turbine's problem.

except with the way that the loot drops work since RoR, it's not like you would be asking someone to come for one run, or even two. you would probably need around 20 runs to have a reasonable expectation of getting the drop you want if it's a teal, and around 1000 runs to get the drop you want if it's a gold.

[Aohh]

You say that as though there IS a larger design team. Things have been done piecemeal and with little consideration to other aspects of the game for a quite a while now. I assume turbine simply doesn't have the staff to both develop things AND coordinate the various developments in a cohesive manner.


The quote from RockX everyone is picking apart should simply be read "business as usual: different instance clusters drop different loot"


The explanation given for the changes in Armour set-bonuses doesn't hold water.


The only thing of note in this diary is that they are expanding on the dumb Legendary/Epic quality item system. Hytbolt was a grind with fixed outcomes and I'd tend to assume turbine realized that once people finished it, they never went back. The only way to keep people logging in and playing when you are relying on recycled content is to release items everyone will want, and jack up the drop rate to astronomical levels where even massive time investments won't guarantee you get what you are after. Awesome.

Totally well said. +rep if possible.

Ah, yes, another special snowflake that thinks that if you don't play the game exactly as s/he does, and that if you get loot that he doesn't have yet, you aren't 'deserving'...

I was hoping more of you would go to Rift or WoW or the next new thing.

Your post is packed with so much assumptions and fallacies, I don't even know why I bother commenting it.
The reality is that only 'luck' enters in account regarding golden loot distribution. Only luck tell players apart. You know that luck and randomness being the main determining factors is really frustrating right? Because it defeats the purpose of trying to optimize your character. What's the use of trying to min maxing or improving your chance to clear the content, if in the end it has no impact?
The reality is I have tried hard to get any golden items: I have none.
I have done Barad T2 with a fellow pick hunter. His first run. That guy did terrible and he got the boots.

Yes you have to set a 'deserving system' so that players have a goal to strive for, and so that legendary items mean really something. Currently they are given to any average chump...makes me wonder why they are not in the lotro lottery, it would boil down to the same.
As for me being a special snowflake: hint I'm not a hardcore raider. But a goal, even unattainable is better than that absurd and &&&&&&&& lottery. I will never applause the developer responsible of that loot policy.

[Armitas]

Sets will now give either stats or skill modifying effects as their set bonuses. In addition, skill modifying effects have been standardized to fill the 2 and 4-set bonuses, instead of the 3 and 5-set bonuses.

I'm okay with losing stats, as defined by our 5 main stats, might, vit etc. However there are certain set bonuses that define the set, such as the tactical mitigation 2 set bonus on loyalty "tanking" set. If you remove that 2 set bonus you defeat the purpose of that set.

Finesse is also one of those 2 set bonuses that if removed may leave us with a poor pool of finesse. To make up for the lost finesse on jewelry we would have to give up even more of those stats due to the limited amount of slices per piece of jewelry.

How will this issue be addressed in these changes?

here is a list of just some of the sets that will be effected. Gathered from here.

• +2 stealth bonus from the armor of the unseen.
  

• +1747 tactical mitigation from the captains loyalty armor (effectively leaving a tank set with absolutely no mitigation)

• Wardens - Hytbold Shield set: + to incoming healing
  
• Wardens - Solidarity set +1500 Tactical mitigation
• Hunters - Depends on armor set: + Finesse
• Lore-masters - finesse for our all-important debuffs.
• Champs - 2-set Resilient bonus of +1747 tac mit

[BigLotroFan]

:/ I don't really have a problem with the loot system or the way legendary quality items/recipes drop. I just understand them to be items that not everyone is supposed to have. More like a treasure some lucky person finds. So if it happens it happens. Everything shouldn't be attainable via a simple A to Z route. Especially when there already is plenty of gear that is attainable that way is and is more than good enough to do all the content in the game. It's like being Bilbo (or Gollum) and coming across the One Ring by chance vs giving them a guaranteed path of acquiring it.

[Allorn]

The ONLY way I can see this working (one loot for one class only from each instance) is if you make the instance so that a group of 12 minis or 12 hunter or 12 tanks can run it.. how ridiculous.

Getting a group together to run something that has absolutely NO gain (?) in terms of armor for 10 of the 12 or 11 of the 12 players running it is going to be next to impossible.

Please consider this: random loot drops for *all* classes in *all* instances but make the boss/bosses or chest drop *guaranteed* for one particular class.

So out of instance X, you have the armor pieces given at the end boss for mini with random drops from random mobs for other classes but from instance Y, the boss/bosses/chest will have an armor piece drop for guard with random drops from mobs for other classes....I suggest this IF you just have to have specific instances have specific drops for specific classes.

[Frisco]

:/ I don't really have a problem with the loot system or the way legendary quality items/recipes drop. I just understand them to be items that not everyone is supposed to have. More like a treasure some lucky person finds. So if it happens it happens. Everything shouldn't be attainable via a simple A to Z route. Especially when there already is plenty of gear that is attainable that way is and is more than good enough to do all the content in the game. It's like being Bilbo (or Gollum) and coming across the One Ring by chance vs giving them a guaranteed path of acquiring it.

Well, considering Turbine's favorite raid tactic has become DPS RACE MOAR DOTS!!1one!, we've had to become more and more concerned with that 1% improvement than before. If they go back to more creative raid tactics, where groups can be just as successful with a balanced group as they can by bringing 4 Burgs, then this itemization is fine with me. There will always be min-maxers for PvP, and just because, but it feels like they created even more of a stigma against A-minus Grade gear when they decided to balance T2C around having A-plus gear.

Obviously, each piece is just a small bonus in itself (though some of the class-specific pieces are pretty clearly game-changing), but together, they are pretty powerful. Hopefully the content is designed so that the new stuff is something you'd *like* to have, but not necessary for completing the content.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

The ONLY way I can see this working (one loot for one class only from each instance) is if you make the instance so that a group of 12 minis or 12 hunter or 12 tanks can run it.. how ridiculous.

Getting a group together to run something that has absolutely NO gain (?) in terms of armor for 10 of the 12 or 11 of the 12 players running it is going to be next to impossible.

Please consider this: random loot drops for *all* classes in *all* instances but make the boss/bosses or chest drop *guaranteed* for one particular class.

So out of instance X, you have the armor pieces given at the end boss for mini with random drops from random mobs for other classes but from instance Y, the boss/bosses/chest will have an armor piece drop for guard with random drops from mobs for other classes....I suggest this IF you just have to have specific instances have specific drops for specific classes.

Please read Rowan's comments - what you suggested will not happen, as in each cluster there will be, for example, a tank neck, a might earring, an agi bracelet and a will pocket.

[Lestache]

Please read Rowan's comments - what you suggested will not happen, as in each cluster there will be, for example, a tank neck, a might earring, an agi bracelet and a will pocket.

Sure, but will they all be desirable?

Or will it be like the current instances, in which groups of 3 casters are running Iorbar's Peak, and Champ/Guard/Captain groups are running Warg Pens?

It does no good to have a might earring in the same cluster as a will pocket if a better version of either can be found somewhere else. Each cluster needs to have a best-in-slot item for every class, or it won't matter, especially since every cluster (save the new Erebor instances) will be years old recycled content.

[Valamar]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that with the Remote Looting changes, there will NOT be ONLY ONE desirable Item DROP PER RUN, which might or might not be useable by more than one class, as was the case in the past; but rather each participant will have the chance to get an item DESIRABLE FOR THEIR CLASS. Which translates into the possibilty that, in a single run, all 6 members of a 6-man might get the Desirable Item which is appropriate for their class -- not just one character per run!

Or in other words -- you might have a run where six teal Chest Armour items dropped, one for each party member, that COULD BE USED BY THAT CHARACTER.

[RockX]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

It appears there was definitely room for confusion with what I wrote for the Dev Diary, and I can definitely see why now in hindsight. I apologize for the confusion which has been brought up in this thread.

To expand a little on what Rowan wrote yesterday:
Each Instance Cluster is focused around a handful of item types and roles. For example, Cluster A might give DPS Bracelets, DPS Off-hands, Tanking Heads, Tanking Rings, Healing Hands, Healing Legs, etc.
Each Instance within the cluster has its own Rare and/or Incomparable loot, based off what was assigned to the cluster, and every revamped instance has equipment which is usable by each class.

This should help to encourage players to run different instances, as different pieces of gear will drop for them in different spaces.

[RockX]

Sure, but will they all be desirable?

Or will it be like the current instances, in which groups of 3 casters are running Iorbar's Peak, and Champ/Guard/Captain groups are running Warg Pens?

It does no good to have a might earring in the same cluster as a will pocket if a better version of either can be found somewhere else. Each cluster needs to have a best-in-slot item for every class, or it won't matter, especially since every cluster (save the new Erebor instances) will be years old recycled content.

Different spaces will drop gear with different focuses. Some pieces might be more focused towards being a glass cannon, some with more of a focus on survivability.

As to desirability, well, what's not desirable to you may be to someone else. Or might become desirable in the future.

[Southpa]

Thanks for clarifying Rock. It doesn't sound so bad... Options are appreciated.

[Wartober]

Thank you for the clarification, but can you tell us the most important part: The drop rate. How many times is it estimated we would have to run before seeing a teal drop? An Organge Drop?

[spelunker]

So we're seeing over a dozen new instances with updated loot, and every single instance has a different loot-table?

Despite what you say, most people will agree on what a best-in-slot item is for a given class in their primary or secondary role. Most people want a specific item. There is a reason the agility ring that dropped in Durchest is still nearly worthless while the one that drops from Dungeons is highly valuable.

With this many instances available with specific drops, the likelihood of a single instance having drops that a variety of classes will actually want is very low. Coupled with the fact that the new remote loot system gives significantly less loot than the old system, I'm really not looking forward to what its going to take to gear out my character after this update.

The Skraid loot system where a whole 'campaign' shares a larger loot-table seems far more desirable as PuGs will see 100 hunters wanting to run GB Maze, while 50 tanks will want to run GB Sambrog, and 70 Healers will want to run GB Thadur, all while LMs will inexplicably want to run Jagger Jack. Yes people will and should work together whether the loot is favorable to them or not, but this is recycled content, so asking people to run an instance the 20 times it takes you to actually get the drop you want, when they have no chance for a drop they would personally use, and they've already run it ad-nausea in the past is not going to happen; beyond in kins dedicated to gearing people as well as possible.

[Vandervahn]

So we're seeing over a dozen new instances with updated loot, and every single instance has a different loot-table?...

No, he´s talking of instance clusters. loot will be assigned to the different clusters just like in the skirmish campaigns. i.e., all GBs will (presumably) have the same loot table.

[Lestache]

No, he´s talking of instance clusters. loot will be assigned to the different clusters just like in the skirmish campaigns. i.e., all GBs will (presumably) have the same loot table.

I think that your assessment is correct, but if that's being done in an effort to get people to run more/all of the content, then it's going to fail in that regard.

The community will discover in about 5 minutes which is the easiest instance within each cluster, and that will be the instance that gets run ad nauseum.

I suppose that it's slightly better to have 5-7 versions of Grand Stair, but not that much better.

[spelunker]

No, he´s talking of instance clusters. loot will be assigned to the different clusters just like in the skirmish campaigns. i.e., all GBs will (presumably) have the same loot table.

I think that your assessment is correct, but if that's being done in an effort to get people to run more/all of the content, then it's going to fail in that regard.

Each Instance Cluster is focused around a handful of item types and roles. For example, Cluster A might give DPS Bracelets, DPS Off-hands, Tanking Heads, Tanking Rings, Healing Hands, Healing Legs, etc.
Each Instance within the cluster has its own Rare and/or Incomparable loot, based off what was assigned to the cluster, and every revamped instance has equipment which is usable by each class.

I've reread this quote a couple times now, and generally consider myself competent in reading comprehension. What am I missing that makes you think different instances within the same cluster will have the same loot table?

It seems cut and dry to me that sticking with GB: Thadur might have a dps earring thats 'glass cannony' Maze might have one that is crit heavy, and Sambrog one that is more survivability focused. The whole cluster provides the over-arching 'dps earring' category (and presumably several other item categories), but each instance will have a separate loot-table with different dps earrings.

And again: I feel bad for people trying to acquire a specific item given how spread out drops will be, and how unfriendly this system will turn out to putting together pugs. At least recycled, scaled content is easy enough that most of the 6-mans could be done by a healer and 5 guardians if it came to it.

[Drachenjager]

These last updates are Lotros way to get rid of a lot of players so there is less server lag . That way they do nto get the complaints about the server lag .... or maybe not lol

[Ulanor_EU]

I've reread this quote a couple times now, and generally consider myself competent in reading comprehension. What am I missing that makes you think different instances within the same cluster will have the same loot table?

"Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y."

That

[Lestache]

I've reread this quote a couple times now, and generally consider myself competent in reading comprehension. What am I missing that makes you think different instances within the same cluster will have the same loot table?

It seems cut and dry to me that sticking with GB: Thadur might have a dps earring thats 'glass cannony' Maze might have one that is crit heavy, and Sambrog one that is more survivability focused. The whole cluster provides the over-arching 'dps earring' category (and presumably several other item categories), but each instance will have a separate loot-table with different dps earrings.

And again: I feel bad for people trying to acquire a specific item given how spread out drops will be, and how unfriendly this system will turn out to putting together pugs. At least recycled, scaled content is easy enough that most of the 6-mans could be done by a healer and 5 guardians if it came to it.

Perhaps I should amend my statement to say that I think that Vandervahn is partially correct.

The gold items on Live are currently cluster-based (Malledhrim Something of Something, for example), and from the looks of the names of the gold items seen here - http://imgur.com/a/6pLs5#0 - it appears that gold items will continue to be cluster based.

The teal items may not be, though. If there actually are any teal items that are somehow more desirable than gold items in the same slot, we may have to run a particular instance for them, like we do now (Warg Pens for might ring, Iorbar's Peak for the caster item).

On the upside, if you have enough people in your kin online who all want the gold item that Cluster X offers their particular class, then you'll all happily run part or all of that cluster.

On the downside, pug groups that are looking specifically for gold items will only run the easiest instance of each cluster, and chances are that kin groups will gravitate towards doing that as well after a bit of time.

[Bendin]

Different spaces will drop gear with different focuses. Some pieces might be more focused towards being a glass cannon, some with more of a focus on survivability.

As to desirability, well, what's not desirable to you may be to someone else. Or might become desirable in the future.

Ok 1st this isn't a criticism rockx, but I do hope you give the following some thought

a. If fornost, Bg, Hele and other scaled content(that people ran ad infinitum already) showed anything it showed that old content only really gets run often for it's loot. You guys should have ample metrics to show that.

b. If the tank classes have no incentive to run instance/cluster A due to loot options, your going to have an issue. Good luck to the poor puggers who need/want whatever digital widget is in there. Same for heals/cc/dps, the recent loot dramas should have told you guys something about allot of this games pop. Your relying on people running old content out of the goodness of their heart to help gear others. My guess is that particularly on smaller pop servers there will be *issues*


I implore you guys, hire a behaviorist or someone with a psych degree or someone with working experience in group dynamics, it will save allot of headaches all around

[Ulanor_EU]

Ok 1st this isn't a criticism rockx, but I do hope you give the following some thought

a. If fornost, Bg, Hele and other scaled content(that people ran ad infinitum already) showed anything it showed that old content only really gets run often for it's loot. You guys should have ample metrics to show that.

b. If the tank classes have no incentive to run instance/cluster A due to loot options, your going to have an issue. Good luck to the poor puggers who need/want whatever digital widget is in there. Same for heals/cc/dps, the recent loot dramas should have told you guys something about allot of this games pop. Your relying on people running old content out of the goodness of their heart to help gear others. My guess is that particularly on smaller pop servers there will be *issues*


I implore you guys, hire a behaviorist or someone with a psych degree or someone with working experience in group dynamics, it will save allot of headaches all around

I think you need to go read the thread again, especially the latter clarification. There isnt going to be 'no incentive' to run they are consolidating best item for x class in x slot in to x instance cluster doesnt mean the best item for y class in y slot isnt also in x cluster along with best item for z class in z slot.