So, no Guardian Dev Feedback?

[abrahamL]

Who will be working on the Guardian changes, assuming we might see some? It would be nice to see whats going on with them and to have some feedback on changes like the Champs are doing.

[geoboy]

Same over @ the warden forum. Lets see some love for the tanks.

[Assassin12]

Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.

[striverg]

Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.

.../signed

[CrusaderOfMetal]

Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.

They won't make the same mistake again.

Will they?

[Zaestro]

Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.

It really does sound very ominous...oh well...maybe it is time for me to reclaim "real life living" again.

[gakj3]

i only read the first post of the champion thread, so unless theres something new what is different about champs tanking in glory?

[Brayden]

Havent your heard champs will now be viable tanks with good dps time to reroll imo.

Overpower > Glory

[Assassin12]

Overpower > Glory

Glory is losing its damage reduction and champs dont have as many power problems in glory as guards do in OP.

[VersatileArcher]

Maybe fix the bleed issue (if it is one). Don't wanna say anything about the balance of things tho, to make other guards unpleased lol.

[Solien]

Maybe they will just admit the Guardian class was a mistake from the get-go and allow us a class change to Champs. Then we can stop hoping and praying that there's one or two bosses in each new raid which actually requires our presence.

[Zaestro]

Maybe they will just admit the Guardian class was a mistake from the get-go and allow us a class change to Champs. Then we can stop hoping and praying that there's one or two bosses in each new raid which actually requires our presence.

I feel you...I read the the notes from Orion the exact same way. Who knows if they have anything at all planned for us in the next 2 yrs or so (my semi-facetious estimate of when guards will see anything, if ever)...but after some movement in the right direction from SoM on -- on the heals of correcting some things after introducing what in all honesty was an unneeded direct competitor in wardens (sorry bro shield bearers...but it is truth) while ironically and simultaneously removing ANY need for either of these two head-to-head competitors in Moria...to now again and even more directly facilitating what sounds to be pure "dps tanking" -- by what was originally supposed to be only a "secondary" or "off-tank." I predict without reserve that champs are going to become the preferred "tank" again (just like moria), supplanting each of the already needlessly competing "mains" once more.

I dunno...as said, maybe it will just be time to just move on...not trying to be "chicken little"...but history doth tend to repeat itself...I will stick it out to see, but can tell you I will not have the patience to weather another negligently created situation like we suffered in Moria.

[Assassin12]

Maybe they will just admit the Guardian class was a mistake from the get-go and allow us a class change to Champs. Then we can stop hoping and praying that there's one or two bosses in each new raid which actually requires our presence.

Only if I get to stay a hobbit if so big YES as i only rolled the guard cause its the closest thing to a hobbit champion lol

[Crissaegrim]

I, however, won't give into the doom and gloom as quickly as that.

Orion's information to the Champions has only been announced, and the changes are flagged to be for the Expansion. That's a long time away -- a long enough time away that I'm still holding a steadfast belief that Guardians will have their own Dev attention given in a similar fashion.

[ANewMachine]

i only read the first post of the champion thread, so unless theres something new what is different about champs tanking in glory?

Orion's blog post says that Glory allows Champs to tank how they play - that is, with heavy-hitting, high DPS rotations. And somehow it allows them to do this and survive without using a shield. So, they get big survivability boosts and will, apparently, still do good damage. Depending on the magnitude of each (damage and survivability) they could easily overtake GRDs and WRDs as they currently stand. It will depend on the GRD/WRD updates how New Glory affects us, though.

[Starrywisdom]

Orion's blog post says that Glory allows Champs to tank how they play - that is, with heavy-hitting, high DPS rotations. And somehow it allows them to do this and survive without using a shield. So, they get big survivability boosts and will, apparently, still do good damage. Depending on the magnitude of each (damage and survivability) they could easily overtake GRDs and WRDs as they currently stand. It will depend on the GRD/WRD updates how New Glory affects us, though.

You completely negated some of the bigger variables; power, morale, hate generation abilities, damage mitigation/resistances, etc etc. Just because champ has the ability to 'tank' in some situations through damage does not mean they'll take the 'main tank role' in any form. Champ doesn't have the aggro generation ability or resistance/avoidances[or the morale pool] to take on larger encounters. The changes proposed for champs isn't to make them into a full-on tank, it's to make them a more solid tank for small man situations.

[ANewMachine]

You completely negated some of the bigger variables; power, morale, hate generation abilities, damage mitigation/resistances, etc etc. Just because champ has the ability to 'tank' in some situations through damage does not mean they'll take the 'main tank role' in any form. Champ doesn't have the aggro generation ability or resistance/avoidances[or the morale pool] to take on larger encounters. The changes proposed for champs isn't to make them into a full-on tank, it's to make them a more solid tank for small man situations.

We'll see about power. Morale and mitigation must be increased to sufficient levels to allow them to tank at all, so we can presume that'll be OK. And unless they drastically change Rising Ire, Champs will still be able to out-aggro every other class in the game.

[Brayden]

Maybe they will just admit the Guardian class was a mistake from the get-go and allow us a class change to Champs. Then we can stop hoping and praying that there's one or two bosses in each new raid which actually requires our presence.

What class is ever technically *required* in a raid?

I mean, I wouldn't want to do Ivar without Captains, but I wouldn't really want to do most fights without a Guard either.

[Solien]

What class is ever technically *required* in a raid?

I mean, I wouldn't want to do Ivar without Captains, but I wouldn't really want to do most fights without a Guard either.

Here's a quote from that thread in the Champ forums. If you've followed this forum for any length of time you've seen many posts by SaintBass:

Pending some info on the Guardian Updates, I may never play my Guard ever again. this is the kind of versatility that I always wanted in a melee class.

If a Champ can switch between good single target DPS, good AoE DPS, and good tanking simply by toggling stances, then Guardians and Wardens are reduced to hoping that there's one or two boss fights in each new raid where Champ tanking won't be good enough. You've already got people Champ tanking nearly all of OD (tier 2 HM's).

[abrahamL]

OK since they are mentioning glory mode over there lets all go over there and crash that thread (without being negative) and see if we can get a response about how that a. affects guardians, and b. what changes they will be doing to us to compensate.. knowing when that takes place would be nice as well...

[gakj3]

where were all the "im never going to play my guard again" guards when champs could fervor tank anything and everything, even blind one hard mode?

yawn lol

[Zaestro]

where were all the "im never going to play my guard again" guards when champs could fervor tank anything and everything, even blind one hard mode?

yawn lol

They were rolling champs or were sidelined entirely begging for spots.

If you were not around in Moria when guards were shunned for groups, or have just forgotten what it was like...it sounds like you may get an unfortunate wake-up call in this respect, come the next champ update.

It will be interesting to hear, if this does evolve as badly as it sounds it could, whether people in this forum will still be "yawing" then...those guards who don't actually have champs as their mains on other servers, anyway.

[scrubmonkey]

Here's a quote from that thread in the Champ forums. If you've followed this forum for any length of time you've seen many posts by SaintBass:



If a Champ can switch between good single target DPS, good AoE DPS, and good tanking simply by toggling stances, then Guardians and Wardens are reduced to hoping that there's one or two boss fights in each new raid where Champ tanking won't be good enough. You've already got people Champ tanking nearly all of OD (tier 2 HM's).

*Shrug* So, in the absence of any numbers or specifics in that thread, one forum goer says that he won't play his guard anymore, and now the sky is falling? Where does it say that changing stances to glory will make a champ a full tank? Trait lines still exist.

Personally, barring some pretty titanic changes to Glory, I will always prefer tanking on my Guard than I will on my champ simply because a guard plays much more fluidly in a tanking role than a champ does. That's not even talking about the better survivability, better cooldowns, and greater range of tools that my guard has it his disposal.

As long as Orion is doing the updates for both classes, I have very little worry about the future of guards.

[Zaestro]

As long as Orion is doing the updates for both classes, I have very little worry about the future of guards.

Unless something has changed...herein lies your mistake: Graal does guards...Orion does champs and wards.

Duplicate post I made in champ forum:

I think you should have kept the shield give us a few new threat increases for single targets only. A couple new skills and traits to mix the entire Glory up a bit. I say single target because we are an off tank, main tank is the guard and wardens job. The area of a high DPS Glory off-tank I think will be OP and cause a few problems. In the end resulting in nerfs such as Fervour has received in the past. A revamp on a character can be a great thing but changing too many things sometimes can also spell disaster.

I agree with this 100%.

I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.

This change will likely also do damage to those who already DO take advantage of what a champ can do with a shield now...approaching warden levels in soloability...likely limiting the avoidance and mitigation builds and soloing survivability for things that can't just be dps'd down. There are things that "even" a guard must be tank traited and max self-healing to kill, that just can't be beaten through and down in OP stance -- and I suspect this analysis would apply to the "new" glory champs.

Either the shieldless glory tank would be "weak" -- and since this proposal seems to cater to "champs are uber" thinking...I doubt this will be intended...or it would have to be envisioned that they will achieve some unwarranted levels of defensive buff, that will consequently jolt them way past the capabilities of guards and wards (who can't dual wield and must use shields to achieve these defensive abilities).

Moreover...if as an alternate to gaining "magical" crit defense and avoidances, etc., from the imagined ethers of traits absent shields, etc., champs could end up with some kind "healing factor" applied...think this was vaguely alluded to as well...this would then be encroaching equally improperly onto warden territory.

The only actually "reasonable" potential for this meandering shieldless glory tank proposition I can see (to other tanking classes) ...would then be very unfair to the current champs who enjoy shields and what already is great champ survivability: would be that a glory champ be greatly improved for holding aggro, but intentionally become significantly LESS defensive than they are at present. Hold before you flame...I will explain:

Have a threat over time reduction to fervour champs...allow them to still dangerously (to themselves) pull aggro initially and with incoming healing yet nerfed for stance (or even more nerfed) potentially kill themselves fast....but as to the ability to continuously "tank" by fervour stance: apply then a ramping up of threat debuff or some such. This would end fervour tanking and encourage (virtually require) the claimed goal of having champs USE glory stance when MEANT to tank. Others have posited this and I think I also may have "read between the lines" into some of what Orion blogged, that he may be considering that fervour aggro would thus be somehow limited or reduced despite be initially "noticed."

In my estimation, to avoid the other prospect of the glory champ becoming "too uber", it would have to intentionally KEEP the lowered crit defense and armor reduction, necessitated and implied in dropping a shield (no magical stance buffing). In addition to gaining some signifcant aggro boosts via new skills or stance passives...glory stance, without the healing nerf of fervour, becomes far more sustainable and more easily healed, thus prefered for tanking 6-mans and as an off tank of adds, etc. (both for aggro and for healing without as much loss of dps). Capable OFF-TANKS, but still requiring more healing even in glory than would wardens and guards, due to the less defenses...this, so that wardens and guards are still preferred for endgame raids until things are on farm, etc.

That, imo, is the very definition and a properly encouraged use of glory stance for what has only ever been a secondary role and NON-MAIN tanking use of champ -- which is what a champ is, was and always should be. Viable...but NOT optimal as a tank.

I fully expect people will NOT accept being less than "optimal," even in a secondary roll...but please advise as to what guards and wardens would then be optimal for...behind champs in dps in our secondary roles...and at serious jeopardy in main tanking unless champ tanks with their greater dps are then made WEAKER defensively, by intention.

Anything OTHER than this -- or preferable to ALL of us imo (guards, wards and current shield-using champs)...just some milder tweaks to the current tanking status quo -- is going to break tanking. Champs are better at single target dps...better at AoE dps...and if still rocking high dps, double wielding and matching crit defense, armor and potentially morale (people asking for 5 per point of vit in this thread, mind you) while in glory...why will anyone play a guard ??? Is this desired by the devs,and not just champ fanboi's,,,really??...w'tf!

I already KNOW this will not be satisfactory to the 'excited' champs already positing requisite major crit defense and armor buffs magically working into the "new" glory stance without shields, but people need to get over the knee-jerk excitement of having more dps and double wielding and/or 2hnding glory with increased dps and potentially defenses, and look at the bigger picture. People need to recognize the huge balancing issues, and how this will be a monumental step backward to a time and place that tanking WAS truly broken...once you push past the simplistic "fun" and surface appeal, and give a broader and more critical analysis.

This is a big mistake Orion...and I urge a correction and "doh" palm to the skull moment to strike you sooner rather than later, before people inexorably get worked up over a BAD prospect, that diverging from it later will be that much more difficult.

Fun thought conceptually...rife with too many potentially game breaking (as far as tanking anyway) and terrible ramifications for implementation.

[Jaunt]

Your tirade is basically structured as follows:

1) Champions will be better tanks than Guardians.
2) If Champions are better tanks than Guardians, but the game paradigm stays otherwise unaltered, then <over nine thousand bad things happen>

On the other hand, we don't know that champs will tank equally while putting out better dps, and we also don't know what's in store for guardians. They might turn our shield into an ST DPS carnage machine for all we know. The only piece of circumstantial evidence you have for your premise is that Hakai sucked at balancing guardians and champs. There's no data about the glory changes other than there's no more shield, and no more stance damage reduction. I could go over there and post in the thread that I want champs to have a 120 second stun along with the 5 morale per vit, but I'm willing to give you any odds you'd bet on that I won't get it.