Where's Jinjaah? We miss you

[Jinjaah]

Just one question from me, as I couldn't understand. Do defiler heals get scaled properly in u13?
Thank you for popping and answering our questions, in advance

As of right now, we haven't really touched the defiler healing, but this remains something that I want to squeeze in if I can.

-Jinjaah

[Aranedain]

Jinjaah, I'm very glad to see you have many things in the works and that the 'moors is still receiving quite a bit of your focus in light of recent events. I'm sure you're working your butt off with more than enough to do. Thank you and thanks also for this encouraging communication!

In case you have time for another question: Are we going to see a return of freepside rank-based rewards anytime soon (R8 and R10 class items, R10 and R13 legendaries, etc.)? While I don't think this is the highest priority that you have right now, I was just hoping to hear that they would someday return in some fashion.

[Rashy]

Thanks alot for the info Jinjaah

[Vulcwen]

Thanks Jinjaah for responding

But ok, so as I understand the orc-craft/fell-wrought damage going through physical mitigations (but not common) would leave light classes quite a bit under cap (33-35%), or just slightly under cap like it was before HD, and has a little more impact to mediums, but less to heavies due to the 80% armour ignoring, but heavies gaining extra phys mits from might and having their special formulas. I guess this needs some additional balancing.
A small problem with finesse is that it effects classes that cannot block more than those that can, something to take in mind as well.

Finally, can perhaps the damage types in terms of traits be reversed? So that orc-craft/fell-wrought needs a trait slot while the tactical variant is default, especially now the newer types are more effective, and still will be because of debuffs. It seems weird that you have to trait for the lesser version.

[borges_maze]

Thanks for the responses, Jinjaah. Much appreciated.

[Jinjaah]

Jinjaah, I'm very glad to see you have many things in the works and that the 'moors is still receiving quite a bit of your focus in light of recent events. I'm sure you're working your butt off with more than enough to do. Thank you and thanks also for this encouraging communication!

In case you have time for another question: Are we going to see a return of freepside rank-based rewards anytime soon (R8 and R10 class items, R10 and R13 legendaries, etc.)? While I don't think this is the highest priority that you have right now, I was just hoping to hear that they would someday return in some fashion.

In the immediate future, I don't see these rewards coming back but down the road I would love to see more incentives/rewards for participating in the Ettenmoors return.

-Jinjaah

[Jinjaah]

Thanks Jinjaah for responding

But ok, so as I understand the orc-craft/fell-wrought damage going through physical mitigations (but not common) would leave light classes quite a bit under cap (33-35%), or just slightly under cap like it was before HD, and has a little more impact to mediums, but less to heavies due to the 80% armour ignoring, but heavies gaining extra phys mits from might and having their special formulas. I guess this needs some additional balancing.
A small problem with finesse is that it effects classes that cannot block more than those that can, something to take in mind as well.

Finally, can perhaps the damage types in terms of traits be reversed? So that orc-craft/fell-wrought needs a trait slot while the tactical variant is default, especially now the newer types are more effective, and still will be because of debuffs. It seems weird that you have to trait for the lesser version.

This is definitely something that we have thought about. A solution that we could look further into is perhaps making some of those traits that change damage for creeps become toggle skills that change their damage type. I do agree though that it seems a bit odd with the new types to trait away from them.

-Jinjaah

[Aranedain]

In the immediate future, I don't see these rewards coming back but down the road I would love to see more incentives/rewards for participating in the Ettenmoors return.

-Jinjaah

Thanks for the reply.

[edjepredje]

It's good to see some developer communication. Thanks for this so far Jinjaah.

One thing comes to mind regarding the Ettenmoors balance:

What is your (Turbine's) policy on the multi-boxing players in the Ettenmoors?
You can balance all you want, but if people are still allowed to bring and control 10 accounts at the same time it seems pointless. This has been happening on alot of servers including Meneldor, Laurelin and Gilrain that i know of personally. Here is an example (youtube video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noaMRwlJ6qs&noredirect=1

~Edhun

[Galwir]

Finally, can perhaps the damage types in terms of traits be reversed? So that orc-craft/fell-wrought needs a trait slot while the tactical variant is default, especially now the newer types are more effective, and still will be because of debuffs. It seems weird that you have to trait for the lesser version.

Thats sounds nice.
For example Burning Blades reavers' trait that is now useless might be changed into "orc craft weapons" trait. Changing common damage to orc craft, thus dealing more damage, especially to those heavy armoured.
While I know there is plenty of thinking required, and even more programming and testing, I'm glad Jinjaah you are responding and giving us hope someone is doing there some good work!

[Nouri]

On the other hand, with the levels of mitigations heavy classes can easily achieve, along with the current potency of their self-heals and damage, you as developers have painted yourselves into a bit of a corner.

That's precisely what they've done.

How are you planning to allow heavy classes that are already quite competitive, or among the more powerful classes in the moors (not counting red champs here) with a 30% mitigation rate to be even remotely challenged by creeps when they have 65-80% mitigations? If creep damage, whether through base stat adjustments or the damage / healing pass makes it through, scales things up to where creeps are still hitting heavies about as hard as they do now, that seems like it would mean a light armour class would be reduced to ashes if a dps creep so much as looked at it funny.

How do you plan to reconcile these issues?

I have a very bad feeling about this!

[Nouri]

It will certainly leave them in a dangerous spot but we can play with how we want to go about implementing these things based on who we are trying to target with these types of effects. For example, if we wanted to target the heavy classes with a armour debuff but were concerned it would be too much for light armour classes, we could look at debuffing the the physical mitigation rating by a percentage, so lower values get less of an effect. Not saying this is something we will do, but its something we will keep an eye on.

-Jinjaah

Great. So I'm likely looking at being in a position somewhere between "It will certainly leave them in a dangerous spot" and some degree of current mitigations reduction?

[Vulcwen]

It will certainly leave them in a dangerous spot but we can play with how we want to go about implementing these things based on who we are trying to target with these types of effects. For example, if we wanted to target the heavy classes with a armour debuff but were concerned it would be too much for light armour classes, we could look at debuffing the the physical mitigation rating by a percentage, so lower values get less of an effect. Not saying this is something we will do, but its something we will keep an eye on.

-Jinjaah

Perhaps, if it might be possible, a debuff to physical mitigation contributions from might? That would really only target heavies (and wardens a little), while leaving mediums and light classes untouched. Armour debuffs can go in percentages, but they might not have enough of an effect. 15k armour (a bit of guessing) would only contribute to 3k non-common phys mits, so most still comes from might and vit, which easily gives 6k+ each (with heavy mits formula, enough to get over 50% with ease).

So some quick calculations on stats:
Light classes: 8000-10000 rating (32-35%)
Medium classes: 10000-12000 rating (35-39%)
Heavy classes: 15000-17000 rating (not sure, but I guess around 60%, gonna need some checking)

So heavies will really have an additional advantage (due to higher ratings AND lower diminishing returns), and an armour debuff is not gonna fix that, a might contribution debuff will (or just a plain might debuff). With heavy classes at around the same ratings as light/medium, they still have the diminishing returns advantage and will than be at around 45-50%.

[RGilthanas]

Jingaah, thank you very much for your posting/answers regardless of whether it's good or bad news. Any news is better than no news, it will go a long way to help reduce ridiculous rumours.

I'm looking forward to some more parity between classes, so we can see more of a diverse array of classes based on people's preferences or game style, rather than have everyone jumping on the most OP/FOTM class. I would love to see more spiders, Lore-masters, champs, and WL's, not just burgs, minstrels, wardens, wargs and reavers.

We'll see. I'm pretty intrigued by catapults, I hope it works out well.

[borges_maze]

So heavies will really have an additional advantage (due to higher ratings AND lower diminishing returns), and an armour debuff is not gonna fix that, a might contribution debuff will (or just a plain might debuff).

A Might contribution debuff I could see. A straight Might debuff, however, would be a direct hit to heavies' main stat, nerfing their damage and (for cappies) healing. In the context of balancing against creeps this may be fair and should include nerfs to Will and Agility as well. In the context of balancing against other freeps, this would be unfair.

[Chris91]

Could we get both, Creep Corruptions and Freep Virtues changed to percentages? Not now, for U13, but as a medium term goal?

Several of their stat contributions aren't where they should be

[Vulcwen]

A Might contribution debuff I could see. A straight Might debuff, however, would be a direct hit to heavies' main stat, nerfing their damage and (for cappies) healing. In the context of balancing against creeps this may be fair and should include nerfs to Will and Agility as well. In the context of balancing against other freeps, this would be unfair.

I realized that, it's just that a plain might debuff is the easy/lazy approach (contribution debuffs are never seen yet, so would require some more coding than a plain stat debuff). If they take the lazy approach they could indeed nerf will/agi as well, but than you get to basically the same thing as the WLs banners.

I was just pointing out that the physical mitigation from might gives heavy classes an additional advantage after this change. And it's not like heavies are extremely squishy with 30% mits now (although they might feel so due to taking 130% more damage than with 70%).

[Joebob7]

Jinjaah, thank you SO much for talking to us! Seeing a blue name talk about something I care about over and over is such an awesome feeling...

I understand you may not have enough time to address the defiler this time around and I will forgive that (just this once ) because you are clearly trying very hard to make PvMP a thing again! However, once you do get to defilers, I suggest (heck, I'll beg if you want me to) you take a look at their power costs and reduce them (or something to fix how fast we eat it).

Thank you so much, again, for working and communicating with us. That makes a world of difference.

+1 rep for you!

[Ryssadis]

@Jinjaah I have a very serious question. Does this red headed hobbit taste good with spicy or savory barbecue sauce?

[Nouri]

I realized that, it's just that a plain might debuff is the easy/lazy approach (contribution debuffs are never seen yet, so would require some more coding than a plain stat debuff). If they take the lazy approach they could indeed nerf will/agi as well, but than you get to basically the same thing as the WLs banners.

I was just pointing out that the physical mitigation from might gives heavy classes an additional advantage after this change. And it's not like heavies are extremely squishy with 30% mits now (although they might feel so due to taking 130% more damage than with 70%).

So why even consider a change that gives heavies additional mitigations when something will have to be added to lower those increased mitigations? Freep heavies can already solo keeps, so they need more mitigations?

[poxnoxious]

I have a very bad feeling about this!

I'm looking at this from the other side of the pond and find myself in total agreement. This is thin ice at best.

Most of my concerns have been aired by others so not gonna bother with much else right now but saying thanks for you being vocal about things Jinjaah, albeit vague and all, a lil' news and some 'blue text' now and then is greatly appreciated by us all I have no doubt. Even though it's not good news, any kind of news is far better than none.

[mad_ox1]

Thats sounds nice.
For example Burning Blades reavers' trait that is now useless might be changed into "orc craft weapons" trait. Changing common damage to orc craft, thus dealing more damage, especially to those heavy armoured.
While I know there is plenty of thinking required, and even more programming and testing, I'm glad Jinjaah you are responding and giving us hope someone is doing there some good work!

Should just replace those traits entirely with something more useful and convert Weavers over to fell-wrought.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Would it be possible to completely remove auto-flips from the moors? I cannot think of a single good reason to have them with the present PvMP situation.

[Bond007]

Should just replace those traits entirely with something more useful and convert Weavers over to fell-wrought.

If weaver's damage is changed to fell-wrought, I have a bad feeling spider would be just as OP as it was in RoR... after picking my spider up again, all I find needing is a finesse buff/-target resist boost, plus the ability to summon pet in combat, and we'd be fine. Giving them fell-wrought damage would be just too much. Their CC/debuffing/survivability is potent, no need for their damage to be potent as well.


I'm interested to see how the swap over to physical mitigation will look for low-survivability classes like RK and hunter. Seems like this has the potential to grind them into warg food... just my concern...

[Chris91]

Why not make heavies use the same ratings to percentage conversion as light and medium armored classes for fellwrought/orc-craft damage only

They'd still have the higher cap and the bonus from might, but with the less favourable conversion they'd probably be softcapped somewhere between 50 and 55%