Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[gildhur]

That could work, yes. But then again... there should be dwarves in the mountains above and they said done with dwarfs.

I don't think "done with dwarves" meant that there would be no more dwarf NPCs added to the game in future updates. The story just won't be about dwarves and only dwarves like it has been for the last several years.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I don't think "done with dwarves" meant that there would be no more dwarf NPCs added to the game in future updates. The story just won't be about dwarves and only dwarves like it has been for the last several years.

I have two dwarves in 'Before the Shadow.' Just two, though.

MoL

[Scenario]

The decision to develop Cardolan and the Swanfleet seems to have been a relatively recent decision, so even if there weren't the issue of situating a lvl 140 zone next to a sub-30 zone, I doubt the roadmap for the endgame takes us to Minhiriath in the near future.

Not too long ago (at least in terms of the development of LOTRO), our team came up with about 16 years worth of story pitches for our ongoing narrative efforts. While not exactly what we originally pitched, Swanfleet and Cardolan (or CardoSwan as we affectionately call it) was a component of one of those pitches. We are certainly very hesitant to drop a current level cap region right next to beginner zones, but our interest in exploring and experimenting within Eriador over the last year helped these regions feel like they had a compelling home.

Will we ever get to places like Minhiriath, Eryn Vorn, and Lond Daer? I'll never say never - because there's always the chance we will in the future (remember - we "never" thought we'd get to Moria, or Mordor!)! But in our immediate future? Those areas will have to wait as we wade through other lands!

[Phantion]

Not too long ago (at least in terms of the development of LOTRO), our team came up with about 16 years worth of story pitches for our ongoing narrative efforts. While not exactly what we originally pitched, Swanfleet and Cardolan (or CardoSwan as we affectionately call it) was a component of one of those pitches. We are certainly very hesitant to drop a current level cap region right next to beginner zones, but our interest in exploring and experimenting within Eriador over the last year helped these regions feel like they had a compelling home.

Will we ever get to places like Minhiriath, Eryn Vorn, and Lond Daer? I'll never say never - because there's always the chance we will in the future (remember - we "never" thought we'd get to Moria, or Mordor!)! But in our immediate future? Those areas will have to wait as we wade through other lands!

That's very awesome to hear the team came up with 16 years worth of material!


((SPOILERS below in my post that talks of several storylines for those who haven't played through game yet)







My hope is that Throkhâr the Hunger is one of them The World-Eater...... mastermind, hidden..................... honestly, he's a very compelling "dangerous opponent" - a threat worse than Hrimil from what the diction surrounding him hints at. I'd love to see all these strange occurrences of the Nameless linked to him --- from that 1 mission in Mt. Gundabad to the Shadowed King beneath the Foundations of Stone to the Nameless in the Nardol Quarry in Taur Druadan to that Wracking-Hall with the Nameless "portal" in the top level of Minas Morgul to the business with the earthquakes and the Howling Pit in Jarnfast / Iron Hills............


............ and, for all we know, Throkhâr's the real baddie responsible for Rhun's devastation............. and perhaps............ he was one of those "Ungoliant"-type evils, perhaps one whom Morgoth subdued, perhaps one who kind of hid "waiting in the wings" for Sauron to fall........ only to try to emerge ............. but for us players! *Laughs!*

And he would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling Minstrels!

And I do hope he has some personality, too! That Throkhâr isn't just another non-descript "nameless horror" like the Mistress of Pestilence was, etc.- but an opponent who might be said to have a mind (*as well as an insatiable hunger).

SWTOR did this to great effect with it's "Darth Tenebrae" / Valkorian villain....... always waiting in the shadows....... never knew when or if or in what form he was going to strike, and when he did........................... ........... ouch. I like a villain who can play with the player's mind and try to manipulate............... you can do a lot with dreams and strange visions, for example............. tons of potential there, especially given that his "herald" was wearing the guise of Durin.............. tons of potential..............

Obviously.......... he couldn't prove as dangerous as Sauron or Morgoth, of course.................... but I think a balance could be struck, a careful one, just as with the battles with Hrimil and Thaurlach among other examples: perhaps as capable as Sauron but not fully permitted for those plans to reach fruition or something along those lines. Frodo still saves Middle-earth writ large! But, as Tolkien hints plenty............ there were plenty of other scary things out there in Middle-earth, some more powerful than others.................. a lot can come from Gandalf's line: "For there are far older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world" and his follow-up RE- the Nameless, "Even Sauron knows them not. For they are older than he" (Tolkien, FOTR; TTT).

Throkhâr is honestly, out of everyone - even Borangos the Horror, Urudani, Lhaereth, etc.............. the antagonist I find most compelling, even with what little we know of him so far. Please also don't forget from Volume II the suggestion that Gwaithnor could come back!!! So........... lots of fascinating stuff I can't wait to see unfold in-game!


I look forward to seeing where LOTRO leads us next! I'm also looking forward to that "salt water" hint in the future..... who knows? Maybe we can finally tell the people of Anfalas how their Lord Golasgil perished facing a mighty Olog in the Battle of the Black Gate... (*he did ask us to with his dying breath, after all!)

Tyvm!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

So it's NOT Minhiriath, hmm. @Scenario, since you're lurking here... could you check your inbox? Thanks!

Obviously.......... he couldn't prove as dangerous as Sauron or Morgoth, of course.................... but I think a balance could be struck, a careful one, just as with the battles with Hrimil and Thaurlach

perhaps as capable as Sauron but not fully permitted for those plans to reach fruition or something along those lines. Frodo still saves Middle-earth writ large!

But, as Tolkien hints plenty............ there were plenty of other scary things out there in Middle-earth, some more powerful than others.................. a lot can come from Gandalf's line: "For there are far older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world" and his follow-up RE- the Nameless, "Even Sauron knows them not. For they are older than he" (Tolkien, FOTR; TTT).

Throkhâr The Hunger already seems like more of a threat than Hrimil and Thaurlach combined. Like, a being whose entire premise is to consume the world? Shelob was scary (and went nuts with spider infestation in LOTRO) but merely a petty descendant of Ungoliant (animalistic in nature) and Sauron knew all about her. Throkhâr? Sounds like he can have balrogs and spiders for snacks... and indeed it is likely Gwathnor (a bit weaker version of balrog?) is merely a part of Nameless hierarchy but not a boss. Now imagine there was also the mention of the "Nameless Mother"....... so it's not even Throkhâr who is the progenitor..... Imagine that! The scale of the ancient forces at play here.... pretty serious. Any attempt to resolve it anytime soon on the timeline and make it look like Sauron is still the worst thing that happened will automatically turn it into a let-down and, perhaps, contradictory to what was being teased :P

Frodo saved Middle-earth of his time (with Sauron as this big big big obstacle of the Third Age/War of the Ring, something that marked the end of the age) so now that's a pickle no matter how you spin it. Lore-wise Throkhâr is not really a problem, since Tolkien clearly mentioned these primordial, unknown things (unknown even to the Valar) and once you dive deep into the "structure" of Arda (and what's beyond) there are certainly things to play with! But overshadowing the impact of Sauron? Throughout the world or in minds of our main book NPCs? Hrimil - kind of - already done it as far as all dwarves (except for Gimli) are concerned, adding Throkhâr to the list (the weight of which would be x10 that of Hrimil) sounds like a terrible idea. That's why I hope there are no weird legal obstacles in place and - if they're willing, I hope it happens eventually - they can give us the Scouring, the resolution to Frodo's story or even move us into Fourth Age (that's in the Appendices, so theoretically they should be able to do that just fine). That way, they could take us on a really wild wild ride with Throkhâr no problem + I would love to see things like the birth of Aragorn's son anyway, so why not. (I mean, if not SSG... who will ever take us into some of the Fourth Age stuff?).

[TesalionLortus]

We are certainly very hesitant to drop a current level cap region right next to beginner zones

Being careful is great, but nevertheless I will say "very hesitant" might be an overkill. After all, you can always have only a narrow pathway leading to such a region from lower lvl Eriador side or... in order to not lean too heavily into fishbowl design again, you can put phasing barricades at the borders (for story reasons) that disappear after a story event (like Black Gate), so lower levels are barred from entry for their own safety. I mean, possibilities are limitless and there are certainly solid solutions to be found... if cap storyline takes you there, seriously, don't be "hesitant" : )

For one thing, it's like guaranteed someday we gotta head back to Shire or see Tower Hills, Grey Havens, plus the Angmarim story still feels like it needs a resolution closer home too, so... it's not like you can actually avoid doing that anyway

[provamail10]

Not too long ago (at least in terms of the development of LOTRO), our team came up with about 16 years worth of story pitches for our ongoing narrative efforts. While not exactly what we originally pitched, Swanfleet and Cardolan (or CardoSwan as we affectionately call it) was a component of one of those pitches. We are certainly very hesitant to drop a current level cap region right next to beginner zones, but our interest in exploring and experimenting within Eriador over the last year helped these regions feel like they had a compelling home.

Will we ever get to places like Minhiriath, Eryn Vorn, and Lond Daer? I'll never say never - because there's always the chance we will in the future (remember - we "never" thought we'd get to Moria, or Mordor!)! But in our immediate future? Those areas will have to wait as we wade through other lands!

@scenario What about a level cap zone in Gondor? Anfalas, Tolfalas, Pinnath Gelin, Andrast, Harondor... All of them sea-salted, and none of them prone to make you hesitate about the level gap. Are they also out of your immediate future?

[Scenario]

Being careful is great, but nevertheless I will say "very hesitant" might be an overkill. After all, you can always have only a narrow pathway leading to such a region from lower lvl Eriador side or... in order to not lean too heavily into fishbowl design again, you can put phasing barricades at the borders (for story reasons) that disappear after a story event (like Black Gate), so lower levels are barred from entry for their own safety. I mean, possibilities are limitless and there are certainly solid solutions to be found... if cap storyline takes you there, seriously, don't be "hesitant" : )

For one thing, it's like guaranteed someday we gotta head back to Shire or see Tower Hills, Grey Havens, plus the Angmarim story still feels like it needs a resolution closer home too, so... it's not like you can actually avoid doing that anyway

I've discussed this before. We are much more comfortable with having high level and low level areas bordering each other when they aren't beginner areas. We've done it before - with Lothlorien and Vales of Anduin, for example. But by that point in the game, players are no longer "new" and they are better able to understand the threats and risks. Putting a level 140 region right next to a level 10-20 region - that's just asking for new or inexperienced players to be confused and frustrated by their experience and that is something we seek to mitigate if we can.

[LagunaD2]

But phasing is a thing, is it not?

If you can phase Minas Tirith (at least four times, by my count), Osgiliath (three times?) and most of Mordor, it seems like you can phase anything you want, including denizens of entirely different levels.

You wouldn't want to overdo this sort of thing, but it seems like an efficient way to leverage the same assets into more content.

[TesalionLortus]

But phasing is a thing, is it not?

If you can phase Minas Tirith (at least four times, by my count), Osgiliath (three times?) and most of Mordor, it seems like you can phase anything you want, including denizens of entirely different levels.

You wouldn't want to overdo this sort of thing, but it seems like an efficient way to leverage the same assets into more content.

These places aren't phased, they exist physically in different space. But yeah, there was phasing used - with black gate. Locked/ruined. So it's possible to some extent with structures. So they can do that at any such "problematic" border, closed border/open border, that's all I was saying. There is literally no spot in Eriador that one can choose and avoid running into lower lvl area in proximity. So they actually do have options to avoid newbie frustration when push comes to shove.

Like, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in a year, but Eriador is still such a big place... and I would like to see some further Eriador stories in new places given plotline opportunities - so not just low lvl ones set "in the old timeline" .

[Derquin]

Generally I would not care that much about low level or high level/level cap regions.

But since the reward track is locked for chars without legendary weapons playing low level regions on higher chars has become somewhat "troublesome". Either I contribute to the reward track and neglect lower regions or I play lower regions and neglect any or significant contribution to reward track.

Please consider opening the reward track to all levels after the intro.

[itshuntah31]

Looking at the new screenshots that dropped with the Before the Shadow mini expansion announcement recently, there's something interesting things I'm noting:

Screenshot 1: This looks to be a Dunlending village in the Swanfleet region, based on the Enedwaith-like trees and the marsh. I'm left to conclude based on this and another screenshot that Dunlendings will play a larger role than I thought in the region.

Screenshot 2: Not really much to see here other than that we are getting new textures for the Cardolan ruin.

Screenshot 3: This is the most interesting for me, look at the blending of Bree buildings with Dunlending towers around the perimeter. I think this might be Herne in Cardolan based on the fact that on the Cardolan map it appears to be a small town with a tight street pattern, which matches what I see here. It's also nestled in a crevice, which looks like how Herne appears on the map. I think it's super cool to see this blend, and I have to wonder whether this is an occupation of the town or a peaceful blending of Bree-Land culture with Dunlending culture? (On a side note, I made a post a while back where I had an expac idea for LOTRO called the Desolation of Eriador that covered the Cardolan region, and it featured a village named Thistleglynn in roughly the same spot that also was a blend of Bree and Dunlending influence. Just a coincidence

Screenshot 4: A river shot. A little hard to tell where this is since there are so many different waterways in the maps we've seen, but I would guess around Nimbarth??

Screenshot 5: Mainly showing off cosmetics, but this is a camp with a milestone. It makes sense that very small settlements/camps are going to need milestones, since larger settlements aren't really common across the vast wilderness. There seems to be a large tent in the corner. Perhaps this is a Ranger camp?

Screenshot 6: WOW! This must be Caras Gelebren, right? Why isn't it ruined like Tham Mirdain? Is there some kind of Elvish preservation power occurring here that's maintaining it in this state? Maybe there are still elves living there doing upkeep? If so, then that would allow SSG to tell Second Age stories through those Elves, which would be something really cool to see.

[seekingerin]

I have two dwarves in 'Before the Shadow.' Just two, though.

MoL

I think two is an acceptable number of dwarves, lol. (Seriously, I do hope we get to meet the dwarves of the White Mountains someday. There have been in-game references to the White Mountain dwarves, so I kept waiting for them to show up; the fact that they never did bugs me, lol.)

Not too long ago (at least in terms of the development of LOTRO), our team came up with about 16 years worth of story pitches for our ongoing narrative efforts. While not exactly what we originally pitched, Swanfleet and Cardolan (or CardoSwan as we affectionately call it) was a component of one of those pitches. We are certainly very hesitant to drop a current level cap region right next to beginner zones, but our interest in exploring and experimenting within Eriador over the last year helped these regions feel like they had a compelling home.

Will we ever get to places like Minhiriath, Eryn Vorn, and Lond Daer? I'll never say never - because there's always the chance we will in the future (remember - we "never" thought we'd get to Moria, or Mordor!)! But in our immediate future? Those areas will have to wait as we wade through other lands!

16 years worth of pitches! That's very exciting to hear.

I hope we do do get to see the rest of southern Eriador eventually. As much as I love LOTRO's game world, it's often structured in a very linear way. We follow the East Road; we follow the line of the Misty Mountains; we loop around the White Mountains; we beeline toward the Black Gate; we follow the Anduin northward. We don't have much opportunity to stray from those linear routes. That's understandable; it's a consequence of the game following the Fellowship's linear journey toward Mordor. But I think we probably lose something as a result of the fact that we can't just pick any random direction and ride; for such a massive game world, it doesn't feel as open as it should. I recently had the startling realization that, once Cardolan is added, the Bree-Land will be the only zone we can exit to the north, south, east, or west without hitting a loading screen. It's the first time we get that. That's what's exciting about CardoSwan (great name ) for me. I think it's going to make Eriador, at least, feel much, much bigger and more open and connected. Adding places like Minhiriath and Eryn Vorn, and even places like the Southfarthing, the rest of the Ered Luin, or any of the many gaps Tirian-Hammerfist mentions at the beginning of this thread, would help alleviate that boxed-in feeling and continue the work of making Middle Earth feel like a fully open world.

My hope is that Throkhâr the Hunger is one of them The World-Eater...... mastermind, hidden..................... honestly, he's a very compelling "dangerous opponent" - a threat worse than Hrimil from what the diction surrounding him hints at. I'd love to see all these strange occurrences of the Nameless linked to him --- from that 1 mission in Mt. Gundabad to the Shadowed King beneath the Foundations of Stone to the Nameless in the Nardol Quarry in Taur Druadan to that Wracking-Hall with the Nameless "portal" in the top level of Minas Morgul to the business with the earthquakes and the Howling Pit in Jarnfast / Iron Hills............

I find the Throkhar storyline super compelling. I'd honestly expected Throkhar and the nameless to play a much bigger part in Gundabad, but I'm eager to see what happens with them whenever it happens.

I look forward to seeing where LOTRO leads us next! I'm also looking forward to that "salt water" hint in the future..... who knows? Maybe we can finally tell the people of Anfalas how their Lord Golasgil perished facing a mighty Olog in the Battle of the Black Gate... (*he did ask us to with his dying breath, after all!)

Our promise to Golasgil has stuck with me. I hope we get to fulfill it someday! (Confession: I was going to mention it when I was talking about the story threads that might take us to Anfalas a few posts back, but I couldn't remember which lord it was we made our promise to, lol. I hope my character has a better memory than me!)

I've discussed this before. We are much more comfortable with having high level and low level areas bordering each other when they aren't beginner areas. We've done it before - with Lothlorien and Vales of Anduin, for example. But by that point in the game, players are no longer "new" and they are better able to understand the threats and risks. Putting a level 140 region right next to a level 10-20 region - that's just asking for new or inexperienced players to be confused and frustrated by their experience and that is something we seek to mitigate if we can.

I do think that, by a certain point, you can trust players to be savvy enough to not wander into higher-level zones. I'm not sure what that point is, but I certainly don't think it should hold back development beyond Eriador.

One thought: a simple onscreen message when a player crosses into a higher-level area would probably go a long way toward alerting players that they're in dangerous territory. Like, something like the World broadcast messages that stays on player's screens any time they're in an area more than 20 or 30 levels higher than their current level, with exceptions made for safe areas like Rivendell? It would be annoying and immersion-breaking, but most players probably wouldn't encounter it very often.

[seekingerin]

Looking at the new screenshots that dropped with the Before the Shadow mini expansion announcement recently, there's something interesting things I'm noting:

Screenshot 1: This looks to be a Dunlending village in the Swanfleet region, based on the Enedwaith-like trees and the marsh. I'm left to conclude based on this and another screenshot that Dunlendings will play a larger role than I thought in the region.

I'd wondered if there would be a Dunlending presence in the Swanfleet, given the Dunlendings who show up in the Angle.

Screenshot 3: This is the most interesting for me, look at the blending of Bree buildings with Dunlending towers around the perimeter. I think this might be Herne in Cardolan based on the fact that on the Cardolan map it appears to be a small town with a tight street pattern, which matches what I see here. It's also nestled in a crevice, which looks like how Herne appears on the map. I think it's super cool to see this blend, and I have to wonder whether this is an occupation of the town or a peaceful blending of Bree-Land culture with Dunlending culture? (On a side note, I made a post a while back where I had an expac idea for LOTRO called the Desolation of Eriador that covered the Cardolan region, and it featured a village named Thistleglynn in roughly the same spot that also was a blend of Bree and Dunlending influence. Just a coincidence

I love the mixture of cultural styles here. It makes sense that we would see contact between various cultures in this part of the world. IIRC, the Bree-Landers originally came from Dunland, so it's not too surprising to see a mixed settlement.

Screenshot 6: WOW! This must be Caras Gelebren, right? Why isn't it ruined like Tham Mirdain? Is there some kind of Elvish preservation power occurring here that's maintaining it in this state? Maybe there are still elves living there doing upkeep? If so, then that would allow SSG to tell Second Age stories through those Elves, which would be something really cool to see.

I've been wondering if we would see any current elven settlements in the Swanfleet. The conical mountains in the background look reminiscent of the mountains around Echad Mirobel, so I would guess this is at least close to Caras Gelebren, and possibly Caras Gelebren itself. It is interesting that it's in such good shape, but I don't know if it means that there are elves living there now, if it's some magical preservation as itshuntah31 suggests, or if this might be a flashback of some sort.

[Scenario]

I do think that, by a certain point, you can trust players to be savvy enough to not wander into higher-level zones. I'm not sure what that point is, but I certainly don't think it should hold back development beyond Eriador.

One thought: a simple onscreen message when a player crosses into a higher-level area would probably go a long way toward alerting players that they're in dangerous territory. Like, something like the World broadcast messages that stays on player's screens any time they're in an area more than 20 or 30 levels higher than their current level, with exceptions made for safe areas like Rivendell? It would be annoying and immersion-breaking, but most players probably wouldn't encounter it very often.

The UI does inform players when they are entering a much higher level area. But, like I've said, I think it is prudent for us to be much more careful about this sort of then when it comes to lands bordering "newbie" landscape. With any game, it is very easy for new players to fall off of an experience if they are met with something frustrating. And while the World team doesn't typically have control over the systems or quests, we can advocate for the new player experience in our landscape.

[Atomos]

The UI does inform players when they are entering a much higher level area. But, like I've said, I think it is prudent for us to be much more careful about this sort of then when it comes to lands bordering "newbie" landscape. With any game, it is very easy for new players to fall off of an experience if they are met with something frustrating. And while the World team doesn't typically have control over the systems or quests, we can advocate for the new player experience in our landscape.

I wonder if for future areas it would be possible to use the landscape layers system or instead use an item, such as the one used at the Vales of Anduin to teleport to Mordor Besieged, to optionally teleport to a level-capped version of the same area.

That way level-capped players could access landscape quests that are designed for them with appropriate rewards, but the lower level players for which the default version of the area was designed for could avoid going to the level-capped version of the area (or use another item in the level-capped version of the area to teleport back to the lower level version if they went there by accident).

This would mean landscape quests in the new area would still be appealing to level-capped players, instead of them one-shotting everything.

[seekingerin]

I've been doing the Bilbo's birthday quest tonight, because I want another of Scribe's Bookstand for a premium house. As I've been running through the quest, I've been thinking how unfortunate it is that there are certain places in Middle Earth that many of us want to see--the Southfarthing, the Tower Hills/Far Downs, and the Grey Havens--that we're unlikely to see for a very, very long time. As I was thinking this over, I began to mull over what places I would most like to see added to the game. Like, if SSG had X number of years to continue to develop the game and then they had to put the game in maintenance mode, what areas would I want them to spend the remaining time developing? This is what I came up with:

* The abovementioned three areas: the Southfarthing, the Tower Hills/Far Downs

* Anfalas, the Pinnath Gelin, and the rest of Mirkwood. Gondor and Mirkwood both feel smaller to me than they should, given their geographic extent and their importance in the lore, and I would really like to see them finished someday.

* The Northern Ered Luin and the Lhun valley. I think these would accomplish several things at once. They could connect Ered Luin, Yondershire, Evendim, and Forochel; they would help this part of the game world feel much bigger (helping to address that oddly linear feel of the game world that I mentioned a few posts back); SSG would have an opportunity to make the Longbeards' presence in the Ered Luin feel less underwhelming; and it would give us an opportunity to allow us to meet another dwarven clan or two (after the Azanulbizar quests, it really does feel strange that we never encounter all these other dwarven clans).

* A zone consisting of what Tirian-Hammerfist refers to as The Goblins of Mount Gram and The Weather Marches, and perhaps the area he refers to as Remnants of Rhudaur. The Goblins of Mount Gram/The Weather Marches would help connect and embiggen the northeastern part of Eriador the same way I'm hoping CardoSwan will for central and eastern Eriador and the way I imagine the Northern Ered Luin and Lhun valley will for western Eriador. Remnants of Rhudaur would open up the area around Rivendell and perhaps allow SSG to slip in that alternate route to the High Pass that bypasses Rivendell, as discussed elsewhere in this thread. More importantly, I think it would round out the history of the wars between Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur; Rhudaur really doesn't have the same kind of presence in the game world that Arthedain does and Cardolan soon will. I think it would be good for the hillmen to have a bigger presence in the game world too, which these areas would allow SSG to do.

A lot of this goes back to filling gaps in the game world and developing areas that feel underdeveloped in the current game world. As eager as I am to see some new endgame content in 2023, I do hope SSG will still be able to spend some time expanding Eriador and other lower-level areas, because I do think it's doing wonders for the feel of Eriador.

What areas is everyone else most interested in seeing?

[TesalionLortus]

What areas is everyone else most interested in seeing?

If we're being gloomy... any area that makes sense because it allows them to complete the storylines. Middle-earth museum is all fine but surely you're not telling me I was here for so long (and more in future!) to just accept the fact 20+ years was not enough to complete some of these plot threads?

I know the whole "we're doing Gundabad so we can be done with dwarves and their story" was often framed as such but I don't buy it (or just don't get it). The dwarven story has ended just fine with the conclusion of Ered Mithrin and then conclusion of Voin's story in Minas Morgul. Durin was established as a nice character, a potential reincarnation of the first Durin who might reconquer Gundabad and Moria (potentially in Fourth Age), which was a great hint, but there was no immediate need to continue this story. In the end, Hrimil was imprisoned under the ice too, and you might as well say "well, maybe she went to sleep for now" based on what we know about dragons, so not an immediate threat either.

Not that I'm complaining, Gundabad was amazing, and that's GREAT, but still... yeah... pretty please focus on plots that actually need resolution/continuation FIRST rather than brand new ones all the time, because if we're being gloomy, with talk about "maintenance mode" - that's kinda what you would need to keep in mind, no? But if they have just this growing list of plot threads but don't resolve any old ones... a truly satisfying plot resolution surely not gonna happen, even if the dreaded maintenance mode is 10-15 years away. (this is in huge part why I hope we're NOT going to Harad for X years now.... which would only add to the growing pile but not resolve anything other than some brand new Harad ones)

* The abovementioned three areas: the Southfarthing, the Tower Hills/Far Downs


the way I imagine the Northern Ered Luin and Lhun valley will for western Eriador. Remnants of Rhudaur would open up the area around Rivendell and perhaps allow SSG to slip in that alternate route to the High Pass that bypasses Rivendell, as discussed elsewhere in this thread. More importantly, I think it would round out the history of the wars between Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur; Rhudaur really doesn't have the same kind of presence in the game world that Arthedain does and Cardolan soon will. I think it would be good for the hillmen to have a bigger presence in the game world too, which these areas would allow SSG to do.


A lot of this goes back to filling gaps in the game world and developing areas that feel underdeveloped in the current game world. As eager as I am to see some new endgame content in 2023, I do hope SSG will still be able to spend some time expanding Eriador and other lower-level areas, because I do think it's doing wonders for the feel of Eriador.

YES to all of that, but in a way that allows them to tell some of the more current stories as well, where it makes sense. Except... if they're really THAT stubborn to avoid Southfarthing/the Scouring/Tower Hills/Grey Havens because they don't want to progress the book's storyline into these areas (which makes no sense, unless I don't know about something crucial) + they're very reluctant to make cap zones in areas adjacent to lower lvl zones (which would be almost everywhere in Eriador!) it is essentially a "death sentence" to the possibility of telling relevant stories in Eriador and having some cap content in Eriador. That's why I pointed out they *have ways of making it work* - with phasing barriers at the borders, for example, so you're not really damaging lower lvl experience and you can actually keep lower lvl folks out of such zones. Given a good prospect of such cap zone in Eriador - so if it was something that would tie well into a cap story they might want to tell - well... in that case, they shouldn't be reluctant to try it


ANYWAY... I think stories that's been heavily developed/hinted at are pretty important, not just new landmass and going back to older stories with new context, so if SSG is reading this, well, I hope you are aware of this But otherwise... let's stop it! Lotro will last for another 15 and then 20+ years! I refuse to believe otherwise!

(though, technically... to make such timescale a reality I really do believe the game gotta take care of free-roaming and alternative landscape ways to gain exp... you know: modern audiences, different game styles, vastly increased replayability, different "attention span tolerance" levels with different gamers and all that...)

[provamail10]

What areas is everyone else most interested in seeing?

1) All of Gondor. The landscape was undeveloped, so I'd like to have it completed and expanded towards west and south. That is my main wish.

2) The remnants of Rhudaur.

3) Dead Marches expanded and Emyn Muil. That would complete Frodo's Journey.

[Feral_Yoda]

What areas is everyone else most interested in seeing?

I think a general homeland for each available option in character creation would be great. So i'm super interested in seeing Lindon.

But I'll also throw out what i most want to see in each area:

Eriador - the rest of West Eriador (South and North Ered Luin, Lhun Valley, Tower Hills, and the South Farthing) and the last remnants of Beleriand... (i.e. Lindon, Forlindon, Harlindon, Tol Fuin, and Himling). And i'd also love more Misty Mountains on the West side...

Rhovanion - Eastern Rhovanion (Brownlands, Emyn Muil, Dorwinion, Middle Mirkwood and the Bite) and Rhun... maybe even as far as the Orocarni. And like above more Misty Mountains on the East side.

Gondor/Mordor - Harandor, Nurn, and Umbar above other areas, but Khand and Northern Harad would also be cool.

[Valather89]

I believe on his latest stream Cordovan stated something around the lines of "there's a big chance of us doing more lower level zones", which I liked. Swanfleet and Cardolan haven't even released yet, and I recall Severlin said that at the very least the next two updates after that will focus on endgame (the first one being an instance cluster and the second one being an actual new zone, or something like that). So perhaps we won't get a new "filling the gaps" zone at all in 2023 - which is fair enough after getting an entire year mostly focused around lower level content. Nevertheless, I still liked hearing that and I appreciate having something to look forward to in this department.

About which area I'm most interested in, that would be the north of the Lone-lands/east of the North Downs void. It's my biggest LOTRO "obsession" at this point, hah. It's true that there's already a lot of content for the 1 to 50 leveling experience, but that single gap being filled in is long due and would do wonders for a more connected and cohesive Eriador, in my opinion. There will always be the issue with the Ettenmoors being its own isolated zone, but that's unavoidable. Story-wise, and as some of you guys said, it would flesh out the lore about Rhudaur and the Hill-men even more, as well as maybe Mt. Gram.

As for Rhovanion, I'd be interested in seeing the snowy woodlands to the north of Mirkwood - as is depicted in LOTRO's Rhovanion map. Earlier on this thread someone brought up how that region is a big "ring" with an empty center and SSG is well aware of that.

This is a screenshot from a screenshot. I took it from Druidfire's recap of devcom 2022, which you can see on her youtube channel. Apparently the devs showed how the worldmap has evolved over time. The "Rhovanion ring" is obviously there, and it certainly prevents that part of the world from being entirely cohesive. I can imagine connecting all those different landscapes is not an easy task, as well as not making it too similar to the Balewood in Wildermore, but it would be great to see it someday. Funnily enough, this screenshot also shows how "necessary" the Eriador zone I just talked about is.

[TesalionLortus]

As for Rhovanion, I'd be interested in seeing the snowy woodlands to the north of Mirkwood - as is depicted in LOTRO's Rhovanion map. Earlier on this thread someone brought up how that region is a big "ring" with an empty center and SSG is well aware of that.

The "Rhovanion ring" is obviously there, and it certainly prevents that part of the world from being entirely cohesive. I can imagine connecting all those different landscapes is not an easy task, as well as not making it too similar to the Balewood in Wildermore, but it would be great to see it someday.

The snowy terrain of Mirkwood on Rhovanion map is a little misleading, I would say. I wish we had better world map that accurately illustrates the proportions of zones and the terrain features as they are in game, everything that we had so far was... very skewed. Just look at the result: all the texts for zones around Mirkwood are huddled, whereas some parts of the map make it appear as if something was further than it really is in the game world. Whereas, we're at the point where accuracy is needed so new players aren't confused by these maps and can fully grasp the geographical extent of things.

Is this so hard to take a terrain map screenshot of entire world and put it as reference layer if the artist is working on a new map? So the artistic representation, proportions, where rivers and mountains are match EXACTLY - more or less - how the game world is? Granted, the world wasn't as fully realized some time back, but now it is. So maybe they can do that in the future. (and really -> scrollable stiched "new style" maps for the ENTIRETY of Eriador, Rhovanion etc on one map).



Take a look at the interconnected map I have that I put together in PS. The missing chunk of Mirkwood forest is already - mostly - a complete, fully realized terrain, perhaps a bit raw and underdeveloped at non-traversable parts.






***Northern part of Torech Emel is just inaccessible slopes and there are some slopes around the lake and up the waterfall too. Some of these don't need to be accessible to begin with if they are slopes and hard terrain, so it could be more like a bit "mountainous narrow pathways" version of Mirkwood.

Either way, not sure if it's good enough for Balewood treatment, and then again, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think Balewood is only snowy to begin with because of all the crazy stuff with Nurzum's power. So maybe just a little bit of snowy touch adjacent to the mountains of Southern Ered Mithrin, but not too much.

But the terrain is fully filled already. All they have to do is add a bit of touch, decide on the traversable parts and pathways, bring down some of the mountains on the Western side to connect with Wells of Langflood (where it makes sense geographically), include the connection to Thornholt up and around that river that flows into Oinsbridge, fill it with angry Taurogrim warriors and wildlife, maybe some hard terrain rocky pathways can lead into the "fishbowl road" to Ered Mithrin that we have on the right (or maybe not, not exactly sure what's the height difference between the two).

Sounds like what they like to call "Project Koala." No quest pack, no zone with content for progression, just connecting that part to the larger world and maybe add a few more pathways that would make Mirkwood more interconnected from all sides. Make it super hard through, so any adventurer who is brave enough to enter from another point that doesn't have the elven road... often gets lost and frustrated, that would be fitting! I wish they had time to do that when they were developing Wells of Langflood but well... apparently they didn't. Time, time, time...

[Hierona]

What areas is everyone else most interested in seeing?

Think I will be mostly looking forward to Nurn and Rhûn, but Forodwaith would also be really cool. Hoped they would go there after Gundabad to track down Gorgar, but yeah, story went a different way. I think they are heading to Rhûn next, east of the iron hills to Dorwinion. Umbar seems at it will be to quick after the coronation of Aragorn.

[Phantion]

Think I will be mostly looking forward to Nurn and Rhûn, but Forodwaith would also be really cool. Hoped they would go there after Gundabad to track down Gorgar, but yeah, story went a different way. I think they are heading to Rhûn next, east of the iron hills to Dorwinion. Umbar seems at it will be to quick after the coronation of Aragorn.

Much agreed!

Perhaps some SPOILERS below for those who didn't do Mordor, Strongholds, or Gundabad:





Yeah. It's that Loknashra character who I think leaves Forodwaith as........ still a possibility; she seemed to describe something involving the origins of Orcs going on in the farther north --- meaning north of Car Bronach.

I do want to learn more about Rhûn's devastation....... etc.

I'm just frankly hoping for more mega-zones. What makes "Before the Shadow" so exciting, at least to me, is that it's considered a "mini-expansion" content-wise that's still going to drop this....... humongous chunk of landscape. It does give me hope for us to see more zones of that scale again; Rhûn would certainly warrant it.

---
To the thread in general:


I have a couple of hopes for Rhûn:

1- I'd like the inland sea not to be "under-scaled" too much. I don't want to be able to see the other side of the Sea of Rhûn or even where it starts to curve in a different direction on highest graphical settings.

2- I'd like it completely "swimmable." Like: Do shame to the original "Ever-Swim." Make it possible to swim across it, I'm serious. Crazy idea? Sure. But it would be hilarious to be able to do that. Of course, there should be "dock-masters" as well to pass between the various port cities.

3- The surrounding landscape should likewise be very built-up. The "sea" portion probably doesn't need to be much bigger than the ocean water they made for West Gondor when it launched, just drawn together in a rounder shape.

4- I'd really want to see various kinds of factions. There's a lot they can work to imagine. Where did the Dale-Men exactly hail from before they settled Dale? Well, Tolkien never tells us. There are those Avari Elves out there, and I'd like to hope they had a main base in Dorwinion somewhere, even if hidden from, say, the Chayasir who were forced to leave. There is the mystery of precisely which mountain range Drasa's Folk / Stout-Axes hailed from and how Sauron enslaved them. There's just so much out there, many possibilities. There's that huge forest in northeastern Rhûn that is marked clearly on Tolkien's map, though we know precious little about it.

---

Also, I'd think there'd be some very large cities, and probably a capital, perhaps on the southern shores closer to Mordor; Sauron may have set up one of the Gurzyul to command such a place, perhaps even one of the Nine - the Bane of Rhûn? (*Since Khamul went to Dol Guldor, I mean? ). A Dwarven area....... probably would be the Mountains of Rhûn on the southwestern shores of the inland sea.

---

On the other hand, yes, there's this mysterious devastation the zone refers to. I do hope it's not completely a physical one; I wouldn't really want to see a Rhûn that's a clone of Mordor that got blasted from some catastrophe. We have Gorgoroth for that.... and Nurn to follow at some point. Or at least- I'd hope it would have it's hidden pockets of life, some untouched places that could still give us a glimpse of a "pre-devastation" Rhûn- or whatever that would look like.

Cheers!

[seekingerin]

But otherwise... let's stop it! Lotro will last for another 15 and then 20+ years! I refuse to believe otherwise!

Oh, I don't think the game is going anywhere any time soon, and I hope it doesn't. I just thought it might be an interesting thought experiment and a way to frame a discussion about what areas of the game we're most interested in seeing.

This is a screenshot from a screenshot. I took it from Druidfire's recap of devcom 2022, which you can see on her youtube channel. Apparently the devs showed how the worldmap has evolved over time. The "Rhovanion ring" is obviously there, and it certainly prevents that part of the world from being entirely cohesive. I can imagine connecting all those different landscapes is not an easy task, as well as not making it too similar to the Balewood in Wildermore, but it would be great to see it someday. Funnily enough, this screenshot also shows how "necessary" the Eriador zone I just talked about is.

It's interesting to note some of the areas the devs have not marked as developed on this map. There's the far north of Mirkwood, as you mention; the bit of Mirkwood west of Dol Guldur; portions in and around the Misty Mountains to the north and South of Moria; the area between Angmar and Gundabad; the Weather Marches/Goblins of Mount Gram area; even the stretch of the White Mountains east of the Paths of the Dead is unmarked. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to see all these areas developed, but it does mean SSG knows and acknowledges them as undeveloped and may consider them in play for future development. It would have been easy for them say, nah, we've done Southern Mirkwood, or we've done Northern Mirkwood, or we've developed all the way up to the Misty and White Mountains, so we can fill in all the mountains and the northern and southern ends of the forest. We've done enough. But they haven't done that, which had to have been a deliberate choice. They've identified and acknowledged the gaps.

Yeah. It's that Loknashra character who I think leaves Forodwaith as........ still a possibility; she seemed to describe something involving the origins of Orcs going on in the farther north --- meaning north of Car Bronach.

A year ago, I would have thought it was unlikely that we would ever make it to Forodwaith, since it's such a barren land; but Loknashra's storyline is unfinished, and we've gotten some hints that there are things afoot with the hobgoblins in the north. I think a Forodwaith is very much in the realm of possibilities.

I'm just frankly hoping for more mega-zones. What makes "Before the Shadow" so exciting, at least to me, is that it's considered a "mini-expansion" content-wise that's still going to drop this....... humongous chunk of landscape. It does give me hope for us to see more zones of that scale again; Rhûn would certainly warrant it.

I'm really hoping that CardoSwan and the technologies they've been leveraging and the work Scenario has been doing in recent years mean that we might get larger zones in the future. Rhun, as you say, warrants it; so potentially do Harad, Khand, Nurn, Forodwaith, and southern Eriador. There are many places in Middle Earth that would probably have been too large, too lightly populated, or too far away to develop properly a few years ago. But I think the technology and techniques that made CardoSwan possible could also make a lot of other places possible and raise the likelihood that we may actually get to see all the far-flung corners of Middle Earth someday.