Delving System Level 140 Only?

[istvana]

I have seen heated discussions on this three days in a row on world chat. Some people say because it gives raid gear it has to be level cap only, which makes no sense because there are lower level raids. Some people quote Orion as having said level 140 only - which is more persuasive because one would think Orion would know.

On the other hand - the new zones are low level, and nothing in the marketplace description says that delving is only available at level cap. Nothing in the one page summary that Cord posted a link to said it was for level cap only. Players with low level characters, either on "live" or on the legendary servers which will not hit level cap for a long time, are paying money for the expansion assuming that they will be able to use the much touted delving system.

Can we get a clarification, please? If the system is for level cap only, the advertising should say so. If the piece of it that gives raid-quality gear is for level cap only, the advertising should say so.

Obviously if nothing in the delving system is limited to level cap the advertising is accurate now.

[Laurelinarien]

It is a current level cap system, that looks into the future (as in: they promise to keep it updated as new raids come out but I haven't seen any official source say they'd be retroactively adjusted for legendary servers or non-cap raids).

I can't offer much proof without going back & replaying Orion/Cord's latest streams, but here for example there's a shot of what Cord showed - notice the Delving items required to "unleash the Malice" inside the upcoming Missions are level 140. And Cord was using a level cap character to show how to interact with the Delving Stone in the new missions.



I also recall Cord mentioning this is an alternative path to gearing for those who don't want to raid, and for raiders to chase 1 or 2 BiS items. So yea, I do think it's a level cap activity.

[DoRonRon]

The screenshot of a bank of different gems would point toward more granularity that just level cap. Possibly to match LI "ranges"?

However, saying it's restricted to cap or even 46+ would deter the 20+ crowd. Predicable as ever.

[Yuffie67]

item level: is not same as Level require. So item lv140 is really low. (since that goes into 490's or something now?


anyway...
No One Seems To Know.

Anything...


One stream recap said a few things, another stream cap seem'd back up other. But clarified it.. or just countered it.

Then official notes came out, canceling out what was said in streams recaps.

For awhile talk was, Delving would be School and Library. Being soloable do to new system, allowing solo players a place to get gear. And they would add more of older instances.
Thats what I got out of alot of talks.

Reading official notes kinda cancels that out.. (Havnt been in mood to watch streams lately..so been catching up on recaps..)


I was really looking forward to getting gear for my end game characters...(I solo) but it sound like this delving system isn't for that... more of challenge system. Which means you need good gear to begin with... to get better gear?

[WeirdJedi]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1599046598

64 minutes in, Cordovan mentions Orion: "restricted to level 140 characters only"

[Laurelinarien]

item level: is not same as Level require. So item lv140 is really low. (since that goes into 490's or something now?

I get why it seems confusing but it's just not the way you're understanding it. The items in question are like quest items. Not gear or weapons. So despite the label, no, it didn't occur to me that they wouldn't be for level cap missions. Like I said, Cord showed said missions at 140.

I was really looking forward to getting gear for my end game characters...(I solo) but it sound like this delving system isn't for that... more of challenge system. Which means you need good gear to begin with... to get better gear?

There are 10 levels of difficulty. You'll receive the barter currency (writs) in any of those levels. And Orion said tier 1 difficulty is no different from the way missions already are. If you can't successfully run tier 10, and I asked Orion about this during the stream, the gear rewards won't be restricted by a tier deed, it'll just take you a little longer to be able to barter for them.

[istvana]

While all of us may follow the forums and listen to the streams - the official sales material that people use to decide whether to spend money are what really matter. Meaning the descriptions in the Marketplace and the one page summary of the system on LOTRO.com.

These say that the new zones are for low levels. They say that this new system goes with the missions that are being introduced with the low level zones. Unless I totally misread them - they do *not* say that the system can only be used by level 140 characters. They do not say that raid level gear can only be gotten by level 140 characters.

It boggles the mind to think that a low level expansion sold in part by touting a new mission-based system that provides better gear would not mention that this simply isn't true until the low level characters in the new zones gained another 110 levels.

Thus the request for clarification and for correction of the sales material if in fact this actually is how it will work.

[Strider5548]

I don't understand why this system is only for level 140. Why can't the gear be scaling? Festival instances already scale for both the instance and gear rewards, and Thrang is better balanced than any other content on Treebeard. Can't we apply the same sort of scaling that we currently use in something like Thrang to make the Delving system available for legendary servers and low level players on live?

[SSG_Orion]

As Delvings are meant to provide an alternate form of advancement at end game, they will be restricted to max level.

Missions inside of the Before the Shadow Expansion are available to all players 20+ but to access the delvings you will need to be max level.

Additionally, some of these are still in a bit of flux as we finalize the work and get thre remainder of the missions lined up and built up.

I have a letter to the players and will be working on Developer Diary for the Delving System prior to the launch of Before the Shadow provided all goes well.

[DoRonRon]

Cheers

Is it "Or Ryan" or "Ori On" and is it pronounced in the US the same as you would Orion's Belt? Or just the usual break a syllable into two for no apparent reason? I have the same deal with LOW TRO and LOT ROW, seems the former is a more depressing option.

We'll have to see if Marketing adjusts it's marketing as a result.

The block of "Zircons" on the web page: Do we have to use terms already in game? ala Relics/Runes and Shards and Titles.

[istvana]

Orion - thank you for the clarification.

I had no issues with how the system was designed, or how it was described in streams or on the forum. As I think was quite clear my concern was that the marketing material was, at best, less detailed and at worst in the context of a mini-expansion focused on low level zones outright misleading. Your marketing people may want to consider whether it is ideal to wait until release and see if purchasers are surprised and unhappy or whether to take more proactive steps in advance.

[Strider5548]

As Delvings are meant to provide an alternate form of advancement at end game, they will be restricted to max level.

Thanks for the quick response. Just a small point of feedback, it did feel like this new system was advertised as a way to enjoy more challenging missions and potentially instances down the line, along with rewards that are commensurate with the challenge. I think this is something non level cap players are looking for as well. 'End game' can mean 140 for an Ark player, it can mean 65 for a Treebeard player, or even 50 for a live server player in a level locked group.

[Khazvere]

an alternative path to gearing for those who don't want to raid

There used to be a system called crafting.

[gildhur]

There used to be a system called crafting.

[Laurelinarien]

There used to be a system called crafting.

This is true :')

[b414213562]

Delvings ... will be restricted to max level.

This sounds like they will also be available on the legendary servers to any players who are at server cap. Is that correct?

If yes, awesome!
If not, since Legendary Servers do not have a history of continuing at max level, what is the motivation behind withholding this awesome-sounding system from the legendary server players?

[WeirdJedi]

This sounds like they will also be available on the legendary servers to any players who are at server cap. Is that correct?

If yes, awesome!
If not, since Legendary Servers do not have a history of continuing at max level, what is the motivation behind withholding this awesome-sounding system from the legendary server players?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1586251192

1:43:10 Won't be immediately available on legendary servers.

It takes a lot of work to balance 10 different versions of an instance. You need to design each challenge, make sure they are passable, and prevent any exploitation. You need to balance out the right number of writs for the difficulty and the amount of gold coins it costs to transform or renew the gems. If they considered the earlier levels, they'd have to calculate how people stockpiled writs. The biggest obstacle I can see is making brand new gear that is equivalent to the current raid set available for every level bracket without going over it. You will have to do this for every class. This part alone would be rather difficult to figure out since the early raids didn't typically have more than one or two tiers. They want to branch the system to other avenues like 3mans, 6mans, and skirmishes. Sounds like they have their hands full with building the system already just for level 140.

[b414213562]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1586251192

1:43:10 Won't be immediately available on legendary servers.

It takes a lot of work to balance 10 different versions of an instance. You need to design each challenge, make sure they are passable, and prevent any exploitation. You need to balance out the right number of writs for the difficulty and the amount of gold coins it costs to transform or renew the gems. If they considered the earlier levels, they'd have to calculate how people stockpiled writs. The biggest obstacle I can see is making brand new gear that is equivalent to the current raid set available for every level bracket without going over it. You will have to do this for every class. This part alone would be rather difficult to figure out since the early raids didn't typically have more than one or two tiers. They want to branch the system to other avenues like 3mans, 6mans, and skirmishes. Sounds like they have their hands full with building the system already just for level 140.

A very thorough answer to why they wouldn't offer gear rewards below max level, but the question was about the delving system.
Assuming you replace gear / writs with the normal bounties for running it below max level, I'm still wondering what the motivation is for not bringing the delving difficulty system to legendary servers.

[egarthur]

As Delvings are meant to provide an alternate form of advancement at end game, they will be restricted to max level.

Missions inside of the Before the Shadow Expansion are available to all players 20+ but to access the delvings you will need to be max level.

Additionally, some of these are still in a bit of flux as we finalize the work and get thre remainder of the missions lined up and built up.

I have a letter to the players and will be working on Developer Diary for the Delving System prior to the launch of Before the Shadow provided all goes well.

So, as a matter of terminology, "max level" means "max level for the game", whereas "level cap" means "the maximum level for your particular server", right? Because the Legendary Server concept was originally presented as a way to experience different level caps, including group content. But, since they've been launched, many of the enhancements that have been focused on "endgame" have left out legendary servers (e.g. tracery crafting, and now Delving). So, again, "max level" versus "level cap". I think many folks who created characters on legendary servers weren't expecting that fine distinction to be so rigidly applied...

P.S. https://www.lotro.com/legendary doesn't appear to work any more (redirects to the store page). But I was able to see the original legendary-server announcement in the Wayback Machine.

[Strider5548]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1586251192

1:43:10 Won't be immediately available on legendary servers.

It takes a lot of work to balance 10 different versions of an instance.

I am curious if this is actually the case. Again, I point to the Thrang festival instance as an example. This instance on Treebeard is the only 6 man content that exists that most players couldn't just steamroll through and it provided a well scaled BiS item. I do not believe any effort was put on SSG's part to make Thrang a 'balanced' instance for non "level cap/max level" players, but by simply following their scaling calculator for mob difficulty and loot stats they ended up providing the only content Treebeard players actually logged on for in large #'s this entire expansion.

It's amazing and saddening to me that a festival instance was able to bring so many people online on the legendary servers and you would see calls in LFF for groups every night. This is why a lot of us were excited for the Delving system, because it sounds like two of the three biggest issues players complain about with legendary servers (itemization/having non-faceroll content) would be addressed by it. Personally I think challenging non-raid content has a better place throughout the leveling experience rather than the level 140 experience.

[WeirdJedi]

This is why a lot of us were excited for the Delving system, because it sounds like two of the three biggest issues players complain about with legendary servers (itemization/having non-faceroll content) would be addressed by it. Personally I think challenging non-raid content has a better place throughout the leveling experience rather than the level 140 experience.

I keep looking at how far the mission system has gone. It is perhaps one of the primary sources to help people level up, gain legendary experience for the Reward Track, earn motes/embers, gain guild tokens, earn shards, build virtue experience, get a tracery reclamation scroll, obtain cosmetics from the barterers, and a bunch of other things I didn't list. When it first introduced, it didn't have any of those things. The expansion was released on October 20, 2020. Housing decorations weren't added in until December 10th. The weeklies weren't added until Wildwood's release March 17th, 2021. Then they tried tying the Allegiance system to it with Gundabad. I don't think they would have continued adding missions in unless they saw some success in the data.

I think I agree that there would be several problems that would be resolved with a scaling delving system. If you are able to get recipes to craft traceries, earn better gear that everyone seems to want when they are having trouble finding groups for instances (because I have seen people want the best gear possible immediately upon reaching a new level), and challenges added for soloers as well as levelers, there would be a lot of happy people. To some degree, I would like to see them implement the system without any tangible rewards - maybe just add another token or two for the barterer - and get some feedback on how classes perform or whether players engage. I think what they might be doing is trying to focus on balancing the classes, seeing how implementing such a system in various types of instances would work, and whether people would really latch onto it using level 140 as some sort of benchmark. The way they keep mentioning that it will be released after a raid comes out, when the next raid won't be out until after Update 35, leads me to believe that they plan to keep using it when the cap goes up to level 150.

[Neinda]

Other things besides missions used to be successful in the game too. If all content is converting to missions where is the "MM" in "MMO" or is it massive missions online? I wish SSG would consider updating the old instances and skirmishes which really do encourage group play and are true group content. To me, missions are boring. It is the same instance over and over with a different background which I get to do all by myself over and over. There needs to be some balance between solo and group content. On the solo side, missions are pushed. On the group side only a select few are able to successfully run anything over T1/T2 and missions drop better gear than the T1/T2 instances. Skirmishes drop nothing useful these days. I wish SSG would make group content a priority again some day.

[DoRonRon]

So, as a matter of terminology, "max level" means "max level for the game", whereas "level cap" means "the maximum level for your particular server", right? Because the Legendary Server concept was originally presented as a way to experience different level caps, including group content. But, since they've been launched, many of the enhancements that have been focused on "endgame" have left out legendary servers (e.g. tracery crafting, and now Delving). So, again, "max level" versus "level cap". I think many folks who created characters on legendary servers weren't expecting that fine distinction to be so rigidly applied...

P.S. https://www.lotro.com/legendary doesn't appear to work any more (redirects to the store page). But I was able to see the original legendary-server announcement in the Wayback Machine.

LOTRO MARKET: "Higher level characters can increase the difficulty of new missions included in the Before the Shadow expansion to earn additional difficulty tiers and rewards." Would someone who's progressed 75% of the way to max consider themselves as high level, my 106? 90% there at 126? Or 99% at 138? No sir.

And those at max level on the LSs might consider max is higher level.

But it's the weekend, can't expect a change in the copy at a time more players are likely to be buying in. Never changed their rhetoric over all of us stuck in load screens with any increase of storage capacity either.

[MatchesMalone88]

I would like for the delving system to be useful for altoholics like myself.

For instance, suppose I have a well geared champ. Can the champ run higher level delvings so a less well geared alt can get better gear?

memories of hytbold here which was very useful to gear all my alts back then...

[DoRonRon]

Market:
"New Delving System
Test your skills with the new delving system! Higher level characters can increase the difficulty of new missions included in the Before the Shadow expansion to earn additional difficulty tiers and rewards."
Another week goes by...