Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Feral_Yoda]

Well, I think there are many people that would disagree.

As i said before... i know i'm in the minority. Just expressing my opinion same as everyone else here.

There are actually people who like mounted combat and have fun doing something different though. Your statement is highly subjective - to me, mounted combat was fun. Anyway, didn't mean combat. Just as you can run on land to do NPCs chores, gather herbs, meet with NPCs and search for clues or patrol points, same can be done on waters and in hidden coves if there are boats (and sounds to me like something that would fit the Corsair land). Or, imagine a hunt for a treasure according to some map and clues, that lead you toward some island or forgotten, hidden shore. It's more immersive and engaging when you actually control your search and movement, not... take that boat on that shore that teleports you to who-knows-where and you miss all the potential sights along the way from point A to B. And doing it the Everswim way who's got the patience anymore in a zone/zones where main landscape feature is its charming bay, it's 2023 in gaming

But yeah... its all subjective opinion. Mine, yours, evreyones but the devs. So what? Also while the year might be 2023 we're playing a game almost 20 years old, not that was released yesterday...

My point with the mounted combat is, it didn't work for all classes. On Guardian i found it nigh unplayable. I was far more effective off the horse than on it. With hunter and other classes, it was different, still a chore but workable.
For combat purposes, boats would need to work for all classes, not just the offensive/ranged ones.

And without combat, its just cosmetic, and a possible faster swim speed. And while that is still some use... i doubt its of significant use to take focus from elsewhere on the game to add in.

As for exploration purposes and treasure hunts... on tiny islands or what not way off the coast... such things don't need to be way off the coast or places that would require boats. You can do that on land or close enough to land to swim, just like in Forochel Evendim, Breeland and Gondor.

[TesalionLortus]

You can do that on land or close enough to land to swim, just like in Forochel Evendim, Breeland and Gondor.

Old game that survived to 2023 and has ambitions (as they keep telling us for this year) gotta actually keep up though. Otherwise it'll just inevitably dwindle and start to appear less fun/less immersive (even despite the worldbuilding and design). Sure, you might tell me it's good enough for you and nothing wrong with that, but I do feel like the overall sizes of such things conveyed in Evendim, Breeland, Gondor... do feel very small. But they were never really outright exotic southern locales with a corsair city and corsair vessels in the bay, so they needn't exactly need to be on that front and were great enough on others. Also, up to this point, aside from that peculiar old Gondor journey where the break at the Cape made things look bigger than they actually are, the game stayed far away from any massive coastline or regions where waters are relevant for larger trade and some storied activities. But that's gonna change with all these juicy bits of Middle-earth left. For utility, you also gotta consider the very fact boats can simply make them some cash through cosmetic sales, slots etc and given how not many of us actually use war-steeds to actively move through the world (for obvious reasons) if they avoid annoying navigation I can't imagine anyone refusing a boat movement and sticking to manual swim across larger distances - which means obtaining boat cosmetics and slots can be more desirable than for warsteeds, if people actually find boats practical to use and there is some content thatmakes use of them and makes them relevant in this way (plus maybe they can open up some bigger sea space, like that entire Bay of Belfalas from Anfalas to map's borders, and who knows what players may do with that for player run events perhaps?)

My point with the mounted combat is, it didn't work for all classes. On Guardian i found it nigh unplayable. I was far more effective off the horse than on it. With hunter and other classes, it was different, still a chore but workable.
For combat purposes, boats would need to work for all classes, not just the offensive/ranged ones.

Balance and making it work for everyone is certainly an ideal approach here, and they certainly learnt some things from mounted. But annoying or not, regardless of a class, the wonder of mounted was actually being able to stroll through these plains and chase the roaming enemies across the map. It felt natural (well, minus some movement navigation ; P) and how it would feel to chase someone on a horse during dynamic combat vs just dealing with them as if they weren't mounted at all and kindly stood in place.

[k40rne]

Balance and making it work for everyone is certainly an ideal approach here, and they certainly learnt some things from mounted. But annoying or not, regardless of a class, the wonder of mounted was actually being able to stroll through these plains and chase the roaming enemies across the map. It felt natural (well, minus some movement navigation ; P) and how it would feel to chase someone on a horse during dynamic combat vs just dealing with them as if they weren't mounted at all and kindly stood in place.

These constant attacks on mounted navigation are a bit irritating, (not by you in particular, but from some of the others). I control my mounted steed with ease, it takes practice & skill, something this game used to require; like back when navigating the run from Gabilshathur to Gath Forthnir without dying as a light armour user was no easy task or taking on Ivar when he sucked all your power from you in Garth Agarwen without having a Loremaster in the party (used to be the hardest boss in the game in one of his incarnations). So many just want easy mode & complain because it takes effort to master, such as war-steed manoeuvring. The main complaint on the war-steed should be some areas where the lag bounces you around and you get stuck in something & have to dismount, that is definitely cumbersome & should continually be worked on, but those areas are few & far between. Taur Druardain is probably the worst offender that comes to mind (near the Rohirrim camps when crossing the stream on the main Northerly road; that section is very irritating, i'll admit). I can ride my warhorse from every corner of Minas Tirith without much trouble even, with maybe 2 key exceptions around the tunnels. This includes riding up to the top level pier without the need for dismounting & travelling much faster than everyone else. It's actually quite fun to race through it.
I used to do the same in Thror's Coomb, Enedwaith before they turned that extremely narrow bridge across the ravine into a large log bridge, now that was narrow & easy to fall off, but it was still a sad day when they changed it. The hidden deed, I guess, necessitated it though.

So I don't see War-steed 2.0 should be much of a problem for boats if that's what they intend: certainly not for large lakes, inland seas & the open ocean; now, a few of those rivers might be difficult unless they intend to widen them.

[TesalionLortus]

because it takes effort to master, such as war-steed manoeuvring. The main complaint on the war-steed should be some areas where the lag bounces you around and you get stuck in something & have to dismount, that is definitely cumbersome & should continually be worked on, but those areas are few & far between. Taur Druardain is probably the worst offender that comes to mind (near the Rohirrim camps when crossing the stream on the main Northerly road; that section is very irritating, i'll admit). I can ride my warhorse from every corner of Minas Tirith without much trouble even, with maybe 2 key exceptions around the tunnels. This includes riding up to the top level pier without the need for dismounting & travelling much faster than everyone else. It's actually quite fun to race through it.

So I don't see War-steed 2.0 should be much of a problem for boats if that's what they intend: certainly not for large lakes, inland seas & the open ocean; now, a few of those rivers might be difficult unless they intend to widen them.

You're not wrong, it can be mastered and I did use it more effectively in the past too. Present day I've gotten lazier though and prefer to use a regular horse for its ease (though war-steed animation is definitely somewhat more cool for epicness factor). Mainly due the main factor that I have everything maxed as much as I can for graphics and AA, so I'm loosing some FPS and many of the newer densely populated areas get a lot of stutters with war-steed. It has its engine problem, there is something about it that does have this effect on performance under the hood. Would be cool if they could figure it out someday. As for mastering war-steed it was clearly some kind of challenge in the past, as you said, one that could be enjoyed. It was interesting mechanic to have it tied to trait points and war-steed types. But compared with some other games the maneuverability is also not exactly as appealing and may be a bit annoying for taking sudden turns, and resulting in these weird behavior and bumping into walls (vs in other games the horse tends to do an automatic slow down, roar, doesn't just bump into things and it's much more seamless and appealing).

[Feral_Yoda]

These constant attacks on mounted navigation are a bit irritating, (not by you in particular, but from some of the others). I control my mounted steed with ease, it takes practice & skill, something this game used to require; like back when navigating the run from Gabilshathur to Gath Forthnir without dying as a light armour user was no easy task or taking on Ivar when he sucked all your power from you in Garth Agarwen without having a Loremaster in the party (used to be the hardest boss in the game in one of his incarnations). So many just want easy mode & complain because it takes effort to master, such as war-steed manoeuvring. The main complaint on the war-steed should be some areas where the lag bounces you around and you get stuck in something & have to dismount, that is definitely cumbersome & should continually be worked on, but those areas are few & far between. Taur Druardain is probably the worst offender that comes to mind (near the Rohirrim camp on the main Northern road; that section is very irritating). I can ride my warhorse from every corner of Minas Tirith without much trouble, maybe 2 key spots that are problematic in the tunnels.

So I don't see War-steed 2.0 should be much of a problem for boats if that's what they intend: certainly not for large lakes, inland seas & the open ocean; now, a few of those rivers might be difficult unless they intend to widen them.

I never said i had a problem navigating with my heavy warhorse... I still do ride it all the time if i'm looking for speed. Though i do often use the regular horse/goat/elk/pigs when i don't care about speed. Navigating wasn't the problem for me, and thats me on a heavy.

My main complaint was that for the Guardian (which did Rohan as it was released), it was nigh useless in combat unless i wanted to Charge headfirst into combat and fling the enemies all over the place. Then get off the thing and let the enemies charge at me, trap them with a force attack/slow and take them down myself in redline with bleeds or let my allies shoot it to death. I learned all the warhorse skills, could even follow along the enemies, and slowly kill them while on it, but it was all close range combat skills, and because of that, I was far more effective and faster off the horse than on. Especially while playing solo or duo and on level at the time of release. Granted i haven't gone back through Rohan in the same manner since, but it was just dumb on a Guard.

With boats, beyond it being in my view silly and unneeded, my concern also lies with combat potential; if they go that route that it will once again be completely ineffective for classes like my favored one.

[TesalionLortus]

if they go that route that it will once again be completely ineffective for classes like my favored one.

If they did that (I think doubtful) then they should probably detach combat from classes, for the most part, and make it its own thing. So, doesn't matter whether you Hunter or Guard, you do get to shoot from some ballistae on your boat or ram (lol, on a boat) into your enemies. Maybe just some slight additional skills/tastes, depending on classes, but not releasing arrow upon arrow for hunters (and other ranged ones) and basically allowing them to refuse to engage with the new mechanic, which in turn makes everyone else look inefficient.

[Feral_Yoda]

If they did that (I think doubtful) then they should probably detach combat from classes, for the most part, and make it its own thing. So, doesn't matter whether you Hunter or Guard, you do get to shoot from some ballistae on your boat or ram (lol, on a boat) into your enemies. Maybe just some slight additional skills/tastes, depending on classes, but not releasing arrow upon arrow for hunters (and other ranged ones) and basically allowing them to refuse to engage with the new mechanic, which in turn makes everyone else look inefficient.

And see, I can't imagine them giving us a boat big enough to carry and operate a ballista or catapult! No to triremes... no to catamarans... no to even the little merchant vessels we see on the brandywine.

The only way i can imagine them giving us a boat would be a small kayak/canoe/rowboat type deal. Anything larger just makes it even more of a silly idea.

[TesalionLortus]

And see, I can't imagine them giving us a boat big enough to carry and operate a ballista or catapult! No to triremes... no to catamarans... no to even the little merchant vessels we see on the brandywine.

The only way i can imagine them giving us a boat would be a small kayak/canoe/rowboat type deal. Anything larger just makes it even more of a silly idea.

Meant something more like a "mini-ballista" smaller than the ones available for housing. Imagine the funny picture of rowing a small boat but there is also that ballista attached in front of you and you stop rowing to move it around and shoot. :P But then, other than some little Corsair vessels of one smaller type, probably just 6 men required to assail the types of Corsair ships we've seen (the Mumakil treatment). And all other mobs would be more like some wildlife in water or something, so really not much you could potentially do here. Though then again, they also have ghost types, so maybe a warband of sunken ghost sailors except it's solo and they're moving around a bit, and the trick is to aim well by easily typing a button on your keyboard, not exactly one of the many skills on your bar. Though people hated when something was different in Epic Battles sooooo But Epic Battles was more of a strategy/management game (with some siege weapon action but that was done in a bit annoying/demanding cumbersome way). Maybe people would like an action driven aim-and-shoot mini game more... and you can upgrade your ammunition and such, and make better bolts through crafting (hey, Orion, let's tie this to crafting revamp too ;P)

[k40rne]

My main complaint was that for the Guardian (which did Rohan as it was released), it was nigh useless in combat unless i wanted to Charge headfirst into combat and fling the enemies all over the place. Then get off the thing and let the enemies charge at me, trap them with a force attack/slow and take them down myself in redline with bleeds or let my allies shoot it to death. I learned all the warhorse skills, could even follow along the enemies, and slowly kill them while on it, but it was all close range combat skills, and because of that, I was far more effective and faster off the horse than on. Especially while playing solo or duo and on level at the time of release. Granted i haven't gone back through Rohan in the same manner since, but it was just dumb on a Guard.

With boats, beyond it being in my view silly and unneeded, my concern also lies with combat potential; if they go that route that it will once again be completely ineffective for classes like my favored one.

I've done every single war steed class in Rohan (both West, East & Wildermore) except Warden, which I just skipped after learning how to play it & levelled him using mostly tasks and partner running missions for him when got bored. Oh and also not brawler. Didn't level that one yet as had a lot of real world issues lately. The only one I had issues with was the burglar because those skills are such low range & you have to be on top of the mob practicaly to hit it with those destructive back attacks. Guardian wasn't too bad, but if you're doing raid warband content, I understand what you mean because traditional tanking on a horse isn't effective. Mainly need to kite.

Boats aren't silly but it depends how big these boats get & what it entails; we should try to remain open-minded here. I mean as TesalionLortus mentioned, we'd surely all love an Assassin's Creed: Odyssey approach, but I'm not sure the game could handle anywhere near that sophistication, but I guess time will tell.

Also there's no need to piss on other's parades though, personally I don't like all the fluff like hobbies & think all the new housing takes up valuable resources, but I don't mention it because others enjoy it; it does also add to the depth of the world at large too, so that should be taken into account, same principle applies with the boat situation. And I damn sure didn't want them changing the legendary system--with I think 4 iterations. I had huge amounts of stuff I had collected on my 11 mains for years that added variety & depth to the game: relics, runes & all manner of things that just became useless overnight. You can only trade in for basic stuff & you're capped, which really is annoying, but I let it go.

Oh, the same goes for a craft 'revamp'. Separating it now after all these years seems a bit pointless & takes a bit of charm from the game, the best thing they could do is separate professions from gathering, that would be revolutionary & useful.

As for the class boat combat, they're more than likely to do a single generic version for all classes or a ranged/melee standard type I'd anticipate. I'm sure they are well aware of all the gripes about class in non standard type combat & will stay well enough away from that situation; assuming they decide to add combat at all; which was discounted earlier, but I'm still hopeful they may have changed their minds about.

[k40rne]

And see, I can't imagine them giving us a boat big enough to carry and operate a ballista or catapult! No to triremes... no to catamarans... no to even the little merchant vessels we see on the brandywine.

The only way i can imagine them giving us a boat would be a small kayak/canoe/rowboat type deal. Anything larger just makes it even more of a silly idea.

What about Galleons?

[k40rne]

Meant something more like a "mini-ballista" smaller than the ones available for housing. Imagine the funny picture of rowing a small boat but there is also that ballista attached in front of you and you stop rowing to move it around and shoot. :P But then, other than some little Corsair vessels of one smaller type, probably just 6 men required to assail the types of Corsair ships we've seen (the Mumakil treatment). And all other mobs would be more like some wildlife in water or something, so really not much you could potentially do here. Though then again, they also have ghost types, so maybe a warband of sunken ghost sailors except it's solo and they're moving around a bit, and the trick is to aim well by easily typing a button on your keyboard, not exactly one of the many skills on your bar. Though people hated when something was different in Epic Battles sooooo But Epic Battles was more of a strategy/management game (with some siege weapon action but that was done in a bit annoying/demanding cumbersome way). Maybe people would like an action driven aim-and-shoot mini game more... and you can upgrade your ammunition and such, and make better bolts through crafting (hey, Orion, let's tie this to crafting revamp too ;P)

I think you mean an Espingal.

[Feral_Yoda]

I've done every single war steed class in Rohan (both West, East & Wildermore) except Warden, which I just skipped after learning how to play it & levelled him using mostly tasks and partner running missions for him when got bored. Oh and also not brawler. Didn't level that one yet as had a lot of real world issues lately. The only one I had issues with was the burglar because those skills are such low range & you have to be on top of the mob practicaly to hit it with those destructive back attacks. Guardian wasn't too bad, but if you're doing raid warband content, I understand what you mean because traditional tanking on a horse isn't effective. Mainly need to kite.

Boats aren't silly but it depends how big these boats get & what it entails; we should try to remain open-minded here. I mean as TesalionLortus mentioned, we'd surely all love an Assassin's Creed: Odyssey approach, but I'm not sure the game could handle anywhere near that sophistication, but I guess time will tell.

Also there's no need to piss on other's parades though, personally I don't like all the fluff like hobbies & think all the new housing takes up valuable resources, but I don't mention it because others enjoy it; it does also add to the depth of the world at large too, so that should be taken into account, same principle applies with the boat situation. And I damn sure didn't want them changing the legendary system--with I think 4 iterations. I had huge amounts of stuff I had collected on my 11 mains for years that added variety & depth to the game: relics, runes & all manner of things that just became useless overnight. You can only trade in for basic stuff & you're capped, which really is annoying, but I let it go.

Oh, the same goes for a craft 'revamp'. Separating it now after all these years seems a bit pointless & takes a bit of charm from the game, the best thing they could do is separate professions from gathering, that would be revolutionary & useful.

As for the class boat combat, they're more than likely to do a single generic version for all classes or a ranged/melee standard type I'd anticipate. I'm sure they are well aware of all the gripes about class in non standard type combat & will stay well enough away from that situation; assuming they decide to add combat at all; which was discounted earlier, but I 'm hopeful may have changed their minds about.

Your description of the Burg is basically my memory of the Guard way back then, and yes kiting the dumb mobs on my horse so everyone else could just shoot it death basically. Which was stupid boring. Tanking on the ground was basically the same but i had more than 1 effective attack, could slow it, bleed it, and do much more damage. While everyone else did the exact same thing they were doing while i was kiting it.

Having never played an Assassin's creed game, and only vaguely aware of them through friends... i don't really know what their approach to boats was.

To each their own i guess. If they do boats, they do boats, I won't get upset over it nor quit the game over it. Nor am I mad that other people want it. Not trying to piss on anyone's parade or such, just voicing my feelings on it. Its just doesn't seem like something that would work or fit with the current game. Who knows maybe i'll be surprised in the end. I currently just don't see it.

What about Galleons?

I think you know the answer to this question.

Seriously though anything bigger than a single-person craft (rowboat etc) i'd see as only working in an instance, and pretty much only then.

[k40rne]

Your description of the Burg is basically my memory of the Guard way back then, and yes kiting the dumb mobs on my horse so everyone else could just shoot it death basically. Which was stupid boring. Tanking on the ground was basically the same but i had more than 1 effective attack, could slow it, bleed it, and do much more damage. While everyone else did the exact same thing they were doing while i was kiting it.

Having never played an Assassin's creed game, and only vaguely aware of them through friends... i don't really know what their approach to boats was.

To each their own i guess. If they do boats, they do boats, I won't get upset over it nor quit the game over it. Nor am I mad that other people want it. Not trying to piss on anyone's parade or such, just voicing my feelings on it. Its just doesn't seem like something that would work or fit with the current game. Who knows maybe i'll be surprised in the end. I currently just don't see it.

Yes, but I still had fun on the burg, it was just a lot slower & more frustrating; in general how burgs are in normal combat too. Slow, hit extremely hard, usually 2 hit kills for most anything.

Assassins Creed Odyssey should be the protoytpe for any Ship combat. It has great weather effects, fun & challenging combat (until you get maxed out of course), although some can be challenging if you take on a large fleet. It looks great & it's got a bit of depth.

[TesalionLortus]

Just watched the Stroll, some very nice details from Scenario about world design and workflow. Pleasure to listen, thanks for making these!

Some details about potential landscape ideas/features were mentioned (but just ideas, not currently in development):

- more randomization throughout camps, so mob X not always same mob X after they respawn - OH YES!

- randomized height for mobs +-5% - OH DOUBLE YES!

- a rainy cloud that you can run into for some dynamic weather effect, which sounds like lots of work to create - hmm, personally not sure about this, unless can be disabled under settings. I know 30 meters in LOTRO's landscape is actually much further in real world terms but still, in the real world you don't exactly notice that it rains in that other district of the city from distance away unless you're moving very fast in a modern world (or in the sky on a dragon ;P). This change happens naturally and is not some visible barrier of clouds from which it rains next door. Like, I can call a friend and find out it doesn't rain there, but if I try to reach my friend's house I'll always be entirely covered by rainy skies, then less rainy, then only a bit of rain, and finally slowly stops and clear skies. No visible "seperate" cloud layer in the distance that it rains from. Sounds more like cartoon-ish style if that was in the game, so I'm sure it could break immersion and cheapen the feel of regions for some people/make them feel smaller in scale. So perhaps something to take into account

- clouds that can cast shadows upon lands below (old feature of Asheron's Call), though that was mentioned in one of the earlier streams - but the above reminded me of this, not sure how it looked like in Asheron's Call but this also sounds to me like is not exactly a "natural" thing. It's getting darker during rainstorm or heavy clouds because sun is covered up (which already happens during the weather change in the game), but in real life they're not exactly "visible shadows being casted" as if clouds were spaceships. I guess maybe that just looked gamey cool in Asheron? Not sure if would like that in lotro - lotro art style is very classy and even cartoon-like/fairy tale like, yeah, but when it comes to sense of the world on landscape it's actually more of a real believable space for environmental effects and not flashily cartoonish like that. Just my observation

- boats boats boats... they're thinking about them and there are things that need to happen / be figured out. Sounds like they're in the cards, but not exactly for expansion then? If the "when" is not clear? Hmm, really makes me wonder how they're treating Umbar in terms of content. Whatever happens, hopefully they don't waste the bay/coast. Limit the action to city alone if you have to, then. Lets have the bay and rest (what's between Gondor and Umbar city) with coasts for second Umbar expac with boats maybe ;P Scenario said "Rohan is our benchmark" and that sounds good, because yes, it really still is! So fingers crossed here. (Well, Cardo Swan was big/open too, but two Rohans plus Wildermore/Great River which are technically part of Rohan really do feel so biiiig, and South definitely needs to feel like it expands in scope, even if not all of it is made traversable all at once or perhaps not even in many many years)

Well, you definitely hit that mark of awe with me. I did feel like it was a milestone with each key place, Rohan, Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul, Barad-dur (maybe less so, but hey, Sauron's tower was gone already and that's why, so perhaps the first Black Gate cinematic was that moment for me). Though for Umbar I feel like the water with ships, many ships, on it... is really essential to do this and do this well. But if that's just the size of Mouth of Anduin, then would probably feel rather underwhelming, at least to me. And while Dol Amroth structurally is VERY cool and works for that content (some wingy and other details discussed elsewhere put aside), DA do has this smallish smallish very tight port, with like 2 ships occupying 2 of 5 dockyard spots and one Night Jewel serving as a one-ship blockade :P A bit on the toyish side. Which can be felt in the game sometimes, sure, but in 2023 and if that's something cool like Umbar, plus you're planning to add boats, ideally would need to convey the grandness and scope much better. If Umbar was put on a new map, with space to grow it and grow it well, without rush, then I could really see the "South" map as a pinnacle of boat/coast/ocean world design, very large in scope. Like, eventually you guys could beat AC Origins/Odyssey in terms of water-adjacent scope! And probably WOW too, even despite all of it being set on some islands, because SSG's world design is really really good once they delve into it well

About Gondor changes and backporting them... hopefully you'll be able to face that work and do that in one of these upcoming updates, hopefully... I get the difficulty but I still wonder why not start the geography/rocks in old Gondor first, if there is NPC/object in the way = things don't get put there, and then everything copied over to After when it looks good and then second worldbuilding phase in King's Gondor on After map. Maybe you could actually somewhat do that in this order for next update beyond Linhir? So no need to actually backport these things later... and just the Eastern part what would be the most difficult

[auximenes]

in the real world you don't exactly notice that it rains in that other district of the city from distance away unless you're moving very fast in a modern world (or in the sky on a dragon ;P). This change happens naturally and is not some visible barrier of clouds from which it rains next door.

I can tell you from experience that you definitely can sometimes see individual clouds dropping rain while other clouds near that cloud aren't dropping rain.

[k40rne]

-a rainy cloud that you can run into for some dynamic weather effect, which sounds like lots of work to create - hmm, personally not sure about this, unless can be disabled under settings. I know 30 meters in LOTRO's landscape is actually much further in real world terms but still, in the real world you don't exactly notice that it rains in that other district of the city from distance away unless you're moving very fast in a modern world (or in the sky on a dragon ;P). This change happens naturally and is not some visible barrier of clouds from which it rains next door. Like, I can call a friend and find out it doesn't rain there, but if I try to reach my friend's house I'll always be entirely covered by rainy skies, then less rainy, then only a bit of rain, and finally slowly stops and clear skies. No visible "seperate" cloud layer in the distance that it rains from. Sounds more like cartoon-ish style if that was in the game, so I'm sure it could break immersion and cheapen the feel of regions for some people/make them feel smaller in scale. So perhaps something to take into account

No, you can definitely see variations in storm clouds from across the way, but it depends of course.

- boats boats boats... they're thinking about them and there are things that need to happen / be figured out. Sounds like they're in the cards, but not exactly for expansion then? If the "when" is not clear? Hmm, really makes me wonder how they're treating Umbar in terms of content. Whatever happens, hopefully they don't waste the bay/coast. Limit the action to city alone if you have to, then. Lets have the bay and rest (what's between Gondor and Umbar city) with coasts for second Umbar expac with boats maybe ;P Scenario said "Rohan is our benchmark" and that sounds good, because yes, it really still is! So fingers crossed here. (Well, Cardo Swan was big/open too, but two Rohans plus Wildermore/Great River which are technically part of Rohan really do feel so biiiig, and South definitely needs to feel like it expands in scope, even if not all of it is made traversable all at once or perhaps not even in many many years) t

They might still add in something for this expansion, but he likely meant the boats being usable across the entire world, which would clearly take a lot of effort & time to implement.

Well, you definitely hit that mark of awe with me. I did feel like it was a milestone with each key place, Rohan, Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul, Barad-dur (maybe less so, but hey, Sauron's tower was gone already and that's why, so perhaps the first Black Gate cinematic was that moment for me). Though for Umbar I feel like the water with ships, many ships, on it... is really essential to do this and do this well. But if that's just the size of Mouth of Anduin, then would probably feel rather underwhelming, at least to me. And while Dol Amroth structurally is VERY cool and works for that content (some wingy and other details discussed elsewhere put aside), DA do has this smallish smallish very tight port, with like 2 ships occupying 2 of 5 dockyard spots and one Night Jewel serving as a one-ship blockade :P A bit on the toyish side. Which can be felt in the game sometimes, sure, but in 2023 and if that's something cool like Umbar, plus you're planning to add boats, ideally would need to convey the grandness and scope much better. If Umbar was put on a new map, with space to grow it and grow it well, without rush, then I could really see the "South" map as a pinnacle of boat/coast/ocean world design, very large in scope. Like, eventually you guys could beat AC Origins/Odyssey in terms of water-adjacent scope! And probably WOW too, even despite all of it being set on some islands, because SSG's world design is really really good once they delve into it wellt

I feel they usually hit at least 3 major milestone moments per land expansion, that's what has kept the game going all these years.

I doubt they can top AC: Odyssey, the game was built 10 years later with a massive budget, & also the boat combat had evolved after a decade of naval combat development, but I suppose you meant as far as variety & grand scale once the system was entirely fleshed out.

About Gondor changes and backporting them... hopefully you'll be able to face that work and do that in one of these upcoming updates, hopefully... I get the difficulty but I still wonder why not start the geography/rocks in old Gondor first, if there is NPC/object in the way = things don't get put there, and then everything copied over to After when it looks good and then second worldbuilding phase in King's Gondor on After map. Maybe you could actually somewhat do that in this order for next update beyond Linhir? So no need to actually backport these things later... and just the Eastern part what would be the most difficult

Yes, they should be able to easily add the new mountainous geography without much issue, some of which already existed I believe anyhow. I'd expect it to mostly correlate maybe after an update or 2 past the expansion.

[TesalionLortus]

I can tell you from experience that you definitely can sometimes see individual clouds dropping rain while other clouds near that cloud aren't dropping rain.

Well, I guess maybe it's not impossible, so perhaps I actually came across this in my life but I don't think was enough of a "spectacle" to actually register it in any big way in memory. But that would be like extreme rarity then and most likely pretty much blend somewhat with surrounding landscape anyway? So still a concern in my mind whether - with increased occurrence as a game feature - wouldn't appear too "cartoony." You know, like in these kid animations, when a laughing cloud drops rain above the house and all the white clouds around are angry

I doubt they can top AC: Odyssey, the game was built 10 years later with a massive budget, & also the boat combat had evolved after a decade of naval combat development, but I suppose you meant as far as variety & grand scale once the system was entirely fleshed out

Not for combat though, I just meant landscape worldbuilding and the feel of "reality." Captivating geography of these long coastlines and what you might run across on your boat for views, plus the feel of the space, like you're actually moving from one distant country to the next (Gondor to Harad). AC is massive but LOTRO has advantage of building out over multiple regions/years. And if they take Rohan(s) as benchmark and try to be ambitious, to cover what they gotta cover for distances, + their worldbuilding/fog techniques that make you feel like the space is larger than it is, then it can really end up with this real feeling of long-distance travel, with some spacey deserts for buffers and what not. Whereas ACs, while very impressive and detailed, they're a bit on the toyish simulator side with the Great Pyramids seen right there from Alexandria's region, for example. LOTRO is not free of such spaces of course, the worst of them due to bad initial decisions, like having Jarnfast a little bit too close West or Central/Eastern Gondor coast being tiny situation. And of course MT-Osgiliath-MM line is more on the toyish side, though still diminished well enough with fog distance (though the worst part is can't see Mordor mountains from MT as a result, like you do in movies). But in general they're very good at conveying a sense of the big world and travel. Even the old stuff isn't too bad. Feels more spacey and like longer journey for me to move from Breeland to Rivendell than distances conveyed in some other games despite their sizes

Yes, they should be able to easily add the new mountainous geography without much issue, some of which already existed I believe anyhow. I'd expect it to mostly correlate maybe after an update or 2 past the expansion.

Is more about these new rock assets they added than just geography. Like in Tumladen that they "rockified" with new rocks, the rocks could burry some object/NPCs in old Gondor when backported. But if they started in Tumladen of old Gondor, then a designer doing the work would immediately see like "uh-oh can't put anything new here, stuff in the way" which wouldn't create such backporting problems in the first place. Not sure, there might be some reason why they don't do things this way, but if the reason is "better to jump immediately into new things and have all the freedom in the world to change things!" then I would say... they're not trying enough - because old things matter too

[k40rne]

Is more about these new rock assets they added than just geography. Like in Tumladen that they "rockified" with new rocks, the rocks could burry some object/NPCs in old Gondor when backported. But if they started in Tumladen of old Gondor, then a designer doing the work would immediately see like "uh-oh can't put anything new here, stuff in the way" which wouldn't create such backporting problems in the first place. Not sure, there might be some reason why they don't do things this way, but if the reason is "better to jump immediately into new things and have all the freedom in the world to change things!" then I would say... they're not trying enough - because old things matter too

They could just add the stuff that aren't the rocks near the road and Tumladen to start with. Quite a bit of things, especially with the Dwarven stuff in Lebennin could be added without issue, maybe the additional terrain above Harlond that overlooks Minas Tirith too.

[TesalionLortus]

They could just add the stuff that aren't the rocks near the road and Tumladen to start with. Quite a bit of things, especially with the Dwarven stuff in Lebennin could be added without issue, maybe the additional terrain above Harlond that overlooks Minas Tirith too.

Well, sure, but this still wouldn't change the fact the end result would be two spaces that misalign terribly, if they never managed to backport any rocks and other such important, impactful geological changes of the terrain they added. Like, you're in one Tumladen and then you're in another that suddenly has all these harsh rocks and cliffs all over it. While these might be easier, backporting new traversable spaces like the dwarven valley - while cool! - is less impactful in this sense, since narratively they don't need to be there on old map other than some fishbowl geography at borders erased, bushes put and some pathways hinting at their existence beyond the bounds as opposed to just utterly cut off valleys like we had before. (Can even put outright teleport to /loc on After to connect the spaces in this way and allow for movement). So, in this context, I believe the rocks or any cliffs they change/reshape in what was (and still is!) previously accessible parts of pre-Gondor are actually far more important for overall impression, and this is exactly the one that they made the most difficult for themselves to backport :P

[k40rne]

Well, sure, but this still wouldn't change the fact the end result would be two spaces that misalign terribly, if they never managed to backport any rocks and other such important, impactful geological changes of the terrain they added. Like, you're in one Tumladen and then you're in another that suddenly has all these harsh rocks and cliffs all over it. While these might be easier, backporting new traversable spaces like the dwarven valley - while cool! - is less impactful in this sense, since narratively they don't need to be there on old map other than some fishbowl geography at borders erased, bushes put and some pathways hinting at their existence beyond the bounds as opposed to just utterly cut off valleys like we had before. (Can even put outright teleport to /loc on After to connect the spaces in this way and allow for movement). So, in this context, I believe the rocks or any cliffs they change/reshape in what was (and still is!) previously accessible parts of pre-Gondor are actually far more important for overall impression, and this is exactly the one that they made the most difficult for themselves to backport :P

I'm saying it can be a work in progress, but the parts I mentioned doing would be easy to do for immediate effect. As for perfect synchronicity; I do not think we got that, even with Azanulbizar. I explored that entire space and there are certain points you still can't get to, but the vast majority has been added; just most of it not easy to access.

Also, Harlond is destroyed in the war version, so it won't be easy to play with that area much, which is near where those rocks were added, if I recall.

[TesalionLortus]

I'm saying it can be a work in progress, but the parts I mentioned doing would be easy to do for immediate effect. As for perfect synchronicity; I do not think we got that, even with Azanulbizar. I explored that entire space and there are certain points you still can't get to, but the vast majority has been added; just most of it not easy to access.

Also, Harlond is destroyed in the war version, so it won't be easy to play with that area much, which is near where those rocks were added, if I recall.

It can be a work in progress, sure! Like, my initial point was only that perhaps in reverse order (war version first, then copied over already with new rock pass) would certainly make things more comfy and less tricky

I'm not sure I discovered any vastly differing parts yet and some geography/rocks/tress/ravines would sure differ in some ways, yeah, but it all comes down to plausibility in this case and selling the differences. Azanulbizar/Mordor Besieged are easy because they're set hundreds of years apart for any possible differences to take shape and the earlier versions of them are based on more modern version (in the timeline) so they align pretty well. But Gondor now is the opposite, because they took earlier version of it from the timeline and created newer version of it, and those two things are only separated by like 2 months (and in terms of content, by nothing - you finish Pelennor battle and puff, new rocks everywhere.) If you put it all in reverse, and it was pre-war that had such rocks but King's Gondor didnt, then it would have been far more plausible for a visual difference to take place especially if they applied a narrative to it - that all of the rocks were gone now because they needed that stone for rebuilding :P

[k40rne]

It can be a work in progress, sure! Like, my initial point was only that perhaps in reverse order (war version first, then copied over already with new rock pass) would certainly make things more comfy and less tricky

I'm not sure I discovered any vastly differing parts yet and some geography/rocks/tress/ravines would sure differ in some ways, yeah, but it all comes down to plausibility in this case and selling the differences. Azanulbizar/Mordor Besieged are easy because they're set hundreds of years apart for any possible differences to take shape and the earlier versions of them are based on more modern version (in the timeline) so they align pretty well. But Gondor now is the opposite, because they took earlier version of it from the timeline and created newer version of it, and those two things are only separated by like 2 months (and in terms of content, by nothing - you finish Pelennor battle and puff, new rocks everywhere.) If you put it all in reverse, and it was pre-war that had such rocks but King's Gondor didnt, then it would have been far more plausible for a visual difference to take place especially if they applied a narrative to it - that all of the rocks were gone now because they needed that stone for rebuilding :P

Yeah, the time differential certainly adds to how problematic it is. But I'd just be patient & expect it to be dealt with in time. Scenario is quite a perfectionist (the Gondorian winged aesthetic aside); pretty sure it will gnaw at him enough to sort it eventually.

[TesalionLortus]

Yes, hopefully!

Regarding filling-the-gaps and upcoming housing area... Scenario, is it in the cards to allow access to a certain previously inaccessible space of a certain race? From the North, with the neighborhood connected to that place? Would have been pretty neat, if that was feasible. Especially that the functional, traversable space introduced by housing makes this Northern direction sound like a more natural, more comfortable approach to that place vs the Southern one which was originally intended. (Although, if that space was made available on open landscape, would be nice to have it wholly connected to the larger world, so with a functional path to the South too).

PS: Not gonna spoil... but is easy to figure out now and the prepped terrain was there for a long time, I think

[Feral_Yoda]

Yes, hopefully!

Regarding filling-the-gaps and upcoming housing area... Scenario, is it in the cards to allow access to a certain previously inaccessible space of a certain race? From the North, with the neighborhood connected to that place? Would have been pretty neat, if that was feasible. Especially that the functional, traversable space introduced by housing makes this Northern direction sound like a more natural, more comfortable approach to that place vs the Southern one which was originally intended. (Although, if that space was made available on open landscape, would be nice to have it wholly connected to the larger world, so with a functional path to the South too).

PS: Not gonna spoil... but is easy to figure out now and the prepped terrain was there for a long time, I think

I'll go along with keeping it vague.

Yeah that terrain has been there for awhile... and the few glimpses we got of it in the Gundabad missions and instances seemed to be changing into something. Now we know what (though that what has been rumored here on the forums since the debut of that "northern approach."

I doubt we'd get an entrance into the ruins though. I don't think its a thing those currently living there would do. But Yes i'd love to have the southern route to those ruins actually opened. Perhaps through the public dungeon already name associated with the upper ruins? Or a teleport path from that blocked pass near Goblin Town?

[TesalionLortus]

and the few glimpses we got of it in the Gundabad missions and instances seemed to be changing into something. Now we know what (though that what has been rumored here on the forums since the debut of that "northern approach."

Well, I've been in the mission space today and there is definitely a Minecraft wall there now... rather than this entire Northern section that used to be there. (Maybe a Minecraft wall serves to cover up what's there? Idk). Whatever happens, I hope Scenario won't forget there should be at least some ruined walls/defenses visible on this Northern side, encircling the lake, otherwise the ruined layout will... hardly make sense and such a strange gap will be awkward/unnatural, when viewed from the neighborhood.