My Thoughts on Yondershire (Review of Quests and Landscape)

[itshuntah31]

I've been playing about 5 hours or so of Yondershire content, and I would say I'm probably slightly over halfway through the quests currently offered. I've explored a good portion of the landscape (maybe about 75%?) and I'd like to offer my thoughts on what Yondershire does well and what work could be done to improve it. I'm aware that this is still a beta build, so many of the issues I'm going to raise might just be products of that. I also have not explored all of the map, so if I'm leaving anything out here, let me know!


Yondershire was extremely interesting to me, not only bc of lore and the long awaited connection between Ered Luin and the Shire, but also to see how the devs would create a Shire in 2022. The OG Shire launched 15 years ago, and LOTRO landscape design has shifted immensely since the SOA regions, so I was interested in seeing how the devs would create a zone that didn't feel discontinuous with the current Shire landscape while also adapting to modern LOTRO design norms and constraints. I think this adaptation process leads to many of Yondershire's strengths as well as its faults. (THIS WILL BE A LONG READ SO BEAR WITH ME)

Also, spoiler alerts!!!

As a zone, Yondershire very much reminds me of a smaller Bree-Land, with a central cluster of quest hubs and places of activity with a vast wilderness surrounding it, occasionally dotted with questing areas such as camps and ruins. In the past I've criticized new LOTRO zones for being linear and devoid of exploratory areas, with the height of this trend being the extremely small and linear Elderslade. I'm happy to say that Yondershire completely bucks this trend, being a very open and vast zone that lets the player explore to their heart's content. These off-the-beaten path areas to the north and south of the central road are composed of rolling hills and sort of remind me of the eastern part of the Ered Mithrin, or perhaps the Lone Lands. Closer to the central road on the northern side are forests that are essentially larger versions of the Bindbole Wood, yet also somehow remind me of parts of West Rohan (the mountainous part that is). Overall, these sections of the map are vast and provide a lot of great exploration, but they also feel rather empty and directionless. There are a couple of larger ruins that serve as enemy camps, but the vast amount of landscape in between is seemingly devoid of content. I would have liked to see more smaller enemy camps with tents, which would certainly be an improvement in comparison to the scattered enemies that just seem randomly placed around the map at the moment. I did see a Boggart camp at a swamp in the NW of the map, and a couple of animal caves in the north, but the southwest of the map seems to have absolutely nothing This is rather disappointing since I expected to see more activity on Saruman's part, especially since the central plot revolves around Lotho trying to take control. Perhaps an overtaken Hobbit village, or just a brigand camp near that waterfall would have added a lot more. I also feel like the north part of the map, close to Annuminas, could have had some Ranger camps or something, especially since the hobbits of the Yondershire seem to be fairly unprotected. The vast wilderness areas of Bree-Land and the North Downs work as low density zones because there are also high density zones in other parts of the map to compensate (such as the Barrow Downs or Dol Dinen) but here it doesn't feel like that. These wilderness areas also work better because there are more defined wilderness areas (such as Nen Harn or Annundir) rather than just a vast swath of grey Lone Lands terrain. I very much appreciate the extra landmass, and I'm happy we have it rather than not, but I feel like a few small additions could flesh it out a lot more. My other criticism is the transitions within the zone, which feel rather arbitrary as the lush central area quickly transforms into a desolate wilderness. I think that transition could certainly be smoothed out, along with the transition from Ered Luin to the Yondershire. Speaking of that, it would be also cool to see a small camp of Elves as a quest hub for the NW area of the zone!

The central part of Yondershire is clearly the major focus of the update, and for good reason: it looks amazing! The lush comfy feel of the original Shire has been expanded upon in the creation of the 4 villages of Gamwich, Long Cleeve, Nobottle, and Tightfield. The latter two are farming villages in the very central part of the zone, while the former two are more backwater settlements that branch off from this central road. I especially like the farms of Nobottle that overlook the town, the verticality of Long Cleeve, and the expanded inn interiors which are great for roleplaying. In comparison to the SOA Shire villages, these are much more expansive, with almost all rivaling the size of a Michel Delving. This has been criticized for feeling lore-breaking, but I don't think that LOTRO devs should feel limited by what they've made in the past to make larger and more realistic hobbit villages. Besides, I like to think that Hobbits only like their villages so large and that having Michel Delving even larger than what it currently is would upset them. Despite being larger than the original Shire villages, this doesn't detract from the "Yonder" feeling of Yondershire. These villages are really the only Hobbit settlements I saw, and the areas between them feel much more lonely and less developed than the clustered Shire proper, where farms and houses exist along the road. Although I maybe would have liked to see a little more independent Hobbit development, I can understand why they chose to mainly keep the hobbits clustered, as it adds to the tone of the zone. I actually saw one lone hobbit house in the western part of the zone by a stone wall, but for some reason it did not have a door, and there was no explanation for what it was doing there.

In terms of quests, Yondershire offers a lot of the kinds of non-combat quests that made the original Shire so great (and loathed by some, apparently) among LOTRO players. I chased after a goose in Long Cleeve, visited Bingo's (Yes, Bingo Boffin returns!) relatives in Tightfield, helped a dwarf figure out the perfect present, helped brew beer in Nobottle, and engaged in bar and mail runs across the zone. As someone who enjoys these kinds of low-stakes quests, Yondershire had a ton to offer, and I am especially intrigued by the broader plot concerning Lotho's activities in the region. Yondershire seems to have a ton of potential as a questing zone, and I've really only engaged with the sidequests so far. Of course, I did run into a couple quest bugs such as not being able to continue Bingo's quests since an Elf ruin did not have any half orcs within it, and another quest involving inspecting mail where a cooking animation played while I was inspecting the mail, which seems like an odd way to look at mail! Also, Gildor is in Tightfield, and he doesn't seem to have any associated quests, which I'm certainly hoping is changed! My only other criticism of the questing experience is that I felt that not enough quests led me out to the wilder part of Yondershire, but hopefully that's just a symptom of me only having completed around half the zone and that its still in beta.

Overall, Yondershire is an amazing zone that really shows a merging of new and old styles of LOTRO worldbuilding. Although there is a central path and questflow to the zone, there is still plenty of opportunities for players to leave this path and explore the wider region. I think that this is both a strength and a weakness, in that although this extra land gives room for players to roam and expands Middle Earth, I also hope that this land isn't just treated like an afterthought and that a bit more care is taken in fleshing it out. This can be as simple as just adding a few more camps or a small quest hub, or giving more locales names. Despite these issues, I feel like Yondershire is overall a success in worldbuilding, and for me the positives in seeing more great hobbit content and Middle Earth in general far outweigh the negatives.

Pros:
A large, open zone that invites exploration
Beautiful, unique hobbit villages
Great quests and general quest design
A great overarching story and theme, fits well with the tone of the Yondershire

Cons:
Wilderness areas feel too sparse and directionless (especially in the SE)
Transitions between zones are a little rough
Northern area near Annuminas doesn't feel like Evendim, also would be cool to see a road from Annuminas/nearby area for lore reasons (why wouldn't there be?)
More developed questing in areas that aren't the central hobbit villages.

[Valather89]

I actually agree with most of your suggestions and I hope at least some of them are taken into consideration! I find them to be really nice. Mostly:

- Road to Annúminas by the north side (pretty please?)
- Some Ranger(s) aiding the bounders in the protection and scouting of the northern woods.
- A very small outpost or encampment with a few elves and dwarves across river Lhûn to enhance the continuity with Ered Luin (they could be there tracking Dourhands fled after the Dwarf/Elf Prologue, to keep them from attacking the hobbits). Not even a quest is needed, just a small text box upon clicking on them.
- More cohesive landscape transitions. Some sparse Elvish-feeling trees past the former portal that used to lead you from Ered Luin to the Shire; and a much less abrupt change of landscape between the desolate lands and the more lush parts of Yondershire. The change from the bucolic Little Delving to the moors in the west is too sudden, and a bit to the south of Needlehole you just cross a river and the landscape is entirely different: I think some work could be done here (perhaps a greener, more grassy shade for the moors before they pretty much become Lone Lands 2.0?).

And I agree on central, more hobbit-ish Yondershire clearly being the best part of the zone, for now at least. The hobbit towns are wonderful. And yeah I don't mind how big they are compared to the older Shire villages either, it can be easily explained by the danger of the wilderness making them gather in bigger and more secluded settlements but smaller in number, instead of the seamless mixture of countryside and civilization of the Shire Proper.

Also, not really a suggestion, but I'm wondering about Bingo Boffin, from a chronological standpoint. Is his presence in the Yondershire supposed to happen once he's returned from his long adventure? If so, will you find him there only if you have finished the whole Ballad of Bingo Boffin storyline, with newer characters missing that level 20 quest he bestows until they are done with his adventure (which ends up near level 90)? Or will new characters find him there duplicated since, when doing his storyline step by step as they level, by level 20 he must be on his way to the Lone Lands at that point?

As a whole, I think this new zone is a great addition to the game and the world designers led by Scenario haven't lost their touch when trying to recreate that unmatched Shire feel, while finally connecting Ered Luin to the rest of Eriador. Also, it's huge! I can only show my gratitude. But Yondershire could be just close to perfection with even more work done on making the aforementioned landscape transitions smoother, on more connectors in the northern parts (both between the Shire Proper -through Bindbole Wood- and Yondershire, and between the Yondershire and Evendim), and with a bigger "thematic" coherence with some Ered Luin folk scouting the western parts of the Yondershire and some Ranger doing the same in the woods and Arnorian ruins near Evendim.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I'm wondering about Bingo Boffin, from a chronological standpoint. Is his presence in the Yondershire supposed to happen once he's returned from his long adventure? If so, will you find him there only if you have finished the whole Ballad of Bingo Boffin storyline, with newer characters missing that level 20 quest he bestows until they are done with his adventure (which ends up near level 90)? Or will new characters find him there duplicated since, when doing his storyline step by step as they level, by level 20 he must be on his way to the Lone Lands at that point?.

Much like The Curse of Eerie Acres, there isn't a requirement for you to have completed The Ballad of Bingo Boffin, although it's generally understood that Bingo is back from his adventure at this point (after all, Angelica was still living at home with Prisca when Bingo set out during the Ballad). In general I've found that players tend to prefer fewer restrictions when it comes to picking up quests, but if you'd rather do everything in sequence you'd probably run them like this: Ballad -> Frightful Tales -> (wait a year, which plays havoc with the timeline) -> Eerie Acres -> Visit to Yondershire.

MoL

[cdq1958]

While running around the landscape, I ran into Athal and Avorthal. They didn't have any quests associated with them, but they are possible quest givers to come later, or will have pointers from Celondim or Duillond.

[Valather89]

Much like The Curse of Eerie Acres, there isn't a requirement for you to have completed The Ballad of Bingo Boffin, although it's generally understood that Bingo is back from his adventure at this point (after all, Angelica was still living at home with Prisca when Bingo set out during the Ballad). In general I've found that players tend to prefer fewer restrictions when it comes to picking up quests, but if you'd rather do everything in sequence you'd probably run them like this: Ballad -> Frightful Tales -> (wait a year, which plays havoc with the timeline) -> Eerie Acres -> Visit to Yondershire.

MoL

Alright, thanks for clarifying, MoL. I'll probably do that (doing in everything in sequence, I mean... aside from the 'waiting a whole year' thing ). In any case, I love that you are still giving Bingo things to do around the Shire, he's a fascinating fellow. I bet he could turn out to be one of the smaller heroes of the Scouring of the Shire whenever that part of the story comes to the game, heh.

While running around the landscape, I ran into Athal and Avorthal. They didn't have any quests associated with them, but they are possible quest givers to come later, or will have pointers from Celondim or Duillond.

That's neat, I didn't ran into them.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I actually agree with most of your suggestions and I hope at least some of them are taken into consideration! I find them to be really nice. Mostly:

- Road to Annúminas by the north side (pretty please?)
- Some Ranger(s) aiding the bounders in the protection and scouting of the northern woods.
- A very small outpost or encampment with a few elves and dwarves across river Lhûn to enhance the continuity with Ered Luin (they could be there tracking Dourhands fled after the Dwarf/Elf Prologue, to keep them from attacking the hobbits). Not even a quest is needed, just a small text box upon clicking on them.
- More cohesive landscape transitions. Some sparse Elvish-feeling trees past the former portal that used to lead you from Ered Luin to the Shire; and a much less abrupt change of landscape between the desolate lands and the more lush parts of Yondershire. The change from the bucolic Little Delving to the moors in the west is too sudden, and a bit to the south of Needlehole you just cross a river and the landscape is entirely different: I think some work could be done here (perhaps a greener, more grassy shade for the moors before they pretty much become Lone Lands 2.0?).

And I agree on central, more hobbit-ish Yondershire clearly being the best part of the zone, for now at least. The hobbit towns are wonderful. And yeah I don't mind how big they are compared to the older Shire villages either, it can be easily explained by the danger of the wilderness making them gather in bigger and more secluded settlements but smaller in number, instead of the seamless mixture of countryside and civilization of the Shire Proper.

Also, not really a suggestion, but I'm wondering about Bingo Boffin, from a chronological standpoint. Is his presence in the Yondershire supposed to happen once he's returned from his long adventure? If so, will you find him there only if you have finished the whole Ballad of Bingo Boffin storyline, with newer characters missing that level 20 quest he bestows until they are done with his adventure (which ends up near level 90)? Or will new characters find him there duplicated since, when doing his storyline step by step as they level, by level 20 he must be on his way to the Lone Lands at that point?

As a whole, I think this new zone is a great addition to the game and the world designers led by Scenario haven't lost their touch when trying to recreate that unmatched Shire feel, while finally connecting Ered Luin to the rest of Eriador. Also, it's huge! I can only show my gratitude. But Yondershire could be just close to perfection with even more work done on making the aforementioned landscape transitions smoother, on more connectors in the northern parts (both between the Shire Proper -through Bindbole Wood- and Yondershire, and between the Yondershire and Evendim), and with a bigger "thematic" coherence with some Ered Luin folk scouting the western parts of the Yondershire and some Ranger doing the same in the woods and Arnorian ruins near Evendim.

A couple of these were addressed by Scenario in his stream, which I was pleased to hear:

- They are looking at smoother transitions (knocking down unnecessary landscape walls) between the northern parts of the Shire and eastern Yondershire (from Needlehole along to Glofimbul's Hole).
- Scenario took us to an interior area in one of the Evendim-style ruins (Hunter's Hall, iirc?), in which a ranger (a new name that I didn't recognise) could be found. Hopefully this is one of several rangers keeping a watch on Yondershire!

Scenario said that they had no plans to make any other connections between Evendim and Yondershire, beyond the one in Oatbarton. I think this is a real shame - the paths of Men Erain are so atmospheric and iconic (looking down over Annuminas and Lake Evendim), that some links through the hills into Annuminas would be a great addition! (my suggestion would be to Echad Garthadir, so at least the area is protected, in case a low level character wanders in without realising). From a lore perspective, this would also make sense - why would Elendil and co have traipsed all the way to Oatbarton, just to get to their fortresses in Yondershire?

Finally, I agree with the need for smoother transitions - the heath land in the south west of Yondershire didn't really make sense to me, and did just feel a bit like a Lonelands vibe. Rolling green chalk hills would make more sense to me, given the proximity to the Delving Fields.

[Valather89]

A couple of these were addressed by Scenario in his stream, which I was pleased to hear:

- They are looking at smoother transitions (knocking down unnecessary landscape walls) between the northern parts of the Shire and eastern Yondershire (from Needlehole along to Glofimbul's Hole).
- Scenario took us to an interior area in one of the Evendim-style ruins (Hunter's Hall, iirc?), in which a ranger (a new name that I didn't recognise) could be found. Hopefully this is one of several rangers keeping a watch on Yondershire!

Scenario said that they had no plans to make any other connections between Evendim and Yondershire, beyond the one in Oatbarton. I think this is a real shame - the paths of Men Erain are so atmospheric and iconic (looking down over Annuminas and Lake Evendim), that some links through the hills into Annuminas would be a great addition! (my suggestion would be to Echad Garthadir, so at least the area is protected, in case a low level character wanders in without realising). From a lore perspective, this would also make sense - why would Elendil and co have traipsed all the way to Oatbarton, just to get to their fortresses in Yondershire?

Finally, I agree with the need for smoother transitions - the heath land in the south west of Yondershire didn't really make sense to me, and did just feel a bit like a Lonelands vibe. Rolling green chalk hills would make more sense to me, given the proximity to the Delving Fields.

I did watch the livestream yesterday (just for clarification: my former message was written a few hours before it happened), and I'm glad some of my concerns were shared by other people in the community and addressed by Scenario, who seemed to consider them quite valid suggestions too. Of course, whether there are changes in that respect in the next iterations or not remains to be seen. But yes, it was a really insightful and enjoyable livestream. Obviously what you just mentioned about Evendim was a bit of a letdown for me too, since -as you said- it just makes sense from a lore perspective, but I understand that it would probably take a lot of work for something they don't consider that important for the actual game experience (due to the big difference in levels between both areas) and they have to meet their deadlines and all of that. I'm still going to advocate for it on some occasions though, just in case some dev eventually gives in.

And I quite agree on the last part.

[OldMadeOfLions]

why would Elendil and co have traipsed all the way to Oatbarton, just to get to their fortresses in Yondershire?

Aside from the fact that Oatbarton wouldn't have existed yet? They'd have just been riding across country to get there, primarily during the summer months to go hunting with Gil-galad and his folk -- more vacation than war-time sortie. During the time of Elendil, at least, most of the dangerous matters of the day were (famously) happening elsewhere. By the time that this part of the world needed serious attention, the people of Arthedain were dwindling and in a tight spot, spread too thin to effectively defend any but their most crucial fortresses. Would it have been more convenient if there was a direct road through the mountains from Annuminas? Sure, if they believed they needed one -- but first they didn't need one, and when they might have needed one they didn't have the time or manpower to make it, with their attention divided. But now it's anecdote time!

When I was in elementary school, I was invited to the birthday party of a girl in my class, and my mom drove me there. It took thirty minutes or so, driving through woods, and we went past the school and the fire station and the library, past a bus depot and a bunch of other landmarks in the town. I don't remember much about the birthday party or what I might have gotten this girl for a present (a trapper keeper, maybe? They were really big back in the Eighties), but I do remember having to sit in the car for so long: thirty minutes is an eternity when you're in fourth grade.

Some years later, the woods near my house were cleared away and a road added from my neighborhood to reach the new housing development that was being constructed (my family would think of this as The New Area, not to be confused with The New New Area, which came later). And when you walked through The New Area to reach the road on the other side... you were standing almost right next to the house of that birthday girl, from so long ago! You could almost see my house from her house, after that road was added.

In conclusion: geography can be funny, and sometimes it's not convenient, and maybe that's not only okay but authentic.

MoL

[Phantion]

Aside from the fact that Oatbarton wouldn't have existed yet? They'd have just been riding across country to get there, primarily during the summer months to go hunting with Gil-galad and his folk -- more vacation than war-time sortie. During the time of Elendil, at least, most of the dangerous matters of the day were (famously) happening elsewhere. By the time that this part of the world needed serious attention, the people of Arthedain were dwindling and in a tight spot, spread too thin to effectively defend any but their most crucial fortresses. Would it have been more convenient if there was a direct road through the mountains from Annuminas? Sure, if they believed they needed one -- but first they didn't need one, and when they might have needed one they didn't have the time or manpower to make it, with their attention divided. But now it's anecdote time!

When I was in elementary school, I was invited to the birthday party of a girl in my class, and my mom drove me there. It took thirty minutes or so, driving through woods, and we went past the school and the fire station and the library, past a bus depot and a bunch of other landmarks in the town. I don't remember much about the birthday party or what I might have gotten this girl for a present (a trapper keeper, maybe? They were really big back in the Eighties), but I do remember having to sit in the car for so long: thirty minutes is an eternity when you're in fourth grade.

Some years later, the woods near my house were cleared away and a road added from my neighborhood to reach the new housing development that was being constructed (my family would think of this as The New Area, not to be confused with The New New Area, which came later). And when you walked through The New Area to reach the road on the other side... you were standing almost right next to the house of that birthday girl, from so long ago! You could almost see my house from her house, after that road was added.

In conclusion: geography can be funny, and sometimes it's not convenient, and maybe that's not only okay but authentic.

MoL

Ok- I agree with you there and appreciate the example!

Now, RE- "They'd just been riding across open country to get there." Are we imagining them riding around, long before Oatbarton existed, and coming around that horseshoe? Or are they riding across open country from, say, western Emyn Uial outside the west gate of Annuminas and getting over there?

All we'd really need is a smoothing of that terrain from the new Evendim-style ruins and that slope heading down to where the southwest shore of Lake Evendim is; it wouldn't need to directly involve Annuminas, and it could just be open wilderness with forest, trees, etc., without any kind of a road.

I mean: even with riding across open country, they'd still get there, right?

I guess it amounts to this: even when geography isn't convenient, it's harder, immersion-wise, to buy into the story that you're telling us if, say, Elendil and Gil-galad could magically gallop across that landscape, but player-characters can't.

I hope I give you a good, hearty laugh here: It's currently feeling as if, somehow, in between the Ages, Morgoth reached his arm past the Door of Night and raised the geography behind Evendim just to punish the Free Peoples! LOL!

I know geography isn't entirely linear and varies, and yes, often, it's not so convenient. But you're telling us that, somehow, Elendil and company were able to do something that the invisible walls prevent players themselves from doing.

There was also another opportunity, by the way. You have an interior space in one of those Evendim ruins in Yondershire. That actually could have been developed into a slightly larger underground passage that Elendil and company could have used; it could have been a natural cave between Evendim and Yondershire that later became "the passage" to get to the hunting lodge, with a cave exit on the other side on the southwestern shores of the lake.

It's so sad. When I first stumbled on it, although I couldn't get far into it due to "Bree-land unexplored territory," I was at first extremely excited, thinking: "How creative! Wow! That's the passage!" And then it turned it to be nothing but just another tiny little tomb.

Anyways: I'm still......... very excited about Yondershire!

I think the reason why many players are a little bummed about not having an Evendim connection near the Evendim ruins is because, well........... it doesn't quite seem as natural to have these invisible wall barriers, if say Elendil just rode up into the upper hills and came down a little bit and decided, "these woods are pleasant; let's build a hunting lodge!" As you said, Elendil's attention is very divided, and it just would seem very, very, very strange for Elendil to do that by riding all the way around through the wilderness that becomes Oatbarton to get out there.

Let me give you an IRL analogy. Fontainebleau in France is not geographically blocked from Paris. It's a forest, a hunting forest, used by the French Kings; Fontainebleau is the older, more medieval Palace versus the more modern Versailles, and it was actually, at its inception, a hunting lodge for the King and his Court. It's literally a direct ride from Paris, if we put on our "medieval glasses." They didn't build their hunting lodge far away from the Capital behind mostly impassable geography as it made little logical sense to them; they made sure that the King could get back to Paris if there was an emergency or something.

So, without an overland or "under-hill" connection to western Evendim, the location of the ruins in Yondershire just still feel very illogical to me, even with what you've said. I mean: say Sauron, who had fought the War of the Elves and Sauron, came north again, and say he came through Evendim to go after Annuminas (*this is all purely hypothetical, getting into Elendil's mind a little bit, before any knowledge of the events as they happen to get the Ring off Sauron's finger). Say Sauron goes after Annuminas, and Elendil's at his hunting lodge, and the only way Elendil can get back to Annuminas is by riding all the way around with no way to get over impassible rocky cliffs to get to Annuminas, only able to send a messenger crow over the rocky mountain-hills.

To me, the solution that would make the most sense is if, just as in northwestern Evendim where you can climb higher into Emyn Uial, would be to just find a way to smooth-out southwestern Evendim's hills, with some rocky barriers yes, but just enough wilderness to "follow in Elendil's forest-ride" to get to those areas; it doesn't need roads or formal passes. Just natural hills.

And think about it: currently, the west gate of Annuminas makes no sense. It leads to nowhere. It only leads to beaches and Gwindeth's grotto. It doesn't go anywhere. Transform that into "Elendil's hunting egress" - and then that exit makes a ton more sense. It could become the royal passageway to the wilderness of the royal hunting grounds that straddle parts of southwestern Emyn Uial and flow down into northern Yondershire, all wilderness, no roads.

Anyways- tyvm for listening and for your wonderful analogy! I know, I know, I know, it's really about: "But it's so much more work, and we're doing so much already! No time!"

This is enthusiasm talking. Nothing else. Please know that I'm ever so grateful for everything you and the whole Team are doing My first ride into Yondershire on BR was the first time in years......... I felt as if I was a first-time player again. You've restored the magic Thank you........ beyond all words. Thank you!

Cheers!

[OldMadeOfLions]

I know, I know, I know, it's really about: "But it's so much more work, and we're doing so much already! No time!"

Incorrect. What it's actually about is that we designed it this way on purpose, and think the way we designed it is the best (and supportable!) way of doing it. Not every zone is going to be connected to every other zone, not even by way of some... underground tunnel that Elendil is supposed to have carved through the hills so he could more easily (?) visit the hunting grounds of his friend Gil-galad. Maybe there were other trails and paths over the hills three thousand years ago, but without anyone actively keeping them clear in the last 1500 or so, I think it's reasonable to think that any "straight way" between the City of the Kings and Yondershire would be long-since overgrown and lost to the wild. Yonder-hobbits are not going this way, for instance, and the distances around are not so extreme that it hurts my immersion: on holiday, I rather think that the kings would prefer the scenic route, rather than going directly over the hills.

MoL

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Incorrect. What it's actually about is that we designed it this way on purpose, and think the way we designed it is the best (and supportable!) way of doing it. Not every zone is going to be connected to every other zone, not even by way of some... underground tunnel that Elendil is supposed to have carved through the hills so he could more easily (?) visit the hunting grounds of his friend Gil-galad. Maybe there were other trails and paths over the hills three thousand years ago, but without anyone actively keeping them clear in the last 1500 or so, I think it's reasonable to think that any "straight way" between the City of the Kings and Yondershire would be long-since overgrown and lost to the wild. Yonder-hobbits are not going this way, for instance, and the distances around are not so extreme that it hurts my immersion: on holiday, I rather think that the kings would prefer the scenic route, rather than going directly over the hills.

MoL

While the tale of Elendil and his family dominate the stories of the Second Age, there are many other stories which are as yet untold.

One of these is the story of Farondir.

Farondir was a shipbuilder, who had worked his way up from poverty to become one of the richest men in Numenor, through providing the vessels that Elendil and the Faithful needed to sail to Middle Earth, Carefully toeing a line between supporting the king and supporting the Faithful, Farondir was convinced by his wife, Meldriel, to join the Faithful on their flight to Middle Earth, due to her belief that Elendil would reward him greatly for his continued support and his skill at building ships. Through Farondir’s support, Elendil was able to evacuate all of his supporters from Numenor, and the king’s gratitude to Farondir seemed boundless.

Yet upon arrival in Middle Earth, it became clear to Farondir that Elendil held no great affection for him. When Elendil built the keep of Tinnudir, Farondir dropped many hints to the High King about his desire to act as its custodian – yet it went to one of Elendil’s high born advisors. Next, Farondir asked the High King for a plot of land in his new capital of Annuminas, to build a mansion for his household to replace the one that had been destroyed in Numenor – but all parts of the city were gifted to the scions of the great families of Numenor. Elendil expressed his regret to Farondir for this, and instead declared him Lord of the Southern Marches, giving him the half built keep of Bar Faroth, situated in the hills far south of the city, overlooking the hunting grounds of the king.

Meldriel urged him to make the most of their situation, and Farondir spent vast amounts of wealth turning Farondir into a grand keep for the king to reside in while on hunting trips, including the majestic Hunter’s Hall. Yet despite Farondir’s offer of grand lodgings, and Meldriel’s preparation of a grand banquets for the High King and his company, Elendil instead opted to stay in the nearby keep of Ost Lagorath, again held by one of his noble confidants. Farondir, feeling betrayed and ignored by the king, sank into a foul mood and refused to leave his hall for days on end.

Understanding the reasons for Farondir’s distress, Meldriel travelled to Annuminas to petition the king to show greater favour to her husband. Insisting that no harm could come to her so close to the capital of the High King, she travelled with only one companion, her son, Anthandir. Yet while Sauron had apparently perished with Numenor, the roads were not safe. Anthandir returned to his father several days later in great distress – while resting near the western banks of the Baranduin, Meldriel had disappeared in the night. After searching for what seemed like hours, Anthandir had found her – her face contorted with pain and fear, pinned to a tree by a goblin spear. Farondir’s rage knew no bounds. Gathering his followers, Farondir marched to the banks of the Baranduin and for weeks, hunted down every goblin that he could find.

Yet this did not cure Farondir’s grief. To him, the blame rested solely with the High King – the High King who had ignored him and not given him due regard for his help in saving his people. The High King who had given generously to others, but who had only given him the lands that no one else wanted. The High King who had scorned his hospitality and that of his wife – and most importantly, the High King who had failed to make safe his kingdom, leading to the death of Farondir’s kind-hearted and trusting wife.

Farondir knew that he could not directly challenge the High King – Elendil was at his zenith, and none would take his side against the leader who had saved the Faithful from Sauron. Despite the great wealth that he had spent on Bar Faroth, much of Farondir’s wealth yet remained, and he was determined to use it for his revenge. Hiring many workers, Farondir marched north and commanded them to begin digging a path through the hills that separated Farondir’s lands from the High King’s capital. After many weeks, the path was completed, and X was able to look down upon the High King’s city, upon the abodes of the High King’s noble allies and the High King’s citadel on Tyl Annun.

Yet Farondir was not yet finished. High above Annuminas, he started to build a great tower, reaching up into the sky. For many months, Farondir continued to build upwards, and the tower became more and more unstable. As his wealth began to drain away, Anthandir told him that this was enough, and that his point had been made – he could already look down upon the High King’s city, and to do any more would risk the wrath of the king and the safety of the city. Yet Farondir was not done – until his tower cast a shadow upon Elendil’s citadel on Tyl Annun, he would not stop. He imagined standing upon it when it was finished, seeing Elendil looking up at him and knowing who was truly greater. Elendil would then come to him and beg for forgiveness for his many sins, promising to treat Farondir as he truly deserved.

The people of Annuminas had not been oblivious to Farondir’s actions. They had seen the tower starting to loom above them and began to fear that the tower might topple down into the city below. Elendil’s councillors tried to reassure them and promised to tell the High King – yet Elendil was in the south, visiting his sons and it took many months before the message of Farondir’s folly reached him. Meanwhile, Farondir continued to build, until one morning he awoke, not to the sounds of masons hard at work, but to silence. Farondir’s son told him that he had run out of money, and the tower could grow no taller. The workers had all departed, with the foreman saying that the tower was unstable and if it could not be completed, it would be best to knock it down.

Farondir did not listen. Pushing his son aside, he began to climb his tower. Around and around the spiral staircase he climbed, step after step, until he reached the unfinished summit. Looking down upon the city of Annuminas, he saw the shadow of his tower stretching along the bridge to Tyl Annun, grasping towards the great gate to Elendil’s citadel. As Farondir leaned forward to take a closer look, he tripped over a rope, and plunged over the edge of the tower, followed by huge blocks of stone which had been disturbed by his passage.

Farondir never saw his tower collapsing on top of him, or the giant stones that fell into the city of Annuminas below. He never saw Elendil’s return to the city in the following days, nor the High King’s remorse when Anthandir told him the tale of his father’s madness in full. A king’s cares are many, and a High King has even more, meaning that while he saw much, he did not see everything. The gift of Bar Faroth, and the responsibility that came with it, had been intended as a reward for Farondir’s loyal service. Elendil’s visit to Ost Lagorath, rather than Bar Faroth, had been to keep an eye on a noble that he did not trust. The death of Farondir’s wife had been kept from him by his advisors – and when Elendil heard the full sorry tale, he felt pity for Farondir, Meldriel and Anthandir. Anthandir and his descendants were allowed to keep Bar Faroth in perpetuity, and to ensure that they did not feel isolated or disconnected from Elendil’s court in Annuminas, he built a sweeping path down the hills of Evendim into the city, so Anthandir could keep in regular contact with him. The stones from Farondir’s tower were cleared and were used to rebuild the city – but one foundation stone was left, jutting out above the High King’s capital. Known as Farondir’s Folly, this viewpoint reminded the Dunedain for many years of Elendil’s mercy to the family of a fallen ally who had lost it all in the pursuit of power and influence.

Tale told by Anthandir, descendant of Anthandir of Bar Faroth, son of Farondir, found in the Hunter’s Hall in Yondershire.


I thought I might offer a story justification for why a path should be introduced between Annuminas and Yondershire and got a bit carried away!

[auximenes]

Even if it's just a one-way option, like the option for travelling back across the Misties from the East (which drops you off near Draigoch's Lair if I recall?), I'd like to see a way to travel directly from Yondershire to Evendim. Maybe some hills that aren't climbable from the Evendim side? You could travel up there from Yondershire, get a spectacular view of the Lake and Annuminas, and then hop down to investigate if you so choose. At this stage of the game's development I just hate to 'see' invisible walls being used to artificially separate a zone.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Even if it's just a one-way option, like the option for travelling back across the Misties from the East (which drops you off near Draigoch's Lair if I recall?), I'd like to see a way to travel directly from Yondershire to Evendim. Maybe some hills that aren't climbable from the Evendim side? You could travel up there from Yondershire, get a spectacular view of the Lake and Annuminas, and then hop down to investigate if you so chose. At this stage of the game's development I just hate to 'see' invisible walls being used to artificially separate a zone.

Even if it was just this, I'd be happy! I'm really after the views over the lake and Annuminas, rather than the a viable connection (although I still think this would be cool).

[Phantion]

Incorrect. What it's actually about is that we designed it this way on purpose, and think the way we designed it is the best (and supportable!) way of doing it. Not every zone is going to be connected to every other zone, not even by way of some... underground tunnel that Elendil is supposed to have carved through the hills so he could more easily (?) visit the hunting grounds of his friend Gil-galad. Maybe there were other trails and paths over the hills three thousand years ago, but without anyone actively keeping them clear in the last 1500 or so, I think it's reasonable to think that any "straight way" between the City of the Kings and Yondershire would be long-since overgrown and lost to the wild. Yonder-hobbits are not going this way, for instance, and the distances around are not so extreme that it hurts my immersion: on holiday, I rather think that the kings would prefer the scenic route, rather than going directly over the hills.

MoL

Thanks, MoL! I agree with you! Yeah, you've got it right there!


Is it possible at least to smooth-out the transition between, say, Hobbiton - Bindebole Wood - Yondershire a bit more?

I mean, I'm thinking of the great world-building in Wildwood and how you really have a lot of that going on throughout the upper hills, especially as you get closer to Ered Luin: lots of these fantastic, sweeping views, places to climb and take-in the world!

But once you get to the part of the land that goes from Needlehole to near Brockenborings, there's like this Wall there, and I think it's great to have the cliffs: but not as barriers.

You've got that Bear Den that could become a "little wilderness pass" to the relatively small bit of northern Bindebole Wood up on the cliffs that has all of these invisible walls, etc. There are areas on the Yondershire side of those features that look like they could be natural passes although they lead to nowhere. The spider den with the hourn maybe could have some of that "barrier stuff" going on to prevent players from dropping-in without doing the quest first - but at least the rest of it could be accessible?

Another spot could be that Dourhand encampment that could maybe have a path leading up into that missing piece of landscape between Yondershire and, say, Rushock Bog going directly from north to south, maybe have some of the terrain textures made more consistent in that area, etc.

Otherwise, I'm not so sure the crumbling "old bounds of the Shire" walls make much sense that are to the north of Bindebole Wood if, say, a Hobbit with a dash of "Tookish-ness" couldn't climb, say, directly up to that from Hobbiton.

I think it's a great opportunity to give some pretty neat views showcasing northern Yondershire as well as some new ways of looking at the Shire, such as over Rushock Bog from farther above it, maybe looking out toward the Hill from a different angle, etc.

Cheers!