15.2 Player music

[Thorwyn99]

I cannot say that there wont be anymore complaints on that front until I hear how my heavy metal songs sound with the new lute, I will test some of them tomorrow to figure that one out.

Also....Bunnys....that is all. /bow

Uh I sure hope they aren't breaking them Metal songs, after all those are the best ones! IMO anyways :P

[robbie1435]

If it's ok, I would like to make one request of the rest of the Music Community this weekend on Bullroarer.

Do not suffer any weak points. Do not let them roll out a half broken system. A few imperfections are OK, but don't let them roll out an update that will break the reason we play.

That's all I have to say. Do not think that because this is the last chance you have to test the update that you should settle for something that is, in any way, shape, or form, broken.

Thank you to all dedicated Devs and Players in building and testing this update.

~Glorgnorbor

[Vyvyanne]

OK so the newest version is being put on Bullroarer as we speak. It should be available in the next few hours. Please take a look at it this weekend and let me know if you are still seeing the dropped notes issue and give me an idea of the number of instruments, types, etc playing when you hear it.

Thank you!
Vyv

[Emere]

OK so the newest version is being put on Bullroarer as we speak. It should be available in the next few hours. Please take a look at it this weekend and let me know if you are still seeing the dropped notes issue and give me an idea of the number of instruments, types, etc playing when you hear it.

Thank you!
Vyv

We are most happy to do that. Just waiting for our launchers to be able to update
Sure hope there are bunny pets this time O.O :P

[Emere]

OK so the newest version is being put on Bullroarer as we speak. It should be available in the next few hours. Please take a look at it this weekend and let me know if you are still seeing the dropped notes issue and give me an idea of the number of instruments, types, etc playing when you hear it.

Thank you!
Vyv

The dropped note issue still exists. We tested two songs which we know it was dropping notes before on Bullroarer but play fine on Landroval.
One song had three lutes and a theorbo. The other song which is also posted here with examples: http://www.twitch.tv/darklyshining/c/5917209 uses three lutes, theorbo, harp, and bagpipe. I will also bug report it from the site and send the .abc for both songs we tested today.

On a side note,
I looked around but for some reason, I still haven't found cosmetic bunny pets. Now after seeing the easter egg of Rabbit of Caerbannog in Enedwaith which is due west of Oth Dunhoth, I was sure they would have put them into the game by now. *makes sad face*
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[SpiritusLOTRO]

OK so the newest version is being put on Bullroarer as we speak. It should be available in the next few hours. Please take a look at it this weekend and let me know if you are still seeing the dropped notes issue and give me an idea of the number of instruments, types, etc playing when you hear it.

Thank you!
Vyv

Emere (Fincin) covered the note drop issue. I'll be looking over dynamics and timbre tomorrow when I'm able.

[Lolorndinfey]

Server time 01:27am, Jan 30th.

Just completed a test of the current volume levels for U15.2.3. For your consideration;

(OTM = on the money, NC = no change) where OTM has a tolerance of +/- 3-5%, close enough to previous levels.

Volume tweaks improved by one setting. still not matching LIVE
Clarinet bad note fixed
Bagpipe playing properly
Dropped note occurred during solo play.

Not perfect, but workable.

U15.2.3 is definitely an improvement. Best version so far.

Recommended volume adjustments compared to LIVE levels in volume.

Lute -1 to -2 settings (-20%), improvement of +1*
Harp NC
Theorbo -2 settings (-30%), improvement of +1*
Flute -1 to -2 settings ( -20%), improvement of +1*
Clarinet OTM**
Horn OTM
Bagpipe OTM
Pibgorn OTM***
Drum OTM
Cowbell (+1) No change from U15.2, cleaner sample vs U15.1

* This pass they've obviously examined the upper limit of decibels in each sample, but what I've termed the mean average in each note sample previously, I'd like to use another word.

Energy.

Each Lute, Theorbo, Flute sample is a higher fidelity, crisper, shift away from bass. So what happens when you play a note side by side U15.1 and U15.2? The new note sounds more shrill, better fidelity, less bass, aka, higher sample rate. An identical .abc note played on both systems, and you'd want to tone down the volume of the new note by 1 settings. Why? It's the energy. higher sample. more energy in the note, thus resulting in a louder perceived volume. You can see it in the equalizer bar graphs. wider curve, shifted 500to 2KHz higher. More area in the bell curve represents a louder volume.

** Clarinet bad note fixed. more muffled than LIVE? Softer attack. More organ like, and richer in tone. Clorgan?

*** Pibgorn can substitute flute written songs. A result of the octave range fix in the new system. No breaths, or huffs. It has a soft attack, so no staccato notes. Some of the riffs, esp in the mid range, are pretty sweet. With apologies to Dave Brubek. thought I'd try "Take Five". It's the new 50% tone trumpet in the new system. A clarinet/coronet hybrid. Cloronet?

Additional observations;

Theorbo more crisp. centered around 750Hz, old sample, muffled in comparison, centered around 500Hz.

Lute 14KHz in the new sample, not often hit in the old sample. Quirky tone notes still there. I like it, but others obviously has objections.

--------------------

On the dropped note issue. I was getting first notes dropped on first pass playback. I stopped. repeat start, and the problem goes away. I still highly suspect it's a caching issue. Some of the test songs were polyphonic, multiple chords.

What happens when you repeat play the song. Does the dropped note go away? Does it play properly the 2nd time you play the same song?

Caching issue? big file size samples that need to be cached first? Only a guess.

______________

Here's the dilemma. You have 5 instruments that match live volumes, and 4 do not, of which lute, flute are widely used. You can tone down player music slider, but that'll kill the instruments that match LIVE volumes. A conundrum for band multi-part songs.

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

Here's the dilemma. You have 5 instruments that match live volumes, and 4 do not, of which lute, flute are widely used. You can tone down player music slider, but that'll kill the instruments that match LIVE volumes. A conundrum for band multi-part songs.

So it's basically the same as last time? Is it at least possible to get the mismatch within a few lvls of volume (like from +fff+ to +f+ or so) ? That was the main issue last time because even with shifting volumes it was impossible to do a lot of songs that had flute in it, the difference of lute and flute was like from +ppp+ to +ff+.

The other thing with the dropped notes would mean that we can't play tunes in large bands anymore and it will be quite detrimental for orchestral projects like Lilikates 24-musicians orchestra TSO.
It was already working along the limits of the lotro music system, but if those limits are severely reduced such things don't make sense anymore, which is quite sad actually.

So do we really want this as our new music system? As far as I understand it only solo or duo artists will be mostly ok with those changes, whereas our musical band community will suffer a lot.

I guess it's out of our hands anyway, brace and prepare yourselves for the impact my fellow musical friends all over the different servers, it's time to be strong!

[Lolorndinfey]

Not exactly. U15 was blown out with roughly 3 setting differences in volume with winds, and 1 setting in strings, resulting in a 4 setting difference between, for eg. flute, and lute. U15.2.3 is more like 0 and -2 (at it's worst) needed between lute, flute, theo on one side, and all the rest except cowbell on the others (+1 needed on cowbell). When dealing with quieter songs, the difference is -1 and 0(+1 cowbell).

So if you're a cup half full type of person, this is twice better. If you're a cup half empty type of person, lute/flute/theo are blasting away. heh

From what I could tell, the clarinet and bagpipe are playing properly. The dropped note issue showing up on solo play with a heavy polyphonic test song was worrisome. The fact that it goes away on repeat play, means there's one possible workaround. A warmup song basically filled with the entire octave range of notes for each instrument. A caching song.

Remember I'm just one player testing. Others testing, and the overall trend of feedback will decide the fate of the music system in U15.2.3

I vote yes, with the caveat that U16 will address isues further.

[Elwenwing]

The new update on the Bulroarer server is a step in the right direction I think!

Personally I still feel very much divided about having the new instruments replacing the old ones though.

The pros of the new system as far as I'm concerned are:
- Very nice sounding wind instruments
- Better quality sound samples

The cons:
- The new lute! Perhaps I should clarify that I do know what a real lute sounds like and the new lute does a better job at sounding like one! But for general purposes I personally feel the old lute (more guitar like) has a better sound for most music! It would ease my mind if both sounds can kept be in the new music system. Also two notes of the new lute still sound very odd to me on Bulroarer! That would be the notes B3 and B4.
- Dropped notes. This is something that needs to be solved before the new system goes live I think.

So do we really want this as our new music system?

In the end I would think the answer would be yes!

But I agree with Lolorndinfey. U16 will have to keep improving things. If Turbine sees this as a final change to the system, which would be understandable from a developer's perspective, then I'm inclined to say leave the old system in place!

[Linawillow]

Personal observations from playing in a 4-hobbit band today:

Volumes are currently rather nice on Bullroarer. You can run live-based multipart abc songs on Bullroarer and it will sound good. There is absolutely nothing like the overpowering imbalance we had with U15. You might want to tinker a bit with your file to get your exact volume sweet spot based on personal preferences, but it is great to have flutes and theorbos it is possible to hear now.

Wind instruments generally sound lovely and mostly in-tune. There are a few squeaky and breathy notes.
Lute and theorbo has a few odd notes (leftovers from the new harp, it sounds like) and some twanginess and buzz here and there, as noted earlier in the thread.
Harp is as it is on live, with the flaws we have there already (variable volumes note for note, and not least some abrupt, cut-off sustains).

The problem is the note cutoff/dropped notes. It is quite noticeable in some songs even in a 4-musician band, especially songs with busy lute parts. Play the lute part with harp instead, and the problem goes away. Use the theorbo instead, and notes are dropped again.

[Orlor]

The other thing with the dropped notes would mean that we can't play tunes in large bands anymore and it will be quite detrimental for orchestral projects like Lilikates 24-musicians orchestra TSO.

Nevermind big pieces. I can't play my 4 piece Guitar Boogie because of the dropped notes.

[robbie1435]

Me thinks this might have to be pushed back to U16.

[SpiritusLOTRO]

Regarding 29JAN15 15.2 beta build (Version 1502.0056.1276.4047)

Upfront Verdict: The 15.2 beta music system is not ready for a live release. The dropped note issue is the most upfront dealbreaker. Also, with the new build, none of the off-timbre notes have been addressed (See: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...06#post7306606) and several new ones are now audible.

Upfront Recommendation: Keep the 15.1 system for 15.2 and delay release of the update on live until at least the dropped note issue is addressed. For me, regarding this current beta build, the threshold of "worth adjusting ABC files" has not been reached. And generally speaking, my bar for that is a lot lower than many.

Positives: While I could nitpick -- and I do think more refinement is needed -- the overall dynamic balance of this beta build is in my opinion better than the live system. Which does mean it is different than the live version, but I'm solidly in the camp of welcoming a system with more uniform dynamic balance rather than attempting to recreate the poor balance that is currently in place.

Timbre Details: To repeat, none of the off-timbre notes (See: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...06#post7306606) have been addressed and several new ones are now audible. The exception is Flute D#4 seems to be in much better dynamic balance with the rest of the flute notes. The additional off-timbre notes are annotated below:

Clarinet
----------
A3 - Has what I would describe as an odd warble on the attack
A4 - Has a metallic "trumpet-like" timbre that sustains throughout the note

Flute
---------
B2 - Noticeably breathy compared to the other notes
C#3 - Same as Flute B2

Theorbo
----------
C#3 - Now has the similar "pitch shift" issue other notes have; as if a finger vibrato has been applied to the note.
F3 - Same as C#3
A#3 - Same as C#3
C4 - Tone is "cut off." The sustain is noticeably short compared to the other notes and the tone ends abruptly rather than the natural fade the others exhibit.

============================== ==========

I would again like to thank the community team for their excellent communication with everyone. I'd also like to thank the development team for continuing to try to make the music system better. I think, given one more beta testing cycle, we can nail this thing proper.

[Thurallor]

Nevermind big pieces. I can't play my 4 piece Guitar Boogie because of the dropped notes.

As far as I know, this requires fewer musicians than any of the other songs people have reported having problems with. Thus it would be valuable to the developers as a "minimal test case"; it will make it easier for them to reproduce the problem in-house. So I hope you will send it to them with a bug report. And if anyone else finds (or can contrive) a failing case with fewer than three musicians, that would be even better.

[Emere]

As far as I know, this requires fewer musicians than any of the other songs people have reported having problems with. Thus it would be valuable to the developers as a "minimal test case"; it will make it easier for them to reproduce the problem in-house. So I hope you will send it to them with a bug report. And if anyone else finds (or can contrive) a failing case with fewer than three musicians, that would be even better.

We already sent the file to this song via bug report, along with my John Henry 6 part song. I am willing to send as many .abc's as they need to get this fixed. Shoot, I would be willing to log onto BR and show them if they ask for it. My time is quite free so I have much opportunity to assist should they desire it

[Orlor]

As far as I know, this requires fewer musicians than any of the other songs people have reported having problems with. Thus it would be valuable to the developers as a "minimal test case"; it will make it easier for them to reproduce the problem in-house. So I hope you will send it to them with a bug report. And if anyone else finds (or can contrive) a failing case with fewer than three musicians, that would be even better.

Already done. Sent it to them minutes after testing it.

[Swagman]

I did some testing on BR today and as far as I'm concerned volumes are just fine now. Fix a few off notes and the whole dropped notes thing and I think it's good to go.

[Tulipan]

After trying 1- to 4-part pieces on Bullroarer my conclusion is I like the winds, drums, theorbo very much. And some arrangements which sound strange on the existing live system sounds beautiful on Bullroarer.

So things are looking good to me - there are however issues which I feel need addressing and I do hope the devs will iterate these changes until they all shine! Leaving the more technical issues to other posters who have more eggs-pertise in musical matters than me, my main complaint is that the lute has been neutered. Which is of course a subjective thing but after all beauty is in the ears of the listener.

The lute lacks spice, it seems it has trouble chugging out a beat, so it is going to be hard to get the lute to rock it! And it is not only rock, also flamencoes, jazz, swing pieces suffer under this new lute(1).

I'm all for a clearer lute sound with sustained note ability but please keep iterating over this until the lute is once again a very versatile instrument.

It's fine with me if the new system requires us to revisit existing arrangements if that is the price we have to pay for a significantly improved music system.

Also I should like the Harp improved - the 'old' harp is working, but is muddy and sometimes goes 'plonk'.

(1) And I do not care if it is lore-breaking, really if that is to be considered any genre from Renaissance music and until present day music is anachronistic in the LotR setting. But it is good that we can play music we (and our audiences) identify with and also I do not think the day(s)-long festivals could draw such crowds if we were limited to only play British-centered medieval music.

Finally regarding the off-topic matter of bunnies, I'd much rather have pet kittehs for everyone than bunnies! Rabbits are for eating, really.

[Lolorndinfey]

Sorry to repeat, but this issue seems to be gaining momentum in importance.

What happens to a song you play first time dropping notes, on second playback?

Does it also drop notes on second playback?

This is an open question to my fellow musicians.

[Swagman]

Finally regarding the off-topic matter of bunnies, I'd much rather have pet kittehs for everyone than bunnies! Rabbits are for eating, really.

I told ya so Fincin! Although come to think of it, they say cats taste like rabbit. *gets out his stew pot and waits*

[Tybur]

Thank you for sending in your bugs regarding dropped notes and including the abc files where you see the problem most. We have received abc files for Guitar boogie and John Henry and I and my fellows in QA will enjoy listening to them over and over until we can pinpoint the issue :-). Please keep the information flowing - we really appreciate it.
- Tybur (LOTRO Quality Assurance)

[Swagman]

Thank you for sending in your bugs regarding dropped notes and including the abc files where you see the problem most. We have received abc files for Guitar boogie and John Henry and I and my fellows in QA will enjoy listening to them over and over until we can pinpoint the issue :-). Please keep the information flowing - we really appreciate it.
- Tybur (LOTRO Quality Assurance)

Thanks for the update Tybur, and thanks for the hard work you guys are putting in on this

[Emere]

The lute lacks spice, it seems it has trouble chugging out a beat, so it is going to be hard to get the lute to rock it! And it is not only rock, also flamencoes, jazz, swing pieces suffer under this new lute(1).

I'm all for a clearer lute sound with sustained note ability but please keep iterating over this until the lute is once again a very versatile instrument.


Finally regarding the off-topic matter of bunnies, I'd much rather have pet kittehs for everyone than bunnies! Rabbits are for eating, really.

I agree about the lute to a certain extent. It plays well enough for most songs, but the versatility is lost on Bullroarer right now. Its great for many songs but the loss of bass takes much life out of my heavy metal songs. I think if the banjo string is replaced, and a bit more bass volume is added, it will work just fine. Hence why I agree about having two or more lutes. If we could have the new one, which does for the most part sound incredible, and still keep our old one, maybe a different icon for them, and later when able, add a banjo sounding lute with perhaps a more banjo like icon, we would be very very happy I'm sure.

As for the bunny being food, you are completely wrong. Rabbits are for food, hares, and coneys as well. But if you give them a name, then they become a bunny an bunnys ain' fer eatin!
I also must agree about the kittys. Having a kitty pet would be my second choice, right behind bunnys. I of course still want a mumabunny mount ((bunny/mumakil hybrid)) for which to trample Mr Daylak with but I would just settle for bunny an kitty cosmetic pets Oh maybe, for mounts, a rather large Rhosgobel rabbit mount. Yup, Bunny mounts would be nice!

[Emere]

Sorry to repeat, but this issue seems to be gaining momentum in importance.

What happens to a song you play first time dropping notes, on second playback?

Does it also drop notes on second playback?

This is an open question to my fellow musicians.

I have not noticed any difference myself. I was playing a song when Orladan logged on, so I requeued the song and it played the same way, notes missing. We did notice however, that if you stand far side of the Theorbo, you would hear less of it, and if you stood next to it, you would hear more of it, but the dropped notes still existed.