Why are Wardens expected to tank as well as guards?

[MorliX]

sigh, i do always love when I post the truths about wardens, because there is a forum-dweller with alot of forum rep that always gives me negative rep for telling the truth.

Its too bad when lol-wardens get upset about not being the best able to tank, DPS, or fill a vital role in the fellowship. hey, it would suck, but you picked the class. Its a sad day when handing out negative forum rep for true statements is allowed, but meh, not much you can do.

Yes, take away guardian's threat skills, and wardens are better at getting aggro.

Your logic is failed.

See how dumb that sounds?

i will laugh all day thinking about this.

I don't have the rep to neg anyone...so can;t speak for whoever bonked you...but I submit you might have caught a neg from two things you may not be thinking of...and neither is for posting alleged "truths" about wardens:

1) you are actually wrong, since wardens have always generated more aggro than guards...plainly and simply. Guards have a better force taunt or two (for now), and can manipulate PERCEIVED threat via threat stance and engage...but flag behind a wardens ability to genuinely generate threat in the first instance.

2) I believe it was your own lack of understanding the indicated disctinction, that then had you directing the next three phrases to a poster who did understand the distinction...and the obvious antagonostic style that you exhibited in so doing, that probably got you the rep-neg.

So...maybe be more civil in competing class forums, and actually post accurate info, and perhaps you will catch less flak.

PS - (who am I kidding...I have caught plenty of flak here too, even when trying to help guards...its a tough forum)

[Solyaris]

Valkyrielady you fail at the first rule when comparing classes; not playing them yourself.

If I want aggro, Ill have it, no mather how good the grd is. Maybe not the first 10sec, but after that 100% sure. Thats becouse wardens aggro tools is better then the grds, thats one of our strenghts.

When we got the combatanalysis tool, comparing numbers become much easier too. F.eks, the difference in mit. from top-notch grd/warden is about 10% (in blockstance/yellow traited vs blue-traited warden, not counting pledge), just check the numbers yourself. Also, a warden can, if he know his class, heal himself/fellowship for more dmg then his recieving. My numbers in durchest was as follows:
incomming dmg; 270k
outgoing healing; ~400k (or about 600HPS, 300HPS on fellowship, 300HPS on myself)

Just for the gags; normaly a good minstrel heal for 1000HPS +/- during an intense fight

Ive come across so many people like you two its disgusting, throwing out wild assumptions, without actualy checking out the numbers yourself. (saying wardens have bad corruptions removal just reveal your lack of knowledge)

[dhurrack]

try utilizing the phrase "lack of knowledge", I don't believe (unknowledge) is a bona fide word in the kings english... ;p

[Elrantiri]

I can easily see the problem for guardians as Wardens are epic for several jobs.
1. Their interrupt skills are awesome and can be fired in rapid succesion if needed (I usually have two goes at a Gorothul induction, so the chance of him finishing an induction is extremely low)
2. They can produce insane amounts of threat
3. They can remove corruptions like there's no tomorrow
4. They can heal a good bit

However, it is pretty much impossible to do all(or just 2-3 of them) these things while keeping the BPE buffs up, and along with the lower mitigation due to medium armor and smaller shield, I only see the very best of Wardens being better than the usual Guardian and on par with the best Guardians - which I think is fair, as Wardens are an "advanced" class while Guardians are "easy" according to the Character Creation site.

The only thing I (and others who have written in this thread) like to see changed is to let Wardens have some tool to aggrocopy, and the only reason for this is because some fights require it, e.g Durchest and Durins Bane, as they are impossible to handle with 2 Wardens (Grd+Wrd is perfectly fine). I dont mind that stuff is harder on the Warden, we picked an "advanced" class, but I do mind when it's right out impossible to tank certain fights when we are a tank class.

Getting this skill will allow Wardens to tank these places but the main difference will still be the difficulty, only the very best of Wardens are able to do all the gambits in time to get on par with most Guardians.

[teviko]

Teviko and Valkyrielady you fail at the first rule when comparing classes; not playing them yourself.

I am not attacking you, or anyone else. All I stated when I made that one particular post is that I read it (or thought I had) at some point. It was to bring up an interesting argument *for* the warden, not against. I wholly, believe the warden deserves to be an equal tank (as they are now). My concern is that Turbine is going to upscale the Warden far far above us in terms of *tanking* ability.

As you can see by my signature, I *do* play a Guardian. Go roll up a level 1 toon on Imladris, and ask who Rasha is, and many will say a durintootin good tank. And, as I posted above, I have been playing with the warden. I am working on leveling her. Check out my profile and check her out, she is level 43.

Before you go flaming me, check your information out. I love the Guard. I am interested in protecting the continued existence of the guard. I have no idea why you attack me as such. I found out, well before you came along, that Wardens did indeed have a corruption removal. I am not to that level on my warden yet, but again, that was in reference to a POST I HAD READ (or I thought I had read). Turns out I was wrong and was not afraid to admit as such.

I have not attacked, or flamed or fired off accussations at anyone. I would suggest you take a deep breath before you make a post, and then another one before you hit submit, and see if its something you'd want your own mother to read. Many a time, I have made replies and just let it go after having it all typed up, because it was to inflamatory and I don't want to be *that guy*.

So, before you accuse me of not playing a guard, or a warden. Actually check to see if I do. And if I didn't make it clear enough, my signature has me list as a 65 guardian. I dunno why my metalsmithing skills are listed as 3 & 3, but she is a full superior kindred metalsmith.

[Solyaris]

Taged the wrong person, sorry about that

[MorliX]

I wholly, believe the warden deserves to be an equal tank (as they are now). My concern is that Turbine is going to upscale the Warden far far above us in terms of *tanking* ability.

I have made replies and just let it go after having it all typed up, because it was to inflamatory and I don't want to be *that guy*.

Agreed 100% on your concern...and also would like to say that there has been FAR too much "unknowledge" being tossed around in this forum for a very long time...which I define as unverified personal beliefs being spouted as gospel, for various purposes of agenda from individual e-peen to class-based warfare / propaganda...both pro and con.

Oh...btw, I actually AM "that guy"...not even gonna include a winky face on that.

[Tarenius]

I wholly, believe the warden deserves to be an equal tank (as they are now). My concern is that Turbine is going to upscale the Warden far far above us in terms of *tanking* ability.

Except... they aren't equal. No matter what Wardens trying to justify their raid spot over a Guard (or similarly Guardians that don't play a Warden at endgame) tell you, wardens are NOT equal to guardians for a tanking raid spot. They have less base survivability, non-existent panic buttons, no reliable way to aggro swap or recover aggro after a death, no shield wall... etc. The only advantages a warden has over a guard for raid tanking is a) Higher DPS with basically the same survivability OR b) Conviction - the are mutually exclusive, since neither is particularly good without being specced in that trait line. They can definitely generate more threat, but that doesn't make any difference if Guardians can hold aggro just fine (which they can) - It'd be like saying 1 healing class is better than another because they can put out more healing per second, even if a large amount of that is over-healing. I suppose you could say corruption removal, but there aren't many fights where the volume of removals a Warden can put out are needed.

As I have said before, that isn't to say you can't do everything in the game with a Warden tank - you can - but Guardians just bring more to the table as raid tanks, especially when you are trying to figure out + learn fights.

We'll have to wait and see, but I doubt very much the upcoming Warden changes are going to make them better tanks than Guardians. Equal, perhaps - that would be a good thing.

[MorliX]

There is little question that AFTER the update, wardens will have MUCH higher defensive capacities than guards. This has been dealt with at length in this forum already. There have been several well-known warden players who raid with wardens as their mains, frequent posters of the warden forum...who have appeared here before you, and who are more able or willing to recognize the genuine causes for concern on the part of a large segment of the guardian community. We will indeed be seeing soon how this all works out in actuality.

[Malephor]

It'd be like saying 1 healing class is better than another because they can put out more healing per second, even if a large amount of that is over-healing.

So you prefer minstrels over RKs, I take it? :P

especially when you are trying to figure out + learn fights.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...inal-Tank-down

[Grendaran]

recover aggro after a death

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Never_Surrender

[Tarenius]

There is little question that AFTER the update, wardens will have MUCH higher defensive capacities than guards. This has been dealt with at length in this forum already. There have been several well-known warden players who raid with wardens as their mains, frequent posters of the warden forum...who have appeared here before you, and who are more able or willing to recognize the genuine causes for concern on the part of a large segment of the guardian community. We will indeed be seeing soon how this all works out in actuality.

You keep saying this, yet provide nothing to actually back it up. There are 2 reasons I can come up with you might think that:

1) Increase of BPE cap
2) Never Surrender

1) True, wardens will be able to stack block and evade reasonably high. Absolute maximum they can gain another 10% to each. It's impossible to reach that amount of evade with current gear, and while block can probably come close it's definitely not practical to keep all those buffs up all the time.

2) Awful compared to what guards have already. Yes, it gives wardens a single panic button, but one that if activated massively nerfs them for 5 minutes. Equivalent to something like: After using pledge, you cannot block for 5 minutes.

So you prefer minstrels over RKs, I take it? :P

No, not really, we use both.

It was just an example to show that more does not mean better if it isn't required.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...inal-Tank-down

Uhm... yeah... I'm not going to read a 5k word essay on Warden tanking. I have a Warden, I have a Guardian, I lead the raids in our kin... first hand info is far more useful than reading a wall of text. As a (lazy) student I read too many of those as it is.

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Never_Surrender

[Malephor]

1) True, wardens will be able to stack block and evade reasonably high. Absolute maximum they can gain another 10% to each. It's impossible to reach that amount of evade with current gear, and while block can probably come close it's definitely not practical to keep all those buffs up all the time.

Check out hte previous thread. In short, yes it is practical and doable to do so on warden. At lvl 65 the cap would be 8.5k, which I could reach on block/evade and maintain, certainly.

Also, as a student, you should know how to skim by now.

[MorliX]

Check out hte previous thread. In short, yes it is practical and doable to do so on warden. At lvl 65 the cap would be 8.5k, which I could reach on block/evade and maintain, certainly.

Also, as a student, you should know how to skim by now.

Exactly...just because you are "late to the show" tarenius...does not mean I am invited to replay what was an unenjoyable, lengthy and (at times) hostile thread.

Note also that I said "capacities"...by which I mean maximum potentials...and there is NO QUESTION that a warden has way higher defensive potentials in BPE than guards, and in self-heals. A guard will have at MOST a 10% mitigation advantage from heavy armor, while wardens may have as much 20%+ avoidance advantage, stun immunity and other things that were dealt with in that other thread.

You likely want to quibble about a particular player's ability to actually bring those capacities and potentials to bear at the same time (as you did already earlier in THIS thread)...but it does not change that the potentials exist and that they significantly exceed what maximum potentials and capacites a guard can ever have available even after the update.

As I already said...we had some experienced wardens appear and verify that there were others (like you) that were also posting and were underplaying how much of the wardens' capacities could be brought to bear. This thread itself has some posts indicating agreement that wardens will be "tougher" from several wardens.

The issue of how well comparatively one player or another can bring out the skills available to wardens to buff defenses, is a long standing topic of debate that has existed and continues in the warden forums from time to time. Some players of this advanced class clearly are able to get more out of it than others.

Unfortunately, no amount of "expert play" can possibly "milk out" similar defensive capacities for a guardian.

[Tarenius]

Check out hte previous thread. In short, yes it is practical and doable to do so on warden. At lvl 65 the cap would be 8.5k, which I could reach on block/evade and maintain, certainly.

Going by my own characters (none has any BPE rating legacies or gear, bar pocket - both classes have equal access to any relics/gear you would want, and pretty equal legacies if you wanted to use those):

Warden: 8.8k Block, 6.5k Evade, 4.3k Parry. (Where is that extra 2k evade coming from, without considering relics that are available to both classes?)

Guardian: 5k Block + 5%, 2.4k Evade, 4k Parry.

Those numbers don't tell the whole story though. The Guardian numbers are with 1 skill every 20 seconds, that takes perhaps 2 seconds to execute. The Warden numbers are with 1 skill per minute (5s to build + execute?), 3 skills every 20s (somewhere around 12s to build + execute WITH masteries) and 1 random buff from the shield builder. (Note: Numbers in Conservation, no Adroit or War-Cry).

So, it is possible to keep all those buffs up on a warden? Sure. Practical? Considering it takes over 1/2 of your time, No.

Also, as a student, you should know how to skim by now.

Indeed, I did have a very quick look. When I see things like Wardens have better AoE aggro, 50/50 specced RKs, continual air lore, (from what I read) ignoring crucial guard skills such as pledge/shield wall, I'm not going to bother reading the whole thing.

[Ruintheliel]

A guard will have at MOST a 10% mitigation advantage from heavy armor

I take it you didnt get a chance to read the leaked patch notes then. I wont repeat them, Graalx really ought to instead of me, but they might have significant impact on what I have quoted. Keywords: Different armour types...

I thought the same as you before I read them. I advice you to wait until you get more info on all the changes before you give your guardian a funeral. You might be right, you might be wrong...

[Tarenius]

You likely want to quibble about a particular player's ability to actually bring those capacities and potentials to bear at the same time (as you did already earlier in THIS thread)...but it does not change that the potentials exist and that they significantly exceed what maximum potentials and capacites a guard can ever have available even after the update.

Oh yes, because theory crafting is far more important than what occurs in practice.

This thread itself has some posts indicating agreement that wardens will be "tougher" from several wardens.

So what? I don't care what a "several wardens" think, I have one of my own and I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own conclusions. You can't say the same (putting "Warden" in your sig when it's level 15 doesn't count, sorry).

[MorliX]

Oh yes, because theory crafting is far more important than what occurs in practice.

So what? I don't care what a "several wardens" think, I have one of my own and I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own conclusions. You can't say the same (putting "Warden" in your sig when it's level 15 doesn't count, sorry).

mmmmhhmmmmmm...you have me convinced...lolz.

[Malephor]

Warden: 8.8k Block, 6.5k Evade, 4.3k Parry. (Where is that extra 2k evade coming from, without considering relics that are available to both classes?)

You are correct, I was misremembering my numbers, around 6.5k evade is correct.

That leaves us at around a 12% advantage for bpe, 17% if the guardian is in GT which most guards I know use.

Practical? Considering it takes over 1/2 of your time, No.

Practical, especially considering HoTs are getting extra pulses come the update? Yes. In short zergfest situations like trash it is less feasible, but its trash. My current rotation would only require adding DoW to it to reach the bpe numbers mentioned, and defensive strike which will be plenty easy with the change to master of the shield, and with the extra seconds added by the extra hot pulses, it is quite doable whilst holding aggro.

Indeed, I did have a very quick look. When I see things like Wardens have better AoE aggro, 50/50 specced RKs, continual air lore, (from what I read) ignoring crucial guard skills such as pledge/shield wall, I'm not going to bother reading the whole thing.

You misread it then. You, as a student, need some work on your skimming skills.

[MorliX]

I take it you didnt get a chance to read the leaked patch notes then. I wont repeat them, Graalx really ought to instead of me, but they might have significant impact on what I have quoted. Keywords: Different armour types...

I thought the same as you before I read them. I advice you to wait until you get more info on all the changes before you give your guardian a funeral. You might be right, you might be wrong...

That was dealt with in the prior threads as well...boiling dmg types into tactical...it will also effect wardens and guards equally and medium armor has the same set bonuses for damage type as does heavy...so actually combining these into tactical (both are getting a tactical damage mitigation skill/buff) is likely to ultimately diminish the current maximum 10% advantage that guards have only specific to common damage mitigation (by net effect across all mitigation).

Said before...say it again: guards will have < or = 10% extra mitigation ...while wardens will have 10%+...right up through 20%+ extra avoidance depending on whether the warden plays like tarenius or more like Malephor, Anewmachine or Horus, etc.

[Tarenius]

Practical, especially considering HoTs are getting extra pulses come the update? Yes. In short zergfest situations like trash it is less feasible, but its trash. My current rotation would only require adding DoW to it to reach the bpe numbers mentioned, and with the extra seconds added by the extra hot pulses, it is quite doable whilst holding aggro.

6.5k is including DoW (SM, DoW, WoS, DS, random Shield Bash buff).

You misread it then. You, as a student, need some work on your skimming skills.

Let's start by outlining the major strengths of each tank class relative to the other (given equivalent builds):

Guardians:
1. Stronger resistance to spike damage.
2. Several snap-aggro skills.

Wardens:
1. Stronger self-heals and group heals.
2. Better single-target andAoE threat generation; non-damaging threat leeches.

A typical diagnostic raid group might be: Guard, Warden (Shield), Champ, Hunter, Burg (full CC), Captain (usually HoH), LM (full CC), RK (50/50), Minstrel in the first 9 spots. Building for survivability, you would then add another RK (full heals) or Minstrel, and maybe a second Captain (HoH or LoM) and Champ (for survivable dps and off-tanking).

* LMs often trait The Ancient Master line in raids for the improved See All Ends. However, Continual Air Lore (despite the controversy) may provide more damage reduction, outgoing damage, and threat for your tank or champ in certain multi-mob or compound-damage fights.

Nah, I don't think I did. The 3rd one, proposing that going KoA for improved continual air lore could be better than full AM for damage reduction, is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start. Nice try though.

[Tarenius]

it will also effect wardens and guards equally and medium armor has the same set bonuses for damage type as does heavy...

Not true. Heavy has 2x the mitigation increase on set bonuses. Medium = Light. You would know that if you actually played the class you claim to know so much about, though.

[Malephor]

Nah, I don't think I did. The 3rd one, proposing that going KoA for improved continual air lore could be better than full AM for damage reduction, is so incredibly wrong I don't know where to start. Nice try though.

You read the non-relevant parts correctly, yes.

6.5k is including DoW (SM, DoW, WoS, DS, random Shield Bash buff).

THe rotation I currently use includes both SM, WoS, and the random shield bash buff obviously happens randomly. As I said, I would only need to add DoW and DS.

[Malephor]

Not true. Heavy has 2x the mitigation increase on set bonuses. Medium = Light. You would know that if you actually played the class you claim to know so much about, though.

From what I recall, that is only partially true, and sets like the mirk 3piece and loth 3piece give equal noncommon mits for wardens and guardians. I would have to double check to be certain though.

[Ruintheliel]

That was dealt with in the prior threads as well...boiling dmg types into tactical...it will also effect wardens and guards equally and medium armor has the same set bonuses for damage type as does heavy...so actually combining these into tactical (both are getting a tactical damage mitigation skill/buff) is likely to ultimately diminish the current maximum 10% advantage that guards have only specific to common damage mitigation (by net effect across all mitigation).

Said before...say it again: guards will have < or = 10% extra mitigation ...while wardens will have 10%+...right up through 20%+ extra avoidance depending on whether the warden plays like tarenius or more like Malephor, Anewmachine or Horus, etc.

I'm afraid I was talking about something wildly different. I dont want to get a ban or anything, so let's just say the patch notes cannot be interpreted in any other way but a positive way for guardians, alright? You will like it, trust me. Wardens wont like it, trust me.