A big Thank You to Vastin

[Mirkyl]

I am happy that hardcore fans are content.
On behaf of my family then I can thank Vastin for destroying the base feel of Hunter and LM
I can thank him for concentrating on so called "balancing skills" instead of repairing bugs that existed so long.
And the beauty of misinformation as "making hunter more solo friendly". Remember that not everyone here are 8 yrs old, and
people can actually think.
From my point of view Vastin has not done anything right and honestly the changes are more game breaking than before.
My 5 cents...

[dselden]

I am happy that hardcore fans are content.
On behaf of my family then I can thank Vastin for destroying the base feel of Hunter and LM
I can thank him for concentrating on so called "balancing skills" instead of repairing bugs that existed so long.
And the beauty of misinformation as "making hunter more solo friendly". Remember that not everyone here are 8 yrs old, and
people can actually think.
From my point of view Vastin has not done anything right and honestly the changes are more game breaking than before.
My 5 cents...

Could you give an example of how the changes are game breaking? For instance, barrage before the update went to a bugged T5 instead of stopping at T3 if you knew how to tier it up correctly. Therefore you could argue that barrage wasn't working as intended before this update. I haven't noticed any major bugs like that yet this update.

[Skyfoot]

...he really went above and beyond here in terms of communication and transparency.

I guess if you are comparing him to the other devs (who provided no feedback at all), then...sure.
It's a shame we have to set the bar so low, but this game tends to do that to people's expectations/standards.

[jjgarner]

Could you give an example of how the changes are game breaking? For instance, barrage before the update went to a bugged T5 instead of stopping at T3 if you knew how to tier it up correctly. Therefore you could argue that barrage wasn't working as intended before this update. I haven't noticed any major bugs like that yet this update.

You're forgetting about all the players who barely know what 'T3' and 'T5' even mean. We just want to have a fun time in Middle Earth. These elite questions are meaningless to us. If you're a top player and think blue Hunter is too easy, don't play it. But the rest of us have been screwed over because we're not the people who take part in betas and have the ear of the devs.

[dselden]

You're forgetting about all the players who barely know what 'T3' and 'T5' even mean. We just want to have a fun time in Middle Earth. These elite questions are meaningless to us. If you're a top player and think blue Hunter is too easy, don't play it. But the rest of us have been screwed over because we're not the people who take part in betas and have the ear of the devs.

1.) If you state something is gamebreaking, provide evidence.

2.) I'm sorry you aren't having as much fun with blue line. Hopefully you can find a way to keep having fun on hunter, whether by changing up your blue line setup or trying to go red line.

3.) Beta is open to all players. All players are welcome to go onto Bullroarer, test, and provide feedback when it's open.

[Madmanthief]

Sorry, but transparency ? What a crock. He only talked to those people who thought the way he did. That's not transparency, that's selective ignoring of the rest of the player base that didn't think the way he did.

You want transparency, you need to see how Torc and Steelstar communicated with people on class updates in DDO. They at least listened to and considered what everyone had to say. Then explained their reasoning on certain issues.

[Osweld]

1.) If you state something is gamebreaking, provide evidence.

2.) I'm sorry you aren't having as much fun with blue line. Hopefully you can find a way to keep having fun on hunter, whether by changing up your blue line setup or trying to go red line.

3.) Beta is open to all players. All players are welcome to go onto Bullroarer, test, and provide feedback when it's open.

He will not find a way, no alternatives actually - I believe me, he and many others will leave game, the amount of money devs get will decrease and then someday they either will buff all classes to play faster and probably will return classes like hunters for the newcomers and those who like casual gameplay or they will be phucked up.

I bet beta players are like 1-3% of total amount of players - I don't think they are eligible to decide for everyone

[Decrepify]

Sorry, but transparency ? What a crock. He only talked to those people who thought the way he did. That's not transparency, that's selective ignoring of the rest of the player base that didn't think the way he did.

Sure...only those he agrees with...plenty of ignoring done.......must....be swimming against the currents here....

He responded to every properly structured feedback that had proof, gave his explanations and reasons in the Guardians feedback thread. He also wasn't afraid to cut back on some things we held dear and stood his ground for it, citing valid oversights and overpowered mechanics. To me, that kind of a dev is something we needed all along...if we only had 1 for each class, this game would be in such a better place.

[Decrepify]

I bet beta players is like 1-3% of total amount of players - I don't think they are eligible to decide for everyone

Well, if you bothered logging in, you'd see the E&G tavern pretty much full during peak times, even on working days...people were actively fighting over dummies sometimes...I think there was a lot more than 1-3% involved.

[Lord.Funk]

If you don’t agree with the feedback given you can hardly blame that on Vastin,

On this I agree. when it came to adding the Gorgoroth Lootboxes I blame staff and leadership, as no one really asked for them yet they were added. But that's another topic.

As far as this update I don't blame staff. Well a bit. That has to do with the times Bullrorarer was up. I often couldn't even find proper info in advance on when it was to be up, for how long etc. Mostly it was in the middle of the week (not a big problem for me personally, but it is for many others) but that You had no idea when it was to be up and the very short windows You ended up with being able to test anything. On the last day it finally suited my schedule. I updated to later be able to log in. I moved over some chars to be able to test things with acctual in-game gear and builds. I also wanted to check ut the changes to landscape in lower areas. Ride around and test so there where no places You could get stuck etc. I had barely started to try and find the changed areas. As there was very little that hinted on exactly where they landscape changes were made, except some images in the forums of Old Forest and that work-site outside combe. Then I had to do some real life stuff. Logged back in and got the messsage that the servers where being taken down in 1 hour. Never had the chance to really test anything. Prior to that it simply had not been within my schedule. Not to mention it was during festivals and festival encores which also means the little time many have they use on that as it's time-limited events. They don't have time for both.

As for the rest I do not blame staff. I blame the players that did give the feedback as it is kind of clear which type of players that was/is. The ones that can play in the middle of the week. Even weeknights. The ones that have been posting time after time that things are too easy and faceroll. The ones that have been implying or straight up saying that Blue hunter needs a nerf etc. Usually the same type of players who don't care about festivals as well, so it didnt matter to them that festivals was on on live. They only tested the new festival instances on bullrorarer as that is their prefered game-style, instances and raids. Even those they made mockery of that the new Festival skirmish was faceroll. If not on forums then in YouTube videos I've watched.

Those are the ones now responsible for these specific changes.

I guess You could also blame staff for not realizing this. It's like when a DJ in a club falls into the trap of listening only to the cool crowd that often surround the DJ booth. The so called "experts" on what music is cool and inn. Forgetting the rest that hang around the bar or there to pick up a girl, guy whatever. The ones acctually paying the bills by spending money. It's a mistake to only play the music for a few select cool inn elite people. It's a common trap for DJ's to fall in. Often as the DJ's want to be accepted, approved and worshipped by that little click of inn people and belong in that crowd. An experienced DJ who's been around the block, have often learned to not just listen to them. Sure give them a few tunes. But read the audience, look around past the DJ booth, even past the dancefloor at times. See the whole locale. How do You get the ones that don't dance to also still enjoy themselves and be in a good mood os they come back and spend money. Most won't even come up and bother the DJ but they will definetly leave or not come back if they don't like what he or she plays. The atmospher in the whole club will suffer if You do it wrong. You know You do it right when You even get the ones around the bar dig into the music and wave their hands even if they don't go up on the dancefloor.

[Lord.Funk]

3.) Beta is open to all players. All players are welcome to go onto Bullroarer, test, and provide feedback when it's open.

As I mentioned in my reply above. The schedule this time was really weird. Often badly announced. You had to follow the forum closely and even then it was just that a new thread was started with build xx.x.x and not really saying when exactly it would be up for or how long. Mostly in the middle of the weeks. Also on top of festivals and festival encores on live, which are also time limited events. That resulted in a very specific type of players being able to be on and giving their feedback. As we can now see from the result. then of course a few gamers with YouTube channels as they only do it as they know it gives a few extra views to show upcoming content. The ones that work or have other things in life that they must attend, the ones that have a few hours here and there never really gets a chance to participate. I have no idea why it's always so stressed to get these updates out. And this time was kinda worse for many, with it mostly beeing in the middle of the week and little to no advanced notice. You might finally notice that oh a new build is out. Then think I'll test that later or tomorrow when I have time. Then realize it was soon to go offline or already offline again.

As a matter of fact I read posts saying that they should hold back on this update as the changes was not well implemented yet. Even simple bugs like instruments displaying wrong in the character screen is still there on live now. Yet they simply had to roll it out.

The only thing that seemed to take over the conversation at the end was the raiders complaints about the new pick a mount box. Not even a random lottery type of lootbox but one You could buy with in-game currency. A box where You could acctually pick the mount You wanted not be left to the usual casino/gamble mechanics. That upset the raiders, that now anyone could get the mounts they had "worked" so hard to get and they would not feel "special" anymore if anyone could get it. So they had to remove or change that. That took over almost the whole debate. Almost as if it was there just to do that and hide someting else or divert the debate to focus on that. I'm not saying it was but it sure looked funny when readiung all those triggered and upset raiders over that box. Cosmetic mounts, when the same people usually frowns at cosmetics and fluff and say that is for the "casuals". That sure made me laugh. Obviosly that was more important to fix before rollout than bugs and badly implemented "balance" changes that has now upset all the other players when it hit them.

[DKenny]

He was constantly in the beta thread discussing the tweaks he made with players and responding to feedback. If you have a problem with the new Hunter the problem doesn’t lie with Vastin, it lies with the players who didn’t test and give feedback.

Again, it is not the responsibility of players to test changes before they are made live. If no players were able / willing to test the changes to blue line hunter, then the changes to blue line hunter should not have been made, simple as that. The apparently unintended change to blindside, whereby it now consumes focus rather than building it, is a perfect example of lack of testing. The fact is those who wanted these changes only cared about red line and didn't give a damn what was done to blue, as along as blue did less dps than red. The cooldown added to barrage 3 was a bad idea from the start, and was obviously a bad idea. Anyone who actually plays blue line hunter knew very well what a terrible impact it would have. That was stated repeatedly. The cooldown was changed from 20 sec to 15 sec, which has little impact on the devastating impact on blue line play. No, the problem very much lies with Vastin, for choosing the form of the crippling nerf to blue line and for only listening to feedback from a select group of players while completely ignoring others. Anyone who continues to play the game going forward should simply realize that their concerns will be completely ignored if those concerns differ from the views of the select group of insiders.

[DKenny]

If you don’t agree with the feedback given you can hardly blame that on Vastin, he really went above and beyond here in terms of communication and transparency.

Not surprizing you would have that view, since you're one of the ones who wanted these changes. On the other hand, objections, such as pointing out the obvious fact that the barrage cooldown and the stripping out of focus gathering from blue would ruin it were completely ignored. So as long as your feedback was of the forum "please make red a bit better, go ahead ruin blue even more" there was a response. Alternatives to the devastating barrage cooldown were consistently ignored.

[DKenny]

Given the theme of the thread, I'll offer my "thank you" to Vastin as well. Your changes, to blue line hunter in particular, were a major contributing factor to me quitting the game. So congratulations and keep up the good work.

[Decrepify]

Given the theme of the thread, I'll offer my "thank you" to Vastin as well. Your changes, to blue line hunter in particular, were a major contributing factor to me quitting the game. So congratulations and keep up the good work.

If you cannot see the forest for the trees....

[Mirkyl]

*edited*

[DKenny]

If you cannot see the forest for the trees....

Yes, I guess it's out with the old and in with the new. Let's see if you're around for 10 years as I have been.

[Mirkyl]

If you cannot see the forest for the trees....

And 10 yrs here, 9 yrs from my wife and then you have my 2 kids, see you guys.

[jjgarner]

If you cannot see the forest for the trees....

I can see those trees. It's just that it takes my Hunter four times as long as it did last week to put the same number of arrows into one.

[Aelir]

Again, it is not the responsibility of players to test changes before they are made live.
. . .
only listening to feedback from a select group of players while completely ignoring others.
. . . Anyone who continues to play the game going forward should simply realize that their concerns will be completely ignored if those concerns differ from the views of the select group of insiders.

Nay, it's not responsibility to test changes. Neither is jumping to conclusions in a wrong thread. This thread is a thank you for the way beta feedback process was handled.

It was open beta, four weeks of testing, and despite limited Bullroarer up times, the Bullroarer feedback beta forum remains accessible 24/7 to everyone at all times. Those unable to actually test, can still see what's going on by reading others' feedback and joining the conversation. Open beta and open forum, for everyone.

Anyone who bothered to visit the Bullroarer class forums and follow the process, would notice that the feedback class threads in this beta were much more organized and on-point than in previous betas. While minstrel/warden/chamion threads received dead silence from their dev and their threads derailed, Vastin was actually participating and telling folks what to expect, what will make it in this build and what's coming, etc. Even giving reasons for why this/that changes and helping to understand the thinking process behind it. That was incredibly helpful, and I'm grateful we have a class dev who understands players' concerns. Communication is vital, it smoothed the feedback process and kept things on track.

Regardless of actual opinion about changes made - the OP is thanking Vastin for how the feedback process was handled. I completely agree and join in thanks. And I hope it continues to be as productive and involved, in future tests. Compared to how Turbine used to run their (closed!!!) class changes in beta, this is a massive breath of fresh air.

Using words like "select group of players" or "select group of insiders" is blatantly inaccurate and distorts the reality. The truth is that Bullroarer feedback forum is always open even while actual server is closed, and those who can't make it to test changes first-hand can always join the conversation about the changes on Bullroarer - while they are being worked on. Can't emphasize this enough...

Coming in this particular thread after update goes live to throw inaccurate accusations based on inaccurate assumptions is sadly counterproductive.

[Skyfoot]

If you have a problem with the new Hunter the problem doesn’t lie with Vastin, it lies with the players who didn’t test and give feedback.

Here is the problem with that assertion...(and full disclosure: other, better games have ruined LotRO for me), one of the biggest issues I have here is that the devs don't play these classes (let alone, the game). For you to put any blame on the players for not doing the job of a dev is completely out of line.

Here is how it should have happened: The devs should know these classes inside and out. Their roles, the meta...all of it. Ideally, there should have been one round of BETA/BR and what we should have got is the (pre)final product of the class balance pass. All that should have been needed was additional testing to maybe adjust numbers here and there. These devs need to have a vision...an understanding of how these classes should work...and an idea how to make them fun to play. But everything that we saw transpire the past few weeks on BR should have been accomplished without the need for player involvement. This isn't some new, kick-starter MMORPG...this is an 11 year old game.

So shame on you, Joe, for attempting to place any blame on the players who are rightfully expecting this company to do the job they get paid to do.

[Zvim666]

I didn't like the 1 minute cooldown on Challenge, the reduced number of targets was fair enough.

[DKenny]

Nay, it's not responsibility to test changes. Neither is jumping to conclusions in a wrong thread. This thread is a thank you for the way beta feedback process was handled.

It was open beta, four weeks of testing, and despite limited Bullroarer up times, the Bullroarer feedback beta forum remains accessible 24/7 to everyone at all times. Those unable to actually test, can still see what's going on by reading others' feedback and joining the conversation. Open beta and open forum, for everyone.

Anyone who bothered to visit the Bullroarer class forums and follow the process, would notice that the feedback class threads in this beta were much more organized and on-point than in previous betas. While minstrel/warden/chamion threads received dead silence from their dev and their threads derailed, Vastin was actually participating and telling folks what to expect, what will make it in this build and what's coming, etc. Even giving reasons for why this/that changes and helping to understand the thinking process behind it. That was incredibly helpful, and I'm grateful we have a class dev who understands players' concerns. Communication is vital, it smoothed the feedback process and kept things on track.

Regardless of actual opinion about changes made - the OP is thanking Vastin for how the feedback process was handled. I completely agree and join in thanks. And I hope it continues to be as productive and involved, in future tests. Compared to how Turbine used to run their (closed!!!) class changes in beta, this is a massive breath of fresh air.

Using words like "select group of players" or "select group of insiders" is blatantly inaccurate and distorts the reality. The truth is that Bullroarer feedback forum is always open even while actual server is closed, and those who can't make it to test changes first-hand can always join the conversation about the changes on Bullroarer - while they are being worked on. Can't emphasize this enough...

Coming in this particular thread after update goes live to throw inaccurate accusations based on inaccurate assumptions is sadly counterproductive.

What I've said isn't inaccurate at all. Feedback worked fine, as long as you were one of the select group who was being listened to. The initial premise for blue hunter was that barrage was a "1 button rotation", which wasn't true. False premise leads to false conclusion. If there had been an actual understanding, it might have been entirely reasonable to claim that barrage was making up a disproportionate percentage of total damage. Addressing that could have been accomplished simply by reducing the amount of damage done by barrage. After all it was the massive increase to barrage damage in U19 that caused the situation in the first place. However, all the feedback accomplished was to have the devastating 20 sec cooldown reduce to an barely less devastating 15 sec cd, and a lot of focus gathering was stripped out of the blue line, or made less accessible by being moved further up the red line while worthless skills such as press onward were added to blue. All of this was clearly laid out with alternatives suggested. None of it made any difference whatsoever, not even being acknowledge. So fine, for those select few who were being listened too, maybe the feedback system worked a lot better than in the past. From my perspective, not being one of the select few, it was no different than the past.

[Vastin]

Aw man. You folks are making me blush over here.

I really love mu job and it's a great honour to be able to work with such a wonderful community, as well as all my dedicated and crafty co-workers here at SSG, many of whom have extensively helped me with these updates.

Thank you all for bearing with me patiently while I tweak, mangle, nerf - and hopefully ultimately improve - your experience in the world of LotRO.

Salutations and Cheers,

- Vastin

[HeatherA]

If you don’t agree with the feedback given you can hardly blame that on Vastin, he really went above and beyond here in terms of communication and transparency.

Then the problem apparently lies with those who know the ins and outs of how to communicate their desires to developers, and got them to nerf the one "casual player mode" class trait line. Thanks, guys, for deciding that everyone should play the game the "challenging" way. Different people want to play the game different ways, but it seems if we want to ride around the countryside and explore without dying every few minutes, we have to devote hours and hours to learning how to play our characters all over again.

You know the influx of people the game has seen over the past couple of years? It's because there's been an option for casual players to have a relatively easy time of it and play without getting frustrated. That's now been taken away from us because some people decided that their way of playing was the only way. Prepare for a drop in numbers.