IS this the (foreseeable future) end state for virtues?

[JimhadaUK]

Actually virtue cap has not always been 20. I remember times when it was in the 10s and raised with certain level raise updates. So at 120 it's clear (after their own formular of +1 per 5 levels) that virtue cap should be 24, going to 25 at lvl 121.

Thats correct, Virtue Cap at 50 was 10, and it was very difficult to achieve that.
My problem with this, people purchase +1 virtue tomes, only to now find they are worthless to that character.

If this is a direct result of not allowing LS characters to buy up to level 20, then that should apply only to that server.
If someone on the LS server buys a level 50 Gift of Valar, those +4 virtues that come with the package would take them above the maximum that anyone else on the server could achieve.
If it looks like brown, and smells like brown... usually it is brown.

[Fealegwe]

As noted in some of the posts above, this will have some unintended negative consequences, but it I still think this is another step in the progression to making LotRO a subscriber only game and getting rid of freebie LP. The Legendary server is going to become the only server in time.

i don't see how a Player can be OP when the Virtues are maxed.considering main stat only brings 2 Points of mastery. has anyone actually done the math and looked at what virtues are available in each Region?
if a Player wants to grind out the millions of Orcs slayed to get the 9, 6 or 3 extra Points of wateva then power to him or her! i would rather run an instance and get a gear piece that brings more mastery than the sum total of all the Virtues.
Level capping mastery makes no sense to me imho.

what grates my carrot is that changes are brought out and i have no idea what the reason for it is….Maybe i just failed to notice an important post on FB or somewhere

[JimhadaUK]

i don't see how a Player can be OP when the Virtues are maxed.considering main stat only brings 2 Points of mastery. has anyone actually done the math and looked at what virtues are available in each Region?

There is a large step change in virtues after level 10, then 12, 14 and 16 if I recall from memory.

Using Innocence as an example. For levels 1 through 10 it adds 81 Physical Mitigation. After that it increases 120, 140, 160, 180, 210, 240....etc...
Its quite clear that this change is to limit the power of characters on LS servers. The other option is to disallow purchasing buffs and boons on that server. *rolleyes*

[Joedangod]

Its quite clear that this change is to limit the power of characters on LS servers.

LS server is the same system as live, any problems on the LS server are also problems on live. In general people seem to be misunderstanding what has happened here. Uncapped virtues causing low level stat bloat is a problem we’ve had on live for years. The reason we’re only seeing it get changed now is because the introduction of the legacy server has changed the dev teams priorities a bit and now they’re focusing more on scaling issues that could have a negative impact on the new server.

[JimhadaUK]

In general people seem to be misunderstanding what has happened here.

Im all for them fixing stuff. Im also all for them reimbursing people who have bought +1 virtues. Mine came from free Lifetime TP, but I am sure others would be more upset having used real coin.

[Bohemond71]

Uncapped virtues causing low level stat bloat is a problem we’ve had on live for years.

I'm sure this could happen in theory, but I've never actually seen it at all. Up until f2p, in-game virtues were still useful but bloat wasn't possible. Later on, the low level challenge had become so completely non existent that even if it were possible to gain a stat bloat from virtues, it would have made no difference.

I was curious and checked in on my auto attacking champ's virtues.

He has:

Loyalty 9
Compassion 7
Fidelity 8
Zeal 5
Innocence 8


Obviously not bloated, but they were enough for me to get him to 62 mid 2015 - only auto attacking. Used no skills at all (except once when he had no choice on the dummy in the intro) from 1-62, no crafting, just dropped or quest or barter gear. Died just 5 times on the way to 62 doing most quests yellow/orange. First 8 books SoA Epics + Moria Epics.

My point isn't that virtues can't be bloated at a low level - just that they have no real impact if they are and there's not really any point fixing this problem if the lack of lower level challenge isn't also fixed.

[NavarreBlood]

LS server is the same system as live, any problems on the LS server are also problems on live. In general people seem to be misunderstanding what has happened here. Uncapped virtues causing low level stat bloat is a problem we’ve had on live for years. The reason we’re only seeing it get changed now is because the introduction of the legacy server has changed the dev teams priorities a bit and now they’re focusing more on scaling issues that could have a negative impact on the new server.

Agreed and well said. It makes no sense for a mid level character to have end game virtues. That is way OP. By stacking mitigations via virtues a mid level player can take much less damage and solo content that is designed for group play. Then you hear from these players on the boards saying the content is too easy. If devs balance content difficulty to these players then 99% of the player base at those levels gets negatively impacted and devs in charge of balancing have an impossible task.

This is a clear balancing issue and I also agree that this was spurred on by the legendary server release. But level capping virtues was necessary for level balancing of content whether or not the new server was released. This change represent a small rollback of pay to win on lower levels. Those who bought or deeded excess virtues can still can use them once their character advances to the appropriate level.

And I hope that this foreshadows more balancing updates such as a future increase in the virtue level cap - the lvl 20 cap is falling way behind the lvl 120 player base, and racial traits need some scaling love too.

[Aelbryht]

Ah yes, of course it was. *ding* Good catch and conclusion.

So this is the path forward.

Anything changed to please or fit with the Legendary Server playerbase or design will now affect all of us more or less. As I said before this sets a "bad" precedent for the future.

Heh, it's funny how I can read about this and come to the exact opposite conclusion.

To me it sets a very good precedent. There's no changing things for the benefit of the legendary server at the expense of all of the normal ones since they are all one and the same thing. Trying to ensure the level 1-50 experience plays well after all of the recent changes to stat scaling and the like is not a bad thing in of itself. It only becomes a bad thing if the legendary server leads to the experience at the 'real' cap of 120 being ignored, which hopefully won't be the case but it hasn't been looking good so far since U23.

A change like this is obviously a kick in the teeth for those who have spent time maxing out their virtues for lower level characters but then any significant overhaul would be no? Will there be outrage if the eventual imbued legendary items revamp ends up making the whole process less of a grind? I can imagine that many an LP and MC has been spent on crystals/scrolls in the current system.

What I don't understand why we can reach maxvirtuerank with 96. Eiter they should unlock rank 20 with level 120 or they should increase the max rank with 120 a bit to r22.
But if you give level based locks then the last should be at the endlevel.

It is pretty weird to finish at level 96 but maybe they plan to change or add things from level 100 onwards so they just capped virtues there at 20 for the time being. I kind of wish they would do similar with the trait trees since it becomes stupid if we just keep on getting more and more trait points with every level cap.

[Raymore]

Didn't they say there was no PvMP on the Legendary Server? So who will this affect if you had higher?

Not tested.

[Derquin]

Heh, it's funny how I can read about this and come to the exact opposite conclusion.

To me it sets a very good precedent. There's no changing things for the benefit of the legendary server at the expense of all of the normal ones since they are all one and the same thing. Trying to ensure the level 1-50 experience plays well after all of the recent changes to stat scaling and the like is not a bad thing in of itself. It only becomes a bad thing if the legendary server leads to the experience at the 'real' cap of 120 being ignored, which hopefully won't be the case but it hasn't been looking good so far since U23.

A change like this is obviously a kick in the teeth for those who have spent time maxing out their virtues for lower level characters but then any significant overhaul would be no? Will there be outrage if the eventual imbued legendary items revamp ends up making the whole process less of a grind? I can imagine that many an LP and MC has been spent on crystals/scrolls in the current system.



It is pretty weird to finish at level 96 but maybe they plan to change or add things from level 100 onwards so they just capped virtues there at 20 for the time being. I kind of wish they would do similar with the trait trees since it becomes stupid if we just keep on getting more and more trait points with every level cap.

Don't care about the virtues being this way or that but you are wrong. There are changes to all servers in benefit of the legendary - look at the change to Belfalas. Now all others low-levels have to pay MC just to prevent the players on legendary to leave that housing instance to restricted areas. Will be interesting to go around looking for more things like that…


SSG already said that they need to find a way to prevent people from getting that kick in the face when legendary items are revamped. Wish them good luck but I guess that will be another of those awkward 'oops'-moments...

[SSG_RedPanda]

My 120 Lore-master has all Virtues at 20, most with (+8) above that. I still pursue all Deeds because... they're there.

What I'm worried about, are they going to wipe out that (+8)?

No, we won't take away something you purchased. When the cap on virtues go up you'll be able to utilize those ranks.

[Derquin]

As noted in some of the posts above, this will have some unintended negative consequences, but it I still think this is another step in the progression to making LotRO a subscriber only game and getting rid of freebie LP. The Legendary server is going to become the only server in time.

From the Invitation to that Server:
Will I be able to keep playing on my non-Legendary server as well?

Yes, the Legendary server experience does not impact your ability to play on other worlds.

Will Standing Stone Games continue to develop the non-Legendary worlds?

Yes! We have no intention of adjusting our frequent, regular, and active development of the non-Legendary game worlds, and have plans for them well into the future.

Rereading those line gives me the creeps - for a Nostalgic Server being added to give more options for the players it should be completely out of the question to even consider this… shouldn't it^^

And it is wrong - the experience for roleplayers (and others) to play in Gondorian towns is already diminshed with some changes. Will be interesting to see how many more of such changes will occur… undocumented and without notice. Hey get excited to explore them.^^


Don't get me wrong. I'm all for having different choices to play according to one's preferences.

But after going through Archeage adding Fresh Start Servers again and again - mostly for people to start over and 'reliving' the past (again and again - and paying for all already bought things again and again) I have developed a quite pessimistic view of such additions to a game and the overall impact on development (for all).

System over there is somewhat different there (would go too far to extend that) - content is free, there are few account based items, most things are bought by char - (incl. costumes). Buy again, Sam...

There are no ways to get credits for the marketplace (ingame shop) except by buying them directly for yourself or indirectly by buying tradeable APEX from other players who bought them themselves with RL money.
Patron (=VIP = 2 APEX/month, roughly double the cost of normal subscription - f2p ^^) is needed for the most vital ressource there (labor) to generate offline. Or you can literally spend your time afk online trying to generate it as a f2p if you don't buy pots (credits anyone?).
You need Patron Status to place houses and pay taxes for them.

After the first Round of Fresh Start you had to make a complete new account to prevent credits/labor ressources to spill over. AH for Fresh Start was already seperate. Pay again, Sam...


Several new starts of Fresh Start Servers (and a lot of changes to gameplay and ways to generate gold (trade, crafting, gameplay) by the developer let the Legacy Servers (=old servers incl. former Fresh Start ones) become ghost towns.
A lot of things at the marketplace and other game grants had been aimed at Fresh Start - neglecting Legacy for a long time.


With open PVP in a lot of regions PVP-people were crying constantly for continued (easy) prey while at the same time flocking to player nations with mostly all other high geared people - reducing the chance to PVP on an even ground even more. But hey, it is so much easier to kill a low geared farmer and rob his trade packs for easy gold than looking for an worthy opponent...^^


There have been several (nearly yearly) server evolutions to enhance the population on Legacy (=old) Server. Only to have populations start dropping again almost immediately with the merge… Evolutions = merge of several server into a brand new one = uprooting all players to start again fighting for land they may have already spend years of time and APEX to get^^
Yes, open world housing and limited housing regions! Landrush everyone… too bad if you couldn't login, crashed or simply have a bad ping...


Fresh Starts should provide an even ground for all players to address the great gear gap in Archeage but a lot of players repeatedly made a race to the top out of any fresh start experience… nostalgic feeling of being left behind… - but hey, they asked for it...

Fresh Start = easy cash grab - but hey, players Keep asking for it even now after the latest evolution (4th?) ^^


Archeage still has quite some nice things. Trade runs on donkeys aren't that effective but cute to watch if you don't have to make the most gold out of it. Your mount follows you around as do your pets while mounted. You can ride double on some mounts. The gliding from higher spaces offers a fantastic view as does shipping around on the oceans (if you are not destroyed by PVP).

The housing there was fantastic - free placement of things, lots of stuff to put in theme.

But there is absolutely no reason for me and a lot of others to rebuild again and again after being evoluted several times and getting punished by gameplay. No more paying RL or wasting time on struggling to generate enough gold to buy APEX again and again.


Alienation a broader playerbase with a lot of overall changes can lead to them simply leaving…


As I said Lotro is different to some extend. But beware of the beginnings...

[Arnenna]

No, we won't take away something you purchased. When the cap on virtues go up you'll be able to utilize those ranks.

But, players purchased those items for immediate effect, at the time that they bought them. By the time their purchases become unlocked at later levels, they will have covered the content to earn those virtues, that they purchased, in order to avoid having to earn them.

In other words.

1. Grind for virtues is steep.
2. Buy them, to get around it.
3. Have that bought advantage removed.
4. Grind for virtues takes place anyway, as part of game process.

Wasted money.

This should be applied to the L server only, where players have not already purchased items.

[Drizzels]

Good changes but the lv cap for lower Levels is to high with the scaled virtues.

get a cap on 6-8 for lv 50 and 10 for lv 75 max.not more

for lv 115+ get new ranks like 21-24 or so.

[wispsong]

There is a large step change in virtues after level 10, then 12, 14 and 16 if I recall from memory.

Using Innocence as an example. For levels 1 through 10 it adds 81 Physical Mitigation. After that it increases 120, 140, 160, 180, 210, 240....etc...
Its quite clear that this change is to limit the power of characters on LS servers. The other option is to disallow purchasing buffs and boons on that server. *rolleyes*

Can somebody please explain to me why removing this grind from the game is bad. I read all the time that store is p2w and then people actually complain when it is taken out of the equation.

Imo, this is a good change and I hope they will do something similar for traits and ILI.

[wispsong]

But, players purchased those items for immediate effect, at the time that they bought them. By the time their purchases become unlocked at later levels, they will have covered the content to earn those virtues, that they purchased, in order to avoid having to earn them.

In other words.

1. Grind for virtues is steep.
2. Buy them, to get around it.
3. Have that bought advantage removed.
4. Grind for virtues takes place anyway, as part of game process.

Wasted money.

This should be applied to the L server only, where players have not already purchased items.

So with other words, keep the grind because people used the store to circumvent it. Basically we can't have any sales either because some people paid full price. We can't revamp ILI, traits because people used the store. People who bought the items already used them to their advantage.


4. Normal game progression for the most part does not get advanced deeds done. And the times it happens does not serve all classes equally.

[Arnenna]

Can somebody please explain to me why removing this grind from the game is bad. I read all the time that store is p2w and then people actually complain when it is taken out of the equation.

Imo, this is a good change and I hope they will do something similar for traits and ILI.

The change in itself isn't bad. the fact they are rolling it over Live, over players that already purchased the bypass for immediate effect, is really bad.

Doesn't affect me, I max my virtues through grind, never through bought bypass, but I know quite a few people that paid for it.

[Arnenna]

So with other words, keep the grind because people used the store to circumvent it. Basically we can't have any sales either because some people paid full price. We can't revamp ILI, traits because people used the store. People who bought the items already used them to their advantage.

I think you're mistaking this for a grind reduction. It's not. You will still need to cap your virtues to 20 by the time you reach end game, if you want the full advantage from them. That isn't going anywhere. All that's happening is they are bottlenecking where and when you gain advantage from earning/buying them.

For example. Before this change, if you run the content in a completionist way, by level x you'd have x rank of virtue from the deeds that you complete along the way. Now, if you run the content in a completionist way, by level x, you will have only x rank of virtue (x being the cap they impose), and anything over, will not kick in until later.

Your virtue grind . . . remains still.

[kickman77]

Ah yes, of course it was. *ding* Good catch and conclusion.

So this is the path forward.

Anything changed to please or fit with the Legendary Server playerbase or design will now affect all of us more or less. As I said before this sets a "bad" precedent for the future.

The change was simply made to fit with the Legendary Servers as some of those people have raised concerns that You could be Level 50 and have 20 virtue ranks unlocked and be OP. So this has nothing to do with buffing them or anything like that. Not originally anyway. It might get some work as a result and side effect of this attention but mainly it was done so people on the LS server wont have too high virtues at LvL 50.

Agreed this needs to be something for the LS only. Just another way the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many in Lotro...... Here is a hint, maybe listen to spock cause yall got it wrong again

[Tybur]

From the 23.1.4 patch notes,
Virtues will now cap based on your character level, while maintaining the current cap of 20. Through level 10, Virtues cap at a rank of 2. The cap increases by one rank every five character levels, reaching a maximum of 20 ranks at level 96. Virtues earned above your current max rank will apply once you reach an appropriate level (up to the absolute cap of 20).

I'm wondering if that cap of 20 is just because that's where it already was or if the plan is to effectively abandon virtues after level 96 (95?)?

It just seems like that's a fairly easy pattern to extend to the current level cap, depending on how many points of virtues are actually available.

We are not abandoning virtues. The cap of 20 does indeed reference the current virtue cap.

This change was made for several reasons, but the primary reason was to allow us to make virtues more relevant at high levels without greatly affecting balance at low - mid levels. We are currently looking to balance the stats provided by virtues to be more in-line with a level-based model (for example stat values available on gear across levels), but we cannot do that unless we have some way to equate a given virtue rank with a specific level range.
This also gives us the freedom to extend the cap above 20 in the future.

The virtue caps per level were chosen approximately based on the virtue caps available at various level caps throughout LOTRO's history.

[wispsong]

I think you're mistaking this for a grind reduction. It's not. You will still need to cap your virtues to 20 by the time you reach end game, if you want the full advantage from them. That isn't going anywhere. All that's happening is they are bottlenecking where and when you gain advantage from earning/buying them.

For example. Before this change, if you run the content in a completionist way, by level x you'd have x rank of virtue from the deeds that you complete along the way. Now, if you run the content in a completionist way, by level x, you will have only x rank of virtue (x being the cap they impose), and anything over, will not kick in until later.

Your virtue grind . . . remains still.

I guess I completely miss understood. I actually thought they would be automatic.

That then, considering the revamp, means they become more important and my other characters will become even more handicapped. Increased pressure to grind or buy, with the second completely out of the question for me. Thanks for clearing this up.

[Tybur]

I guess I completely miss understood. I actually thought they would be automatic.

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

The availability of virtue tiers as you level up will be automatic. If you have earned 11 virtue ranks in compassion for example, but are only level 50, then your compassion virtue will only grant you the stats for 10 ranks, but as soon as you level up to 51 the stats you receive from your compassion virtue will automatically increase to the rank 11 values.

The current stats granted by virtues (at each tier) are defined values. And in order to make virtues feel relevant at any and every level (from 1 - 100 at least for now) we will have to change the stat values granted by virtues at each rank, to be more in line with general stat contributions at the level equivalent for that tier. Changing those values will not be automatic, and is something we are working on now for a future patch.

[Fredelas]

We are not abandoning virtues. The cap of 20 does indeed reference the current virtue cap.

This change was made for several reasons, but the primary reason was to allow us to make virtues more relevant at high levels without greatly affecting balance at low - mid levels. We are currently looking to balance the stats provided by virtues to be more in-line with a level-based model (for example stat values available on gear across levels), but we cannot do that unless we have some way to equate a given virtue rank with a specific level range.
This also gives us the freedom to extend the cap above 20 in the future.

The virtue caps per level were chosen approximately based on the virtue caps available at various level caps throughout LOTRO's history.

I think this system could be improved if the virtue ranks continued all the way to rank 24 at level 120. Now that ranks are tied to levels, they can be individually tuned to provide a similar benefit at each point along the way. Otherwise, the time (and/or LOTRO Points) a player invests in earning a virtue rank becomes worth less and less every level they gain above 96. It's kind of the same situation stat tomes are in.

Edit: Reading your most recent reply, it sounds like something like that is already planned, and these are just the first (uncomfortable) steps needed to prepare for it.

[JimhadaUK]

Isn't that a good thing. All these grinds because of the store and now...
I like this. No more worry about grinding all these deeds for virtues. Just play the game and have fun.

Can somebody please explain to me why removing this grind from the game is bad. I read all the time that store is p2w and then people actually complain when it is taken out of the equation.

Imo, this is a good change and I hope they will do something similar for traits and ILI.

Arnenna has explained it a lot more eloquently than I ever could, but as it was myself you quoted I feel obliged to respond.
Lot of my characters dont grind virtues, but those that I have level capped with a tortoise stone have done most (important to me) virtues naturally through doing content with the group I play with. In the case of my level 75 character, you can get to 18 - 20 in virtues through natural play. I have topped up those to 20 with the use of a Gift of Valar that I didnt need for an extra +4 to virtues. SSG have now moved the goal posts and their suggestion is to level up to make use of the purchased virtues.

Here is the point... . Here is SSG.

Like I said, I am all for fixing things.. Just wish their was more transparency in their decisions instead of what looks like knee jerk reactions to problems.
Coming into threads like this and explaining is welcome. So thanks for that.

[Arnenna]

I am not sure I understand what you mean?

The availability of virtue tiers as you level up will be automatic. If you have earned 11 virtue ranks in compassion for example, but are only level 50, then your compassion virtue will only grant you the stats for 10 ranks, but as soon as you level up to 51 the stats you receive from your compassion virtue will automatically increase to the rank 11 values.

The current stats granted by virtues (at each tier) are defined values. And in order to make virtues feel relevant at any and every level (from 1 - 100 at least for now) we will have to change the stat values granted by virtues at each rank, to be more in line with general stat contributions at the level equivalent for that tier. Changing those values will not be automatic, and is something we are working on now for a future patch.

I think Wisp was under the impression that the grind was being reduced, as in, the virtue ranks would automatically be bestowed upon players - as they level (no need to grind for them). Of course, we could never get that lucky

I think he has a better understanding now though, and sees it more clearly for what it really is. For some folk on the live servers, this just became a buy now, get it later (after you've most likely earned it through gameplay anyway) deal.