What is this lag people keep talking about?

[OruiFarimur]

I don't understand, I have a custom gaming comp. It's pretty decent and holds its own but it's definitely not the best. I have average internet speed and the only time I've really lagged noticeably in 5 years of playing is the taking the hobbits to isengard and massive RvR's (at least 30 on 30) and even then, it wasn't unplayable. Why is everyone always talking about lagging and blaming Turbine? It might just be your computer, but maybe not. What other variables can there be?

[Ioci]

I get crazy graphics lag when in snow storm area's and I've had a hiccup effect since forever, that many people I think call rubberbanding (my definition of rubberbanding is different) but it isn't lag, its a rendering issue tied to cache. I've experienced true Lag in other games from EVE Online to Tera launch day to FF14 ARR launch day and this game doesn't lag.

[Schmidster]

Not sure if you are being serious, but I have wanted to say something similar for a very, very long time.
Keep in mind that there are so many differences in configurations, multiplied by many other factors, further complicated by a number of yet more situations...
I am lucky in that yes I have had lag( hosting Kinship parties and handing out gifts to 50 players, large concerts), but only ever minor hiccups while playing. Not even really in 12 man raids.

Be nice, some folks really struggle with lag.

[Beaniemooch]

I lag in large groups when there are a lot of fire effects from mobs, or LM fire/RK fire/minstrel effects. Add multiples of those in the moors or in a raid and pretty much everybody I know lags.

How nice that you have a custom gaming computer. Not everybody does.

[OruiFarimur]

How nice that you have a custom gaming computer. Not everybody does.

So if it's admittedly your computer that's the issue, why do people complain? They would only have themselves to blame.

[Beaniemooch]

So if it's admittedly your computer that's the issue, why do people complain? They would only have themselves to blame.

Mostly comments like yours just make it appear you're rude and obnoxious and rubbing it in the face of those less fortunate how superior you are. I'm sure that's not the case though....lol. Luckily I also have a gaming computer, but to anybody that's done Amon Sul in a 12 man raid with all skirm soldiers and lots of LMs/RKs.... or a 24-man RvR in TR... it gets a bit jumpy.

[OruiFarimur]

Mostly comments like yours just make it appear you're rude and obnoxious and rubbing it in the face of those less fortunate how superior you are. I'm sure that's not the case though....lol. Luckily I also have a gaming computer, but to anybody that's done Amon Sul in a 12 man raid with all skirm soldiers and lots of LMs/RKs.... or a 24-man RvR in TR... it gets a bit jumpy.

I'm not trying appear rude or anything, I just figure if I'm going to start a post about lag I should point out reasons on why I don't experience it while others apparently do. I'm not saying I'm superior in anyway.

[anthonyx]

You are one of the lucky ones. And if you have been playing for 5 years I wonder how you missed some of the classic lags that affected nearly everyone. It may be that you on a smaller server or not playing at the times these happened. I have both a ###### laptop that plays LOTRO well and a high end machine that is overkill for LOTRO. I still get skill lag, MC lag, large group lag and various things. The last time I was in the moors nearly our whole group (15 freeps) had a nice skill lag that lasted about 10 seconds.

So it is highly unlikely that all 15 had computer problems to created the same lag. Granted there are many variables that can cause lag such as client side and internet lag. I think if you try to play beyond what your GPU can comfortably handle then you can cause lag. But there is some coding issues as well. I think it is an unrealistic thing to say that LOTRO is not the cause of some of the lag (they have on many occasions over the nearly 7 years noted the lag and their attempt at fixing it). Back in the day when we went into the Watcher raid we had to be sure that post processing was turned off (this was more or less because of visuals and what we needed to see), we had to make sure the cloaks were turned off and a few other tips so that it would be less laggy. I remember times when running the Turtle (on a very good PC at the time and good internet) that I would get caught in skill lags and nearly miss the fight. The lag isn't as bad as it used to be. But it is still shows up. Narrowing it down to the cause is always tricky but to say that it is totally Turbines fault or the user is wrong.

[dos7]

typically, in online gaming, lag refers to network latency (the time between when you press a skill button and that gets sent to servers and they respond that you have pressed that skill button) usually anything more than 100-250ms (1/4 of a second) is quite noticeable. In any type of real time game such as Lotro, and especially in first person shooters, excessive lag can be very detrimental to game play. The word lag gets thrown about a bit and has become a blanket term for any type of delay or latency in data flow/processing, regardless of whether it is caused by network issues or local hardware processing issues. It's difficult to say what the overall cause of lag is because of the sheer number of variables involved, as well as peoples definition and understanding of the said causes and variables. It's my opinion that the majority of complaints regarding lag are in fact network latency issues, which is the original meaning of lag. These causes can range from server sides issues to routing/traffic issues with ISP and other providers between you and the server. It can also be caused by excessive traffic on the user's end (downloading or streaming during game play).

[Occum]

The only time I get lag / rubberbanding is occasionally on a warsteed.

Then again, I don't often run with large groups. So I can't speak to that.
I built my PC, but it's 3+ years old with mid-range hardware from that time.

I DO have comparatively lower framerates in West Rohan compared to earlier regions, but I chalk that up to my older hardware. But that's not the same as lag.

Bottom line...I don't get lag either. I'm sorry for those who do. I don't think it's 100% the fault of Turbine.

[Vexendynamus]

In my opinion:

Things you have control over:
Insufficient graphics card rendering speed
Insufficient graphics card memory
Slow permanent storage access speed
Insufficient memory
Insufficient CPU capacity
Computer overheating
Faulty home router
Another program hogging bandwidth
Another program stressing the CPU
Another program swapping data to long term storage

Things you have some control over:
Internet speed
Internet provider issues
LOTRO interacts badly with another program on your computer

Things you have no control over:
Internet relay hub issue
Turbine internal routing issue
Turbine server issue
Turbine program issue

All may contribute to lag.

My machine regularly runs three copies of LOTRO at near maximum settings. I only get graphics card and permanent storage lag when running multiple clients in places like Bree-Town, and then only until all necessary graphics load. My graphics settings remained near maximum for Weatherstock. Like you, I rarely experience the lag described by others, even during raids. Yet, I still experience rubber banding with warsteeds. I have a friend who lags rather often. When I group with her, I sometimes 'inherit' her lag. I cannot explain that one.

As Schmidster said, please be nice. There are many variables in the equation.

[Nymphonic]

I cannot speak for everyone else. This is my personal experience.

1. Before Moria came out in 2008 I never had lag with vendors. Since Moria I lag a good 3 to 5 seconds before a vendor opens up. This has been on 2 different high end gaming rigs, one low end gaming laptop, 4 different physical addresses, and 3 different internet services.

2. The last few months I've been experiencing rubber band issues. From what I've read in the forums, I am not alone.

3. I've been experiencing lag when I attempt to use my vault. From the answers I've read from my thread on this subject, and people I have talked to in game, I am not alone.


I do not hold anything against Turbine as for as the lag goes. I have never played an MMO that did not have lag issues. Hell, when I played World of Warcraft, I was inside Ironforge one day and I took damage from a mob outside that I ran away from. Every MMO has it's issues. They are complex finicky programs.

Quite honestly, to make a blanket statement that everyone that has lag has it because of their computers is extremely inaccurate.

[Cefely]

Why is everyone always talking about lagging and blaming Turbine? It might just be your computer, but maybe not. What other variables can there be?

Consider the numerous folks that have posted that they can play a lot of games out there with no issues, yet (post RoR) Lotro runs like ####. Why is this?

I am a Founder/Lifer of Lotro. I have an older system. I have Windows XP 32 bit. I cannot invest in a new comp right now. As far as I have been told, when it comes to Lotro that is not a good thing (even thought when I started playing this game it was compatible). I can play Skyrim all day long with no lag or crashes or memory leaks. It's awesome & I am having a blast!

I actually can play Lotro just fine, too....unless I go anywhere beyond Galtrev. Then it is lag & CTD time for me. I played this game for years, starting in the original beta, I played through every xpack through Mirkwood & Moria with no major performance issues to speak of until RoR. I have HD installed but cannot play through any of it right now. I log on occasionally to run a skirm or two. The new stuff is pretty much unplayable for me at this time. Even 'New Bree' is a lag/crash fest.

So be it. Not much I can do about it except play in the pre-RoR areas or 'kill baddies/get loot' elsewhere which is what I am doing most of the time these days. *shrug*

[Rainothon]

I don't understand, I have a custom gaming comp. It's pretty decent and holds its own but it's definitely not the best. I have average internet speed and the only time I've really lagged noticeably in 5 years of playing is the taking the hobbits to isengard and massive RvR's (at least 30 on 30) and even then, it wasn't unplayable. Why is everyone always talking about lagging and blaming Turbine? It might just be your computer, but maybe not. What other variables can there be?

I have a beastly laptop and no issues at all running LOTRO at ultra high detail, all bells and whistles, sweetFX.

I have glassfiber internet at 100 Mb/s. I can pretty much solo landscape AND have some torrents running in the background, no limits. I might have a few hiccups. That's not lag.

I have a bit of a stutter at the vault. But here comes the biggy: despite my more than ample hardware and ISP: being in a raid in the Moors just freezes me to a grinding screeching unresponsive halt. The lag is crippling. Absolutely crippling.

It's only when I disable any buffs visible on other chars and set graphics to ultralow that I am back in fully playable mode again, very responsive again, cool.

I'm not blaming anyone. These things are complicated and rarely ever have one singular isolated cause.

[HoldumDown]

Lag is a catch-all expression many people don't really use appropriately.

When applying this term to graphic frame rate drops then some areas of LOTRO simply do perform terribly. I have a custom gaming PC that I built myself in August last year. I saw my frame rate drop by half when running BFE T2C during the final stages when Inferno is under way. Just poor implementation using an old engine. EQ2 has a similarly clunky old engine that is poorly optimised since launch. Rift has a similar problem (poor engine choice).

Compare and contrast with games like Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter and tESO beta which are remarkable for stable frame rates even at the highest settings with scores of people around.


When applying this term to network latency then again LOTRO suffers much worse than many other similar games. Anyone that has raided in the Ettenmoors will testify to that. However, many things affect network latency, not least server provider and location. One of the main problems us Euros face is routing to the server location. This can be offset by utilities like WTFast that sometimes provide faster routing for certain games, but WTFast uses TCP and LOTRO uses UDP so you're sol there.

The other problem is server load, and this is a real problem with LOTRO. Reduced Awareness is a direct attempt to help alleviate this, a band-aid. We don't know how many virtual servers and real racks LOTRO is running on, but this can often be a source of saving money so expect bare minimum.


To state you have never experienced 'lag' in LOTRO is just a flat out fabrication.

[Barrynor]

I cannot speak for everyone else. This is my personal experience.

1. Before Moria came out in 2008 I never had lag with vendors. Since Moria I lag a good 3 to 5 seconds before a vendor opens up. This has been on 2 different high end gaming rigs, one low end gaming laptop, 4 different physical addresses, and 3 different internet services.

2. The last few months I've been experiencing rubber band issues. From what I've read in the forums, I am not alone.

3. I've been experiencing lag when I attempt to use my vault. From the answers I've read from my thread on this subject, and people I have talked to in game, I am not alone.


I do not hold anything against Turbine as for as the lag goes. I have never played an MMO that did not have lag issues. Hell, when I played World of Warcraft, I was inside Ironforge one day and I took damage from a mob outside that I ran away from. Every MMO has it's issues. They are complex finicky programs.

Quite honestly, to make a blanket statement that everyone that has lag has it because of their computers is extremely inaccurate.

Yeah, sorry, but point 1. is not lag. 3. is not lag. This is a software issue, and/or a database issue, but no actual lag. Lag is purely your latency, and those issues have nothing to do with latency and everything with the LOTRO engine.


Diablo II used to have awesomely evil lag spikes in the early versions, getting abouve level 50 in hardcore mode was sheer impossible due to the oft 10 second round trips to the servers on battle.net . I once had a 7 minute episode of 5-10 second ping... and I was out in Act IV somewhere... needless to say my hardcore character died, but it took a good 10 minutes before she dropped.

[FittyBolger]

Mostly comments like yours just make it appear you're rude and obnoxious and rubbing it in the face of those less fortunate how superior you are. I'm sure that's not the case though....lol. Luckily I also have a gaming computer, but to anybody that's done Amon Sul in a 12 man raid with all skirm soldiers and lots of LMs/RKs.... or a 24-man RvR in TR... it gets a bit jumpy.

I have a beastly laptop and no issues at all running LOTRO at ultra high detail, all bells and whistles, sweetFX.

I have glassfiber internet at 100 Mb/s. I can pretty much solo landscape AND have some torrents running in the background, no limits. I might have a few hiccups. That's not lag.

I have a bit of a stutter at the vault. But here comes the biggy: despite my more than ample hardware and ISP: being in a raid in the Moors just freezes me to a grinding screeching unresponsive halt. The lag is crippling. Absolutely crippling.

It's only when I disable any buffs visible on other chars and set graphics to ultralow that I am back in fully playable mode again, very responsive again, cool.

I'm not blaming anyone. These things are complicated and rarely ever have one singular isolated cause.

I have built my own PC's for years (fast ones) and I have a fast internet connection via cable = I get lag. I don't get it often but it does happen.
Moors raid... instance raid... The lag isn't always there and it isn't always crippling but it can be a real pain in the behind at times.
If "my end" of the game requirements were the only factor in lag then I should never experience it = therefore I can only conclude that there is a Turbine side "problem" of some sort.

[Gilgamees]

I want to point out a problem that many inexperienced (in term of network knowledge) people may be unaware of.

Speaking of network latency (i'm not going to speak about graphical issues or low-end computers), often there is a reference to the download bandwidth at disposal to the user, as a possible source of latency. Number of hops, network routers and server loads all can be the origin of a heavy lag at the user end. But, what people should also consider is the "upload" bandwidth, that, in most cases, it's much less than download bandwidth.
Why you should care about "upload" bandwidth?

The answer is simple: asyncronous services, such as the web surfing or streaming a movie, are mostly "download" services, while the upload part is very minimal. Syncronous services, on the other hand, are services that require both download and upload bandwidth to stay syncronized. Guess what? MMORPG are generally all syncronous services.

What happens if you saturate your upload bandwidth, even if you still have a good 20Mbps download speed? Asyncronous services will continue to work, so you can still navigate the web, BUT, syncronous services will starts suffering heavy lag, even if your download bandwidth is very big.

Now, how can I saturate my upload bandwidth? Another simple answer: contrary to the old times, when we were almost alone within our connection, now we have wi-fi machines everywhere.

Now most of people have telephones and tablets always connected to the internet. And almost everyone now uses cloud services.

Try to have an iphone with cloud activated (by default it is) with backup activated thru cloud, and then try to play lotro: you'll get a bad surprise, as soon as the iphone goes stand-by and start it's cloud service. Lotro will simply stop working, ping service to any server will never get an answer but you can still surf the web!

This is only one case, as example, but actually, there are many ways to saturate the upload bandwidth: torrents, clouds, webuploaders...

If you cannot assign specific bandwidth usage (on cell phones, you cannot, atm) you'll get trouble.

So, when you start playing a MMO, you should be sure no cell phones or tablets that's on your lan have cloud services activated (at least the backup service for the apple stuff should always be off).

Generally you know if people at home starts torrents and such, and you can stop them doing it while you play. But many people are unaware that all the cell phones and tablets, even in stand-by, can be a potential source of network problems, for any syncronized service you need.

I'm not a native english speaking, so I apologize in advance for any mistake.

[pvdtheking]

So if it's admittedly your computer that's the issue, why do people complain? They would only have themselves to blame.

Ok smart ###, i have a gaming laptop....and its good enough to run the following games on ultra graphics, with no lag:

Crysis 3
Skyrim
Far cry 3
Tomb raider
TESO beta
SWTOR
The rift
WOW
Theres loads more, but you get the point. And in no way is it my internet connection i have fibre optics.

And guess what happens when i switch to dx11 and ultra settings on lotro....major lag, fram rate freezes....go to the ettens and you can forget about doing anything. So its not peoples computers, its the game/servers or whatever.

[Nymphonic]

Yeah, sorry, but point 1. is not lag. 3. is not lag. This is a software issue, and/or a database issue, but no actual lag. Lag is purely your latency, and those issues have nothing to do with latency and everything with the LOTRO engine.


Diablo II used to have awesomely evil lag spikes in the early versions, getting abouve level 50 in hardcore mode was sheer impossible due to the oft 10 second round trips to the servers on battle.net . I once had a 7 minute episode of 5-10 second ping... and I was out in Act IV somewhere... needless to say my hardcore character died, but it took a good 10 minutes before she dropped.

My point is though that anyone that plays MMOs will have issues of some kind, whether it is software, connection or anything else.

[Redit]

so I've been playing for 3 years now and I've always experienced horrible lag up till the point I basically quit the game a few months ago because of it. then I get a new game that forces me to get a computer I've been dreaming to get. I got it played that game and was happy then I came back to lotro and was floored and amazed at what a difference it made.

I was able to run full speed on a war steed through edoras without getting caught on something, no lag, completely smooth with very high graphics settings.
I ran through fangorn forest on a warsteed without much difficulty either.

my computer specs are a little insane but it did the job
AMD 8 core processor 3.5 ghz each
16 gb ram
1600 mhz memory speed
geforce GT 630
4 gb video memory

[Sapience]

There's a lot of very good information in this thread, so let me try to break some of it down.

I lag in large groups when there are a lot of fire effects from mobs, or LM fire/RK fire/minstrel effects. Add multiples of those in the moors or in a raid and pretty much everybody I know lags.

How nice that you have a custom gaming computer. Not everybody does.

What you just did was perfectly describe client side bottle necking caused by exceeding the CPU/GPU ability to render all the additional things that are going on. By keeping your graphics settings at the same levels you use when solo, you are asking the hardware to do dramatically more work. The on screen characters and/or other content (densely decorated areas and heavily detailed interiors for example) make it worse. You'd be surprised how well you can often mitigate this by having a set of "raid" settings you change to when you do these things. You can disable most effect, turn off floating damage, portrait animations, etc. It does help a lot. In roughly 15 years of playing MMOs I've never lead a raid in any MMO that didn't start with a "Turn off XYZ settings and set your graphics to XYZ settings." Even on consoles now that I think about it.

So it is highly unlikely that all 15 had computer problems to created the same lag. Granted there are many variables that can cause lag such as client side and internet lag. I think if you try to play beyond what your GPU can comfortably handle then you can cause lag. But there is some coding issues as well. I think it is an unrealistic thing to say that LOTRO is not the cause of some of the lag (they have on many occasions over the nearly 7 years noted the lag and their attempt at fixing it). Back in the day when we went into the Watcher raid we had to be sure that post processing was turned off (this was more or less because of visuals and what we needed to see), we had to make sure the cloaks were turned off and a few other tips so that it would be less laggy. I remember times when running the Turtle (on a very good PC at the time and good internet) that I would get caught in skill lags and nearly miss the fight. The lag isn't as bad as it used to be. But it is still shows up. Narrowing it down to the cause is always tricky but to say that it is totally Turbines fault or the user is wrong.

This is more or less what I was saying above. Turing off some features does usually help. Hold that thought on the 15 computers at once thing though... I'll get right back to it!

I have built my own PC's for years (fast ones) and I have a fast internet connection via cable = I get lag. I don't get it often but it does happen.
Moors raid... instance raid... The lag isn't always there and it isn't always crippling but it can be a real pain in the behind at times.
If "my end" of the game requirements were the only factor in lag then I should never experience it = therefore I can only conclude that there is a Turbine side "problem" of some sort.

And the reason why (and to answer the 15 computers poitn above) is that the game is always trying to sync everyone so you all see the same things at the same time. So actually one PC out of sync CAN cause the other 14 to 'lag' or wait or throw off the sync. Why.....

I want to point out a problem that many inexperienced (in term of network knowledge) people may be unaware of.

Speaking of network latency (i'm not going to speak about graphical issues or low-end computers), often there is a reference to the download bandwidth at disposal to the user, as a possible source of latency. Number of hops, network routers and server loads all can be the origin of a heavy lag at the user end. But, what people should also consider is the "upload" bandwidth, that, in most cases, it's much less than download bandwidth.
Why you should care about "upload" bandwidth?

The answer is simple: asyncronous services, such as the web surfing or streaming a movie, are mostly "download" services, while the upload part is very minimal. Syncronous services, on the other hand, are services that require both download and upload bandwidth to stay syncronized. Guess what? MMORPG are generally all syncronous services.

What happens if you saturate your upload bandwidth, even if you still have a good 20Mbps download speed? Asyncronous services will continue to work, so you can still navigate the web, BUT, syncronous services will starts suffering heavy lag, even if your download bandwidth is very big.

Now, how can I saturate my upload bandwidth? Another simple answer: contrary to the old times, when we were almost alone within our connection, now we have wi-fi machines everywhere.

Now most of people have telephones and tablets always connected to the internet. And almost everyone now uses cloud services.

Try to have an iphone with cloud activated (by default it is) with backup activated thru cloud, and then try to play lotro: you'll get a bad surprise, as soon as the iphone goes stand-by and start it's cloud service. Lotro will simply stop working, ping service to any server will never get an answer but you can still surf the web!

This is only one case, as example, but actually, there are many ways to saturate the upload bandwidth: torrents, clouds, webuploaders...

If you cannot assign specific bandwidth usage (on cell phones, you cannot, atm) you'll get trouble.

So, when you start playing a MMO, you should be sure no cell phones or tablets that's on your lan have cloud services activated (at least the backup service for the apple stuff should always be off).

Generally you know if people at home starts torrents and such, and you can stop them doing it while you play. But many people are unaware that all the cell phones and tablets, even in stand-by, can be a potential source of network problems, for any syncronized service you need.

I'm not a native english speaking, so I apologize in advance for any mistake.

...and that's how 1 PC can screw up 14 others due to a sync issue. You get 15 people on 15 PCs with 15 different connections, the guy with the worst connect is probably going to dictate the experience of the other 14 when it comes to sync related trouble. LOTRO actually has a huge degree of latency resistance. The game isn't a twitch game so believe it or not a ping of 70 vs 150 or even 200ms (and infact even nearly double that) isn't going to impact your game too much. But, when the sync get thrown off, that tolerance drops pretty quick while everything plays catch up.

so I've been playing for 3 years now and I've always experienced horrible lag up till the point I basically quit the game a few months ago because of it. then I get a new game that forces me to get a computer I've been dreaming to get. I got it played that game and was happy then I came back to lotro and was floored and amazed at what a difference it made.

I was able to run full speed on a war steed through edoras without getting caught on something, no lag, completely smooth with very high graphics settings.
I ran through fangorn forest on a warsteed without much difficulty either.

my computer specs are a little insane but it did the job
AMD 8 core processor 3.5 ghz each
16 gb ram
1600 mhz memory speed
geforce GT 630
4 gb video memory

Odds are the "lag" you experienced was actually client side render issues if this resolved your problems. A good number of people, I know because they tell me, have much the same PC they started playing LOTRO on 6-7 years ago and they started playing with their graphics on high or better and never changed them. In those 6-7 years we've added features that now require a lot beefier machine to run at high or better than it did 6-7 years ago. My suggestion is always to set the game at the lowest possible graphics with few or now effects turned on and then slowly increase the quality until you start hitting issues, then back it off a little. Obviously you'll have to do that again when you play in groups or in more graphics intensive areas. Eventually you'll figure out what your machine can handle and what settings are good for the broadest array of conditions.

[krator916l]

I would love to see a settings manager in the game so that if you have a solo, raid, PvMP, etc.. specific settings it would be easy to switch between.

[anthonyx]

I would love to see a settings manager in the game so that if you have a solo, raid, PvMP, etc.. specific settings it would be easy to switch between.

./sarcasm It would be 100 MC for the third settings and 100 MC for any other you wanted


Actually it is a great idea. I remember this being batted around but it never caught on. I would love it especially when I play on my laptop which is sensitive.

[avengingbananaslug]

Play against a cappy/LM group in Moors and see. Cappies are currently the worst with all their buffs. I can do fine fighting a 12 man group but get 2 cappies together and game over.

LOTRO could help out a lot by reworking and reducing buff icons.