HD Loot List [WIP]

[Castorix]

My guardian is sitting at around 18k morale right now

This is weird for a Guardian : on my Champ in blue, I have already 22.3 K morale, without stacking Vitality everywhere (and Morale = Vitality * 3 for Champs, not 5)

[Elrantiri]

We already have this, that's what mitigation is. The problem there is that it's way to easy to max out, so it becomes a nothing stat.

The chance element is kind of the point, especially when you have time delayed casting abilities. It adds another element of usefulness to stats. It would also be ok to revise mitigation downward (IE. change the way it's affected by primary stats so it can be added as a secondary stat so it's actually worthwhile to slot gear) but that doesn't necessarily preclude resistance as a separate secondary stat.

Mitigation lowers damage from debuffs as you say, but they do nothing about other debuffs such as +x% miss, disarm, -armor and the likes. Letting resistance work as mitigation does now could open up for having resistance reduce the effect and/or duration of such debuffs.
DoTs could also have their duration lowered through resistance and thus lower the number of damage ticks.

[spelunker]

Glad to see resistance, incoming healing (and hopefully mitigations) are still a possibility to make a return.

Regarding loot distribution, some form of barter or rewards accrual seems like the best method for going after this. My half-baked concept on this is to either:

Have barter tokens drop from chests, rather than actual gear pieces, and put every gear piece in skirm camps. Running thadur would give you a chance at relics or a 'gold/silver token of thadur' (or whatever you want to name it) where the silver could be exchanged for a purple quality piece and a gold for a teal. Each instance token would only be barterable for about unique 9 pieces total (3 per main-stat, give or take), so if you wanted a specific item, you had to run that specific instance, rather than grind out the 'easiest' one for tokens that would get you anything. To prevent people who had everything they wanted from a specific instance from sitting on a pile of these tokens, or just ignoring the instance, the tokens could also be bartered for some medallions (silver quality) or a seal or 2 (for a gold quality token). The cleaner (but more dev intensive) option in this route would be to have each individual make their roll when a chest opens, and if they were to be selected by the rng to get a given quality of item, a menu could open where you pick from all the class specific rewards the instance can drop, or extra meds or a seal. This would be the way to maintain some sense of the RNG and the 'thrill' of winning loot, but ensure that if you do win, you'll be happy with what you get. A 'drop rate' on teals of 1/6 for T2C (where available) completion seems appropriate to me, with lower chances for lower tiers, or non-challenge.

OR

A more pure progression system like we have in BBs, where every completion of an instance gives you a 'point' towards loot. T1 would be worth a single point, t2 worth 2 points, and T2c worth 3 points, with 18 points allowing you to select a teal from the items available from that instance. Instances without a T2 would only require 12 points to select a gear piece. If you were looking for lower quality gear quicker, you could select an option to barter for a purple quality piece after 9 or 6 points accrued, instead. Of course as with the first idea, also allow for the selection of a currency reward if you don't want anything available from the instance.

Thoughts?

[GithlithMonaghan]

Have barter tokens drop from chests, rather than actual gear pieces, and put every gear piece in skirm camps. Running thadur would give you a chance at relics or a 'gold/silver token of thadur' (or whatever you want to name it) where the silver could be exchanged for a purple quality piece and a gold for a teal. Each instance token would only be barterable for about unique 9 pieces total (3 per main-stat, give or take), so if you wanted a specific item, you had to run that specific instance, rather than grind out the 'easiest' one for tokens that would get you anything. To prevent people who had everything they wanted from a specific instance from sitting on a pile of these tokens, or just ignoring the instance, the tokens could also be bartered for some medallions (silver quality) or a seal or 2 (for a gold quality token). The cleaner (but more dev intensive) option in this route would be to have each individual make their roll when a chest opens, and if they were to be selected by the rng to get a given quality of item, a menu could open where you pick from all the class specific rewards the instance can drop, or extra meds or a seal. This would be the way to maintain some sense of the RNG and the 'thrill' of winning loot, but ensure that if you do win, you'll be happy with what you get. A 'drop rate' on teals of 1/6 for T2C (where available) completion seems appropriate to me, with lower chances for lower tiers, or non-challenge.

OR

A more pure progression system like we have in BBs, where every completion of an instance gives you a 'point' towards loot. T1 would be worth a single point, t2 worth 2 points, and T2c worth 3 points, with 18 points allowing you to select a teal from the items available from that instance. Instances without a T2 would only require 12 points to select a gear piece. If you were looking for lower quality gear quicker, you could select an option to barter for a purple quality piece after 9 or 6 points accrued, instead. Of course as with the first idea, also allow for the selection of a currency reward if you don't want anything available from the instance.

Thoughts?

No new barter items please. It's very confusing already to have barters for almost every reputation fraction, seals, meds etc. I like random drops. But why not make a golden version of any teal item in game and put it into those instances as a very very rare drop. Could even be barterable. But of course for now helm's deep instances should be the attractive endgame. So I suppose that would only come along later on.

[q945]

This is weird for a Guardian : on my Champ in blue, I have already 22.3 K morale, without stacking Vitality everywhere (and Morale = Vitality * 3 for Champs, not 5)

I'm still not fully geared, but DPS is the new way to hold aggro and a lot of our self heal skills are tied to crits now.... I don't plan on stacking morale unless I know I'm tanking a single raid boss where my rotation will be <force taunt><force taunt><force taunt>....

[Nadrowen]

I want to thank you Verizal for the communication you're having with us, at least we feel that our feedbacks are listened by the devs.

I have question about stats but I'm not sure if it is your domain of work.
- About mitigation, clearly there is a need to change how the rating is calculated ; the caps should be much harder to reach for non tanks characters in order to require a tank in group play, dpsers should know that if they take back aggro from the tank, it might lead to their defeat.
For example my champ, back in RoR hit 63% in physical mitigation and about 35% in tactical mitigation... In HD era, while I'm not fully stuffed (jewels are almost all from 85), I hit 70% in physical mitigation and about 59% in tactical... Added to a much larger morale pool (about 50% more) than in RoR, I have no worries to offtank in raid while my traits and stuff is fully traited dps.
- I have a warden that is still lvl 86, do you know when it will switch fully to agility contribution for physical mastery? Will might contribute only to B/P and physical mitigation? At this moment, evade will be easily capped, parry should mustn't not be a problem as wardens have their self buffs, but how about block? Will there be specific pieces of loot for warden available to adress this lack of might (I guess the pieces are the same for guards, but I'm not sure about the drop rules )?
- For items stats, I know that the item level determines the stats offered, but what about the variety ? Is there any plans to enhance the number of stats and values ?

[Bhoris_they_spider]

Verizal. Do the Turbine team understand how frustrating it is for stats/itemisation to keep getting changed over and over again. Not because it is particularly hard to adapt to the changes but because it takes up so much dev time which could be much better spent actually making new and exciting content? I'm pretty sure for an equivalent amount of dev time we could have got a new raid cluster + some skirmishes etc as opposed to the class changes which (lets face it) have broken the game and are going to take the best part of a year to balance to any acceptable level. Yet more squandered dev time!

If I was able to give one message to Turbine it would be to stop tinkering with established systems (they will never be perfect) and actually focus on making new and engaging group content that will bring people back to the game.

[Vulcwen]

I just came up with an idea that might fix the RNG problems without doing away with it. Basically, put down 2 barterers somewhere, introduce a new kind of token, and allow people to barter a token for any kind of lvl 95 teal drop for something like 100 seals, than allow people to barter a piece of gear of choice for a token. This token will just be for a clearer interface so you don't have to list conversions from every piece of gear to every piece of other gear. The tokens and the new piece of gear you get should be bind on acquire I think.

[Darlgon]

I just came up with an idea that might fix the RNG problems without doing away with it. Basically, put down 2 barterers somewhere, introduce a new kind of token, and allow people to barter a token for any kind of lvl 95 teal drop for something like 100 seals, than allow people to barter a piece of gear of choice for a token. This token will just be for a clearer interface so you don't have to list conversions from every piece of gear to every piece of other gear. The tokens and the new piece of gear you get should be bind on acquire I think.

Funny, Sounds exactly like the DN/Lothlorien raids, where you got a token to take to the barterer, where you got the item you wanted back. Each slot had a token. Then they decided we needed less variety of tokens. Or, skirm raids, where, once you have harvested enough seals, you can exchange them for gear.

[Vulcwen]

Funny, Sounds exactly like the DN/Lothlorien raids, where you got a token to take to the barterer, where you got the item you wanted back. Each slot had a token. Then they decided we needed less variety of tokens. Or, skirm raids, where, once you have harvested enough seals, you can exchange them for gear.

They decided we needed less tokens, than they added more back, than removed some, and than added more. I guess, keep the tokens when it's the level cap, when level cap increases, change the barterers to only require marks and meds, and enable you to turn in the tokens for these currencies. Note that my suggestion isn't to get tokens from instances directly, and getting the tokens will have an additional cost attached to it. The idea is, you can get basically all teal gear outside raids, but if you do raids (= get seals), it's easier to get the gear you want using this barter system.

[Maegren]

thank you OP and Verizal, and everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am a relative newbie, and I learned a lot from reading this.

My own view:

This is an RPG, and so you want to maximise player choice and customisation, without imbalancing the game. You want players to be immersed, committed, invested, because then we keep coming back.

So, I disagree with the thrust of this change, which is to homogenize items, and push the choice to the trait tree. The trait tree is pay 2 gold and click click click, voila, you are changed.

I recommend you go in completely the opposite direction.

Make all items customizable, to a limited extent. So, you could add fate, or finesse, or critical defence, or incoming healing, or resistance vs poison...by adding a buff. Call them stitching, brooches, pins, buckles, studs. Each item gets one buff. Different crafts make the different buffs, so, not all scholar. Or, you could have jeweller make the buffs for jewellery - seems logical. Tiering recipes for the buffs. Buffs are constained by item level, so, no adding a cap level buff to a level 7 item.

And expand, massively expand, the range of options for the main Legendary Items. So, a legacy that gives 4,000 critical defence. Or finesse. Or incoming healing.

We want choice. We want our characters to be unique. I may choose to be a blue line hunter. But I am Maegren.

[q945]

Verizal. Do the Turbine team understand how frustrating it is for stats/itemisation to keep getting changed over and over again. Not because it is particularly hard to adapt to the changes but because it takes up so much dev time which could be much better spent actually making new and exciting content? I'm pretty sure for an equivalent amount of dev time we could have got a new raid cluster + some skirmishes etc as opposed to the class changes which (lets face it) have broken the game and are going to take the best part of a year to balance to any acceptable level. Yet more squandered dev time!

If I was able to give one message to Turbine it would be to stop tinkering with established systems (they will never be perfect) and actually focus on making new and engaging group content that will bring people back to the game.

What I don't understand is why RockX spent his time last xpac generating scaling gear and yet we see none of it this xpac. I also don't understand why itemization was passed to a new dev. Love or hate the old system it would be nice to have some consistency. Oh and all the new gear looks like it was generated out of an Excel spreadsheet using a VBscript. This is a lore rich license and yet we have some of the most generic gear names this time round.

[Macroscian]

Again, I want to thank everyone for responding with their feedback and suggestions. I want to apologize beforehand because things are going to start picking up for me again, well, now-ish, so I may not be able to respond with such detail as frequently as I would like, but I'll still be checking back to make sure to touch upon things that seem problematic or confusing.

So to touch a bit more on the balance aspect of these changes...

I realize that as it stands, many classes do not need vitality. I won't speak from a contribution standpoint, as I do want to look into things a bit more, but from a morale standpoint glass cannons are not having many issues with their survivability, and many tanks are near invincible. This is going to change. Mob damage is going to be scaled up. We want to provide a challenge for tanks with these increased morale pools, which means damage dealers and healers will also need to compensate, as rogue mobs and soloing will become a lot more dangerous to those with a lack of defensive stats (i.e. not tanks).

When it comes to the primary stat contribution and secondary stat availability, again, I do realize that many classes are approaching if not already at the stat caps. And I also realize that, based on your primary stat, it is a lot easier to hit these various caps (Guardians and block, Wardens and Evade, etc). However, this is where gear choice comes into play. Sure, a Warden may not need an Evade ring that drop some random instance. However, there may be a block ring available through reputation, enticing that player to advance there. And when I say that I want to look into contributions, it is because I do not want a tank getting 75% percent of their block through might alone, leaving dps even better off (granted they probably wouldn't be using a shield). Instead I might look to provide them with, say, 45% of their capped block, enticing them to look into other block options, and placing much more of an emphasis on the importance of stat-ing defensively (Keep in mind that all of these are examples - not actual numbers).

In regards to the various feelings on incoming healing and resistance, I do hear what you are saying, and am taking everything into consideration. As I mentioned before though, I do want to see things a bit more balanced before making any further changes, but am not above leaving options for these stats open if it seems conducive to this new system.

Just because some class like champs feel they are invincible, this can still be adjusted at class level. For hunter, unless yellow and taking away 100% of my damage output, my hunter is not invincible. Four mobs is quite common in some of the current content and I have no bubble left for my class. The team should consider removing things such as champ bubbles before adjusting the game completely for all - or hand hunters back their bubbles Before changing the mob damage output. It seems that every last one of those who post about boredom are up to their teeth with the currently best super gear. I say LET THEM be bored then. It's been same right after any content update: once you have it all, it's very easy. I know some super gamers on every server can solo t2 95 instances but that does not mean the 99% can.

[Castorix]

Just because some class like champs feel they are invincible, this can still be adjusted at class level. For hunter, unless yellow and taking away 100% of my damage output, my hunter is not invincible. Four mobs is quite common in some of the current content and I have no bubble left for my class. The team should consider removing things such as champ bubbles before adjusting the game completely for all

The big bubble has been removed on Champs. And Hunters have a bubble since RoR (although small)
And as I said in another thread, with my Hunter, new 95, with still a 85 LI, I could do the whole Necro skraid, except the boss.
It was unthinkable do to that with a Hunter before.

[Macroscian]

The big bubble has been removed on Champs. And Hunters have a bubble since RoR (although small)
And as I said in another thread, with my Hunter, new 95, with still a 85 LI, I could do the whole Necro skraid, except the boss.
It was unthinkable do to that with a Hunter before.

No. Agile Rejoinder is gone in HD (that one parry response skill now that we get parry on everything!). We have a long cd panic skill that adds temp morale. Now imagine mobs dealing 1/3 more damage and try out hnt again. Unless mounted in Blue line, no go zones abound.

[rannion]

When it comes to the primary stat contribution and secondary stat availability, again, I do realize that many classes are approaching if not already at the stat caps. And I also realize that, based on your primary stat, it is a lot easier to hit these various caps (Guardians and block, Wardens and Evade, etc). However, this is where gear choice comes into play. Sure, a Warden may not need an Evade ring that drop some random instance. However, there may be a block ring available through reputation, enticing that player to advance there. And when I say that I want to look into contributions, it is because I do not want a tank getting 75% percent of their block through might alone, leaving dps even better off (granted they probably wouldn't be using a shield). Instead I might look to provide them with, say, 45% of their capped block, enticing them to look into other block options, and placing much more of an emphasis on the importance of stat-ing defensively (Keep in mind that all of these are examples - not actual numbers).

As I had understood earlier posts on this topic posted on the HD beta forum, bpe/mits would become the tradeoff (with the mit-heavy classes presumably also having more morale, even though they need less considering they're taking less of every hit in damage). Yet with the current items, I am overcapping block only if I go for block-heavy BoE jewellery drops -- which don't drop for us -- without wearing the crafted armor options that have large amounts of superfluous evade. Now for my question: if I understand you correctly, you seem to be implying that you want the +evade component to become necessary if we want to attain a capped stat. If that is the case, I don't see how my wrd will have a chance in hell to reach the block cap, even aside from the fact that it is currently next to impossible to keep our bpe buffs up consistently due to class revamp "issues". (And neither is tank trait tree much help, what with our not getting a free +5% b, p or e..)
Now, I don't know at which point you (and the class devs) feel the different tank trees are comparable in terms of survivability vs. tanking ability, but if you'll allow me to assume for the sake of argument that the equivalent of a guard with (I'd guess that even after curve adjustments they'll be capable of reaching) 80% mits+25/20/15 bpe is a triply capped wrd with equal-sized morale pool+selfheals, will we still be able to reach those numbers? Or will that force us to trade in morale for bpe (even though guards take only 40% of the damage compared to us, with only slightly lower bpe, which is decreased fairly brutally by finesse, as opposed to mitigations, which aren't affected at all)?

[Castorix]

No. Agile Rejoinder is gone in HD (that one parry response skill now that we get parry on everything!). We have a long cd panic skill that adds temp morale. Now imagine mobs dealing 1/3 more damage and try out hnt again. Unless mounted in Blue line, no go zones abound.

With the new short duration for the 3K+ morale skill and in-combat traps, Hunters are a lot stronger, except against bosses.
I did all Lieutenants of Necro skraid like this : totally impossible before HD.
(and I don't talk about the crazy DPS in Red : ~40K on 3-man mobs...)

[Bhoris_they_spider]

Where da loot list at Verizel?

[Ratharim]

So first off, changes were made to the scaling instance loot and, per the requests of most of you, I will be compiling a list of all available gear that will be released on the forums a bit closer to the launch of 12.1

Will this list include only gear for level 95, or for lower lever too? Particularly for "original" level of the instance?

[dwarfThar]

So U12.1 is (almost) here, when can we expect the list, Verizal?

[Peter_Pan]

Will this list include only gear for level 95, or for lower lever too? Particularly for "original" level of the instance?

The loot from scaled instances is scaled. So the names, icons, stat distributions and locations for these items should be the same for all levels at which they drop. As such, the list can be used as reference for any level.

[Lodesh]

So U12.1 is (almost) here, when can we expect the list, Verizal?

This............

[Verizal]

Hey all,

So I'm in the process of throwing the list together right now, and should be able to throw it up on the forums by tomorrow. It will be comprised of all scaling instances.

In regards to some of the other posts...

Yes, I realize that all of the restructuring and reorganizing can be a bit much, but the reason for it (on my end at least) is that I am actively trying to create a more structured reward system that can be extended throughout as much of the game as possible. Does this mean that prior systems might be revisited or revised? Sure its possible. But if so, its only because I feel that something worthwhile might come out of it. And in regards to a lack of content because of it, well, Im not a content designer, so I wouldn't be making any anyway :-P

To address the issue with items names...well...yea. That's a project I'd like to jump on, but it would require a bit of time, and sadly there are other things that are taking precedence. It's on my list of things though.

And to touch a bit more on future balance - Do not worry about various classes and their ease of obtaining certain stats. Everything will be taken into consideration. If you are a tank, I intend to provide a means of capping out any of the defensive stats you might choose. The same goes with dps and stats such as critical rating. The number of stats that you might cap and the ease of doing so will still require some tinkering with numbers, but I just want to remind you that I will be taking everything into consideration.

[dwarfThar]

Hey all,

So I'm in the process of throwing the list together right now, and should be able to throw it up on the forums by tomorrow. It will be comprised of all scaling instances.

In regards to some of the other posts...

Yes, I realize that all of the restructuring and reorganizing can be a bit much, but the reason for it (on my end at least) is that I am actively trying to create a more structured reward system that can be extended throughout as much of the game as possible. Does this mean that prior systems might be revisited or revised? Sure its possible. But if so, its only because I feel that something worthwhile might come out of it. And in regards to a lack of content because of it, well, Im not a content designer, so I wouldn't be making any anyway :-P

To address the issue with items names...well...yea. That's a project I'd like to jump on, but it would require a bit of time, and sadly there are other things that are taking precedence. It's on my list of things though.

And to touch a bit more on future balance - Do not worry about various classes and their ease of obtaining certain stats. Everything will be taken into consideration. If you are a tank, I intend to provide a means of capping out any of the defensive stats you might choose. The same goes with dps and stats such as critical rating. The number of stats that you might cap and the ease of doing so will still require some tinkering with numbers, but I just want to remind you that I will be taking everything into consideration.

Thanks for the update and for the work you put into that list. Highly appreciated!

[Peter_Pan]

Hey all,

So I'm in the process of throwing the list together right now, and should be able to throw it up on the forums by tomorrow. It will be comprised of all scaling instances.

In regards to some of the other posts...

Yes, I realize that all of the restructuring and reorganizing can be a bit much, but the reason for it (on my end at least) is that I am actively trying to create a more structured reward system that can be extended throughout as much of the game as possible. Does this mean that prior systems might be revisited or revised? Sure its possible. But if so, its only because I feel that something worthwhile might come out of it. And in regards to a lack of content because of it, well, Im not a content designer, so I wouldn't be making any anyway :-P

To address the issue with items names...well...yea. That's a project I'd like to jump on, but it would require a bit of time, and sadly there are other things that are taking precedence. It's on my list of things though.

And to touch a bit more on future balance - Do not worry about various classes and their ease of obtaining certain stats. Everything will be taken into consideration. If you are a tank, I intend to provide a means of capping out any of the defensive stats you might choose. The same goes with dps and stats such as critical rating. The number of stats that you might cap and the ease of doing so will still require some tinkering with numbers, but I just want to remind you that I will be taking everything into consideration.

Thanks for your post Verizal, and for your work on this! Looking forward to seeing the list tomorrow.

I'm also glad to hear you're paying so much attention to balance between stats and classes, it's quite a relief!