Presenting a Case

[Daugon]

The topic I would like to address is the idea of land exploitation. This is semi-in-response to a recent thread I was reading, which I recommend viewing.
Link: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Little-Things

The idea of land exploiting, and/or exploitation, has been around since the start of the game. But what is land exploitation? How do you define it? Well one example that might quickly pop into your mind is being able to skip a difficult part in a raid/dungeon to acquire your loot easily. This is obviously a land exploitation.

What about going some where "you aren't supposed to go"? For instance my friend Tom, Jack, or Richard loves to roam around on top of the roof tops in Bree. Now he has described the manner in which he gets up, but not the location of the actual jump. He told me that the jump is easier to complete than getting on top of the Boar Fountain in the Bree Town Square.

So think about that for a little bit. If something is so easy to get on top of the same way it is easy to get on top of a fountain, who is to say either is wrong, or "you aren't supposed to go there"? Are Tom, Jack, or Richard not supposed to go on the roofs? If getting on them is simpler than doing something Turbine doesn't care about, can we not deduce that it is not wrong either?

But this is not the extent of this grey area. I ask again: what is land exploiting? Jumping to an off limits location?

I want to give you an examples of three deeds BASED on land exploitation.

#1: Fisher King
This deed requires you to make one semi-difficulty jump to get to a secret undisclosed location. After you find the secret fishing hole, you get the title "Fisher King".

#2: Ridge Racer
This deed is much harder to complete and requires the player to make a series of semi-difficult jump, which Tom, Jack, or Richard failed on his first two tries. Once you complete the series of jumps and ascend a tower that you come across, you get the title "Ridge Racer".

#3: Master Ascender
This deed is one of Tom, Jack, or Richards favorites. Have you noticed there are two tower in Ost Galadh? One is obviously climbable, yet the other seems not to be. In fact, there is actually a secret way to get on top. This requires quite I large series of difficult jumps. Once you reach the top of the tower, you acquire the title "Master Ascender".


Just looking at these particular deeds, would it not seem that Turbine not only likes the idea of land exploitation, but may even condone it and reward it? Of course I am not saying this is the definitive case, but the evidence seems to point in that direction. Now one might also ask, "What could possibly be your motivation to even want to get outside of the landscape?"

For Tom, Jack, or Richard, it is the ability to see something new; to see something no one else has; to climb a height only you have climbed; to find some little Easter Egg a developer left in some little corner of the world. Tom, Jack, or Richard has seen remote Bree-like village, squirrels running around a hobbit, an old grave yard, a small Hobbit village, and abandon swamp, beautiful scenery that should be seen and appreciated, landscapes that defy physics. This is why he does it. And he isn't stopping anytime soon.

-Closing Remarks-

Looking at the deeds above, it would seem like Turbine encourages us to reach the seemingly unreachable locations. I'm not saying this IS their point of view, but I would argue that it APPEARS to be their point of view. And how is the average Tom, Jack, or Richard supposed to know what area is off limits, and what areas aren't, when almost all of them are so easily accessible. To me, it appears Turbine should either let people roam free and try to reach the unreachable, or they should add invisible barriers and remove the exploration and "exploiting" deeds altogether. I would argue for the first option, strictly for Tom, Jack, or Richards case, and the case of every other explorer out there. Tom, Jack, or Richard will never stop looking for that one spot, or that one location, that no one has been to. Most explorers understand the dangers of these areas, and how your character can get corrupted, although I have never talked to anyone how has experienced this. If Turbine set a president saying, "If you go to one of these places and something happens to your character, you assume all negative effects upon yourself," then the liability towards Turbine would be alleviated.

So that is my case.

I look forward to the discussion below and any possible evidence and/or counter-evidence you can provide.

[Sapience]

Looking at the deeds above, it would seem like Turbine encourages us to reach the seemingly unreachable locations.

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

[Frisco]

It's not about liability. They could delete your character on a whim and still be within their rights--you only rent your characters.

But the person whose character is lost will most likely pitch a fit, and that's what they're trying to avoid.

I think they try to close landscape holes as best as possible, but since it's one person closing holes and 100,000 people trying to find them, some holes stay open longer than others. They have closed half a dozen ways to the Bree roofs over the years, but with the recent Bree revamp, combined with War Steeds being able to reach places normal horses couldn't for the previous 6 years, there are lots more holes to close.

Whether they close them by making it impossible to make the jumps (which is easiest) or closing the MULTIPLE holes which are found between the roofs and undesirable zones remains to be seen. It would seem like making the Bree roofs safe to explore would be the better long-term solution, but they probably don't have the manpower available to put someone on that huge task.

The solution they found for the landscape between LL and ND was a combination of methods--they put in a pretty effective wall, and in the one place left where you can still get up, they made it so that entering the area called FIX ME: UNASSIGNED automatically ports you to Bree. But I think that the area inside Bree is too small to insert a FIX ME: UNASSIGNED zone, and is too detailed to put in giant invisible walls without screwing something else up in the process.

[Daugon]

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

Thank you for the quick response, Sapience.

I guess the question for me would be: is going outside of the landscape, in a way that doesn't benefit your player, a punishable offence? Or is it allowed and more of a "here be monsters" type thing, meaning we assume all possible outcomes?

[Frisco]

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

I think his point was that it's very difficult to tell between an intentionally inserted exploration opportunity and an exploit until you see if you've gotten credit for a deed once you reach the target.

Obviously, once you come to the forum and ask if it's legal and get an answer, you know. But initially, trying to get on the Bree roofs and getting onto the Ridge Racer ridge are quite similar until you find out later that one is an exploit and the other is worth 10 Turbine Points.

[Korrigan-EU]

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

No disrespect meant, but doesn't this sound a bit like hiding poor programming behind supposedly bad player behavior?

I'm in the software engineering business since a long time (30+ years), and one of the first things I've learned is to keep the user away from harm by stopping him doing stupid things, or correcting such things if he still happens to do them.

My take is that if in a game such as an MMORPG, a player can completely lose all his character data because of his own actions within the rules of the game (and yeah, that can mean jumping on that strange rock just to see what's behind it), then the blame is not to put on the player, but on the developer who failed to stop the player from doing something that may be very bad for his account. And this is even more true since the issue isn't a new one, but one known since many years already.

If a player can completely lose his character data by doing actions the game doesn't block him from doing, then sorry... but it's not the player who is wrong. It's the developer who didn't do his job.

[Sapience]

Thank you for the quick response, Sapience.

I guess the question for me would be: is going outside of the landscape, in a way that doesn't benefit your player, a punishable offence? Or is it allowed and more of a "here be monsters" type thing, meaning we assume all possible outcomes?

It's pretty obvious when people intentionally go outside of the landscape. It is absolutely not allowed. And you still, as I mentioned before, run the risk of a permanently stuck or damage character.

Basically you're talking 'lots of risk, no reward.'

[Phawnie]

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

I understand what you are saying, however, how is the average player suppose to know which places are specifically crafted to support exploration and which ones aren't? They are not marked as far as I have been able to see. In order to discover the secret deeds, you have to explore and try to get to places that are not part of the normal route through the landscape.

[Gedrevn]

trying to get on the Bree roofs and getting onto the Ridge Racer ridge are quite similar until you find out later that one is an exploit and the other is worth 10 Turbine Points.

This is a really great point. It's kind of ridiculous that something that's easily solvable in just about any other MMO (getting stuck in landscape due to a design error) suddenly becomes a "serious, unapproved risk with no chance of recovery" in LOTRO despite the fact that there are numerous hidden deeds with no description and no indication of danger that invite players to do the exact same thing.

Half the fun of an MMO is getting out and exploring the world. Making that a no-win prospect in some cases, is pretty depressing.

[Daugon]

I think his point was that it's very difficult to tell between an intentionally inserted exploration opportunity and an exploit until you see if you've gotten credit for a deed once you reach the target.

Obviously, once you come to the forum and ask if it's legal and get an answer, you know. But initially, trying to get on the Bree roofs and getting onto the Ridge Racer ridge are quite similar until you find out later that one is an exploit and the other is worth 10 Turbine Points.

I understand what you are saying, however, how is the average player suppose to know which places are specifically crafted to support exploration and which ones aren't? They are not marked as far as I have been able to see. In order to discover the secret deeds, you have to explore and try to get to places that are not part of the normal route through the landscape.

My point exactly. That is what I mean by allow all, or allow nothing.

[Daugon]

Basically you're talking 'lots of risk, no reward.'

I guess for me seeing new sights and things unseen by others is high reward. Just because I don't earn a material item as a reward for going to some location doesn't mean I don't want to go there. The main reason I play LotRO is to explore. It's the reason I've pre-ordered every expansion. I don't care about raids or quests as much as I want to explore the landscape and find interesting tidbits here and there, whether that be in or out of the "map".

[Frisco]

My point exactly. That is what I mean by allow all, or allow nothing.

It's a tricky situation. If you stop threatening to ban people, the roof would be full of people potentially falling into an abyss and losing their character. Even if it's the developers' fault, they can't just give free reign of the roofs to players.

I don't think that the other exploration deeds should necessarily be lumped in with this one, though--even if other exploration deeds were removed, people would still be testing every square inch of the landscape and getting there anyway.

I think the focus should be more on the Bree rooftops--either close the exploits quickly or, better yet, make the Bree rooftops safe to roam. This is definitely a well-documented "exploit". People have been getting up there for 7 years. I used to roam around up there a lot back in 2007, before there was any talk of it being an exploit (we'd bring a group of all Captains so that if we tried a jump and failed, we could get a port right back up), and I fell in almost every place conceivable. I never got anywhere where it seemed like I wouldn't be able to recover my character. There were times where I would've had to map out of a Captain wasn't available, but nothing like even the glitches you see getting stuck in a dozen other rock clefts in the game.

The Bree remodel would've been the ideal time to make a Roof Runner deed.

[Daugon]

It's a tricky situation. If you stop threatening to ban people, the roof would be full of people potentially falling into an abyss and losing their character. Even if it's the developers' fault, they can't just give free reign of the roofs to players.

I don't think that the other exploration deeds should necessarily be lumped in with this one, though--even if other exploration deeds were removed, people would still be testing every square inch of the landscape and getting there anyway.

I think the focus should be more on the Bree rooftops--either close the exploits quickly or, better yet, make the Bree rooftops safe to roam. This is definitely a well-documented "exploit". People have been getting up there for 7 years. I used to roam around up there a lot back in 2007, before there was any talk of it being an exploit (we'd bring a group of all Captains so that if we tried a jump and failed, we could get a port right back up), and I fell in almost every place conceivable. I never got anywhere where it seemed like I wouldn't be able to recover my character. There were times where I would've had to map out of a Captain wasn't available, but nothing like even the glitches you see getting stuck in a dozen other rock clefts in the game.

The Bree remodel would've been the ideal time to make a Roof Runner deed.

I have been roaming the roof tops since I early 2009. I have never found a place I could get corrupted, though I have fallen in those hole that go down to a sharp point. All you have to do is type /stuck to get out of it. That's the worst that's ever happened.

[Pluck]

I think you just misunderstand what exploitation means in an MMO. Please let me explain.

It means doing something THE DEVS DID NOT WANT OR INTEND FOR YOU TO DO. If they want you to jump to get a ridge racer title, that is not exploitation. If you find a way to jump somewhere to avoid a stage of a dungeon, that is exploitation.

Its really that simple. No need for a complicated thesis, closing argument, or what not.

You are welcome.

[Frisco]

I think you just misunderstand what exploitation means in an MMO. Please let me explain.

It means doing something THE DEVS DID NOT WANT OR INTEND FOR YOU TO DO. If they want you to jump to get a ridge racer title, that is not exploitation. If you find a way to jump somewhere to avoid a stage of a dungeon, that is exploitation.

Its really that simple. No need for a complicated thesis, closing argument, or what not.

You are welcome.

And clearly YOU'RE missing something as well--how would one know what the developers intended? Do you have their home phone number so that when I get somewhere I'm not sure is legal, I can give them a call and see? Ridge Racer sure has some tricky jumps, seems pretty illegal, I should turn back and...cool, I got Turbine Points!

The only method they have for communicating exploits is this forum, or finding out the hard way. And we're not allowed to detail exploits on the forum. If you search hard enough you may find out if something you're curious about is an exploit or is an intended exploration, but how many people actually come to the forum?

[Pluck]

And clearly YOU'RE missing something as well--how would one know what the developers intended? Do you have their home phone number so that when I get somewhere I'm not sure is legal, I can give them a call and see? Ridge Racer sure has some tricky jumps, seems pretty illegal, I should turn back and...cool, I got Turbine Points!

The only method they have for communicating exploits is this forum, or finding out the hard way. And we're not allowed to detail exploits on the forum. If you search hard enough you may find out if something you're curious about is an exploit or is an intended exploration, but how many people actually come to the forum?

Exploitation is indeed defined solely by the Developers. We dont get a say in the definition. It also depends on what the Developers decide they will defend as the definition. They make the game, they decide whats what.

For example, if I ride around a rock outcropping to slow down a warband, that would ONLY be defined as exploitation if the Devs wanted to really push it and define it as such. But you and I know full well they never would. Its just too trivial. Now, if I could stand on that same rock outcropping and defeat that warband while they cannot touch me, thats clearly an exploit. It breaks the intended mechanics of the game. I feel its pretty cut and dried as to what the Devs will consider an exploit or not.

I think the easy test is this; if you feel like you have to go on the forums and ask if something is an exploit, then it probably is. We as players have a pretty refined sense of what is cheating and what isnt. And remember Turbine isnt going to go and ban folks for the borderline stuff. They are too busy and understaffed.

So, if your gut says its an exploit, dont do it (and report it just in case Turbine can fix it). If you arent sure, then do worry too much, Turbine probably doesnt care to define it as bad.

[Tardall]

No disrespect meant, but doesn't this sound a bit like hiding poor programming behind supposedly bad player behavior?

I'm in the software engineering business since a long time (30+ years), and one of the first things I've learned is to keep the user away from harm by stopping him doing stupid things, or correcting such things if he still happens to do them.

My take is that if in a game such as an MMORPG, a player can completely lose all his character data because of his own actions within the rules of the game (and yeah, that can mean jumping on that strange rock just to see what's behind it), then the blame is not to put on the player, but on the developer who failed to stop the player from doing something that may be very bad for his account. And this is even more true since the issue isn't a new one, but one known since many years already.

If a player can completely lose his character data by doing actions the game doesn't block him from doing, then sorry... but it's not the player who is wrong. It's the developer who didn't do his job.

I find it odd how everyone is ignoring this perfectly valid and to the point post.

[Gedrevn]

Now, if I could stand on that same rock outcropping and defeat that warband while they cannot touch me, thats clearly an exploit. It breaks the intended mechanics of the game. I feel its pretty cut and dried as to what the Devs will consider an exploit or not.

Ignoring the fact that exploits innately offer some sort of advantage to a player, versus getting stuck and losing your stuff which offers nothing and in no way endangers the integrity of the game, let's use that same example as it's applied to what we're talking about here.

Let's say there's 2 warbands.

The first Warband, you accidentally get stuck behind a rock and they can't touch you, after you defeat that warband, you get a little notice in the bottom corner of your screen saying "You've completed a deed - CANT TOUCH THIS!" and get 10 TP.

The second Warband, you get stuck behind a rock, then you get permabanned and lose all your stuff.

...

You're absolutely right the devs get final say, but equally important in a GAME is creating a fun and consistent user experience.

[Frisco]

I think the easy test is this; if you feel like you have to go on the forums and ask if something is an exploit, then it probably is. We as players have a pretty refined sense of what is cheating and what isnt. And remember Turbine isnt going to go and ban folks for the borderline stuff. They are too busy and understaffed.

So, if your gut says its an exploit, dont do it (and report it just in case Turbine can fix it). If you arent sure, then do worry too much, Turbine probably doesnt care to define it as bad.

You're still missing the point. There are 4 examples given in the original post--Ridge Racer, Master Ascender, Fisher King, and Bree Rooftops. All 4 of these examples (except maybe Master Ascender) require one to do something that seems like it could be an exploit--make difficult jumps on the terrain to get to areas that don't seem to have any in-game purpose.

3 of the examples reward Turbine Points for taking advantage of the terrain. The 4th is an exploit. Just simply saying "well, if it feels like an exploit, it probably is" is reductive and untrue.

[Frisco]

I find it odd how everyone is ignoring this perfectly valid and to the point post.

It is a valid point. But at the same time, Turbine can't just come out and say "well, we don't have time to fix that exploit right now and it's completely our fault, so everyone should just go ahead and play around on the rooftops and risk losing your character until we get around to it."

[Gedrevn]

It is a valid point. But at the same time, Turbine can't just come out and say "well, we don't have time to fix that exploit right now and it's completely our fault, so everyone should just go ahead and play around on the rooftops and risk losing your character until we get around to it."

While this is true, and it does seem like Turbine has fewer resources to be able to dedicate to correcting things like this, when it comes down to making a correction like this, I don't know of ANY other game that's not able to reset character position. It's such an incredibly minor thing for an admin to be able to do, that to issue a blanket statement "your stuff is all gone, no takebacks, no exceptions" for something that's a gray area at best, seems ridiculous.

And as Korrigan pointed out, if it really is a deeper issue, such as that type of reset being impossible, or jumping to the wrong area being able to corrupt a character database, that would be a serious programming issue that smacks to some much larger problems.

[Garan]

I've been exploring nooks and crannys in Middle Earth since some time near the end of closed beta 1. In all that time, I've never gotten so hopelessly lost that my character couldn't be recovered although I once came close. In the course of exploring Eastern Rohan I accidentally reached a point where I got an ominous message like "Your character could not be placed in the world, please contact Customer Service". I feared the worse, but all I had to do was close the client, log back in and my character was automatically rolled back to a version that was several minutes older in a perfectly safe location. All I lost was a few points of interest on my map and one exploration deed. That doesn't mean that every character will be that fortunate, but it does mean that Turbine has some safeguards in place to help innocent explorers from being sucked into a black whole and never being recovered. My advice would be to only explore on characters that you won't mind rerolling if they do get sucked into the abyss and stay away from areas that Turbine has already indicated are known trouble spots such as the roofs in Bree.

[Beaniemooch]

Quite the opposite. We routinely remind players that exploration of this type may lead to your character being put into a state from which it cannot be retrieved. meaning it and all contents will be lost forever.

We have added a handful of very specific deeds in the game in places specifically crafted to support it. Outside of those areas, you are very much putting your character at risk.

Nowhere in here do I see Sapience threatening to ban people. What I see him saying is your character may self-destruct and Turbine may not be able to help you get it back. That is different than banning your account or deleting your character for being where you shouldn't.

[Ansarillien]

I am not an explorer. If I were Christopher Columbus you would see my mummified bones still standing on the shore and never setting sail for the New World. I am a careful player and this is the first MMO I've ever played. Chalk that up to the fact that I'm a woman of a certain age and a mom and was dragged into this game many years ago by my dear family who convinced me to apply for Beta and I became a founder and lifelong (intended, at least) member. I have loved the game but I bring my mom genes/jeans with me so I tend to follow rules whether explicit or implied and only discover anything obscure from following those around who know far more than I.

That being said, it is the explorer, both in R/L and the game, who changes things and opens new possibilities and vistas. If there is no one to push against the known boundary, we squelch the very thing that drives us to advance, both euphemistically and literally. If an area that seems off limits suddenly rewards the explorer with points, titles, etc., then exploration is rewarded. If, in that same vein, one encounters permanent corruption to the character played, then a death sentence is issued. Rather harsh, it would seem, for what has been clearly designed to be an ambiguous pursuit (you don't know if it's actually legal until you are rewarded or potentially sentenced to death). Do you WANT your long-term players and adventurers/explorers who bring a sense of freshness and excitement to the game and other players to cease to exist? That not only seems heinous but self-annihilating. If your players cease to exist then so does your fee, your expansion packs, your future purchase of Turbine points, and the good reputation and recommendation of the game to others.

There must be a better way and since, as Frisco so eloquently points out, we cannot have the developers' phone numbers with ready access to all insider information, there would be no way to determine if one has embarked on an adventure or complete eradication. Daugon makes a fine point as do Gedrevn, Phawnie, and Korrigan. I appreciate the input, Sapience, but might we have a broader view of this and a more philosophical approach that would seek to support players while also making clear, within the game, the hard and fast lines of demarcation?

Ansarillien - Ridge Racer

[Daugon]

Nowhere in here do I see Sapience threatening to ban people. What I see him saying is your character may self-destruct and Turbine may not be able to help you get it back. That is different than banning your account or deleting your character for being where you shouldn't.

Actually, he said it right here that it is not allowed. Therefore, if you do it, you are breaking a "law", and we all know what happens when you break the law. Punishment, although I have never heard of a case.

It's pretty obvious when people intentionally go outside of the landscape. It is absolutely not allowed.