Dear Orion: Warden Issues in general with early ROI.

[MashtaJurioz]

I think you know that the general warden community is rather unhappy right now. I've have been following the forums in the warden related area and reading your posts (you're very polite btw). I have avoided posting opinion and memorials because

Outside of the technical issues of the warden and combat. Right now, Turbine is selling an under-powered class and inferior gaming experience to new-comers as well as to those who choose to play the warden in terms of PVE multiplayer and PvMP multiplayer and here is why. As you read my argument, if you read it, I'd like you to relate to this statement.

These are the facts, Orion, I'm confident that you know this.

The general belief is that the warden is a second-rate tank because:

Medium Armour - Cannot be changed but this is "made-up" by heals and decent B/P/E.

Finesse - The warden loses a lot of mitigation due to the opponent's ability to penetrate our defences.

Self-Healing - Being fixed but the anticipation of healing scaling (the MAIN trait - The centerpiece of our tanking is not working) was not considered pre-ROI.

Morale Leeching - Still exists great. No longer efficient compared to MoM except for AoE threat. I ask again, where is the developer who is considering what position the warden will have post-ROI? This is a form of self-healing! Which does not exist!

Yellow/Fist Line class traits - Very much undesirable. I remember vaguely that the developer diary for the warden stated that this is the line that will focus on morale leeching gambits. Unfortunately, the morale leeches are for level 60/65 combat.

Conviction Gambit - our saviour. The pride of our long list of gambits. From the arsenal of our ultimate 5-icon gambits. No longer powerful due to the lack of heals it outputs due to scaling.

Combat run speed - Champions have it, guardians have it, captains have it. They wear heavy armour - way more mitigation. Yet they can escape easier?

Critical defence- Critical chance maxes out at 25% right? There is more damage to be absorbed there.

Out-dated Legacies - Yes! There are so many outdated legacies that were not considered when developing ROI! I can name them for you.

Forced March power penalty - This feels like a legacy that was made by a developer that ran out of ideas.

ALL block, parry, evade legacies are made "inefficient" and undesirable for those who are fighting bosses and players with finesse!

Dark before dawn power return - A rarely used gambit thus a rarely used legacy. Don't point out that you use it everyday because compared to other amount of times you've used other gambits, it is rarely used.

New tactical mitigation shield gambit does not have a legacy to improve it - up to developer but it makes sense since almost all of our tanking gambits have a legacy for them.

Examples - Dance of war evade, Shield mastery block rating, healing gambits percentage increase which include safeguard, celebration of skill, restoration and conviction.

Bugs

Numerous bugs with the warden class - Yes, i understand that coding is difficult and perfection is impossible, but there is a long list and as I think of them, the more unsatisfactory the list becomes.

1) Never Surrender Bleeding to death. The single panic button skill we have to be beaten unintentionally by fellow PvPers and badluck in instance.
2) Never Surrender 5 minute de-buff instead of the planned 2 minute.
3) Critical Defence bonus in "determination" stance does not exist.
4) Tool-tip misconceptions.
5) FX bugs including threat FX and Double-Gambit builder animations.
6) Tactical mitigation/Stun immunity shield gambit that is supposed to add to our tactical mitigation does not.

That is one buggy class that did not receive the full ROI package of levelling up. It's just gimped.


Orion, this post was created in reaction to the disappointing list of changes and "band-aids" coming to the warden in update 5.

We have all put our confidence you, the developers of the warden, to make sure that things stay the same if not for the better. I know many wardens out there are imploring you to do more than what is upcoming in update 5.

Bottomline is that things are getting desperate for this class.

My advice, albeit unprofessional, is to not be afraid to give players of the warden to have strong increase in the effectiveness of certain play styles. Let us specialize, let us choose stats over the other stats, let us be strong in one of the warden aspects. Whether it'd be self-healing, avoidances, massive morale and mitigations, or a balanced build.

If finesse is destroying us - have defensive finesse. Are we DPS classes? Why should we have a DPS stat? We want DEFENSIVE stats to counter offensive stats. Because we do not have a defensive stat for finesse I suppose you can call us defenceless?

Tie might to self healing! - It can have a curve, it can take a ton of might to get strong but the fact is - stats balance out because you can only equip a certain amount of gear.

The community is not asking for a band-aid and slight buffs. We want every single known issue fixed and with update 5, I do not feel confident that Turbine developers are doing this. Don't delay things to update 6, get it sorted.

[MidnightTempest]

This post needs to be read by Turbine.

I feel so frustrated playing warden, warden is my main character and if this keeps up I'm moving to a new game where the developer actually listens to the community and attempts to balance out classes.

[Chanah]

Right idea, wrong party. This is the letter you need to send to Turbine when you cancel your subscription/leave the game (whichever or both if applicable), and they give you the 'why?' exit survey.

If they no longer do that, then after you've cancelled your sub/left, you send it to them by way of their support page.

If it was within Orion's power to fix us sooner than the (I'm starting to think of it as mythical) U6, he'd do it. It isn't. The decision is made much higher up the management chain. One of Turbine's top executives made a rather revealing speech about the direction of the company - basically saying that they can do anything and people will complain but not leave because the game is so awesome. Nobody's done a transcript, but it's here: http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...3/episode-78a/ - you need to listen to the full audio, lengthy, but revealing about Turbine's business policies. I'd argue that things like putting Lone-lands on sale the week before they made it free for all, the RoI marketing fiasco, and - look now - a store sale on slayer deed accelerators for only 1300 points - negate various claims to ethics in the business. And bringing it back home, breaking wardens, not listening to the beta feedback, and deciding our fix could wait six or eight months is right up there, too. I'm sure there are many other things you can think of.

The speech was a sign of things to come. They've got even worse since then.

[Burgundus]

Well I put my 2 cents in on my cancelled subscription. I suppose people cancelling is the only way that they'll notice.

At least I can still run around and gather resources as f2p. Maybe I'll support the company again once they make changes.

Burg

[Mercuro]

Well I put my 2 cents in on my cancelled subscription. I suppose people cancelling is the only way that they'll notice.

At least I can still run around and gather resources as f2p. Maybe I'll support the company again once they make changes.

exactly what I did. Clearly voicing our opinion didn't work so far and I don't expect to change anytime soon.

[Orion]

Self-Healing - Being fixed but the anticipation of healing scaling (the MAIN trait - The centerpiece of our tanking is not working) was not considered pre-ROI.

Heals addressed in U5.

Morale Leeching - Still exists great. No longer efficient compared to MoM except for AoE threat. I ask again, where is the developer who is considering what position the warden will have post-ROI? This is a form of self-healing! Which does not exist!

Scaling not in U5. Should be in U6 - Should be!

Yellow/Fist Line class traits - Very much undesirable. I remember vaguely that the developer diary for the warden stated that this is the line that will focus on morale leeching gambits. Unfortunately, the morale leeches are for level 60/65 combat.

Dev diary mentioned that I wanted to make a more complete pass on Fist when time allowed. U6 may be that time.

Conviction Gambit - our saviour. The pride of our long list of gambits. From the arsenal of our ultimate 5-icon gambits. No longer powerful due to the lack of heals it outputs due to scaling.

See above mention of scaling in U5.

Combat run speed - Champions have it, guardians have it, captains have it. They wear heavy armour - way more mitigation. Yet they can escape easier?

This is non-starter, different classes are different.

Out-dated Legacies - Opinions!

I understand that folks have differing views on legacies.

Bugs

Numerous bugs with the warden class - Yes, i understand that coding is difficult and perfection is impossible, but there is a long list and as I think of them, the more unsatisfactory the list becomes.

1) Never Surrender Bleeding to death. The single panic button skill we have to be beaten unintentionally by fellow PvPers and badluck in instance.
2) Never Surrender 5 minute de-buff instead of the planned 2 minute.
3) Critical Defence bonus in "determination" stance does not exist.
4) Tool-tip misconceptions.
5) FX bugs including threat FX and Double-Gambit builder animations.
6) Tactical mitigation/Stun immunity shield gambit that is supposed to add to our tactical mitigation does not.

That is one buggy class that did not receive the full ROI package of levelling up. It's just gimped.

All issues listed above are fixed in U5.

If finesse is destroying us - have defensive finesse. Are we DPS classes? Why should we have a DPS stat? We want DEFENSIVE stats to counter offensive stats. Because we do not have a defensive stat for finesse I suppose you can call us defenceless?

Finesse is necessary to hit mobs, there may be a little misconception on how this works. It is not a DPS stat it is a to-hit stat, very different. If you don't hit, you don't aggro...

Tie might to self healing! - It can have a curve, it can take a ton of might to get strong but the fact is - stats balance out because you can only equip a certain amount of gear.

Also in U5.

The community is not asking for a band-aid and slight buffs. We want every single known issue fixed and with update 5, I do not feel confident that Turbine developers are doing this. Don't delay things to update 6, get it sorted.

U5 is pretty much set. U6 will be a larger set of changes.

I think, and I do see the posts here I read them everyday - all classes actually - but, I think th changes happening in U5 are more than band-aids and the number of issues to fixes raised in this post should identify that as true.

[MashtaJurioz]

Finesse is necessary to hit mobs, there may be a little misconception on how this works. It is not a DPS stat it is a to-hit stat, very different. If you don't hit, you don't aggro...

I'm going to try convey my argument on finesse as a "DPS" stat as clearly as possible. Feel free to correct misconceptions.

B/P/E is a central stat to tanking classes. It is there to negate damage by applying a chance to negate completely or partially negate it.

Orion says, it is a "to-hit" stat. According to the the developer diary of finesse. " Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings. "

- This means that those tanks out there are not encouraged to focus on B/P/E.
- Focus on tactical and physical mitigation. This means wardens are at an immediate disadvantage because guardians (heavies) are just placed on top.
- Pre-ROI Wardens were considered good tanks because they had the ability to B/P/E. It helped a lot because a good warden knows which gambits help to tank more. (In terms of non-threat.)

Can you see what I'm saying here Orion? Finesse is taking too much out of the Warden in terms of tanking and PVPing.

Therefore, Finesse can be termed as a "DPS" stat (technically a to-hit stat) because it is directly related to a player's ability to deal damage to a class that relies on it's ability to resist and B/P/E any damage.

Here is the question: Is finesse intended to penetrate all of our defences in terms of B/P/E or was it only supposed to penetrate a portion of it?

Finesse has become a strong focus for all classes and as long as you have it, then even low damage magnitudes can be a problem due to their ability to consistently deal damage straight through our B/P/E and go directly into the realm of tactical/physical mitigation. Which is our last line of defense and morale pool.

Additionally, we know DPS and critical chance has been scaled to a much higher amount that scaled before. The warden has not scaled equally in terms of damage mitigation because:

- B/P/E increased.
- B/P/E reduction exists in the form of finesse.
- Critical chance increased thus making the warden's poor scaling of warden damage mitigation and tanking even more blatant

Finally, there is a lot of good work done in update 5 and warden development by you (Orion) and your team. It is still appreciated even though there is a lack of clear voicing in the warden community in that area.

Much appreciated for the feedback and reply.

[Ubrot]

Thanks for listening and respond to us, Orion.

I can imagine, that it is a harsh time for you. The Warden are in an bad spot without it being your fault, the class just no longer fit in the new basic mechanics of this game. But your are blamed by the community (not by all, but by some of the loud Part of it), but i am sure you will do your best to fix us, the revamp of the Champion-class was great.

I hope you have time to look a little deeper in the class before you revamp our tradelines.

An main issu is the Gambit-System IMO. It don´t feel "advanced" at the moment and we have some really useless Gambits here (mostly because they do basicly the same, like our 4 HoTs). I (and maybe just i) would love to see some of them changes to give us an "toolbox" of skills. Wardens shouldn´t be designed to just roll all B/P/E-Gambits and spam aggression and a HoT or two if possible (or the player should feel thats the Way the class should be played). A Warden should have an few nessassary Gambits and a lot of situation-Gambits, so an Warden has to choose wisely what he have to do with the little free time between the base-gambits. I don´t know if it even possible to create an system like this, if i am honest.

Other hand, fist and shield lines (blue and yellow) need clearer niches in the tanking role. I think an regeneration tank design and an avoidance tank design would fit most (one line make leeches and HoTs stronger; the other gives a lot of avoid and maybe some extra migation or crit defense), but there are also other ways, like making an fellowship tank line and an raiding tank line, but please don´t fix our migation problem within an trait line. It would just feel as we are forced to skill this way to do it right.

[Liltaro]

About in combat speed and legacies.

Heals addressed in U5.
This is non-starter, different classes are different.
I understand that folks have differing views on legacies.

Orion can you check few things?

One: legacy +% max power in forced march. IMO wins price "worthless legacy ever". Advanced class. We are winning fights with 400 power since 2008. We have even T-shirts with this statement

Two: Try to make solo/moors weapon. Check what choices we have with majors. Compare it to dps classes like champs, RKs, hunters. Next compare it to non-dpsers like minstrel, LM.

Three: If you can, check how many people have just a lot of stats instead of legacies.

[Pabo]

If you don't hit, you don't aggro...

I humbly disagree. Due to our rather extended possibilities to gain and keep aggro with our leech gambits such as DoW, Conviction and of course Aggression, I still prefer to wear gear with Tankstats instead of Finesse.
I guess this is one of our remaining advantages, considering the fact that we don't need to successfully hit to start our HoTs / BPE-Buffs either.

Since RoI I enjoy to dress up like a hillbilly with a frying pan and screaming "They took'r jeeeowbs!".
Hilarious and sad at once.

edit:

[MashtaJurioz]

OK guys I'm not going to post more ideas on how to fix us but feel like commenting on how I've perceived the attitude towards Orion and Turbine in general have changed........

Your post is of no relevance to the topic.

[Cebra]

Your post is of no relevance to the topic.

Neither is your response. Your OP also said nothing that wasn't already known, did I berate you for it? I've removed the message to prevent derailing.

[MashtaJurioz]

Neither is your response. Your OP also said nothing that wasn't already known, did I berate you for it? I've removed the message to prevent derailing.

That's not my issue. I read it expecting your post as response to what I posted. Instead you're upset that people are responding to the developers in the forums. If you dislike what is being posted, then does it not make sense to stop visiting the forums?

Secondly, I responded in short compared to your paragraph. Your points are not fair because even if its been suggested before doesn't mean you can tell people to stop posting. Which is what you are saying correct?

If you did not like the post, then I apologize.

Perhaps I made a larger post that is a collection of the rational and sensible suggestions made so far in the forums. I have certainly not suggested anything radical and is in-line with what people want out of the warden class. They are also suggestions that I believe are achievable in update 5.

[Sheilyn]

I think th changes happening in U5 are more than band-aids and the number of issues to fixes raised in this post should identify that as true.

Is that what you wish to think or what you truly believe?

There were a number of things mentioned in this thread that are not an "issue" but just bugs. The wrong Agressiontooltip, shieldtactics not giving tact. mit., the NS bleeding death, etc.

While I am happy that these are being fixed I just want to clarify: The points mentioned above are NOT issues that made us unable to tank - they are bugs. Bugs that should have been adressed in a hotfix some weeks after release not in a 4month major update.

To narrow it down: The only things you gave us to improve our tanking are scaled HoTs and 15%partial b/e/p. Ironically both of these "fixes" will NOT help at all at the beginning of a battle. (And this has been one of the biggest issues mentioned in all kinds of threads - guess you read them?)

Again I want to emphazise on the "gave". Bugfixes are not something you can count as a buff - they are the correction of mistakes your team made when programming RoI .... 4months after releasing it.

So unless there is something new in U5 that was not mentioned yet I stick with my opinion that we are getting some band-aids - not a much needed major buff.

[Cebra]

If you did not like the post, then I apologize.

My apologies too, just a bad day, in a bad month of a bad year. Thanks for your reply in my thread. One thing to note is that Update 5 changes are nailed down, nothing else will be added or addressed according to Orion. Update 5 Warden is essentially a band-aid/bug fix in the eyes of the community, nothing more than the metaphorical nail in our collective coffins.

[Liltaro]

My nightmare:
U5 first nail to our coffins. March 2012(!) - U6 with some unidentified minor tweeks and second nail.
But no problem. We are fine and viable tanks .
Sarcasm off.
Can't wait for Isengard raid. My bet: we will die on trash pulls. A lot.

[Erasluindor]

Hey Orion. Here is a thought. Defiant Challenge is a legendary trait. Its not very legendary. 5 seconds of force taunt and an animation thats ######edly long. not to mention how long it takes to build and power costs. How about we make that reflective damage more useful. say instead of 54 reflected damage it turns into 15% reflected damage for awhile? That would be a legendary trait worth using and help w our puny mitigation out at the same time! idc if the force taunt stays at 5 seconds since its worthless against aggression anyways.

[Priestetute]

Heals addressed in U5.



Scaling not in U5. Should be in U6 - Should be!



Dev diary mentioned that I wanted to make a more complete pass on Fist when time allowed. U6 may be that time.



See above mention of scaling in U5.



This is non-starter, different classes are different.



I understand that folks have differing views on legacies.



All issues listed above are fixed in U5.



Finesse is necessary to hit mobs, there may be a little misconception on how this works. It is not a DPS stat it is a to-hit stat, very different. If you don't hit, you don't aggro...



Also in U5.



U5 is pretty much set. U6 will be a larger set of changes.

I think, and I do see the posts here I read them everyday - all classes actually - but, I think th changes happening in U5 are more than band-aids and the number of issues to fixes raised in this post should identify that as true.

Will anything be done about the high missrate? It's silly that I can miss 20x in the process of beating something down with 600+ agility.

[nifrawen]

Just wanted to respond in support of all wardens. and to also cheer that someone (Orion) is in fact listening too! I sure hope something gets sorted soon!

[droid]

Finesse is necessary to hit mobs, there may be a little misconception on how this works. It is not a DPS stat it is a to-hit stat, very different. If you don't hit, you don't aggro...

Shame on you, a dev should know better...DPS doesnt just mean max numerical damage output per-hit (the way a lot of people use it synonmymously with "nuking"), it means Damage Per Second, which is [Damage Output] * [To-Hit]. To-hit is equally a part of DPS as max damage.

That being said, unless Finesse is changed so that it equally penalizes BPE and mitigations, or some other mechanism to penalize mitigations is introduced, its going to unduly affect BPE tanks (Wardens) more than it affects Mitigation tanks (Guards and heavies).

[MashtaJurioz]

Shame on you, a dev should know better...DPS doesnt just mean max numerical damage output per-hit (the way a lot of people use it synonmymously with "nuking"), it means Damage Per Second, which is [Damage Output] * [To-Hit]. To-hit is equally a part of DPS as max damage.

That being said, unless Finesse is changed so that it equally penalizes BPE and mitigations, or some other mechanism to penalize mitigations is introduced, its going to unduly affect BPE tanks (Wardens) more than it affects Mitigation tanks (Guards and heavies).

On top of that, if something new is introduced to lotro. It should affect all classes and players equally. This does not, it simply takes more out of the warden than it ever intended.

[Morgrimlotus]

Shame on you, a dev should know better...DPS doesnt just mean max numerical damage output per-hit (the way a lot of people use it synonmymously with "nuking"), it means Damage Per Second, which is [Damage Output] * [To-Hit]. To-hit is equally a part of DPS as max damage.

That being said, unless Finesse is changed so that it equally penalizes BPE and mitigations, or some other mechanism to penalize mitigations is introduced, its going to unduly affect BPE tanks (Wardens) more than it affects Mitigation tanks (Guards and heavies).

He (Orion) only saw it one way, that is why. He saw finesse as the "our" ability to hit, he didnt see this as "our opponent's" ability to hit us (opponent's finesse negating/reducing our bpe).

[Zed2]

I understand that folks have differing views on legacies.

So true... some Wardens believe you should replace some of the legacies on your weapon with Stat Legacies... other Wardens believe you should replace ALL of the legacies on your weapon with Stat Legacies.

I am curious to know what legacies on their weapon do Wardens actually like/keep. On mine, I kept Wall of Steel Parry Rating (but don't level it), Javelin Skills Range (mainly for soloing convenience), and Hampering Javelin Duration (could be useful for kiting while soloing but not too excited about this one). The other legacies I replaced with Might, Agility, and Vitality.

The threat legacies are pretty much useless... they didn't seem to help before RoI and now they are not necessary (I have no problem with threat now). The damage legacies would be nice if we actually did significant damage... I tried using the Mighty Blow Damage legacy for a while but it didn't seem to do much (perhaps that's just my build because my Offence Rating isn't particularly high).

I think the Javelin has several useful legacies but weapon legacies are meh.

[Chanah]

I like W0F positional for soloing. Other than that, I got nuthin....