Welcome back to the Ettenmoors!

[Ameranth]

the healer must do 2% damage to get credit?

OR be in a group that does 2% to the target, which will usually be the group that does a lot more and kills it. The 2% rule (which is too low IMHO) only applies to people who don't stick around for the fight, to prevent tagging a target to leech credit from the people doing all the work.

[Ameranth]

Why don't they build nerfs into the gear I wonder. If set bonuses can buff skills, why not nerf skills? Then if the gear is required because of audacity it can have set bonuses on it that reduces champ sprint or things like that.

I like this idea, but I can see a problem with building nerfs directly into gear. It assumes freeps are using certain buffs, and then forces them to use them because it penalizes them heavily if they're not.

Take everyone's favorite example, champ sprint (15s dur, 2m cd). It's a problem because people can trait for -60s cd and tracery for +33s duration, for a total of 48s dur, 1m cd. If we apply a 60s cd debuff to counter that then any champ who doesn't trait for the cooldown is getting stuck with a 3m cd, and any champ that does is basically wasting 3 trait points just to tread water in terms of skill effectiveness. I don't know if it would be possible to add a 2 min maximum value to the cooldown so that the debuff would only affect people who had already buffed it, but then we're solving the problem by forcing champs to redo trait trees every time they step out of GV.

Instead of tying it to gear, I wonder if it would be possible to apply it as part of a class-based global debuff in the moors. That way it could be changed as needed for balance and would also affect people who prefer to stick with their high tier PVE gear.

[KillAllFrep]

Without autoflips to make quests available new players would be severely limited in what quests they could do, since they're completely reliant on having someone else flip keeps for them. If all the keeps belong to the other side and there's no group from their side out, they're completely out of luck. They'll have to leave the moors and come back another time, hoping there's keeps on their side by then.

In addition, remove the 10 turn ins per flip cap on oil/ore quests in TR and Lug, and oil/ore/blades/kindling in TA.

To the first part. 1. Do you even get credit for an auto flip? Don't you have to be right next to/in the keep when it changes hands? You can't predict autoflips so I don't see how this is an argument at all. 2. Autoflips are horrible, horrible mechanics, they kill PvP action, yknow, PvP, the reason we're all in the zone.

To your other point, agree, the 10 turnin limit is dumb. 10 to activate the keep buff, endless turnins for other players for comms.

The old Turbine days of this is what you are getting - period should not be returned to.

Well said, that style of development doesn't foster good will, patience, or happy players.

Maps are the bane of any good action. when you can insta-port into any fight anywhere upon an OOC callout, you get the unlivable "map in zergs" on any server/timezone where there's a large population

100% agree.

Also, see my note above about the stalemate that making both sides move the same would cause.

Nothing like the endless literal 24/7 Grams/GV/Lug Hill shuffles that are caused by continuous stalemate?

There's a simple fix to the mobility disparity in the moors:
1. Remove maps
2. Disable mounts in the Moors
2. Every player (Freep/Creep) gets a new skill: March. +65% run speed, induction 1 second, useable on the move, immediately broken in combat.

Parity is achieved, map-in zergs are a thing of the past, "running down creeps" on horses is a thing of the past. Players that don't want to fight will run away from eachother just like Freeps currently can (most of the time), except it's now balanced.

I like this idea, but I can see a problem with building nerfs directly into gear.

Building nerfs into gear is a horrible, horrible idea. Nobody's like "Aww, yeah, I can't wait to get my 4th piece of this gear set so I can get -60% incoming healing, sweet!" - they're going to find whatever ways around obtaining that four-set they can, be frustrated that it exists, and be unhappy they're being nerfed instead of buffed by their mandatory gear they're grinding weeks on end to acquire.

If certain skills are broken in the Moors they should be addressed by a dev on a case by case basis, not a blanket "FU" to anyone playing the class.

[Joedangod]

Why don't they build nerfs into the gear I wonder. If set bonuses can buff skills, why not nerf skills? Then if the gear is required because of audacity it can have set bonuses on it that reduces champ sprint or things like that.

Sounds good...but the actual practicality of it is questionable.

For starters you'd pretty much need to do sets for each class so that's a fair amount of item bloat coming in. It's also not all that practical for champ sprint, the main issue with that skill in PvP is duration but that duration issue is created by the LI system. Whilst you could make a -30s Sprint duration set bonus you'd effectively be forcing those champ players into slotting the tracery to have any Sprint at all. Also a bit unintuitive to have stuff function totally differently in different game modes.

Although really the main issue with the suggestion is the fact that the PvE skills/abilities that are causing the most issues in PvMP are things that shouldn't be in PvE either. Champs shouldn't be functionally immune to slows in PvE, RK Armour of the Elements shouldn't be spamming out stuns like it does, and minstrel flop shouldn't have the tiny cooldown and insane duration it has (hell, they even blocked this skill from being usable at all in group instances). PvP balance apparently isn't allowed to interfere with PvE balance but it's not like PvE balance is even in a good spot to begin with.

[Nanganark]

More details on anything else that is planned in the near future will be discussed next week. Stay tuned to the forums for more details.



I am a fan of counterplay. More details to come.

Will there any new Patchnotes released before Preview #2 on Bullroarer gets Tested?

[Ameranth]

To the first part. 1. Do you even get credit for an auto flip? Don't you have to be right next to/in the keep when it changes hands? You can't predict autoflips so I don't see how this is an argument at all. 2. Autoflips are horrible, horrible mechanics, they kill PvP action, yknow, PvP, the reason we're all in the zone.

It's not about getting credit for the flip, it's about being able to pick up or turn in the roughly half dozen quests in each keep. If the keep stays one color for days, new players trying to quest so they can buy the basics are out of luck.

Nothing like the endless literal 24/7 Grams/GV/Lug Hill shuffles that are caused by continuous stalemate?

That's an issue with certain players I won't name whose idea of strategy is to park right on the one shot line at GV which renders any non-ranged non-heal class utterly moot, and traps the freeps on the steps. Then they wonder why the freeps all went back to Bree. I won't give my opinion of these players because it would be a COC violation. I simply walk away from any GV camp, even if I'm the main healer for the group. If they don't follow, well then I'll meet them at the rez.

At least with Grams camps the line is pushed farther out so groups can get out the sides and flank, and there's some terrain to play with. The solution is to do the same to GV, move the NPC camp and one shots farther out in the field.

With both issues what you're describing isn't a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with your server and the way they do things. On mine both sides roam around the map. Flipping keeps to gain positional advantage and responding to flips/autoflips are what keep the fights dynamic. On Ark they just do static WW1 style warfare, and it sounds like nobody is happy with that. The obvious solution is to simply stop playing like that, because you can make all the mechanical changes you like but it won't stop people from doing the shuffle you despise.

Parity is achieved, map-in zergs are a thing of the past, "running down creeps" on horses is a thing of the past. Players that don't want to fight will run away from eachother just like Freeps currently can (most of the time), except it's now balanced.

And nobody will ever get into a fight because the weaker side will constantly move away from the stronger one, and they're both moving at the same speed.

If certain skills are broken in the Moors they should be addressed by a dev on a case by case basis, not a blanket "FU" to anyone playing the class.

So your solution to a skill being a problem in PVP isn't to address that skill, it's to have a dev take the time to deal with individual players using that skill???

[Ameranth]

Although really the main issue with the suggestion is the fact that the PvE skills/abilities that are causing the most issues in PvMP are things that shouldn't be in PvE either. Champs shouldn't be functionally immune to slows in PvE, RK Armour of the Elements shouldn't be spamming out stuns like it does, and minstrel flop shouldn't have the tiny cooldown and insane duration it has (hell, they even blocked this skill from being usable at all in group instances). PvP balance apparently isn't allowed to interfere with PvE balance but it's not like PvE balance is even in a good spot to begin with.

An excellent point.

You can add +10 range to that list too.

[duvelmoortgat]

In the three months since I teased changes to Monster Play, I went quiet, head down, and hands on keyboard, and while not everything I wanted to do is complete, I do have some items to share about the changes coming to the Ettenmoors! The Ettenmoors occupies a niche role. It is not and never will be the focal point of the game. It is, however, an important piece of the greater whole that sets The Lord of the Rings: Online apart from other MMOs. Monster Play is at a crossroads. We need to solidify its place in the game and give it every opportunity to thrive before making a final decision on how it might be supported moving forward.

Finding Monster Play’s future role in the game is not easy. Not every player is invested in the experience, some flat-out recoil at the mention of PvMP, but those that engage deeply in the experience have done so, loyally, for a very, very long time. After many conversations with Raninia and Severlin, the direction I wanted to take became clearer. The intent with the upcoming changes is to supply support to Monster Play to ensure that it still is another reason to keep playing and a reason to come back.

The changes that follow are all made with these goals in mind.

Monster Play is Free to All

First, Monster Play is going free to all players. Continuing the success of our 15th Anniversary, once you gain level two on any Free Peoples player character, just return to the character generation screen and make any Monster Player character you want. Want to make a Defiler? Free. Warleader? Free. All PvMP classes are free upon reaching level two!

Monster Player Classes Updated

Now that we are making the PvMP classes free, we need to make the classes more accessible and viable at the outset, meaning changes to the initial skill loadouts for all monster classes. The changes focus on providing a better spread of skills more indicative of class gameplay. Each class now starts with eight skills, giving them a better interaction against Freeps.

Rank requirements- while still an important aspect of monster advancement- for Monster Player skills are reduced to a max Rank of five for all Monster Classes. This change should make it easier to attain a fully realized Monster Player character.

To further incentivize Monster Play, we are adjusting the first quests and accomplishments to reward the ‘Map to Gramsfoot’ - a necessity in the Monster Player experience - and adding updated accomplishment rewards to provide Monster Players with four items that grant a rank of Audacity each.

We’ve also increased the amount of ‘Commendations’ an account can carry to 20,000 and added a set of tasks unique to defeating enemies throughout the Ettenmoors to inspire more battles.

Audacity Changes

Audacity has been reimagined and made more important than ever! Each side in the Ettenmoors now has 36 Ranks of Audacity. Free Players get Audacity through the acquisition of gear, including a new set of armour and jewellery available for ‘Commendations’ at Glân Vraig. Monster Players earn Ranks of Audacity by spending ‘Commendations’ at their Corruptors within Gramsfoot.

Because of the reliance and necessity of Audacity, we have reduced the cost to train Audacity from Ranks 1-24. The reduction reflects the need to move to Rank 25 quickly, overcoming the negative impact to outgoing damage and increased incoming damage. At Rank 25 Audacity, all players reach parity and break even with neither bonus nor negative impact. From 26 to 36, there are incremental gains improving the outgoing damage and reducing incoming damage.

Moving forward, you will need Audacity to survive in the Ettenmoors, and to augment that need we have added new tinctures that increase Audacity by 5 Ranks for 60 minutes of real-time. Tinctures be acquired for either ‘Commendations’ or Mithril Coins at barter NPCs found at the respective main bases. These tinctures stack to ten and have a cooldown of 60 minutes to match their duration. The tinctures are not bound by your Rank in PvMP.

Store Updates

We are adding new racial, class skill, and corruption bundles to the store at a reduced cost to encourage new Monster Players.

And for the discerning elder Monster Players, we are adding a new appearance for each Monster Player Class!

Heal Tagging is Removed

Lastly, the practice known as “heal tagging” is gone. Players outside of fellowship or raids no longer earn infamy/renown or ‘Commendations’ when healing a player who defeated an opponent in the Ettenmoors. To get recognition for the defeat, a player must deal at least 2% of the damage to the target or be part of the fellowship or raid that defeats the target.

There is a known issue with the heal tagging fix right now that we are working and it may not be present in the BUllroarer preview uploaded in the next day or so. We are working to ensure that it is fixed for the next iteration of Bullroarer and certainly for the release of the next live update.

Conclusion

The Ettenmoors is changing, and we hope for the better! What I am really hoping for is a reinvigorated experience that drives players and monster players into conflict more often. If we get the fun right and players return to the Ettenmoors more often then we will have moved beyond the crossroads and have a clear path toward the future.

Welcome back to the Ettenmoors!

@SSG_Orion,

I like some of the changes and proposals. But I ask myself what type of audience and gameplay does SSG want?

That is a fundamental philosophy question which is not answered here, and will hugely impact on the gameplay behaviour.

Here are some of my opinions, they may be unpopular, but my intention is to prompt discussion about the fundamentals gameplay#which will influence the system design of PVMP. I see in previous threads we are talking about class imbalance (fair point in their own but missing the point if we want system change)

1: Rank. If you have massive rank requirements, you will attract rank-farmers. I think rank 5 for all skills for Creeps will reduce rank farming on creepside, but if nothing changes for rank for freepside, then rank-farming won't stop. There are Freeps who want rank titles, items, and deeds done, so the most efficient way of doing that is rank farming, whether it be through multi-boxing, or zergball raiding or other means such as heal tagging. It is in human nature to be curious and try new things, you will find people will find new way to rank farm or new heal tagging method.

Ideally, Players play PVMP for the enjoyment of player to player combat and landscape mechanism challenges (sieges, keep flipping etc). Focus on that. Any cosmetics, any rank, any recognition, any deeds need to be carefully balanced in terms of behaviour generated.

I rather see daily side-wide achievements of how many keeps are defended or fell, battles won, rather than individual achievements, leave that the players. I see on Landroval people talk about famous players that they fought, that is fantastic individual achievement in its own right.

I remember the 5 stars system in the past, people were protective of their stars, that creates a lot of behaviours that was annoying or unappealing for pvmp. It was phased out then there is not much of stars farming/protective behaviour.

A player who got rank 15, and all deeds, and 5 stars/2.00 rating, will retire from PVMP, having achieved everything. That player is a completitionist, and often creates rank farming or whatever behaviour. On other hand, there are players who just want to get to "endgame" as soon as possible, that is being rank 15, and then start 'playing' which is mostly on Creepside but your solution will fix that, but it won't for freeps.
The sooner those type of people retire from PVMP the better. So need to balance recognising achievement/accomplishment and the behaviour they generates.



2: Levelling up. Whether you like it or not, lets be honest PVMP gets broken every time PVE updates gets released with new skills, new gameplay etc, that is not tested for PVMP, or on rare occasion, Freeps gets nerfed badly. This is not sustainable and does not give consistent enjoyable gameplay experience. Buffs and PVMP specific buff/debuff is a bandage fix.

I look at the skill bars, and Beornings and Mounted Combat. You have the mechanism for changing skills and skill bar based on the mode Man/Bear and on foot/mounted, I think it is time for introduction of PVMP mode for Freeps. That means simplified set of skills, preferable PVMP focus skills for both sides. That means new PVE updates will not change Freeps skills, therefore better transition and balance of PVMP though updates. Having said that, doesn't mean there won't be any new skills for Creeps or Freeps, no, there can continue to be new updates of new skills that are specifically tested and balanced for PVMP, and more opportunity for class balance or stone/paper/scissors type of class advantages. Time to end focus and pandering to fight clubs, this is MMORPG which means team play, not 1v1.

1v1 should be somewhat unbalanced unless you are skilful, which encourage a little bit of teaming. Huge raids should be discouraged because of the pvmp skills that just kind of "balance out" that creates stalemates, will force pvmp to go little fellowship to 12 man raids and roaming with exception of keeps where 24 man raids can be useful because there are places in Keeps you need to defend, position, which naturally create tactics, strategies and split up players.

3: Rewards, any rewards for PVMP should be PVMP focus. That means gears, items should only appear in PVMP environment, not PVE. Audacity gear is one good example. Would be good if there is a PVMP focus legendary item that use audacity and only usable in PVMP environment.


In conclusion: We want PVMP to be sustainable reliable fun play because player to player combat is unpredictable, and therefore mechanisms should support that, not spike in interest every time an update is out and then dies out because players achieved what they want or ruin experience for others. PVMP was once considered an endgame side fun, something to do everyday when they finished PVE quests/deeds, or people wanting a break from PVE, or people who enjoy PVMP, I think we need to return to that.

[KillAllFrep]

So your solution to a skill being a problem in PVP isn't to address that skill, it's to have a dev take the time to deal with individual players using that skill???

I am going to address this one first as clearly your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. I said that individual skills (players? what are they even gonna do, ban Champs who use sprint?...) SKILLS, should be reviewed. Orion has clearly stated LIs and non-moors gearing is out of scope for these changes.

It's not about getting credit for the flip, it's about being able to pick up or turn in the roughly half dozen quests in each keep. If the keep stays one color for days, new players trying to quest so they can buy the basics are out of luck.

I see, good to know. Regardless, the prevalence of quests are an aside to the intent of the zone, PvMP, and as such priority should not be given to actions that ruin PvMP i.e. autoflips, so that some players can hand in quests. If your server is so dead that keeps can not flip for literal days, that suggests "it's a problem with your server, and the way they do things" - to quote yourself.

That's an issue with certain players....

With both issues what you're describing isn't a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with your server and the way they do things. On mine both sides roam around the map. Flipping keeps to gain positional advantage and responding to flips/autoflips are what keep the fights dynamic.

It's an issue with the entirety of Arkenstone server, which probably accounts for like 50% of the total PvMP playerbase.

So, your server is either A) The golden child that can do no wrong, flipping keeps with roaming action etc. or B) Keeps don't change hands for days and your greenies are unable to hand in quests... Which is it?

And nobody will ever get into a fight because the weaker side will constantly move away from the stronger one, and they're both moving at the same speed.

So you say, and yet fights break out constantly currently, despite the fact that Creeps literally cannot outrun their opponents if outnumbered.

Reavers have Charge, Wargs have Sprint, Freepside heavies have sprints... There are ranged classes on both sides, and ways to outflank your opponent other than simply running in a straight line, there are ways to catch enemies and get them in combat.

Having parity in movement would do a great deal for the balance in PvMP and encourage wider map fights. I love duoing personally, but PvMP duo is essentially dead because the likelihood that my duo finds creeps that have a healer is 99%, and the likelihood we can kill that healer (if not more than 1) before a map in zergs us is literally zero.

[SSG_Orion]

Healtagging needs a few tweaks not healer class genocide. IMO this was the answer to the problem when there were no healers so healers get also some credit. Currently it is too much but reverting back to that problem seems to whack a mole with 2 holes.
the healer must do 2% damage to get credit? what about other classes. They should fall also under the same rule then. everyone needs to make at least 2% damage. Why Hunter who presses one button should get more credit?

I believe that you are misunderstanding the way that this will work.

I'm slated to be doing a stream sometime later this week and I will clarify again during that stream but, I think a little clarification is needed.

In order to get solo credit for defeating a player or monster player you will need to deal 2% of the total damage dealt to the target. 20k/1m This is regardless of whether you are a healer, a cc class, or a damage dealing class. Heal-tagging describes the behavior of throwing random heals on targets engaged in a fight and then waiting for the glory/commendations.

We are also looking at increasing the incentive for fellowship groups over raid groups.

[SSG_Orion]

Will there any new Patchnotes released before Preview #2 on Bullroarer gets Tested?

Yes, there should be updated release notes and I will be lurking to answer questions.

[DickDastardly]

So as a rank 14 BA we are still going to have to grind out audacity for a further 11 ranks ? Seriously ? Why on earth would I want to do that ? What recognition of existing rank are you going to give ?

[faithfulgemi27]

If you want more players to come to the Ettenmoors, then resolve the lag issues. I am not the only one who has experienced being in combat and skills are taking more than a minute to be executed. This has nothing to do with my connection or ISP because other Monster Players and Free People Players have experienced the lag as well. It has gotten so bad, how can it be enjoyable or fun? Please make this a priority.

Thanks

[Melank]

We are also looking at increasing the incentive for fellowship groups over raid groups.

Any chance to introduce a 2/2 instance within the Moors for 1 vs 1 casual encounters to happen?

Like some underground tunnel/passage that's instanced with many entrances that has 2/2 capacity for 1 Freep and 1 Creep to fill. Once both players are within the instance they get an announcement on the screen telling them that there's another player from the other faction inside that place, so they can start searching around each other to fight.

Then maybe another instanced facility inside Moors for 4/4 capacity for 2 Freeps and 2 Creeps.

[Ameranth]

Any chance to introduce a 2/2 instance within the Moors for 1 vs 1 casual encounters to happen?

Like some underground tunnel/passage that's instanced with many entrances that has 2/2 capacity for 1 Freep and 1 Creep to fill. Once both players are within the instance they get an announcement on the screen telling them that there's another player from the other faction inside that place, so they can start searching around each other to fight.

Then maybe another instanced facility inside Moors for 4/4 capacity for 2 Freeps and 2 Creeps.

You mean a place rank farmers could use to run their bots without worrying about anyone ever being able to stop them?

Always think about how a new idea could be abused, because it's inevitable that it will be.

[Silverhander]

Not a truely PvmP fun, but here are my suggestions if you are interested:

1. Making PvmP all free to all players;
2. Monthly ranking system with attractive rewards (gears, outfits, embers traceries, runes etc.) that players could use outside of moors;
3. Enable pvmp gears available outside of moors;

[Ameranth]

While the rest of us are debating the pros and cons of proposals in a civil manner, the instant anyone disagrees with your ideas you jump straight to insults. It's blindingly obvious you're just here to troll, so I'll reply in the only language you seem to understand, and then you win an ignore.

I am going to address this one first as clearly your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. I said that individual skills (players? what are they even gonna do, ban Champs who use sprint?...) SKILLS, should be reviewed. Orion has clearly stated LIs and non-moors gearing is out of scope for these changes.

Which is exactly what I said, and then you vehemently disagreed with it.

Let's revisit what Singularity originally proposed and I agreed with, and what you said in response to that, hmm?

Why don't they build nerfs into the gear I wonder. If set bonuses can buff skills, why not nerf skills? Then if the gear is required because of audacity it can have set bonuses on it that reduces champ sprint or things like that.

If certain skills are broken in the Moors they should be addressed by a dev on a case by case basis, not a blanket "FU" to anyone playing the class.

Right, you were outraged at the idea of using debuffs on PVP gear to adjust certain skills in the moors, and now you're claiming you'd rather we... adjust certain skills in the moors???

You may want to take your own advice and try reading before raging.

I see, good to know. Regardless, the prevalence of quests are an aside to the intent of the zone, PvMP, and as such priority should not be given to actions that ruin PvMP i.e. autoflips, so that some players can hand in quests. If your server is so dead that keeps can not flip for literal days, that suggests "it's a problem with your server, and the way they do things" - to quote yourself.

You think PVE in PVP is bad, got it. But without quests, how do you propose new players rank up and get the thousands of comms they need just to get the basics that would let them survive in PVP?
Go ahead, pretend you're a new player in the moors. Make a new R0 reaver on an alt account, then rank up solely by fighting ranked and geared freeps and without doing any quests or joining groups since apparently raids in your server won't invite anyone under R5. Keep in mind that as a first timer you have no existing bank of comms to get your new alt started. Let me know how that goes.

You hate autoflips because they mess with your back and forth playstyle on Ark. The back and forth every poster from Ark says they hate, yet nobody's willing to play differently. How does that make sense?
I'm curious, has anyone on your server even tried leaving the shuffle? And if you're not leaving the shuffle, why do you care if an OP or keep autoflips? You weren't going to them anyway.

So, your server is either A) The golden child that can do no wrong, flipping keeps with roaming action etc. or B) Keeps don't change hands for days and your greenies are unable to hand in quests... Which is it?

Once again you're either suffering from poor reading comprehension or being dishonest in your arguments. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the former, and try to break it down for you yet again.

A - Yes, we roam around and flip keeps. We're able to do this because they autoflip. No matter what time a group is on, there's usually a mix of keep colors on the map. My group is all high ranks, but there are groups of newer players on my server that always play together and they're generally unable to flip keeps due to simply not having the skills/traits/corruptions to survive even against npcs. Without autoflips, unless a more experienced group flips the keeps for them they're out of luck for the questing they need.

B - 'Keeps don't change hands for days.' was very clearly a prediction of what would happen on small servers without autoflips, yet you're deliberately applying that to the current state of affairs to try and back up your straw man argument. There are servers even smaller than mine that would suffer from that change. Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to have PVP because their style of play doesn't match yours?

So you say, and yet fights break out constantly currently, despite the fact that Creeps literally cannot outrun their opponents if outnumbered

Exactly! Fights break out all the time, under the current movement rules. You know, the ones you want to replace. And you're saying that creeps currently being slower than freeps and not being able to run away is somehow 'proof' that they wouldn't be able to run away if freeps were exactly the same speed???

Claiming that two sides being the same speed would result in one side being able to magically run down the other because one side is faster right now is either disingenuous or a stunning failure of logic.

[Ameranth]

Not a truely PvmP fun, but here are my suggestions if you are interested:

1. Making PvmP all free to all players;
2. Monthly ranking system with attractive rewards (gears, outfits, embers traceries, runes etc.) that players could use outside of moors;
3. Enable pvmp gears available outside of moors;

Good news! #1 is being done.

The issue with #2 is that if there's an easier way to get something, players will take it. We already have people botting in the moors just to get the purely cosmetic rewards, but letting people use those bots to get items useable on landscape would just lead to all the non-PVP players doing organized farming on a massive scale. Even without those rewards we've seen that happen more than we'd like.

#3 has been brought up before. The problem is that PVP gear needs to normalize everyone to a base level of stats in order to balance things, because it's impossible to balance creeps and npcs against the vast gulf in stats between quest gear and T5 gear. There's only two ways to do that with PVP gear, either raise the stats of the low end, or lower the stats of the high end:

A - You make PVP gear the same as mid tier raid gear so that non-raiders are brought up to a default level when they enter the moors, but raiders can still use their higher gear for a small advantage. If this was allowed out of the moors then it would render all crafting, barters, 3/6 man content, and low end raids obsolete.
B - You make it sub-par and balance the moors around those reduced stats, in which case nobody would want to use it on landscape play anyway.

The current system makes PVP gear only useable in the moors, which means the devs can adjust stats as needed without having to worry about how it will affect landscape play.

[Silverhander]

Good news! #1 is being done.

The issue with #2 is that if there's an easier way to get something, players will take it. We already have people botting in the moors just to get the purely cosmetic rewards, but letting people use those bots to get items useable on landscape would just lead to all the non-PVP players doing organized farming on a massive scale. Even without those rewards we've seen that happen more than we'd like.

#3 has been brought up before. The problem is that PVP gear needs to normalize everyone to a base level of stats in order to balance things, because it's impossible to balance creeps and npcs against the vast gulf in stats between quest gear and T5 gear. There's only two ways to do that with PVP gear, either raise the stats of the low end, or lower the stats of the high end:

A - You make PVP gear the same as mid tier raid gear so that non-raiders are brought up to a default level when they enter the moors, but raiders can still use their higher gear for a small advantage. If this was allowed out of the moors then it would render all crafting, barters, 3/6 man content, and low end raids obsolete.
B - You make it sub-par and balance the moors around those reduced stats, in which case nobody would want to use it on landscape play anyway.

The current system makes PVP gear only useable in the moors, which means the devs can adjust stats as needed without having to worry about how it will affect landscape play.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is PvmP is not attractive to many players at all. No matter what kind of games, there are always players exploiting bugs or bot to gain benefits, that's not a big problem, tbh. The main problem is players find nothing to do, and quit the game.

[KillAllFrep]

Loads of misunderstandings

Uhh, yeah, there's too much to address here. Again, your comprehension of my points leaves much to be desired and as such I won't bother refuting your points.

I suggest you spend some time re-reading and really really thinking about what the words I write mean as they're fairly carefully written, and then you'll understand that at no point did I agree with anything you've written unless that's explicitly what I stated.

All of your ideas revolve around how to take a PvMP zone and make it more PvE friendly, when it's already extremely easy to spend a 6 hour play session just PvE'ing as-is. More PvE isn't an issue at all, and good PvE opportunities around the map will encourage fights around the map as PvE'ers will attract PvMP'ers to come and kill them, that's great, but if you want PvE to the detriment of PvMP, just go PvE in a PvE zone...

[GB-Esty]

I believe that you are misunderstanding the way that this will work.

I'm slated to be doing a stream sometime later this week and I will clarify again during that stream but, I think a little clarification is needed.

In order to get solo credit for defeating a player or monster player you will need to deal 2% of the total damage dealt to the target. 20k/1m This is regardless of whether you are a healer, a cc class, or a damage dealing class. Heal-tagging describes the behavior of throwing random heals on targets engaged in a fight and then waiting for the glory/commendations.

We are also looking at increasing the incentive for fellowship groups over raid groups.

I think I'm misunderstanding too because it seems like you're suggesting that healing and CC are somehow less valid contributions to a fight than simply dealing damage? Whilst I agree that the current implementation has flaws and bugs which should be addressed, CC and healing remain equally important and necessary contributions and deserve to be recognised as such. If you want to make it so they only get rewarded for actual damage healed or CC performed then I'm all for it, but going back to damage being essentially the only recognised form of acceptable play is a dreadful idea. I thought we learnt that lesson years ago when we changed it in the first place.

Likewise, I dislike the attempt to make grouping or raiding the only forms of acceptable play (particularly for non-damage dealing classes). Even ignoring the fact that your servers can't handle raids*, I often play solo as a healer simply because I prefer the style of play for several reasons. Firstly, because within a raid, you are obliged first to your group, then to your raid, and finally to anyone outside of the raid. I don't enjoy that ordering in part because new players are frequently rejected from groups or raids and will consequently receive the least help despite often having the greatest need. Secondly, because I don't just want to stare at green bars all day. I enjoy reading and responding to the context of the battle; standing at the side-lines and determining who is most in need and who has the greatest priority even if they're not in my group or raid. Often that involves using the status, class, rank, location, and numerical data of allies and opponents to predict who needs help before the first attack even lands on them and getting the protective HoTs, shields, or buffs on them that will mean the difference between them living or dying.

Killing all of that because some idiots exploit a flaw in the current implementation to gain meaningless ranks seems like a massive over-reaction. Ranks which, by the way, you're making even less relevant so why does it even matter!? Which leads me on to another change I just don't understand - I get reducing the grind for new creep players by allowing them to have access to skills earlier. Great! But at the same time you're replacing that grind with an even bigger commendation grind instead? Commendations, which unlike Renown or Infamy are mainly gained from PvE content instead of PvP? Perhaps the left hand needs to talk to the right on that one.

*you can say that other devs are working on fixing that and that your vision shouldn't be constrained by the current state of the game, but frankly the game is often unplayable and has been for so long that pinning your hopes on those underlying issues being resolved any time soon seems.. bold.

[Brolad]

You mean a place rank farmers could use to run their bots without worrying about anyone ever being able to stop them?

Always think about how a new idea could be abused, because it's inevitable that it will be.

There is of course a chance that someone would abuse an instanced area like that for rank farming, but the simple solution would be to limit comm/infamy/renown gains in that area, or to limit how many times you can duel the same player in an hour, or to stop giving comms/infamy/renown after several fights there with a daily reset, etc.

But even if a 1v1 area was a thing (which is unlikely as it's not anywhere near the priority for fixing Moors) and was somehow really abused for rank farming, rankfarming by repeatedly defeating a single character is not even more efficient than simply joining a raid v raid fight. "Real" rank farming yields much faster gains than any 1v1 or 2v2 or 1v2 way ever could, and it usually happens off the map.

[Melank]

You mean a place rank farmers could use to run their bots without worrying about anyone ever being able to stop them?

Always think about how a new idea could be abused, because it's inevitable that it will be.

That never happened in WoW with 100 million active players.

The fact that it may happen in Lotro with less than 1/20 WoW's playerbase and less than 1/3 of its active playerbase actively focused on PvMP makes it much less probable.


No need to inflate stuff that it is really unlikely to happen at all.

I've seen people complain about gold sellers in Lotro and there are no gold sellers or gold offers related to Lotro across all MMO gold selling websites. It has more to do with their ghosts.

[Melank]

2. Monthly ranking system with attractive rewards (gears, outfits, embers traceries, runes etc.) that players could use outside of moors;

There should be 3 month seasons of PvMP that rewards players according to the amount of points they were able to get through these 3 months.

After the 3 months are over, the table restarts and a new PvMP season starts.


Like the current LI reward track seasons. But with competition.

First rank in the entire season may get tons of rewards.


Main issue with PvMP is that once a player gets to highest rank it becomes pointless. It would be the same as getting to level cap at PvE and not having anything to do afterwards.

[Zaheer]

There should be 3 month seasons of PvMP that rewards players according to the amount of points they were able to get through these 3 months.

After the 3 months are over, the table restarts and a new PvMP season starts.


Like the current LI reward track seasons. But with competition.

First rank in the entire season may get tons of rewards.


Main issue with PvMP is that once a player gets to highest rank it becomes pointless. It would be the same as getting to level cap at PvE and not having anything to do afterwards.

This ain't league of legends, besides, if you rlly want competition you completely strip rank requirements away, its ########.
Also, rewards I personally don't give a sht about, it also encourages dumb farming, which we exactly don't want.

Think you also forget that not everyone seeks the competition, ppl like me just want to take enjoyment in the fights, creating builds, build plans, concepts, theory crafting, and putting that to the test.

''Main issue with PvMP is that once a player gets to highest rank it becomes pointless. It would be the same as getting to level cap at PvE and not having anything to do afterwards.''

point of PvMP ain't rank m8, rank is only important to those who wanna show it off, or keep it as a trophy that bears no importance except to the person himself who wants to be proud of his 60 pixels icon with a 15 sticker on it. It's dumb and it really doesn't mean anything. The ranks themselves are pointless.

All gear should be available for rank 1
All creep skills should be available from rank 1

and neither of these 2 factors should take longer than a day to get.


I suppose we can keep ranks, as a nice Instagram trophy for those who care so much about it, to feel proud of it, to feed the ego and get that little dopamine out like the average champ enthusiast tries to get.

But keep all items, pots, buffs meant for moors untied from ranks, ty.