I grow weary from all the negativity.

[Thorwyn99]

What is not fine is some peoples' 'logic' that "if the guys liking content X are few, then we should reduce content X". This is weird circular thinking and only creates a negative feedback, starting a self-feeded 'spiral' of changes when each step drives the next in the same direction, in a very self-sufficient manner. Kinda like bureaucracy And it is also an example of how the game can 'shape' its playerbase.
For me personally, something like this happening is an indication that the resources are not enough and then of course you start cutting the extra weight from where it will hurt less. I hope this is not the reason for what we are observing recently.

Resources are never enough but i think a problem Turbine has since the WB take over is that they need to make the resources they request plausible to someone higher.
It's just a hard sell if the biggest resource hog has the fewest players using it.

[Almagnus1]

While Sapience could have mentioned why he dismissed the post it was quite clearly because of the disregard for Dev in question being shown in it, which i'm actually pretty convinced that wasn't really the intention of the poster, nor did he realize it.
You gotta realize too though that devs are not community specialists they may take such stuff personal even if not said in malice, i can see why Sapience draws the line pretty early.
I figure he used the post as example of feedback being dismissed.

From my perspective, a lot of the frustration aimed at the devs come when their actions send the message that I care more about X than they do.

I can understand it if X is something completely trivial, or a minor part of the game, but when X is the captain class, it generates A LOT of frustration, and that is hard for me to control appropriately, especially when speaking about topics that caused it.

Getting back to the fate changes with the captain class - when the actions of a dev are sending the signal that the Excel spreadsheet is in more control of the changes towards the class rather than the dev actively putting thought into it, it sends the signal (to me at least) that the dev just doesn't care. I would seriously hope that is not the case, but the general lack of communication we receive from the devs doesn't help the negative attitude.

What **REALLY** makes tempers flare is when players see one of the longest running issues with a class fixed - like seeing the captain power problems were completely resolved with the first Bullroarer Patch for U10 Pt2 - only to see one of the best things to happen to the class in forever slowly dismantled. It's like the devs are wailing on a nerve with a sledgehammer, and completely oblivious to it. Again, I would hope that's not the case, but it's how its coming across.

[Aohh]

While Sapience could have mentioned why he dismissed the post it was quite clearly because of the disregard for Dev in question being shown in it, which i'm actually pretty convinced that wasn't really the intention of the poster, nor did he realize it.
You gotta realize too though that devs are not community specialists they may take such stuff personal even if not said in malice, i can see why Sapience draws the line pretty early.
I figure he used the post as example of feedback being dismissed.

That's exactly what I reproach. Drawing the line too early on one hand, drawing the line upon such superficial criteria on other hand.
-
As for the negativity, since we are in a communication setting, its source is shared by both parties. My point was that if one party is negative, then the other one can still salvage the communication and extract positives aspects out of it.
I don't see any step taken in that way.
Worse, I feel that said negativity has been heavily fed by the development team due to how they handled the communication.
Negativity does not come overnight, you reap what you saw.

So what the development should do from now on in my opinion?
1) Caring less about the wrapping and caring more about the deep message embedded in a comment which has a poor or a venomous form.
2) Give clear responses such as the one given for the Pvmp maps ( that one is very clear: never). So far many still have no ideas why the game has taken such directions in term of difficulty and loot distribution mostly. Having the team jumping and tell ' we clearly made those changes in order to achieve such X goal' would help. Nah instead we have the announcement that the Durchest and FAs incidents were bugs a posteriori. And zero input about how the content is too easy.

Until then expect deserved negativity.

[Legonist]

That's exactly what I reproach. Drawing the line too early on one hand, drawing the line upon such superficial criteria on other hand.
-
As for the negativity, since we are in a communication setting, its source is shared by both parties. My point was that if one party is negative, then the other one can still salvage the communication and extract positives aspects out of it.
I don't see any step taken in that way.
Worse, I feel that said negativity has been heavily fed by the development team due to how they handled the communication.
Negativity does not come overnight, you reap what you saw.

I agree with pretty much all of what you said here. I look at it as if there is a negative comment that unless it is just a troll that comment is still important, most of the time they are saying something is wrong and should be fixed or they will continue to be displeased with the game. If the devs aren't in touch with the community then they say they aren't in touch, sugar coating it isn't going to help the game in fact it is going to hurt it by in this case giving the devs a false sense of how the community feels how they are viewed by the community in action and interaction.

As for you reap what you sow it isn't very hard to see trend of negativity, worry and complaints that have been active in the forums. I go to general discussion, hunter section, helms deep and PVMP and i see that the most viewed and posted threads are complaints, discussion and speculation about issues of the game, lack of dev interaction, lack of changes/content and in general a worry about the direction of the game. Turbine could have fairly easily pointed the forums in a move positive direction by being more in-tune with the community by making a post here and there giving people assurance that they care about what their player base is talking about (even if it is negative) and then shift it to how to make the game even better, you reap what you sow and if you don't sow that much you aren't gonna get what you want (the truth hurts but it is helpful if you accept it).

This post is in general a summery of the forums in its current state, most all threads are helpful in one way or the other but most of the big threads in the larger sections tend to be what i mentioned above, which can be taken as negative threads but shouldn't because you can take that and use it to make the game better and please the community so they become more "positive". If there is little positive to talk about you aren't going to get positive feedback and threads.

[NukeTheLag]

Not angry or upset in any way. Just being really honest. That may be coming across as blunt or terse, but it's really just 0 sugar coating. And calling a dev or their actions stupid, as I've said before, is just not going to get you anywhere. I just stop reading when the insults start.

What I see as the REAL issue, is laziness. People don't bother to look. They just post up a new complaint in general and off they go. Yes I've said this a million times and it's just as true today as every other time. Yes I know the argument of getting as many eyes on it as possible, but that's just a simple admission of attention seeking and any parent can tell you the predictable outcome of that type of behavior.

So I gather we can't call a dev stupid but we can call them lazy and childish?

[Thorwyn99]

So what the development should do from now on in my opinion?
1) Caring less about the wrapping and caring more about the deep message embedded in a comment which has a poor or a venomous form.
2) Give clear responses such as the one given for the Pvmp maps ( that one is very clear: never). So far many still have no ideas why the game has taken such directions in term of difficulty and loot distribution mostly. Having the team jumping and tell ' we clearly made those changes in order to achieve such X goal' would help. Nah instead we have the announcement that the Durchest and FAs incidents were bugs a posteriori. And zero input about how the content is too easy.

Until then expect deserved negativity.

1) I can only speak from my experience, and i deal a lot with in house "customers", the wrapping does matter.
I'm personally much more inclined to give your suggestion a fair chance if it's put nice and fairly than if you're being an idiot about it. In the end we're all just human.

2) I agree here I'd rather have a blunt but honest answer than talking around the issue. I'd take the it's a bug answer for durchest, but the same thing happened a second time so that doesn't paint a great picture. I'd really like to know how the same bug slipped through the net a second time.

[MarkoftheRealm]

That's exactly what I reproach. Drawing the line too early on one hand, drawing the line upon such superficial criteria on other hand.
-
1) Caring less about the wrapping and caring more about the deep message embedded in a comment which has a poor or a venomous form.

It's like the old art vs. pornography debate. I know clearly the difference between the two, so my judgment should stand for everyone else as well.

Everyone has a different line where respectful exchange shades into disrespectful. In cases of blatant negativity and disrespect, many of us would agree. But, I would argue, in this kind of medium, where nobody can see facial expressions or hear intonation, the gray area is even wider; something I read as horrendously disrespectful, you could see as not disrespectful but just awkwardly worded. When is sarcasm simply camouflage for disrespect? A forum moderator, Sapience here, is the final arbiter on the line. I feel that Sapience is sometimes overly-liberal in allowing some pretty vicious personal attacks back and forth to go on, but I feel that's better than squelching debate too early and it also allows us the chance to try to re-direct the exchange on our own as adults. Self-policing is always better than authoritarianism.

I agree that it's actually in Turbine's best interest to wade through the dross of a post in case there's a gold nugget somewhere within it. It's quite possible (given the medium, as I said above) that without the context of the full post, the intention is misinterpreted in the first few sentences, perhaps the poster used a word that is loaded for Sapience unknowingly. Certainly there'll be posts that are just a pure midden heap to the core and he'll have to go take a shower after reading just to feel clean again. I've read some posts on here that made me feel that need as well. But hey, that's why he gets paid the big bucks!

One issue I wanted to address is this notion that just because something has been said once by a dev or Sapience or some other blue name that it doesn't need repeating. Obviously, short-term items like maintenance down-times don't need repeating even (or especially) to the 30 people who start new threads asking. But other messages--like "we're still working on that bug" or "we're aware of your concerns in this area and are still working on a remedy" or even "we tried really hard to address issue x, but we find fixing it as of now to be unfeasible"--grow stale and need to be refreshed every once in a while. It's legitimate to wonder: "Is Turbine still working on it or have they scrapped the issue without telling us?" It's like being a spouse and believing that because you said "I love you" on your wedding day that it doesn't ever need repeating. Things like the 20 Questions and Twitter Dev convo go a long ways towards helping out and I like that many of the answers weren't vague or just hedging, even when it was not necessarily an answer people wanted to hear. This kind of two-way conversation needs to be more consistent however, not sporadic. I have no doubt that Turbine values our input and feedback, or else there wouldn't be Palantir, Bullroarer, the new Council, Dev chats, 20 Questions, etc. Sometimes I think that Turbine forgets we need their feedback just as badly.

[whheydt]

From my perspective, a lot of the frustration aimed at the devs come when their actions send the message that I care more about X than they do.

I can understand it if X is something completely trivial, or a minor part of the game, but when X is the captain class, it generates A LOT of frustration, and that is hard for me to control appropriately, especially when speaking about topics that caused it.

I don't see why in the least it should be surprising that individuals care about specific features more than devs that have to consider the effects on the whole game do.

While an individual will care about what changes are made, or he wishes would be made, to particular class, the devs have to consider how such changes fit into a larger picture, including new material being developed that the players are going to be completely ignorant of.

[Teneriel]

For example, I don't like butternut squash. I can't tell you why, I'm not entirely sure. It might be a texture thing. But I do like Yellow and Italian Squash. So I don't dislike all squash, just butternut. Maybe I just haven't had Butternut prepared in a way that appeals to me? Maybe someone could make a recommendation. But I do wish more restaurants I go to would offer an option other than just butternut or at least prepare it differently.

I don't really like any squash, so I'm not the best person to answer this question, but everything is better as a pie, right? So maybe these would be good (one savory, two sweet):

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/fo...ash-Pie-236312

http://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/butternut-squash-pie

http://www.food.com/recipe/butternut-squash-pie-104569

I haven't tried any of those recipes (yet!), but I would guess that the sweet pies are very similar to pumpkin.

[Legonist]

sometimes i think that turbine forgets we need their feedback just as badly.

[Almagnus1]

And I thought it was going to say "One does not simply give feedback!"

Perhaps followed by some witty remark about going for a walk from Rohan to Mout Doom...

Wait, can't simply do that.....

[Bethup]

Not angry or upset in any way. Just being really honest. That may be coming across as blunt or terse, but it's really just 0 sugar coating. And calling a dev or their actions stupid, as I've said before, is just not going to get you anywhere. I just stop reading when the insults start.

I would love to give you guys some Helm's Deep info, but unfortunately I cannot. Not that I don't have any (I do know some juicy things!), only that we have a timetable for releasing info and we're just not there yet. I don't even want to give a "Soon" version because I know that just upsets a certain group (mostly those that haven't realized there is a method to that madness, but still). I will simply say that it will come later than you want it to.

Ouch. Better mind my Ps and Qs.

[Brona402]

So I gather we can't call a dev stupid but we can call them lazy and childish?

Low intensity/indirect insults for everyone! Three cheers for Sapience, folks.

[Karilis]

I am one known to complain about the game. Heck! You can even ask my kin members or close personal friends. But I complain about the good parts of the gaming turning into the bad parts and waste of my money. And yes I just used the word "money". Especially since I have been paying for 1 account since sept. 2007 and 2 accounts since nov. 2008. (on an off there with the second account). But just using that as a reference that I put a lot of money into this game. I am sorry to say this, but one major thing turbine has messed up on, was the rest experience you got from being a subscriber.. It use to add up to a large amount, about a level and a half worth. (only from killing monsters) Now it's used at 30% of the level to be good for the killing and quests, but the sad thing is... you only get that once a day. Which they are using this as a trick for you to log in everyday. For someone like me with work and not as much time, I can only log in for about 2-3 days a week and that is on the weekends.. So turbine has really screwed up that. The game itself, I love. Dearly, it is one of my favorite, the RP, it's significance. It originality and such are what kicked it off most for me! But otherwise, I could not say I'm a lotro fan boy, only because turbine takes good parts of the game and ruins them... And yes there are many, many, many instances where they have done that. Just look around the forums.. But for being a complainer, I am also a lotro lover, as you see in my post I have said about three times already..

[Littlemew]

If a person doesn't like something about the game, this is the only place to voice their displeasure. Most of the people who are happy with the game are not here, they are playing it!

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

I guess on that note, Sapience if you followed this perhaps you could answer: Do you know, and could you tell us, when the Symbol bug was identified? If it was identified before the update went live was there a discussion about fixing it before or after the update went live? On the flip side if there wasn't a discussion was this something that just slipped through the cracks? and if so are you guys trying anything to prevent something similair from happening again?

I took the liberty to reorder your comments a bit.
What the above comment shows is a complete lack of knowledge about the history of said "bug".

Yet, you feel qualified to state:

Look at your revised question and then realize how incredibly loaded it is. You, basically, up front indicate that everything about it was a total failure without any desire to actually obtain information about the failure process. Your question makes it clear that you aren't interested in information you want some sort of massive mea culpa paen to your conscious. Seriously your revised question is nothing more than "Please confirm that you are in fact massive screw up expletive failures so that I can hold it against you."

If you would be so kind as to follow RicardoFurriels link above, you might get some kind of idea as to what the question hints at. Hint: The failure process is obvious, so it doesn't need to be answered. It needs to be ACKNOWLEDGED.

HAND,
SNy

[commodore1]

What I see as the REAL issue, is laziness.

Sry didn't read anymore of your post. nothing gets read after the first insult, correct?

[Sapience]

Some people seem to want this thread closed. As usual they are the very people who do not like facts and honest answers, they demand something other than the truth. They wish validation for their conspiracy theories, rhetoric, or simply trolling. It won't be forthcoming. However, I'd encourage those to review the community guidelines because as of this post, the question of the first age drop bug is over (it was over the first time we answered it, and the second, and the couple of times answered in this thread). Pay careful attention to the guidelines on following the directions of Turbine staff.

Move the topic along.

[hisoka-thorongil]

Some people seem to want this thread closed. As usual they are the very people who do not like facts and honest answers, they demand something other than the truth. They wish validation for their conspiracy theories, rhetoric, or simply trolling. It won't be forthcoming. However, I'd encourage those to review the community guidelines because as of this post, the question of the first age drop bug is over (it was over the first time we answered it, and the second, and the couple of times answered in this thread). Pay careful attention to the guidelines on following the directions of Turbine staff.

Move the topic along.

Your belittling of the 'conspiracy theorists' doesn't at all seem appropriate. If you think a portion of the community that wants honest communication between game company and subsequent game community are somehow trolls or conspiracy theorists, then you should most certainly take another look at the ones of whom your demonizing.

At the heart of the recent hubbub, most, if not all, players who play this game want communication and respect between and from Turbine. You and your fellow staff have not been doing so, thus you have angry posters wanting change, more communication(gasp!), and acknowledgment of key, important issues concerning the game, issues that could spell the end of Lotro in one way or the other.

Of course, there are plenty of trolls posting repeated topics, blatant troll posts, etc., but it seems to me that if anything at all negative, i.e. not rubbing Turbine's back-side, is posted, it is ignored, banned, what have you. For me, it's baffling as to why you, Sapience, as both a human being and a game company employee refuses to post responses to the very players who help fund your paycheck. Unless, of course, you cannot say anything besides 'soon' or what not. If this is the case, it is a travesty that you must be haunted by at the long hours of night, for I could not live with myself not being able to serve the player-base in the most ethical manner possible.

Hopefully I have not come off as a demon from the depths to you, and I also hope you read this whole post, as I deem it worthy of your time, else I wouldn't have spent the time on you, nor the game I used to immensely enjoy.

[TheCrossbow]

Sry didn't read anymore of your post. nothing gets read after the first insult, correct?

Sorry, but...

If Sapience has the time to do all that he does in a day - posting information in a variety of locations and in several different languages - but someone doesn't bother to take the time to read the information that is published... and then turns around and demands that Sapience answer a question he has already answered 10 times in 3 different languages... then that person is indeed lazy.

And, there are far too many people right in this very thread who are demanding things from Sapience/Turbine/Devs that clearly (IMHO) do not deserve any attention. Why? Because, if you want to be worthy of attention, you need to learn to engage in a respectful way. I always see people saying, "Well, respect needs to be earned." To some extent that is true, but there is a level of respect that all people deserve. As someone who works with people who have special needs, I absolutely know this to be true... because if I violate the basic respect and dignity they are still entitled to, I could be fired and possibly sued.

Sapience says he wants our feedback, yet he says he ignores it when we give it to him. I'm puzzled at Sapience's reactions because they are coming across as trollish and inflammatory in this thread.

No. Everything Sapience has responded with has been very generous, in my book.

There is a huge difference between feedback that is constructive and helpful... and feedback that is simply complaining or otherwise not intended to be helpful.

The failure process is obvious, so it doesn't need to be answered. It needs to be ACKNOWLEDGED.

Actually, there is no real reason for them to acknowledge failure other than to a very few people. If I may point you to a president to whom the question was repeatedly asked "Is there anything you regret? Are their any failures you want to acknowledge?"
Why didn't he respond? Because there is no need to respond. It is a waste of time to spend time acknowledging every failure. The "failure" is obvious. Why spend more time going around "acknowledging the failure" when you can better spend the time fixing the problem?

Good grief!

[DelgonTheWise]

Your belittling of the 'conspiracy theorists' doesn't at all seem appropriate. If you think a portion of the community that wants honest communication between game company and subsequent game community are somehow trolls or conspiracy theorists, then you should most certainly take another look at the ones of whom your demonizing.

I have my criticisms of Turbine, but not on this one. In general, if the forum posts say "Turbine intentionally introduced a bug in X for nefarious purposes and evil profitteering and the like", as has happened a number of times, it doesn't call for any answer from Turbine. If Turbine does choose to answer, saying "really, it was just a bug", it doesn't call for future answers or discussion on their part... There have been too many such discussions, IMHO of course. It is not a useful line of inquiry.

Mind you, a thread about the evils of "negativity" is liable to become a catch-all for, well, negativity. So this thread was likely never really destined for becoming a positive force on the whole...

[TheCrossbow]

Your belittling of the 'conspiracy theorists' doesn't at all seem appropriate. If you think a portion of the community that wants honest communication between game company and subsequent game community are somehow trolls or conspiracy theorists, then you should most certainly take another look at the ones of whom your demonizing.

At the heart of the recent hubbub, most, if not all, players who play this game want communication and respect between and from Turbine. You and your fellow staff have not been doing so, thus you have angry posters wanting change, more communication(gasp!), and acknowledgment of key, important issues concerning the game, issues that could spell the end of Lotro in one way or the other.

Of course, there are plenty of trolls posting repeated topics, blatant troll posts, etc., but it seems to me that if anything at all negative, i.e. not rubbing Turbine's back-side, is posted, it is ignored, banned, what have you. For me, it's baffling as to why you, Sapience, as both a human being and a game company employee refuses to post responses to the very players who help fund your paycheck. Unless, of course, you cannot say anything besides 'soon' or what not. If this is the case, it is a travesty that you must be haunted by at the long hours of night, for I could not live with myself not being able to serve the player-base in the most ethical manner possible.

Hopefully I have not come off as a demon from the depths to you, and I also hope you read this whole post, as I deem it worthy of your time, else I wouldn't have spent the time on you, nor the game I used to immensely enjoy.

If I may, you have a point with your post, but it is drowned out by a complete lack of understanding about the people Sapience is referencing as "conspiracy theorists". The people he is talking about are the people who, even when they get an answer, it is never enough.

Similarly, it is NOT the job of anyone at Turbine (other than perhaps Sapience) to engage with and communicate with the players. Many companies prefer designate one person to be the spokesperson for the company who is responsible to distributing information to the public and/or communicating with the public as often as is necessary to fulfill the need for some transparency without divulging too much information that would end up giving away necessary secrets.

The problem is that everyone's definition of "enough communication" is completely different. And, because of that, no matter how much Sapience responds to questions, it will never be enough for some people. And, frankly, he should only really be communicating when he has information to share. Anything beyond that is his call.

[hisoka-thorongil]

If I may, you have a point with your post, but it is drowned out by a complete lack of understanding about the people Sapience is referencing as "conspiracy theorists". The people he is talking about are the people who, even when they get an answer, it is never enough.

The problem is that everyone's definition of "enough communication" is completely different. And, because of that, no matter how much Sapience responds to questions, it will never be enough for some people. And, frankly, he should only really be communicating when he has information to share. Anything beyond that is his call.

The 'never enough' people are probably still questioning because the few responses that are given are either sketchy or murky to the point that further doubt a probably outcome.

And, if Sapience's job is to share information he does indeed posses, then he's not doing a very admirable job.

[indiramourn]

Avoiding the forums of a game you love is probably a good idea. They are a place for people to come and complain, mostly. I also love LoTRO. But I also respect the devs and give them the leeway to make the decisions about the direction of their game. They have put a lot of tender love and care into LoTRO and it shows everywhere. I know they love the game I love, and respect their need to make money to support their game.

[TheCrossbow]

The 'never enough' people are probably still questioning because the few responses that are given are either sketchy or murky to the point that further doubt a probably outcome.

And, if Sapience's job is to share information he does indeed posses, then he's not doing a very admirable job.

In your opinion...

I commented on another thread in a response to one of your posts... that you must not even bother reading the information that Sapience does share.

In case you have trouble finding the information Sapience has shared, there is that nice "Dev Tracker" feature. I would start there.