An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Champions

[Zaestro]

I am really interested in the new changes and hope that everything works out to make the champion a great character to play. Losing the heavy Shield is going to be very difficult to make up for. My tanking/solo setup has a 15% block with a 5.3% partial block. Using certain gear setups can give massive Mdef boosts like the Enedwaith set. Some shields negate common damage which is huge when taking on common damage. The armour loss of 2000 makes a bigger difference than people think. The champion would need some very huge bonuses to make up for these losses. Without an increase to the evade/parry caps or a skill that increases ranged and melee defence above 15% the champ will be left in the dust when it comes to tanking. Self heals could help but again you are heading into the wardens area.

What you need to make up for when losing a heavy shield

2000 Armour
possible negate damage
15% block, 5% partial block
Mdef
Ranged defence is capped when using a Heavy Shield with scrolls

And therein lies the enormous danger and why every single guardian ought to be flaming this proposed direction.

IF...champs should gain access to all of those defensive things WITHOUT then using shields and consequently reducing dps...and glory further allows a sort-of "dps-tanking" without the penalty... guards in OP will be pretty much floppy and useless...and also in tank stance relegated to a poorer, nerfed version of what has always been intended as an "off-tank" or secondary role for champs.

This is very bad news for the two already overcrowded main tanks in the game. A new, probably worse repeat of the early Moria days sounds to be on the way...

[lotrofanboy17]

I kinda get annoyed when people say ferocious strikes is "completely useless". Maybe for pve and you're constantly behind your opponent while the tank has aggro and b/p/e is irrelavent. But for pvp, especially with the recent -15 second on legacy cooldown, ferocious strikes is awesome. No miss...no parry...no block. Its the **** against reavers and wl's. Especially reavers.

Honestly, brutal clobber, even if you have the legacy for +15% damage, will not out do ferocious strikes in pvp. With that being said, if any revisions are being made to ferocious strikes, they should be subtle. Maybe a moderate 5% increase in base damage.

Word of advice: (People like potential big numbers instead of actual numbers...brutal strikes is extremely overated. Ferocious and feral all the way. My 2c's)

[Jamers]

Word of advice: (People like potential big numbers instead of actual numbers...brutal strikes is extremely overated. Ferocious and feral all the way. My 2c's)

This is very true, which is why you still see Champions spamming RS against high ranked creeps with crit defense in the 'moors.

That being said, Ferocious suffers for me in the 'moors due to high pip cost. Can FS at 5 pips consistently do more damage than BS+Clobber at 4 pips in a PvP setting? And over time in a 1v1?

I don't know. To be honest, haven't used FS in a while.

[Grampsaz]

Orion, some Ardour thoughts/suggestions.

I always found AoE skill rotation to be quite boring and relying to heavily on Strike line skills to generate the pips needed to get into my AoE rotation.

So I would suggest a new AoE skill, or reworking an existing AoE skill to facilitate the AoE line.

New skill should add a pip and do something interesting. A skill that just does dmg is boring. Each other AoE skill does something interesting. So maybe adding a small -Threat to this new skill. The only time most tanks have trouble is when its a AoE pull. So good synergy here.

Or you could update an existing skill to fill this role. Great Cleave could add a pip and do dmg instead of its -pip for X seconds. Capstone version would do a bit more dmg and still reduce the pip cost to zero for X seconds.

Or you could update Fighting dirty. Increase the % to 75% (Or remove it completely) and make it add a pip.

Anything like this would help to keep us involved in a AoE rotation which should be part of the goal.

[skadi]

100% agree. if the only way a champ took damage was through having aggro, then the healing penalty is fine, but nearly every raid has AoE or DoT damage on all/some of the group which means the champ is harder to heal in his best DPS stance while doing nothing wrong. It's a stupid, very lazy solution that is too broad for the problem it was meant to solve and it's sad that Turbine don't seem to be considering changing it in the champ re-vamp

Really good point, Wibs. What if the -30% inc healing penalty was changed to "+30% damage from mobs that have aggro on the Champ"?

That seems to solve a lot of problems. It makes pulling aggro/fervor tanking more dangerous for the champ (More dangerous than it is now) but not impossible. It's not an across-the-board nerf like -30% inc healing - it basically rewards champs who play smart with aggro, and punishes those who don't.

Does that make sense to other people? Is there something I'm missing?

[Kingtheo]

I think Zaetsro has hit this perfectly. I remember those days when a champ was chosen everytime over a guardian because the champ was so superior. We would speed up the entire instance then tank the boss which was also really fast because of the DPS. I think an only weapon tank even in Glory will be the new bread and butter tank pushing the other tanks out of the way. Even now a 2handed Glory champion can push really nice DPS with the -15%. Increase that damage and some new skills voila! supertank! Tanks are meant to take damage or avoid it and hold aggro. The new champ will take the damage and give massive DPS. Guards and Wardens will have a hard time again getting into instances because a champ can do it in 30 minutes instead of 40 minutes.

I think you should have kept the shield give us a few new threat increases for single targets only. A couple new skills and traits to mix the entire Glory up a bit. I say single target because we are an off tank, main tank is the guard and wardens job. The area of a high DPS Glory off-tank I think will be OP and cause a few problems. In the end resulting in nerfs such as Fervour has received in the past. A revamp on a character can be a great thing but changing too many things sometimes can also spell disaster.

[Zaestro]

I think you should have kept the shield give us a few new threat increases for single targets only. A couple new skills and traits to mix the entire Glory up a bit. I say single target because we are an off tank, main tank is the guard and wardens job. The area of a high DPS Glory off-tank I think will be OP and cause a few problems. In the end resulting in nerfs such as Fervour has received in the past. A revamp on a character can be a great thing but changing too many things sometimes can also spell disaster.

I agree with this 100%.

I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.

This change will likely also do damage to those who already DO take advantage of what a champ can do with a shield now...approaching warden levels in soloability...likely limiting the avoidance and mitigation builds and soloing survivability for things that can't just be dps'd down. There are things that "even" a guard must be tank traited and max self-healing to kill, that just can't be beaten through and down in OP stance -- and I suspect this analysis would apply to the "new" glory champs.

Either the shieldless glory tank would be "weak" -- and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking...I doubt this will be intended...or it would have to be envisioned that they will achieve some unwarranted levels of defensive buff, that will consequently jolt them way past the capabilities of guards and wards (who can't dual wield and must use shields to achieve these defensive abilities).

Moreover...if as an alternate to gaining "magical" crit defense and avoidances, etc., from the imagined ethers of traits absent shields, etc., champs could end up with some kind "healing factor" applied...think this was vaguely alluded to as well...this would then be encroaching equally improperly onto warden territory.

The only actually "reasonable" potential for this meandering shieldless glory tank proposition I can see (to other tanking classes) ...would then be very unfair to the current champs who enjoy shields and what already is great champ survivability: would be that a glory champ be greatly improved for holding aggro, but intentionally become significantly LESS defensive than they are at present. Hold before you flame...I will explain:

Have a threat over time reduction to fervour champs...allow them to still dangerously (to themselves) pull aggro initially and with incoming healing yet nerfed for stance (or even more nerfed) potentially kill themselves fast....but as to the ability to continuously "tank" by fervour stance: apply then a ramping up of threat debuff or some such. This would end fervour tanking and encourage (virtually require) the claimed goal of having champs USE glory stance when MEANT to tank. Others have posited this and I think I also may have "read between the lines" into some of what Orion blogged, that he may be considering that fervour aggro would thus be somehow limited or reduced despite be initially "noticed."

In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing). In addition to gaining some signifcant aggro boosts via new skills or stance passives...glory stance, without the healing nerf of fervour, becomes far more sustainable and more easily healed, thus prefered for tanking 6-mans and as an off tank of adds, etc. (both for aggro and for healing without as much loss of dps). Capable OFF-TANKS, but still requiring more healing even in glory than would wardens and guards, due to the less defenses...this, so that wardens and guards are still preferred for endgame raids until things are on farm, etc.

That, imo, is the very definition and a properly encouraged use of glory stance for what has only ever been a secondary role and NON-MAIN tanking use of champ -- which is what a champ is, was and always should be. Viable...but NOT optimal as a tank.

I fully expect people will NOT accept being less than "optimal," even in a secondary roll...but please advise as to what guards and wardens would then be optimal for...behind champs in dps in our secondary roles...and at serious jeopardy in main tanking unless champ tanks with their greater dps are then made WEAKER defensively, by intention.

Anything OTHER than this -- or preferable to ALL of us imo (guards, wards and current shield-using champs)...just some milder tweaks to the current tanking status quo -- is going to break tanking. Champs are better at single target dps...better at AoE dps...and if still rocking high dps, double wielding and matching crit defense, armor and potentially morale (people asking for 5 per point of vit in this thread, mind you) while in glory...why will anyone play a guard ??? Is this desired by the devs,and not just champ fanboi's,,,really??...w'tf!

I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields, but people need to get over the knee-jerk excitement of having more dps and double wielding and/or 2hnding glory with increased dps and potentially defenses, and look at the bigger picture. People need to recognize the huge balancing issues, and how this will be a monumental step backward to a time and place that tanking WAS truly broken...once you push past the simplistic "fun" and surface appeal, and give a broader and more critical analysis.

This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.

Fun thought conceptually...rife with too many potentially game breaking (as far as tanking anyway) and terrible ramifications for implementation.

[Vallik]

And therein lies the enormous danger and why every single guardian ought to be flaming this proposed direction.

IF...champs should gain access to all of those defensive things WITHOUT then using shields and consequently reducing dps...and glory further allows a sort-of "dps-tanking" without the penalty... guards in OP will be pretty much floppy and useless

never going to happen Op guards are horrendously well Overpowered....

they dont actually lose 5% evade in parses the number of evades remains the same in and out of OP
a good OP guard puts out as much dps as your average champ (honestly most champs ive played with are average)
the only penalty is power cost and they have so many tricks and in short fights ( 3 mand 6 mans) its hardly a penalty and with a captain or LM grouped forget about it...

OP guards can tank better than champs can ever hope to and do more dps than a champ specced for tanking can ever hope to (unless Orion does something really over the top which i doubt)

This is very bad news for the two already overcrowded main tanks in the game. A new, probably worse repeat of the early Moria days sounds to be on the way...

the only reason guards where do useless back then was because they had no DPS skills to benefit form high top end li dps and the threat guards generate with a shield was and still is pitiful these days Op guards are top tier dps when played well

Or you could update Fighting dirty. Increase the % to 75% (Or remove it completely) and make it add a pip.

it already adds a pip i hope u mean the morale threshold and not the buff be removed.....

i have fighting dirty traited 90% of the time its a good portion of the doe dps i put out

removing the morale threshold would be insane it would need an additional buff attached to it like -50% threat form next aoe

personally its fine how it is now imo only change i would like to see if it grey out when your selected mob is above the threshold

Really good point, Wibs. What if the -30% inc healing penalty was changed to "+30% damage from mobs that have aggro on the Champ"?

That seems to solve a lot of problems. It makes pulling aggro/fervor tanking more dangerous for the champ (More dangerous than it is now) but not impossible. It's not an across-the-board nerf like -30% inc healing - it basically rewards champs who play smart with aggro, and punishes those who don't.

Does that make sense to other people? Is there something I'm missing?

yea that wont effect anything else negatively... like champs doing solo skirmishes or trying to lvl solo....

as much as i dont do anything not instance related anymore that is a horrible idea that would make leveling a champion so painful....

The new champ will take the damage and give massive DPS. Guards and Wardens will have a hard time again getting into instances because a champ can do it in 30 minutes instead of 40 minutes.

rubbish what your are describing is an Op guard even if they did put a champ on par with an Op guard survivability wise (which is never gonna happen) an op guard does more DPS than a Glory champ and has way better of #&$% skills


Orion isnt an idiot he isnt going to make a champs secondary Role compare to the primary roles of the 2 main tanks (like the Guard dev did with OP guard dps) champs will get a small buff in general power level but the way they tank in glory will likely be changed to be more interesting to play (rather than just turtle up do average dps and spam the i win threat button in rising ire)

[Feybobiam]

stuff

I would strongly recommend against crashing into another class's forums and laying out a lot of maybes, ifs and speculation and then showing them to the Dev that, for all we know, has nothing to do with Guards, and making out as if you're seeing something he isn't or all of us aren't.

First, it's more than kinda presumptuous, a bit pompous and spreads worry when all we have are concepts with absolutely zero numbers. This could go all kinds of ways. The Devs will be back Monday and we'll get some good convo. The best we can do is think, develop ideas - as long as we're aware they are just that, IDEAS and nothing more - but please do not start making a list of what does and does not need to be done. In fact, if that's all you're going to do, please go back to the Guardian forums.

I understand you don't want a repeat of Moria launch. Neither do I. But I think the Devs are aware of that too. Let's just see what happens before we point at the proposed falling sky. I don't want to be a primary tanking class, but I DO want to be able to tank OD if push comes to shove, which sometimes it simply does. I personally think dropping shields is a bad idea, but, I also dunno what Orion has up his sleeve, and knowing him as a pretty slick and inventive guy, I'm eager to see more.

Until then, please, let's not get all crusader.

[Zaestro]

If I am being civil and not throwing around words like "pompous" or otherwise breaking community guidelines of posting -- such as telling people what, when and where they should or shouldn't post -- I will appreciate that my concerns be considered a valid part of any conversation about such proposed changes that will indeed impact my class, because they imply direct competition for a shared role.

I would also suggest that you review your gratuitous personal attacks and alleged motivations ascribed to being included in my post, as instead being far more applicable to your own reply than to any of the sincere concerns I detailed in my post.

Thanks...I am sure we will carry on this conversation at your next appearance in the guard forum.

[GOBiasIndustries]

If I am being civil and not throwing around words like "pompous" or otherwise breaking community guidelines of posting -- such as telling people what, when and where they should or shouldn't post -- I will appreciate that my concerns be considered a valid part of any conversation about such proposed changes that will indeed impact my class, because they imply direct competition for a shared role.

I would also suggest that you review your gratuitous personal attacks and alleged motivations ascribed to being included in my post, as instead being far more applicable to your own reply than to any of the sincere concerns I detailed in my post.

Thanks...I am sure we will carry on this conversation at your next appearance in the guard forum.

The sky is falling...based on no concrete info and, really, one quick blurb in a blog post...with no info about corresponding changes to guards and wardens that you KNOW is coming at the same time. Your post is indeed presumptuous (you presume that Orion is making changes with no thought on how they impact other classes). Pompous, too:

I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance

and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking

This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.

You really think that the devs aren't considering issues about balance between classes? And you really think that all the champs excited about a new direction are excited about being the best in the game at everything, rather than being excited about moving away from being mini-guardians when tank-traited and getting a revamp that makes sense given what the rest of the class is? Earlier you said that OP guards would be useless - no, they would just not be the preferred tanks. It seems like you disagree, but I think that a tanking class that fully traits for DPS should be inferior at tanking to an off-tank class that fully traits for tanking. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with making champ tanking be built primarily on doing damage and using particular skills/rotations, while you seem to think there is.

[striverg]

The sky is falling...based on no concrete info and, really, one quick blurb in a blog post...with no info about corresponding changes to guards and wardens that you KNOW is coming at the same time. Your post is indeed presumptuous (you presume that Orion is making changes with no thought on how they impact other classes).

Where did you see there are changes for guards and wardens coming at the same time? If you didn't see it anywhere(I sure didn't and man have I been watching) then that's based on no concrete info, without even the "quick blurb in a blog post"

The main purpose of his post was a warning really, saying don't get too comfortable/excited about being able to main tank raids as effectively or more effectively than a guard or a warden. The rest of his post was what orion wanted: feedback. Zaestro gave his feedback from the perspective of a tank and even for the shield champs in there.

(holy ???? did I just defend zaestro?)

[Zaestro]

Where did you see there are changes for guards and wardens coming at the same time? If you didn't see it anywhere(I sure didn't and man have I been watching) then that's based on no concrete info, without even the "quick blurb in a blog post"

The main purpose of his post was a warning really, saying don't get too comfortable/excited about being able to main tank raids as effectively or more effectively than a guard or a warden. The rest of his post was what orion wanted: feedback. Zaestro gave his feedback from the perspective of a tank and even for the shield champs in there.

(holy ???? did I just defend zaestro?)

I think you did, and I thank you for "allowing" me the courtesy to weigh in -- which is all that anyone else is really doing at this point as well...my "voice" just as valid, whether people agree with my viewpoint or not.

[Artheth]

I understand everyone is concerned because they would want their class role to be obvious and necessary.

However the current state of Glory makes us the worst possible tank in the game. I have heard people (new to the game, yes, but still) laugh at the idea of a champion tanking GS. And looking at what is available, it is actually laughable sometimes if you compare it to having a warden or guardian, but then painfully necessary in the new servers where groups form up and you end up seeing "need tank & healz" over, and over, and over again because people have rolled other classes much more.

I agree with Vallik about the guardians, they can now dish out good DPS, and anyone who thinks we champs could ever pose a threat to Wardens... well, whose quote was it? "I'm a Warden. I AM a small fellowship" pretty much sums it up :P

I understand the concerns over shieldless tanking both in the stuff we are losing and the dps tanking risk we pose, but as it is now even with the shield it takes a lot of skill from the champ and from the others to get through something as simple as NC. Let's be honest and recognize not everyone is a great and fantastic champion, runekeeper, hunter, etc, and finding 3 who are at such a level is more challenging than anything else (again, new servers, people learning stuff) This doesn't mean you carter for the lowest common denominator, but the game is intended to be fun and there are some twitches to the class that are off-putting since the champion can only learn them by being given a chance, and other classes don't wanna waste time doing that and cross it off as "not possible" (back to GS example)

In short: champs need the fervor healing penalty revisited to account for aoe and dot damages at high levels. we also need our tanking stance revisited to make us a desirable tank. Not the "most desirable" tank, but a desirable tank that can actually hold some aggro in glory when our fellows are dps monsters. Just like we are a desirable dps when the hunter is the most desirable dps. I'm sure the devs are well aware of class balances.

ps. cooldowns!

[Zaestro]

I think that a tanking class that fully traits for DPS should be inferior at tanking to an off-tank class that fully traits for tanking. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with making champ tanking be built primarily on doing damage and using particular skills/rotations, while you seem to think there is.

There is plenty wrong if a class' secondary role becomes preferred over another class operating in its main function...and I am addressing myself to tank traited guards and wards, not OP or dps traited tanks being left behind. That is what is primarily at risk here.

Moreover, since the content almost universally is designed to be completed efficiently by "moah dps",,,an off-tank being encouraged to "tank" by doing more dps, while the main tanking classes instead have already reduced dps when tanking...you are just asking for a repeat of Moria.

Finally, for two classes and "main" tanks to be required to use a shield for maximum defenses, but to potentially have an "off tank" achieve the same level of defense while equipping instead and managing full dps while dual wielding...is inherently imbalanced, irrespective of every other issue.

When guards can go into OP stance and dual wield and have the equivalent crit defense and whatever other defensive boosts dual wielding glory champs may get, then I won't be concerned. For wardens, I guess we'll have to "give" them a javelin heartseeker, pledge and engage to accommodate.

IMO, its all nonsense, looking to make people happy in the short term, but losing sight of balance and longterm longevity of class roles. As we know, most people desire what is best for themselves from a selfish perspective, not as to what is "fair" to others differently situated, or even from a broader perspective of class balance as a whole...maybe what would ultimately be "better" even for them given enough time and if the overall "health" of the game is considered.

If things continue to go on in this direction (this potential adjustment and other things I have heard snippets of and some already activated), the game will be eventually broken imo. Maybe not today/tomorrow/this adjustment...but eventually it will...too much mixing and cross-awarding of unneeded "wants" rather than "needs," confusing of roles and properly designated class limitations and areas of superiority (and intentional inferiority), has been the death knell of prior MMO's and other game types.

Just don't do it.

[Zaestro]

I understand everyone is concerned because they would want their class role to be obvious and necessary.

However the current state of Glory makes us the worst possible tank in the game. I have heard people (new to the game, yes, but still) laugh at the idea of a champion tanking GS. And looking at what is available, it is actually laughable sometimes if you compare it to having a warden or guardian, but then painfully necessary in the new servers where groups form up and you end up seeing "need tank & healz" over, and over, and over again because people have rolled other classes much more.

I agree with Vallik about the guardians, they can now dish out good DPS, and anyone who thinks we champs could ever pose a threat to Wardens... well, whose quote was it? "I'm a Warden. I AM a small fellowship" pretty much sums it up :P

I understand the concerns over shieldless tanking both in the stuff we are losing and the dps tanking risk we pose, but as it is now even with the shield it takes a lot of skill from the champ and from the others to get through something as simple as NC. Let's be honest and recognize not everyone is a great and fantastic champion, runekeeper, hunter, etc, and finding 3 who are at such a level is more challenging than anything else (again, new servers, people learning stuff) This doesn't mean you carter for the lowest common denominator, but the game is intended to be fun and there are some twitches to the class that are off-putting since the champion can only learn them by being given a chance, and other classes don't wanna waste time doing that and cross it off as "not possible" (back to GS example)

In short: champs need the fervor healing penalty revisited to account for aoe and dot damages at high levels. we also need our tanking stance revisited to make us a desirable tank. Not the "most desirable" tank, but a desirable tank that can actually hold some aggro in glory when our fellows are dps monsters. Just like we are a desirable dps when the hunter is the most desirable dps. I'm sure the devs are well aware of class balances.

ps. cooldowns!

I agree with much of this...glory needs more aggro control...not dps to supplant other "main tanks." I will say that a champ SHOULD be less desireable as a tank than a guard or warden...that is OUR primary role, not a champs...but this does not mean that champs shoudl be bad at it, and so aggro control needs work...not a game-changing creation of fancy that will more likely than not have ramifications that will NOT be carefully thought out.

To those expressing such faith in alleged "care" and attention to class balance: are we actually playing the same game and have we been observing the same class adjustments over the years?

[Feybobiam]

Zaestro, you and I both know this is not about keeping anyone down or trying to silence specific classes on specific forums. Don't play the martyr, all that does in this case is make something out to be something that it isn't. Instead, slow down for a second, here.

I'm with you, man. I hear you. I totally agree that if done wrong, this could be a disaster, and on more than just one front. However, know that Orion is not only smart, but promised a lot more details would be coming, in this very thread even. Right now he's dropping us breadcrumbs to stir up excitement and chatter, but this is not the type of excitement nor chatter we - as in the community as a whole - need to let procreate.

Look, there's nothing wrong with expressing your concerns, but the second you start making statements like the following,

I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields...

People need to recognize the huge balancing issues...

This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.

you're not only speaking FOR people, but injecting them with what you feel is accurate - which this post is not going to argue whether it is or isn't - and then following up by forcefeeding things like,

In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing).

as if that's what we all should expect and feel appreciable for, when it's not really tanking at all as much as it is the group putting up with inferiority, which nobody wants (which, when translated to different roles, is no different than the group putting up with a Guard who can't keep threat up on DPS Champs like back in Moria).

This is just a thread intended to pique our interests and keep communicative lines open with devs. I implore you, don't turn this into just another drama thread that gets locked.

Alright. I am not going to carry this any further. Express your concerns - unassumingly!!, which means not telling Devs or Champs what you think "needs" to happen or we're all doomed - all you like. I happily encourage it. I simply do not want baseless information or theories based on a few, for the purpose of hype and advertisement, intentionally vague teasers start causing a ruckus on the forums. That's it, the end, super simple. We have no idea what's coming next, let's not fill in the gaps with our own worries and instead bank on the benefit of the doubt of, yes, there is still loads of time left before Isengard, this is still all going to go into private beta testing, and of course, we still have no information but a few tantilizing tidbits.

Leave this thread for happyfun discussion with Orion and whoever else. If you want to discuss this further with me, please send me a PM. If you feel the need to carry this on in public, then I'll send you a PM. It's simply not fair to turn this thread into stupid bantering and, more importantly, a breeding ground for worry and chaos founded on next to nothing.

[Vallik]

The main purpose of his post was a warning really, saying don't get too comfortable/excited about being able to main tank raids as effectively or more effectively than a guard or a warden.

please quote me where anyone said that champs will be able to tank BETTER than a guard or warden?

they are all simply stating that Glory will be a perferred tanking stance over fervour ( which atm is honestly the superior tanking stance for 90% of content)

Primary tanks will still be Preferred but hopefully this will give GOOD champs a chance to tank what little of the content actually requires a main tank (i know they already can but still...)

If things continue to go on in this direction (this potential adjustment and other things I have heard snippets of and some already activated), the game will be eventually broken imo. Maybe not today/tomorrow/this adjustment...but eventually it will...too much mixing and cross-awarding of unneeded

Read: Squishy DPS, Squishy Healers, pylon tanks that do no DMG and GO!

[Zaestro]

Bob, my interest is not to banter with anyone but for the dev to hear my concerns while there may be time to avoid doing harm that i recognize a great potential for. I actually appreciate you at least acknowledging that you understand where I am coming from and also do not want to see harm done.

If he was seeking to drum up chatter and excitement by releasing incomplete info and intentionally vague allusions, this was also an excellent way to awaken fears over potentially far-reaching ramifications .

Please expect to see me continue to reply and monitor this thread/topic as more information may be made available, and ask you politely once again to please restrain from telling me how, where or what to post -- so long as I remain within the boundaries of the community guidelines. Thanks.

[olagaton3434]

I imagine the best way to differentiate the 3 stances would be to have the 3 stances directly change the skills being used.

For example,

When in Fervour stance, the stance makes our Brutal Strikes skill hit for 500/500/500, Raging Blades for 250/250, and none of the skills can add threat.

When in Ardour stance, the stance makes our Brutal Strikes skill hit for 250/250/250, Raging Blades for 500/500, and none of the skills can add threat.

When in Glory stance, the stance makes our Brutal Strikes skill hit for 100/100/100 + 200 threat per strike + 200 mitigation bonus per strike (or something like that), our Raging Blades for 100/100 + 200 threat per strike + 200 mitigation bonus per strike, and all of our skills follow the same pattern.

....something like that. That would be a clear-cut, pre-defined role for each, with the ability to follow the same combat rotation regardless of which stance you are in. Each skill would have a direct benefit based on the stance you choose.


Overall, I like the ideas so far in regards to stance changes. I may even finally feel that Fervour is balanced if the other stances make up for the hinderances of Fervour.

[MeriBear]

What if we made up for survivability in glory by modifying skills in our rotation to apply buffs/debuffs? For example...

Blade-wall becomes just that--we use our weapons in such a way that attacks cannot get through as easily, granting a temporary +x to parry rating, potentially beyond the 15% cap.

Brutal strikes and Blade-storm throw an enemy (or enemies) off-balance, applying a debuff--temporary -x to enemy crit rating. This would make up at least partially for our lowered crit defence.

Ferocious strikes is so overwhelming that it temporarily disarms opponents on a crit, effectively negating some of their damage for a short time.

Raging blade greatly increases threat and does heavy damage, but active defensive buffs are temporarily suppressed while the champion recovers. (Can't make things too easy!)

Rend--the champion delights in seeing her enemies bleed. Temporary +x to incoming healing rating.

I could go on, but these are just meant to be examples. What I would really like to see is our martial line making us viable tanks for tough content, without stepping on the toes of guards and wardens. I think the guard v warden topic persists because guards and wardens are so different that they are hard to compare, and I'd like champions to relate in a similar way--not better, not worse, just different.

[klover307]

in seeing her

i have a problem with this statement if you catch my drift

i do like your ideas though ;D

[ajaxjs]

This has been a scarily optimistic thread to read. Especially the part about all the things Glory would have to be changed by, to make up for not having a heavy shield. As if champs used their shields for anything except the occasional bizarre solo experiment.

[MikeA]

From reading Orion's blog, it looks to me that the core of the tanking changes could be a reduction of the cooldowns of Bracing Attack and Hedge to be about equal to Brutal and Clobber. That way you could use BA-HD in place of BR-CB or RS in a rotation, doing much less damage but getting the BA heal and Hedges buffs. This would probably require other changes to the skills as well, added threat, other short term defensive buffs.

[brasswire12]

Moreover, since the content almost universally is designed to be completed efficiently by "moah dps",,,an off-tank being encouraged to "tank" by doing more dps, while the main tanking classes instead have already reduced dps when tanking...you are just asking for a repeat of Moria.

Finally, for two classes and "main" tanks to be required to use a shield for maximum defenses, but to potentially have an "off tank" achieve the same level of defense while equipping instead and managing full dps while dual wielding...is inherently imbalanced, irrespective of every other issue.

I just don't see how you can come to these conclusions. Orion has said Fervour is good where it is and hopefully will not be changed much. In order for Glory to be balanced against Fervour, it will need to have some trade-offs for the extra aggro control, defenses, and healing it would receive. The most likely candidate to be traded off is some form of raw dps. So when you say things like "same level of defense while...managing full dps", I just think you're jumping to conclusions that are not warranted.

A Champ's "full dps" mode is Fervour. Glory won't be doing more (or even the same) dps than Fervour *and* get better defenses, healing, and aggro at the same time (unless Orion has some really crazy trick up his sleeve). When Orion talks about rotation tanking, I assume he means things like lowering the cooldown and increasing the healing on Bracing Attack so that you can work it into your rotation more to increase healing. I do not assume he means increasing raw dps output so that Champs can tank and dps at the same time with no decrease in effectiveness.