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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Huntsman will not be a melee trait tree, it will be augmented by melee, but keep the core philosophy.
    I sure hope so. Forgive my skepticism but so far Huntsman has always been nerfed/changed in a way that I didn't like. The last LM (especially blue) and mini changes are also very disheartening.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    On Nimble Fingers, the finesse is there, specifically, for trap consistency - though getting more finesse to consistently hit shouldn't be unwelcome.
    Just on the inconsistency comment.

    Hunters have very little issue gathering finesse along with other stats because of duel wield and easy to cap mits. So finesse from dps traits just pushes them high enough for most content. Only end game hunters place a finesse tracery and would ignore spending points on finesse traits because of better options.

    The consistency of traps is that you can not confirm who the trap will hit. Many add waves your praying that you hit the correct target.
    - Trap will regularly root the wrong target and annoy healers (Who may be close and get hit by them) and tanks unable to build the aggro the expected by the next to them.
    - Decoy's explosion is hard to time because you need to think 10seconds ahead. The huge crit debuff unable to apply most of the targets that need it in time to be really meaningful, or just miss them completely because they had to move for some reason.
    - OneTrap and Peircing Trap are redundant in group at the moment, but the dots in solo actually ruin future CC so they're not really wanted as traps
    - Tripwire is an incredibly powerful trap but again because you can't confirm who gets tripped it's basically pointless.

    All this may be crossed out with new 'Emergency Preparations' and 'AoE traps' but even that might not be enough. I'm worried they might still remain with lag and targets moving.

    Things like Tripwires knockdown is better place to a single target skill like bards arrow
    While many of the other debuffs may be ok, it's then mostly decoy's being a major pain and OneTrap/Piercing functioning the exact same.


    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    On Decoy/Deadly Decoy, it could be made indestructible and simple explode on a timer. Maybe it would make more sense to have the Decoy become different variants. Decoy and Deadly Decoy. They could share a cooldown and do different things so that there would be utility to each variant.

    Decoy - being the taunt version that extends its duration with Master Trapper. Better utility in small fellowship/solo play - when needed.
    Deadly Decoy being the version that adds the critical chance buff after exploding. Better utility ins fellowship and raid play.
    Kinda solves one part but the crit debuff is amazing, in solo/smallfellow you generally would want deadly decoy even with the negatives.

    Exploding Decoy has awkward negatives
    - Damages targets you may want to perma stun
    - Adaptability gets lost by a weak stun

    Is it not possible to just make it explode (damage/stun/debuff) if used in combination with exploding arrows?

    Both decoys can actually pull aggro from tank in awkward moments, especially any times in raid with 10+ targets. If you could instantly explode it with explosive arrow the downsides get less confusing:
    - The stun is close to duration of the fire puddle, so they get every tick and not questioning damage or not
    - The aggro tick is ~2seconds after deploy, exploding it quickly removes possibility
    - This confirms the debuff on targets you need without worry

    This set bonus:

    Imposing Presence
    Replaces Strong Intimidation and moves to 15 Rank Set Bonus

    Reduce Bard's Arrow Damage by 25%
    Increase Bard's Arrow Fear duration by 5s
    -10% to target Fear Resistance

    Increase Deadly Decoy duration by 5s
    Increase Deadly Decoy health by 25%
    Increase Damage of Deadly Decoy by 10%

    Is a nerf to either decoys because of the duration. It seems from previous comment it was 15s to explode, many adds die in that time. Then moving it to 20seconds is basically making you try to predict 20s into the future in hopes it hits your target where you want.

    Master Trapper, given my comments above, Decoy might gain duration. The ommission of Triple Trap's damage boost was just a copy/paste error. I could also see Tripwire moving the knockdown duration.
    Decoy needs less duration.

    Even solo play, the hunter will have ~7 forms of CC and decoy. The duration is just making the stun/debuff/damage harder to hit. Any hunter will be taking aggro off it after 3-7 seconds depending on skills used, if not never losing aggro to decoy.


    On Combat Traps, I could see moving this up to 2s per rank, but with the addition of explosive traps moving all traps to AoE effects, we need to be cautious with cooldowns.
    Especially if your keeping some of the evade procs in PvP. It could get silly the amount of traps a single hunter could have up (Not that it isn't already).


    On Distracting Shot, with the full trait and max tracery, you'd drop the cooldown to about 14s. It's conceivable that the new trait Improved Distracting Shot could see a 5s duration/rank improvement too.

    On Trapper of Foes in general, there is a desire to push this trait tree a bit further and to allow the utilities to overlap. We will get there through testing, of course.
    These are the changes I'd love to see.

    yHunter is in awkward competition with rHunter now. There is no defesive buffs/debuffs for the group. So your calculating yHunter as a DPS support with some utility. So if the numbers are too high, you could see yHunter completely dominate over rHunter in raids as numbers scale.

    Just to seperate the function, adding on some damage reduction ability to make it a comparable to burglar or lore-master at least adds a 3rd "Debuffer" spec into the mix.
    Level 140: Burg, Captain, Guard, Brawler, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Champ, Warden, Rune-Keeper, Beorning

  3. #103
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    If I'm correct in listing out the current idea's

    These are the CC's given to yHunter just listed out.

    Root:
    1. Trap / Triple Trap
    2. Pinning Shot
    3. Rain of Thorns

    Stun:
    1. ...

    Daze:
    1. Dazing Blow
    2. Decoy (explosion)
    3. Distracting Shot
    4. Cry of the Hunter

    Knockout / Knockdown:
    1. Tripwire

    Fear:
    1. Bards Arrow

    Slow:
    1. Strength Stance Quick Shot
    2. Barbed Arrow
    3. Piercing Trap
    4. The One Trap
    5. Low Cut
    6. Cry of the Hunter


    Compared the LM it may be somewhat similar, but it's a lot more controlled. With burg, there are much less, especially if you ignore traits in other lines as I have done here.


    To review them

    Root:
    - Because roots aren't "Hard" CC these roots can actually trigger mechanics and skills of enemies, or, just attack the closest target. So can be seen as bad to use.
    1. Trap / Triple Trap :: The root is mainly used in solo play. In group play they are mostly ignorred for better damage, while in yellow used exclusively for the IncDamage debuff and trying to ignore the roots downsides
    2. Pinning Shot :: Practically useless in group play and is another solo only skill to make things even easier, even with alternatives that may be better.
    3. Rain of Thorns :: Has odd useage on some mechanics similar to lore-masters herb lore. This still does not trigger the IncDamage debuff and is generally not used unless mass root is helpful (and avoided mostly because AoE roots can be bad)

    Stun:
    1. ... :: I'm just going off changes made, with decoy losing it's stun to a daze, he hunter actually has no stuns! Shocking!

    Daze:
    1. Dazing Blow :: I know it's in the name but this is a bloated daze when low cuts function is the same. Many hunters forget this removes corruptions and use it as 1 of many "omg they got close better CC" skill.
    2. Decoy (explosion) :: Making this into a daze is actually kinda cool because now you can daisy chain another daze after it so the AoE stun/damage doesn't ruin it. It's like a small Banes-Flare. Unfortunately, completely inconsistent with decoys function.
    3. Distracting Shot :: Actually able to lock down a target permanently like other CC classes. No more time praying fear doesn't make them wonder into your AoE. Actual comparable skills!
    4. Cry of the Hunter :: I don't understand why this skill is so bloated for the hunters anti-CC skill. Hunters use it as an AoE intterupt when needed. This could easily be it's own skill and not the anti-cc skill the hunter wants. Again, it's a daze, so daisy chain dazes through this is fine. With Cry+Decoy we could get 10seconds of daze (like banes-flare). But it's just such a bloated skill all hunters get it's weird.

    Knockout / Knockdown:
    1. Tripwire :: It's super strong, super inconsistent. Due to adaptability this extra CC is helpful in raids. But it's just so hard to make sure you single out your target like burg, guardian, warden, and brawler can with there knockdowns (brawler also haveing an AoE one). If this becomes 4+ targets with explosive traps it does help, but it may still trigger on adds and junk we don't want very regularly.

    Fear:
    1. Bards Arrow :: Fears are odd. But this long almost permanent CC comes as Distracting Shots saviour when our tanks hit our stunned targets.

    Slow:
    - Slows have generally become irrelevant in all group content. In PvP they have purpose some times but the amount to stop it doesn't make it a priority. In landscape use other CC and walk away. With so many, hunter passively uses it when it needs but it doesn't change gameplay.
    1. Strength Stance Quick Shot :: a 35% slow which makes many other slows seem redundant. Super easy to apply - however, when do you want to a slow a target? Why not look at the other CC hunter has to offer. Or in huntsman, just kite em and do damage.
    2. Barbed Arrow :: A minor slow that is hardly noticeable in any content. You may get 1 arrow more, but if you were wanting that, you would Strength Stance slow.
    3. Piercing Trap :: a slow that is dwarfed by other slows and basically has no function
    4. The One Trap :: Another 35% slow that is dwarfed by other slows and basically has no function
    5. Low Cut :: Grand father skill of old days when hunters used this alone to kite people. Madness how bloated hunter has become this slow seems redundant even tho it's 50%.
    6. Cry of the Hunter :: Why does the anti-cc need a slow? And AoE? And a bubble? And a daze? And dispells slows! AND A RUN SPEED BUFF! Wow, just cut this skill up and put it value elseware. Not needed, Hunter should have a clean "You click this when stunned" like other classes.


    So...

    Hunter isn't really able to compete with burglar or lore-master in group content for CC and the sheer bloat just makes landscape a laughing stock while making other CC redundant.

    Many of these things could be somthing useful instead.

    • Pinning Shot :: This would be better as a debuff of some kind, as I've suggested elseware, it seems name wise to add -MeleeDamage here so it's not another bloat root that we don't really need. That way yellow hunter if right off the bat understood as the "Defensive support hunter".
    • RainOfThorns :: Ideally I'd ask for this to be Hunters Bane Flare, but if thats not possible, at least make it give the trap debuff so the hunter has a simple and consistant way of applying it AoE without traps being weird?
    • Decoy :: The more I think the more I want it's stun/daze removed. Again, explosive arrow to explode it to make it consistent? Is it possible?
    • Cry Of The Hunter :: Split this skill up, give hunter a clean self anti-stun. This can stay as a Hunter-Bane-Flare if needed, but honestly it seems more fitting to keep it as slow+speed+bubble as a survival tool. The Stun can go elseware...
    • Tripwire :: Inconsistant or kinda nuts with explosive traps. I honestly would prefer this to be applied to Bards Arrow to make sure the hunter can consistantly and easily combo CC a target, or knockdown someone who needs it. This is a function Burg/Guardian/Warden do now, making it inconsistant AoE might just make it awkward to miss key moments and you might as well look to just make this a normal stun for adds then to not ruin adaptability and be a comparable to Burglar/Loremaster/Champ in that AoE stun regards
    • Bards Arrow :: I dunno, I'd rather it was able to knockdown as a replacement in yellow so we have that clear consistant extra ability some classes have. But it is useful for CC help and makes hunter a little more consistant. However, with adaptability, losing that stun anyway, the fear is kinda fluffy to help there anyway. Do ou want this a damage skill? I dunno
    • The One Trap :: Unsure if staying, needs to seperate itself from Piercing and is just complete slow bloat.
    • Low Cut :: The slow is one of best in the game, but you know what a yHunter would love given recent content? AoE Intterupt. Only guardian has it (and it has LODES of it). I don't get why this ability can't be given to more. Low cut seems like a clean contender making yHunter a funky pick to help intterupt big time.
    • Cry Of The Hunter :: Again, holy moly this skill is insane.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Apr 29 2023 at 08:29 PM.
    Level 140: Burg, Captain, Guard, Brawler, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Champ, Warden, Rune-Keeper, Beorning

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    Hunters have very little issue gathering finesse along with other stats because of duel wield and easy to cap mits. So finesse from dps traits just pushes them high enough for most content. Only end game hunters place a finesse tracery and would ignore spending points on finesse traits because of better options.
    Seconded, which is the same issue I have with the +Physical Mastery trait in the potential blue line revision.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    OneTrap and Peircing Trap are redundant in group at the moment, but the dots in solo actually ruin future CC so they're not really wanted as traps
    "Currently", but if the damage on the one trap is scaled, and piercing trap retains its healing element, both of these would be wholly invaluable, given that both would be AoE DoT effects, and piercing trap would restore morale on hits to every target currently suffering from the dot, these would be massive elements of primarily damage, and then off-healing support.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    Kinda solves one part but the crit debuff is amazing, in solo/smallfellow you generally would want deadly decoy even with the negatives.
    I read this as you would have access to both.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    Both decoys can actually pull aggro from tank in awkward moments, especially any times in raid with 10+ targets. If you could instantly explode it with explosive arrow the downsides get less confusing:
    The stun is close to duration of the fire puddle, so they get every tick and not questioning damage or not
    The aggro tick is ~2seconds after deploy, exploding it quickly removes possibility
    This confirms the debuff on targets you need without worry
    The idea would obviously be that you would only use "decoy" when a tank dies, or get aggro off of a healer or another squishy target if the tank is out of range, I actually see this being incredibly useful considering it puts the hunter and others out of harms way. I also understood this to mean that "deadly decoy" would not have the taunt component, but Orion would need to clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    Increase Deadly Decoy duration by 5s
    Increase Deadly Decoy health by 25%
    Increase Damage of Deadly Decoy by 10%

    Is a nerf to either decoys because of the duration. It seems from previous comment it was 15s to explode, many adds die in that time. Then moving it to 20seconds is basically making you try to predict 20s into the future in hopes it hits your target where you want.
    I believe the idea would be deadly decoy would explode faster and decoy would last longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    Just to seperate the function, adding on some damage reduction ability to make it a comparable to burglar or lore-master at least adds a 3rd "Debuffer" spec into the mix.
    One of the traps (probably the one trap) could debuff targets damage, I think that would be a good fit, but you wouldn't want to go more than that.
    Last edited by Hephburz-2; Apr 29 2023 at 08:50 PM.

  5. #105
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    One thing I will add about the CC capability of YHunter:

    Distracting Shot & Dazing Blow; Dazing two targets, which is often required of the cc class, is going to be a nightmare here, one of your dazes requires melee range, and the other requires an induction, I'm not suggesting to remove the melee aspect of Dazing Blow, but I would seriously urge you to consider removing the Induction of Distracting Shot. Yellow already has higher inductions than Red/Blue because it is incapable of picking up all induction reduction modifiers from both lines, the induction on Distracting Shot could be the difference between a mob getting a cast off or not.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    For Huntsman, I am going to start by asking the question. ... The one clear exception is the removal of Barrage. To adjust for that I would like to understand better, how most of you are using your current rotation. Could you share your current rotations for landscape, solo instance, small group, etc...?
    I don't know how typical I am but, because of the bizarre cooldown, I use Barrage in two modes. For landscape mobs, I treat it like a skill with a 6-second cooldown, so it is always available at that rate. As I go to the next mob, I avoid the uncertainty of whether the previous mob ended with a Barrage 3, so it's still on cooldown, or a Barrage 2 with the 9 (formerly 17) second window when the next Barrage would trigger the long cooldown, or if it has been long enough so I'm back to Barrage 1.

    For a troll or solo boss fight where I know I'll use all of them, I do three Barrages in a row (interleaving Blood Arrow and Exsanguinate in the cooldowns) so in 5 seconds I get the 1+1.5+2.3=4.8 x Barrage damage, which justifies the 12 (formerly 15) second cooldown.
    Michaleo / Nodread / Wrytune / Truroar / Varmentor Toolmaker
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    For Huntsman, The one clear exception is the removal of Barrage. To adjust for that I would like to understand better, how most of you are using your current rotation. Could you share your current rotations for landscape, solo instance, small group, etc...?
    I personally love Blue line for the feel of the non-induction/focus spender skill flow. Precision stance, mass pen shot spam (alternating with barrage), using free cast proc on HS and Swiftbow free cast when proc'd, blood arrow/exsang, cutting longer animations/PSD with blindside. With the addition of a large CD to barrage it diluted that flow and then the Pen shot CD has done the same. IDK if there still needs to be a CD on it now that its harder to Power battery someone? I know there was some bug/exploit with it so assuming thats fixed having a low CD high APM flow for Blue is my ideal. Adding Lingering is a nice touch in that direction.

    Having Exsanguinate tied to Blood arrow feels really awkward. Like its stranded. You want the DoT running but you want to hold blood arrow for defense. Not sure where you might put it instead, maybe behind a Lingering arrow --> Scourging blow chain and have it be a bit more impactful? That would add a bit more flow to Blue's DoT application, cash out flow.

    Since you'll need to alternate coming into melee range for damage and moving out for survivability reasons having ranged and melee skills with fast animations would help to ease that back and forth.
    Burg has some substantial CD's to survive being in melee as a medium armor class (including HIPS which gets you out of danger), warden has a shield and hots, a Blue scrapper hunter might need some melee-range specific defensive buffs/cd's.


    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    On Hunstman in general, therelikely does need to be another melee and the most obvious choice would be to return Blindside back into the arrow thrust through the enemy followed by a ranged shot. There might be a nice compromise here where the range on this skill is increased further than traditional melee skills.
    There are some old melee skills (pre 85) which could be re-used/updated for this hole. Swift Stroke and Agile Rejoinder. I love the idea of a scrapper hunter and having some minor survivability buffs when entering melee would be nice. Even just a small parry bonus like old Swift Stroke used to give.


    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    A well-played version of Huntsman using the mix and match of melee and ranged skills should be roughly comparable, in damage output, with a well-played Bowmaster.
    I am happy to hear that Blue won't be held back anymore. Something to be mindful of is perma-slow kiting melee creeps, but that's an easier fix.

    My other comment is toward Yellow. I don't care to play it, but giving it deeper functionality as a Debuffer to allow it to slot in a raid instead of a yBurg or yLM would make it a viable alternative and highly used line. Keeping it entirely CC related I believe keeps it out of contention for a raid support slot where an LM would just perform the same role better. Otherwise I'm concerned it will remain very niche with a high build cost, performing way above average in CC for adds, and way below average in boss debuffing.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Impactctful Arrows
    0 -5 Tier
    5 Ranks

    Increases Ranged Damage by 1% per rank
    Could this be changed something meaningful/more exciting?
    I would happy to see a +5% anything buff in addition here, actually. Just 1% damage is so boring...
    And if I'm not mistaken, it still ties to Mastery, at least the Physical Mastery tooltip says this. (+205% instead of +200%, which is actually +1,67%. For 5 trait points. Ridiculous.)

    -Attack Duration, -Movement speed penalty while inducting, +Finesse, +Incoming healing, really, anything. This is just a plain bad trait for common Blue gameplay, and only worth if you're minmaxing damage in Red.

    Another weird example: an Elf Hunter could skip this 5 trait points, and their damage would be the same as Human, Hobbit, etc. Hunter's. (Maybe higher, if +5% bow weapon damage is a multiplicative buff.)

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tepee View Post
    Could this be changed something meaningful/more exciting?
    I would happy to see a +5% anything buff in addition here, actually. Just 1% damage is so boring...
    And if I'm not mistaken, it still ties to Mastery, at least the Physical Mastery tooltip says this. (+205% instead of +200%, which is actually +1,67%. For 5 trait points. Ridiculous.)
    After the mastery changes in U35, this is no longer the case.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    After the mastery changes in U35, this is no longer the case.
    Well, Captain get +6% dps just from kicking target

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    After the mastery changes in U35, this is no longer the case.
    Thank you for clarifing.

    I wondered on this with the Mastery Update, but the tooltip still says 205% instead of 200%...

    Anyways, my second reason still holds. 5% damage for 5 trait points is really meh.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    On Hunstman in general, therelikely does need to be another melee and the most obvious choice would be to return Blindside back into the arrow thrust through the enemy followed by a ranged shot. There might be a nice compromise here where the range on this skill is increased further than traditional melee skills. Oh, and all the melee skills will have their range unified to the standard distance for other melee classes. The strange disparity needs to be normalized.
    Please, please, please do not make Blindside a Melee skill again. Hunters need a ranged Interrupt, and Blindside has been working well in its current capacity for this. I don't think it would be hyperbole to say that changing this would perhaps be the most disliked aspect of this revamp. If you're dead set on this, make this a change for Huntsman only, as I don't think any Red Hunter wants this. Alternatively, just add another Melee skill if you think another is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    Just to close this out, the goal with incorporating melee into this tree is to make it an additive aspect of the trait tree, with better benefit in longer fights - traditionally group play. A well-played version of Huntsman using the mix and match of melee and ranged skills should be roughly comparable, in damage output, with a well-played Bowmaster.
    I still think I'd prefer to see Blue become a passive utility line as per Option #2, but with aspects of the Option #1 proposal incorporated. Even if Huntsman is hugely buffed, the net results will be that players will predominantly play in either Red (as currently) or Blue (if that somehow overtakes Red, perhaps due to its mobility if their DPS becomes comparable), and the other line will fall by the wayside yet again. We're already seeing that in the yoyoing Red/Yellow meta for Rune-keeper. Saving Yellow is, I think, worth the investment, as it's an entirely different role, but I'm still not overly convinced it's worth trying to save Blue.

    I'm not necessarily opposed to gaining more Melee combat, but I do think this will be ignored most of the time. That said, there could be some value to them in Delvings when there is Adaptability up. I also like the idea of comboing Melee and Ranged skills, where hitting a Melee skill gives a bonus to your next Ranged, etc. This could potentially lead to some interesting gameplay (or, again, it could be mostly ignored).

    -Bel
    Last edited by Belnavar; Apr 30 2023 at 12:29 PM.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    If you're dead set on this, make this a change for Huntsman only, as I don't think any Red Hunter wants this.
    This would be a Huntsman only change, if it were to happen.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    Please, please, please do not make Blindside a Melee skill again. Hunters need a ranged Interrupt, and Blindside has been working well in its current capacity for this. I don't think it would be hyperbole to say that changing this would perhaps be the most disliked aspect of this revamp. If you're dead set on this, make this a change for Huntsman only, as I don't think any Red Hunter wants this. Alternatively, just add another Melee skill if you think another is needed.




    -Bel
    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    This would be a Huntsman only change, if it were to happen.
    It shouldn't happen in any line. Some instances will become harder to solo on level if Blindside is made melee, no matter what spec.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tepee View Post
    Thank you for clarifing.

    I wondered on this with the Mastery Update, but the tooltip still says 205% instead of 200%...

    Anyways, my second reason still holds. 5% damage for 5 trait points is really meh.
    Yes, it’s still +5% mastery but after U35, mastery buffs are calculated differently which means they are closer to their true value than as you said, 1.67% - these type of points exist across all the classes considering it is a flat damage increase to all of your skills, it has to be a low number, anything above 10% and things would start getting over the top.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    The last update I will make here is to Bowmaster.

    Only the updated traits or trait sets are listed here.

    The changes to this trait tree are far less and have the following goal: Bowmaster is the traditional back-line archer with skills that deal devastating damage because of careful aim and concentration. Bowmaster can move, but is rewarded with greater efficacy when stationary and making the most of their induction skills.

    Bowmaster

    Gains the Skill: Barrage
    Gains the Passive Trait: Needful Haste
    -.8s Swift Bow induction
    -25% Attack Duration
    +10 Max Range for all ranged skills

    Swift Release
    5 Rank Set Trait Bonus

    33% Reduction to Barbed Arrow and Swift Bow Inductions

    Draw Weight
    5-10 Tier
    5 Ranks
    +3% Induction Bow Damage and +3 Induction Bow Critical Multiplier /Rank

    Swift and True
    5-10 Tier
    6 Ranks
    +6% Swift Bow Damage/tier
    and
    Tier 5: Quick shot has a 25% chance to reduce the induction of Swift Bow by 100%

    Shoot to Kill
    10 Rank Set Trait Bonus

    +10% Ranged Damage
    +2.5% Critical Magnitude

    Deadly Precision
    10-15 Tier
    3 Ranks

    +33% chance to gain +1 Focus on a critical hit/rank
    Reduces the cooldown of Penetrating Shot by 1s per rank

    Archer's Mark
    15 Rank Trait Set Bonus

    20% Chance on Critical to increase incoming damage on the target by 2.5% for 10s can occur once every 60s. (Benefits all players hitting the target)

    Bow of the Righteous
    20-25 tier
    No other changes

    Relentless Barrage
    Replaces Bodkin Arrows
    25-30 Tier
    2 Ranks

    Rank 1: Reduces the cooldown of Barrage 1 and 2 by 1s
    Rank 2: Removes the cooldown of Barrage 1, 2 and 3
    Barrage 3 becomes:
    +280% Barrage Damage
    +400% Barrage Power Cost
    Cost: 2 Focus
    Adds Barrage 4
    Damge+Bonus Damage
    [9320 power]
    Cost: 2 Focus
    Cooldown 12s

    Storm of Arrows
    Replaces Hail of Arrows
    25-30 tier
    2 Ranks

    Rank 1: Rain of Arrows becomes Hail of Arrows
    Fires two volleys of arrows that strikes up to 10 targets within 10 meters of your target. Costs 7 Focus
    First volley Deals Current value of Rain of Arrows, second volley deals 66% of the first volley

    Tier 2: Hail of Arrows becomes Storm of Arrows
    Channeled Skill 6s
    Costs 2 focus per second
    Hits up to 10 targets within 10m of original target, applies a 10% slow and deals damage every 2 seconds while active.

    Plant Feet
    30+ Tier

    Every 1.5s you do not move gain a tier of Hold Ground; Max 5 tiers, expires if you move for more than 3s, or are out of combat for 9s, Tiers down on Critical Strike:
    +2% Evade, Damage, and critical chance

    Marskman
    35 Rank Trait Set Bonus

    Marksman
    5% Bypass Mitigation for all focus bow skills
    On Critical Hit, Reduce Cooldown of Upshot, Merciful Shot, and Heart Seeker by 1s
    On Devastating Critical Hit, Reduce Cooldown of Upshot, Merciful Shot, and Heart Seeker by 2s

    Current thoughts on the potential change to Bowmaster for Option #1.

    Discuss?
    I'm going to agree with a lot of the others here in that this looks horrible. It looks like you're trying to punish hunter players with higher power costs for a damage rotation, and the channel change for "storm of arrows" is particularly gross.

    And I get that you wanna change bobkin arrows, especially after the recent mit change fiasco, since hunters were less effected than other classes, but we don't deserve getting saddled with that barrage monstrosity in red line. Jesus dude.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    I'm going to agree with a lot of the others here in that this looks horrible. It looks like you're trying to punish hunter players with higher power costs for a damage rotation, and the channel change for "storm of arrows" is particularly gross.

    And I get that you wanna change bobkin arrows, especially after the recent mit change fiasco, since hunters were less effected than other classes, but we don't deserve getting saddled with that barrage monstrosity in red line. Jesus dude.
    This feels like a massive exaggeration? Not only are there hardly any changes except for the addition of Barrage, change to plant feet (which is good) and change to RoA, (the RoA change especially for smaller AoE fights where reset is not always consistent), and Bodkin arrows needed to go.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    This feels like a massive exaggeration? Not only are there hardly any changes except for the addition of Barrage, change to plant feet (which is good) and change to RoA, (the RoA change especially for smaller AoE fights where reset is not always consistent), and Bodkin arrows needed to go.
    The changes to archers mark means it costs more points for the same effect, and we'll have similar focus generation to live. But we get two new giant focus sinks, one that needs to be spammed on cooldown to maximize dps, and is a huge power sink as well, when hunters are already one of the worst power consuming classes right now on live? It's actually awful. The option 2 idea of moving bobkin arrow's mit pen to penetrating shots debuff was good, so everyone got it.

    But replacing it with a spam skill that costs up to almost 10k power? That's the kind of idea I'd submit if I hated the class and wanted to see it fail. Raiding during Barrage spam meta at 105 was cancer, needing an lm or red cappy in group to even function past 3 minutes now is cancer, and combining the two obviously isn't going to fix it.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    The changes to archers mark means it costs more points for the same effect.
    Because Archers Mark now effects all incoming damage types and not just ranged, which is a huge utility buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    And we'll have similar focus generation to live. But we get two new giant focus sinks, one that needs to be spammed on cooldown to maximize dps, and is a huge power sink as well, when hunters are already one of the worst power consuming classes right now on live?
    Are you actually telling me you have problems with focus? Secondly, if your captain is traiting power restore on RC and you have bow of the righteous, SoE, Intent Concentration, food, and pots, you also can't tell me you are entirely running out of power either, it's fairly easy to maintain with the right trait line + consumbables.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    It's actually awful. The option 2 idea of moving bobkin arrow's mit pen to penetrating shots debuff was good, so everyone got it. But replacing it with a spam skill that costs up to almost 10k power?
    No, Bodkin Arrows should go, DPS classes do not need mitigation bypasses in this fashion, mit debuffs on dps classes are fine, when they are small enough and benefit everyone. It's also not a "spam" skill, you have to go through barrages 1-2-3 first and then barrage 4 has a 12s cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    That's the kind of idea I'd submit if I hated the class and wanted to see it fail. Raiding during Barrage spam meta at 105 was cancer.
    You clearly didn't play with any Captains who had RC power restore, because my Blue Hunters never needed power & however, I will agree that power costs are much more egregious now than at 105, and perhaps more could be done somewhere else in the line given the addition of Barrage, but you are entirely over-exaggerating the current situation.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    The changes to archers mark means it costs more points for the same effect, and we'll have similar focus generation to live. But we get two new giant focus sinks, one that needs to be spammed on cooldown to maximize dps, and is a huge power sink as well, when hunters are already one of the worst power consuming classes right now on live? It's actually awful. The option 2 idea of moving bobkin arrow's mit pen to penetrating shots debuff was good, so everyone got it.

    But replacing it with a spam skill that costs up to almost 10k power? That's the kind of idea I'd submit if I hated the class and wanted to see it fail. Raiding during Barrage spam meta at 105 was cancer, needing an lm or red cappy in group to even function past 3 minutes now is cancer, and combining the two obviously isn't going to fix it.
    Yeah I actually agree with this 100%. Although I feel like nothings gonna get changed power wise because we just had an update that solved like none of the issues of power consumption (lul just bring a cappy and have LM be a power bot lul) Boring gameplay and I can't believe it went live. SMH. Or just eat your 10min regen food that completely negates power as a class mechanic...

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    Because Archers Mark now effects all incoming damage types and not just ranged, which is a huge utility buff.



    Are you actually telling me you have problems with focus? Secondly, if your captain is traiting power restore on RC and you have bow of the righteous, SoE, Intent Concentration, food, and pots, you also can't tell me you are entirely running out of power either, it's fairly easy to maintain with the right trait line + consumbables.
    Meant Deadly Precision, not archers mark.

    And focus isn't a problem -now-, and that's the point. He's suggest 2 extra large focus sinks with no real additional focus generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    No, Bodkin Arrows should go, DPS classes do not need mitigation bypasses in this fashion, mit debuffs on dps classes are fine, when they are small enough and benefit everyone. It's also not a "spam" skill, you have to go through barrages 1-2-3 first and then barrage 4 has a 12s cooldown.
    And again, the reason why I liked moving bobkin arrow's buff to pen shot is because everyone benefited

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephburz-2 View Post
    You clearly didn't play with any Captains who had RC power restore, because my Blue Hunters never needed power & however, I will agree that power costs are much more egregious now than at 105, and perhaps more could be done somewhere else in the line given the addition of Barrage, but you are entirely over-exaggerating the current situation.
    And since you continue to miss the points, I've suggested that hunters shouldn't need a cappy or lm in group to maintain power past 3 or so minutes. It's a flawed system. If you actually so damage in a group you're almost always on the brink of running out of power, even with pots and the high cooldown power restore skills hunter has. Champ, and wardens, the only other major dps at the moment, don't run into that issue (wardens though need the new teal class item for that).

    Don't try to tell other people what they clearly don't do when you don't even seem to raid.
    Red hunter is in a decent spot right now. The original suggestion of giving more focus to deadly precision at least reduced the reliance on quick shot, so we wouldn't have to spam skills. These current red suggests are a 180.

  22. #122
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    Big O, thoughts on allowing Swift and True Swift Bow to be used on the move? And same with Rain of Arrows.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    Meant Deadly Precision, not archers mark.
    It's effectively identical to how it was - only you get far earlier in the tree and need to invest three trait points to get to the same efficacy. You also earn it in the third tier of the tree and have it at 100% on critical strikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    And focus isn't a problem -now-, and that's the point. He's suggest 2 extra large focus sinks with no real additional focus generation. \
    You are correct. There probably does need to be another way to consistently generate focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    And again, the reason why I liked moving bobkin arrow's buff to pen shot is because everyone benefited
    After discussing with the team, we are looking to make changes to the way that bypassing mitigations works. Hence the removal.

    Quote Originally Posted by theultimatekyle View Post
    The original suggestion of giving more focus to deadly precision at least reduced the reliance on quick shot, so we wouldn't have to spam skills. These current red suggests are a 180.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perks View Post
    Big O, thoughts on allowing Swift and True Swift Bow to be used on the move? And same with Rain of Arrows.
    I could see RoA being put on the move. Swift and True, less so.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSG_Orion View Post
    I could see RoA being put on the move. Swift and True, less so.
    But its inductionless, why cant it be used on the move?

 

 
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