Greetings! A new day, a new dev, and new ideas

[Lendas]

Again, lots of great info here. Much appreciated.

As far as whether I have an analysis done- yes. The initial analysis was completed before this post was made. The feedback gathered here is being used to validate/adjust the analysis and the proposed design for the revamp.

I'll share more information as soon as I can, but for now we don't want to influence the thread.

Thanks

Mmmm Hmmmmm.... yes... I see.... hmmm.

.... always posts on burglar forum first..... forgets to post on Hunter forums....... posts more on Burglar forums.... mmm hmmm yes.... I see...

mmmmm hmmm.... yes I think im getting the message..... Yes I think I understand. The message is clear and consistent... mmmmmmmm hmmmmmmm yes....


yep.

[Haladanras]

Mmmm Hmmmmm.... yes... I see.... hmmm.

.... always posts on burglar forum first..... forgets to post on Hunter forums....... posts more on Burglar forums.... mmm hmmm yes.... I see...

mmmmm hmmm.... yes I think im getting the message..... Yes I think I understand. The message is clear and consistent... mmmmmmmm hmmmmmmm yes....


yep.

Dude just don't. I've checked your posts and you have more hunter QQ posts in the other forums than you have in hunter forums.
You gotta understand this thread is about burglar improvements and lots of good idea there. If u have a burglar or if you want to see changes in burglar class please go ahead if not GOWAI

[Cliford]

bla bla bla

Go Away.

[Yourpointman]

Kelsan,

Was hoping that you could clear up a question that some fellow burgs and I have regarding our stealth level. With the removal of the 2/4/6 Moors Armour Set Bonus it appears we have lost 4 points of stealth. Where before we could max to 13 using gear and traits it looks like we can only get to 9 stealth now. Is this the case? If this is not the case and we retain the ability to acquire level 13 stealth...where do we see that. Right now the best we can count is 9.

If our stealth has been nerfed, why? For a stealth class that can be seen by the enemy as well as being chased by pets and tracked through hips...its pretty frustrating already.

Best Of Luck ..as the new Burg Dev.

Seldomseen
Brandywine

[Kelsan]

Kelsan,

Was hoping that you could clear up a question that some fellow burgs and I have regarding our stealth level. With the removal of the 2/4/6 Moors Armour Set Bonus it appears we have lost 4 points of stealth. Where before we could max to 13 using gear and traits it looks like we can only get to 9 stealth now. Is this the case? If this is not the case and we retain the ability to acquire level 13 stealth...where do we see that. Right now the best we can count is 9.

If our stealth has been nerfed, why? For a stealth class that can be seen by the enemy as well as being chased by pets and tracked through hips...its pretty frustrating already.

Best Of Luck ..as the new Burg Dev.

Seldomseen
Brandywine

No intentional nerfs were made to the Burglar's Stealth Level, but alterations in itemization may have reduced access.

As for being detected while in HiPS... that is a bug. Pet AI and the interaction with HiPS/Disappear has always been problematic and we're trying to address it.

[Sezneg]

No intentional nerfs were made to the Burglar's Stealth Level, but alterations in itemization may have reduced access.

As for being detected while in HiPS... that is a bug. Pet AI and the interaction with HiPS/Disappear has always been problematic and we're trying to address it.

Do you consider a distinction between pet detection and being tracked for this statement? Is tracking working through HIPS considered proper functionality?

[Kelsan]

Do you consider a distinction between pet detection and being tracked for this statement? Is tracking working through HIPS considered proper functionality?

Tracking that allows 'Stealth' detection is WAI, outside of the initial 10s buff gained when activating HiPS/Disappear. During that initial period, the target should functionally be removed from detection.

If tracking allows the player to see the target during the first 10s of HiPS/Disappear, I would classify that as a bug.

Additionally, Stealth detection on tracking skills is probably something we need to investigate.

[Rhedry]

Tracking that allows 'Stealth' detection is WAI, outside of the initial 10s buff gained when activating HiPS/Disappear. During that initial period, the target should functionally be removed from detection.

If tracking allows the player to see the target during the first 10s of HiPS/Disappear, I would classify that as a bug.

Additionally, Stealth detection on tracking skills is probably something we need to investigate.

I have tracked plenty of Burgs prior to the 10s being up... and the same has happened to me by Hunters. I would say it's closer to 5s immunity rather than 10s.

Worse then that is the ridiculousness of LM/Weaver pets not resetting once HiPS/Disappear is used.

[skadoink]

Tracking that allows 'Stealth' detection is WAI, outside of the initial 10s buff gained when activating HiPS/Disappear. During that initial period, the target should functionally be removed from detection.

If tracking allows the player to see the target during the first 10s of HiPS/Disappear, I would classify that as a bug.

Additionally, Stealth detection on tracking skills is probably something we need to investigate.

There's another bug that still sometimes rears it's head, but I've never been completely sure as to the circumstances required. I _think_ it has something to do with dots ticking while hips'd. I've seen mobs that I have previously been in combat before hipsing, suddenly re-engage, even when well outside of aggro radius, seemingly from a dot that damaged within the hips period.

[BrittainTheCommie]

It's an incredibly strong statement made by Kelsan but it's easy to get lost in the words used and run with it. Almost as strong as Orion's position that farming should be considered cheating and bannable.

There is, without a doubt, a brief (2-3s) window that prevents a player from targeting a tracked target but there is no window that prevents a player from tracking a target.

I presume further clarification on the matter is necessary: I - Should a player be able to track a target, during a 10s HiPS window? II - And/or Should a player be able to detect/target a trackedplayer, during a 10s HiPS window?

Anyhow, I'm not really sure this is the correct thread for the discussion and frankly, after 7 years, while it may be considered a bug, we've done fine with it WAI (working as is).

[Kelsan]

I presume further clarification on the matter is necessary: I - Should a player be able to track a target, during a 10s HiPS window? II - And/or Should a player be able to detect/target a trackedplayer, during a 10s HiPS window?

I - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear,you should not be able to track the burg/warg
II - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear, you should not be able to detect or target the burg/warg

[skadoink]

Back on topic:

Others have already mentioned worth aspects such as: FMs, animation delays for some skills and survivability. So I'd like to put forward some others (except for survivability as it is SO important!)

1. Survivability, esp vs aoe's. Perhaps a toggle skill 'Comeback' with long cooldown that has a selfbuff of trigger, hit for more than 70% of max morale, effect +50% morale heal that takes place after the hit, but before defeat is calculated, thus preventing defeat.

2. Allow us to change stances in combat.

3. Suggest a skill that consumes a trick and causes a dot

4. Allow a mounted trick that can be used in combat


Despite me suggesting 2 new skills up there, in general I would like more skill consolidation and removal of redundant skills to clean up my toolbars!

[Sezneg]

I - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear,you should not be able to track the burg/warg
II - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear, you should not be able to detect or target the burg/warg

Are you flexible on these numbers?

And going more to the core of the issue; HOW good of an escape skill do you want HIPS to be? The pet bug is annoying, and should go away ASAP. Tracking is a more delicate issue. Tracking the way you describe it (with 10 seconds of TRACKING immunity) would turn this into a 100% escape opportunity, when coupled with the ability to clear debuffs and most DoTs on use.

However, removing the ability to clear effects on use (replacing that old set bonus so that the gear can't be kept for a hot-swap set, or simply disabling armor hot-swapping), I'm much more comfortable with a 10 second tracking immunity, as there is a much higher chance that stealth will be broken.

[Mithrad]

Since one of the recent topics on this thread is Hide in Plain Sight, one action that has bugged me since the previous update is that when a burglar in Mischief stance uses the skill, he is immediately taken out of stealth because Mischief no longer toggles off when the skill is used. Is this working as intended? I've "bugged" this a couple of times.

[ifreborn1]

I - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear,you should not be able to track the burg/warg
II - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear, you should not be able to detect or target the burg/warg

Ok I like what I am hearing and would like to expand on this area with legacies.


If we were to loose skills and have skills combined here are 2 that should be lost.

Well-placed: skill could just be caned and no one would even notice it or care. most would welcome it.

Location is Everything: Should be combined with AIM and retain the 1 min cool down


if these 2 skills were lost it would open up 2 legacies, so back to stealth. I think we would all like ways of improving stealth and extending its functionality.

one legacy could be used to extend the HiPS immunity and run speed 8-10 second.

the other could be used to reduce tracking range. This legacy that could add perceived range based on a hard number or % increase. Say track range is 40m. if you have this legacy when you were tracked at say 25m it could add up to 20m to your perceived range and thus make you undetectable from that range. where as someone without it would be detectable.

just a variety of build options and adding a risk reward mechanic to when someone pops their track. Do you wait 10 second or 20 does this burg have the added ability or not? Also if we maintain the 5 min min cool down of stealth and wargs have access to 3 min, this would be a way of differentiation our abilities and drawing distinction. We lack the sprint the extra time and range provides us similar functionality with different mechanics. WIN WIN!

[Sezneg]

(removed to avoid thread derail)

[Pasoth]

I - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear,you should not be able to track the burg/warg
II - During the 10s window of HiPS/Disappear, you should not be able to detect or target the burg/warg

That would be a nice fix

Are you flexible on these numbers?

And going more to the core of the issue; HOW good of an escape skill do you want HIPS to be? The pet bug is annoying, and should go away ASAP. Tracking is a more delicate issue. Tracking the way you describe it (with 10 seconds of TRACKING immunity) would turn this into a 100% escape opportunity, when coupled with the ability to clear debuffs and most DoTs on use.

However, removing the ability to clear effects on use (replacing that old set bonus so that the gear can't be kept for a hot-swap set, or simply disabling armor hot-swapping), I'm much more comfortable with a 10 second tracking immunity, as there is a much higher chance that stealth will be broken.

The pre audacity set with bonus HIPS clears negative effects is no longer available, although there are probably quite a few burgs who have it hoarded. I personally wouldn't be against the breaking of that particular set bonus, as I don't have it. I am sure there are others who would disagree thou.

Without that set HIPS has about a 5% escape opportunity currently in my opinion, assuming one doesn't bleed out, or explode before it goes off. Even less against an active spider pet.

A never surrender style heal that Skadoink suggested or a Massive ICMR boost attached to HIPS would allow for more offensive use of HIPS. Similar to weaver burrow full heal.

Something along the lines of:

HIPS provides a 10000 morale ICMR boost for 60 seconds. 150 morale a second, with a qualifier of expiring 10 seconds after HIPS 10s duration ends and combat drops, for a maximum of a 20s heal(3k heal) if no longer in combat and lasting the entire minute if combat state remains. That is not dissimilar from stopping and eating some food and would allow for a much more aggressive use of HIPS, and give a nice survivability boost for Burgs to continue fighting.

ON a trait and a scaling % instead of a solid number. So it doesn't break HIPS in pve and scales properly for future content.

[Sezneg]

That would be a nice fix



The pre audacity set with bonus HIPS clears negative effects is no longer available, although there are probably quite a few burgs who have it hoarded. I personally wouldn't be against the breaking of that particular set bonus, as I don't have it. I am sure there are others who would disagree thou.

Without that set HIPS has about a 5% escape opportunity currently in my opinion, assuming one doesn't bleed out, or explode before it goes off. Even less against an active spider pet.

A never surrender style heal that Skadoink suggested or a Massive ICMR boost attached to HIPS would allow for more offensive use of HIPS. Similar to weaver burrow full heal.

Something along the lines of:

HIPS provides a 10000 morale ICMR boost for 60 seconds. 150 morale a second, with a qualifier of expiring 10 seconds after HIPS 10s duration ends and combat drops, for a maximum of a 20s heal(3k heal) if no longer in combat and lasting the entire minute if combat state remains. That is not dissimilar from stopping and eating some food and would allow for a much more aggressive use of HIPS, and give a nice survivability boost for Burgs to continue fighting.

ON a trait and a scaling % instead of a solid number. So it doesn't break HIPS in pve and scales properly for future content.

Insane HIPS survival rate lowball number is insanely lowballed!

The spider bug is a pain to try to PREVENT at this point. I have to toggle the pet to passive before it gets an attack off, because chances are that it will reapply it's DoT (or it's secondary DoT), and break your stealth even if I get it under control in time. I certainly hope they're able to get a handle on this, but this strikes me as one of the systems bugs that tends to hang around a long time because it requires

I'm not for any further enhancements to HIPS functionality. Guaranteed escapes are not a fun pvp mechanic. There are other ways to achieve the sorts of added survivability you're after that don't have secondary effect of making an escape mechanic stronger. I don't mean to get into a debate and derail the thread... but some of these suggestions are pretty out there (extended track immunity to 20s? extended runspeed setting to 20s? That's insane).

It's not exactly a good analogue to compare it with the spider burrow trait. That's not an escape skill. In group fights, it's a forced target swap. In smaller scale/solo fights it is a fight reset button. But it is not an escape skill (especially since the brand changes, which I am happy with). Staying in the burrow long enough for a full heal is actually detrimental to your group (as you are out of the fight and unable to help anyone), and in a solo situation the other player is out of combat (if they get 21m away to break catch prey) and will ALSO heal up to full, meaning at best you can use it to restart the fight (which is useful for getting the other guy to use up his cc potions, but causes you to start the fight without your pet, which is roughly 35% of our dps output).

[ifreborn1]

Insane HIPS survival rate lowball number is insanely lowballed!

The spider bug is a pain to try to PREVENT at this point. I have to toggle the pet to passive before it gets an attack off, because chances are that it will reapply it's DoT (or it's secondary DoT), and break your stealth even if I get it under control in time. I certainly hope they're able to get a handle on this, but this strikes me as one of the systems bugs that tends to hang around a long time because it requires

I'm not for any further enhancements to HIPS functionality. Guaranteed escapes are not a fun pvp mechanic. There are other ways to achieve the sorts of added survivability you're after that don't have secondary effect of making an escape mechanic stronger. I don't mean to get into a debate and derail the thread... but some of these suggestions are pretty out there (extended track immunity to 20s? extended runspeed setting to 20s? That's insane).

It's not exactly a good analogue to compare it with the spider burrow trait. That's not an escape skill. In group fights, it's a forced target swap. In smaller scale/solo fights it is a fight reset button. But it is not an escape skill (especially since the brand changes, which I am happy with). Staying in the burrow long enough for a full heal is actually detrimental to your group (as you are out of the fight and unable to help anyone), and in a solo situation the other player is out of combat (if they get 21m away to break catch prey) and will ALSO heal up to full, meaning at best you can use it to restart the fight (which is useful for getting the other guy to use up his cc potions, but causes you to start the fight without your pet, which is roughly 35% of our dps output).

Can a rank geared spider get away from a burg at will?

yes

can a warg hit his hips and hit his sprint and get away?

yes

are speed buffs and slows of some classes used as better escape skill then "escape skill"?

yes

should burgs skills work to the same level as the above examples and back to a level they worked for years in the past.

yes

[ifreborn1]

A big topic of the past was in combat stance swapping. Do we care about this? Kind of odd being the only class in the game with no effective way of stance dancing?

[BrittainTheCommie]

A big topic of the past was in combat stance swapping. Do we care about this? Kind of odd being the only class in the game with no effective way of stance dancing?

And it's a huge issue that creates a tremendous imbalance combating those classes, on both a PvE and PvMP level, that can stance dance: Minstrel/Wrdn and to some degree, a Champ. It's this imbalance that I think Turbine is looking to address.

In addition, I don't think dance stancing would really do much to improve our class. We're already bypassing mechanics to gain an edge and/or be on par (Addle+/Aim+).

[BrittainTheCommie]

I'm not for any further enhancements to HIPS functionality. Guaranteed escapes are not a fun pvp mechanic. There are other ways to achieve the sorts of added survivability you're after that don't have secondary effect of making an escape mechanic stronger. I don't mean to get into a debate and derail the thread... but some of these suggestions are pretty out there (extended track immunity to 20s? extended runspeed setting to 20s? That's insane).

And to be fair, do your really think Kelsan needs you to point out the ludicrous suggestions?

If I remember correctly, Kelsan and Orion were the guys behind RoR PvMP and I think they did a pretty great job up to U10 (which I presume development time didn't allow them to make the adjustments they need).

Also, I'm sure the Burglar is the last class you need to worry about in a PvMP environment. The Wrdn/LMs/Minis could certainly use your input.

Can we just focus on the development of the class?

[Pasoth]

Insane HIPS survival rate lowball number is insanely lowballed!

The spider bug is a pain to try to PREVENT at this point.

There are more spiders in the moors than yourself, I doubt many others trouble themselves to stop a pet chasing.

Guaranteed escapes are not a fun pvp mechanic. There are other ways to achieve the sorts of added survivability you're after that don't have secondary effect of making an escape mechanic stronger. I don't mean to get into a debate and derail the thread... but some of these suggestions are pretty out there (extended track immunity to 20s? extended runspeed setting to 20s? That's insane).

Agreed on Guaranteed escapes and not what I suggested at all. I didn't mention extending the track immunity at all. Having it work to the 10s it is supposed to would be nice thou. Hips = instant track and found currently. I also didn't suggest increasing the runspeed duration beyond the original 10s.

It's not exactly a good analogue to compare it with the spider burrow trait. That's not an escape skill. In group fights, it's a forced target swap. In smaller scale/solo fights it is a fight reset button. But it is not an escape skill (especially since the brand changes, which I am happy with). Staying in the burrow long enough for a full heal is actually detrimental to your group (as you are out of the fight and unable to help anyone), and in a solo situation the other player is out of combat (if they get 21m away to break catch prey) and will ALSO heal up to full, meaning at best you can use it to restart the fight (which is useful for getting the other guy to use up his cc potions, but causes you to start the fight without your pet, which is roughly 35% of our dps output).

Which is basically what my suggestion was. A force target swap where if you drop combat you lose the regen advantage. So it was Hips.. run get 20s of heal, stay in combat get full duration of heal and a chance to go on battling(by this I mean actively break stealth and keep fighting, not run off) as opposed to standing on the sidelines waiting to regen. If combat was dropped directly after hips, then it would be 10s of heal, combat state doesn't drop when you HIPS in the moors. Yes many spiders use full burrow heal as an escape. Pop up hit WtE, run to rez.

[Yourpointman]

No intentional nerfs were made to the Burglar's Stealth Level, but alterations in itemization may have reduced access.

As for being detected while in HiPS... that is a bug. Pet AI and the interaction with HiPS/Disappear has always been problematic and we're trying to address it.

Kelsan,

I am pretty sure i speak for most of the burgs who have posted on this forum when I say that we appreciate "anyone" in the dev team being interested in improving the burg class. I appreciate that you are dealing with a large number of frustrated players out there as well, players who have put a lot of time and effort into their burgs. I hope that you don't get bogged down in the complexities of balancing wants and needs and stick with the basics of the class.... namely stealth, burst dps,
control skills, escape and survival skills.

I could be off here but as a "stealth" class, we deserve at least "access" to the ability to cap our stealth rather than having it reduced by unintended side-effects of armour set bonus reductions. Could you please address the basic issue of our stealth level...

a. Due to restricted access, has our stealth level been reduced...we can only count 9 rather than the previous 13

b. If this "reduced access" to stealth has occurred, when and how will it be addressed to restore us at least to pre-update stealth levels?

Respects,
Seldomseen
Brandywine

[Lao10]

Hi Kelsan !

Firstly, I have followed this thread with great enthusiasm, i would like to commend your efforts but with the class development and your forums post count.

What i would like to ask if do you actually play the burglar, more specifically, all 3 trait lines? DO you have any suprises in store, by that i mean niggley things that havent exactly been at the front of everyones mind but that you have identified?