15.2 Player music

[Emere]

Thank you everyone for the continued feedback.

We will have one more pass at this build which will go up on Bullroarer at the end of the week. This will have longer bagpipe notes to correct the cutoff bug and a couple more volume tweaks.

That is all we will be able to get in for this patch and I hope that all in all it is much better than the Live version currently is. However we will be looking into correcting the remaining odd notes for update 16, so rest assured we are not done yet and keep those bugs coming in so we dont miss them on our next pass.

~Bunnyhugs~ to you all for the hard work we know you have been putting into this. You guys have improved the beta build a great deal so far. I however must ask. Will this stay in beta until it is right or will it be going live? I am sure I don't speak for everyone but I for one, do not want to see it go live until it is right...or mostly right...
I posted some video links above showing considerable note loss while playing in a band and that surely needs to be fixed or the concerts will suffer once again.

[Orlor]

I agree. I am pleased that you are addressing the Bagpipe drone issue. However, just fixing that and a couple of vol levels does not address the issue of instruments being cut off in band pieces. If it is released live like that, then there is no point in playing in a band. Please do not release it live until that issue is fixed. The banjo-like strings on the lute and other stringed instruments may be annoying but they are not the most important thing to fix at the moment (In my opinion at least).

[Vyvyanne]

We believe that the dropped notes issue has been fixed or significantly reduced in the version that we will next put out to Bullroarer (late in the week as we are contending with a blizzard) We however can not test in house all the different ways you could be putting together a band with all the instruments and variety of size. We think part of this problem could be a limitation of the number of notes that can be played at one time. If we can get an idea of the number of instruments and types you are using when you see this bug we will have a better chance of confirming.

[SpiritusLOTRO]

We believe that the dropped notes issue has been fixed or significantly reduced in the version that we will next put out to Bullroarer (late in the week as we are contending with a blizzard) We however can not test in house all the different ways you could be putting together a band with all the instruments and variety of size. We think part of this problem could be a limitation of the number of notes that can be played at one time. If we can get an idea of the number of instruments and types you are using when you see this bug we will have a better chance of confirming.

I look forward to testing the new build on all fronts.

I'd also like to request that the development team look into changing the maxplayingsounds to 128 as standard on all clients. If possible, it would greatly increase the complexity of what is currently feasible from a practical standpoint. And, if it's just not going to happen for whatever reason, a clear no-go response would be appreciated.

I would also concur that the problem in the current beta build is likely based on the number of simultaneous sounds that are allowing to be played at one time. The question is what is causing such a restriction as compared to the live build? Hopefully all is well on the next build, but even so, I would still encourage changing the maxplayingsounds to 128 as standard on all clients.

Need verification on this. Maxnotes = 64 translates to 8 simultaneous chords of 3 notes. Yes?

The "maxplayingsounds" parameter is not intrinsically a "music system" function. It is a function of game sounds in general. So, if you have a running water sound file playing because you are next to a river, you are at one sound. If birds are chirping, you are at 2 sounds. If you use a vocal emote, you are at 3 sounds. If an orc grunts in range while you emote, 4 sounds, etc.

So, in the vast majority of regular play, the likelihood of getting anywhere near 64 simultaneous sounds is nearly impossible. The closest possibility would be perhaps a massive battle in the moors. But your graphics card is more likely to give out under that situation before 64 simultaneous sounds occur.

Now, IIRC, each instrument is capped at 6 simultaneous sounds. That includes sustain. So, assuming no other sounds are present, and you are attempting to pack as many notes into each instrument as possible, you can have 10 instruments playing 6 note chords, with an 11th playing a 4 note cord. However, that will vary depending on where you are playing, if there is a crowd making noise... etc. However, if you have a bunch of instruments playing quickly (think of an orchestral piece with tremolo strings or thrash metal) you can easily sound one note and have played another before the previous note is considered "complete." This is how you can get to the maxplayingsounds (64) cap very quickly without actually having 10+ instruments playing 6 note chords.

I hope that somewhat answers your question.

[Emere]

We believe that the dropped notes issue has been fixed or significantly reduced in the version that we will next put out to Bullroarer (late in the week as we are contending with a blizzard) We however can not test in house all the different ways you could be putting together a band with all the instruments and variety of size. We think part of this problem could be a limitation of the number of notes that can be played at one time. If we can get an idea of the number of instruments and types you are using when you see this bug we will have a better chance of confirming.

First off, let me say... We wish you all the best during that terrible weather and hope everyone stays safe and warm!

Okay....
Three lutes, one harp, one theorbo, and a bagpipe on the first song in the video. Six instruments total as shown here on Landroval on 1-24-2015 with no note loss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsjEAcxScW8
again...
Three lutes, one harp, one theorbo, and a bagpipe on the first song in the video. Six instruments total as shown here on Bullroarer on 1-24-2015 with note loss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZy8M8uEcXY

The person recording was the same for each video and they were done within a few minutes of each other. No settings were changed.
I have posted the three files used at our bands website which can be found here: http://w11.zetaboards.com/LesBeauxCh...ic/10940014/1/
I look forward to seeing if this is fixed as soon as the new build is released and will post again once I have


Oh yes, before I forget....BUNNY COSMETIC PETS!

[Ingleton]

I agree with Orlor, notes being cutoff/not played at all is a problem even in the live version right now.

maxplayingsounds=64 is simply not enough! Some of our compositions are note heavy and it truly, truly ruins the experience when notes are cut off.

There was a time we were able to manually change maxplayingsounds in the preferences file to 128 to resolve sound cutoff issues in one's own client - this only changed it for you the user, but it was a solution and it worked for anyone who needed/wanted this option. These days it is fruitless because the launcher or game (I know not which) resets it to 64 no matter how many times you try to set it to 128.

Surely it is possible (and hopefully not too much work) to give us this option/ability back?

If it is not possible to let the user define his own maxplayingsounds parameters in his preferences file for some reason, then please, I implore you, set it to 128 for EVERYBODY!

This is not the dark ages anymore - people threw away their 286sx PC's long ago! I'm pretty sure even a 5 year old machine with on-board sound can handle 128 maxplayingsounds...

[Lolorndinfey]

Need verification on this. Maxnotes = 64 translates to 8 simultaneous chords of 3 notes. Yes?

This is per instrument, and I thought that band pieces sound better because of the multiple chord possibilities and mixture of waveforms from each simultaneously played instrument? So the question becomes. Are any of the instrument parts exceeding 8 chords? What happens if you stripe half the chords out, and keep adding 2 chords at a time?

My suspicion is that the new samples are bigger in size, and that is influencing the initial playback as it caches. But it sounds like Vyvyanne's team has identified the problem. Fingers crossed!

[Lolorndinfey]

maxplayingsounds=64 is simply not enough!

I would caution increasing this too much. Since Turbine would probably set a higher priority on keeping lag down, increasing this has a direct impact on fps.

Maybe a compromise? 72? 80? just a few more notes so it's better, but a nominal decrease in fps.

So besides the 3 instruments that need to be more quiet, cowbell louder a notch. What's the reason for not pushing out U15.2 again? Tonal qualities? Notes in lute/flute/horn that sound different than LIVE? Turbine has already compromised and rolled back harp. It's never going to be perfect. but I find the new qualities and fidelity of the sound sample an improvement, not a step back. Sounds like they've listened to the 15.2 beta feedback and are attempting to address it through a blizzard no less. What's the award for gaming again? Someone's up for a nomination. heh

Are we forgetting too that this included resolving all the different octave problems with horm, clarinet? Doesn't U15.2 fix it so all instruments have the same octave note range?

The big question is will volumes be within 10% of LIVE, no updating re-mixing volumes necessary for current .abc files.

For me, the bagpipe and dropped notes fixes are on the table. I vote yes if all three addressed and that's a lot of timely work done.

[Swagman]

I would caution increasing this too much. Since Turbine would probably set a higher priority on keeping lag down, increasing this has a direct impact on fps.

Maybe a compromise? 72? 80? just a few more notes so it's better, but a nominal decrease in fps.

So besides the 3 instruments that need to be more quiet, cowbell louder a notch. What's the reason for not pushing out U15.2 again? Tonal qualities? Notes in lute/flute/horn that sound different than LIVE? Turbine has already compromised and rolled back harp. It's never going to be perfect. but I find the new qualities and fidelity of the sound sample an improvement, not a step back. Sounds like they've listened to the 15.2 beta feedback and are attempting to address it through a blizzard no less. What's the award for gaming again? Someone's up for a nomination. heh

Are we forgetting too that this included resolving all the different octave problems with horm, clarinet? Doesn't U15.2 fix it so all instruments have the same octave note range?

The big question is will volumes be within 10% of LIVE, no updating re-mixing volumes necessary for current .abc files.

For me, the bagpipe and dropped notes fixes are on the table. I vote yes if all three addressed and that's a lot of timely work done.

I agree, fix the dropped notes problem and I'll take the new music system. We'll probably have to learn to adjust for certain things just like we learned with the old system, but I'm willing.

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

I agree, fix the dropped notes problem and I'll take the new music system. We'll probably have to learn to adjust for certain things just like we learned with the old system, but I'm willing.

I'm fishing in the dark here .. but could it be that the new samples are actually stereo samples and thus using up 2 effective slots per tone instead of 1?

At least that would explain why songs seem to cut out earlier on Bullroarer while the system seems to work ok otherwise.

[Swagman]

I'm fishing in the dark here .. but could it be that the new samples are actually stereo samples and thus using up 2 effective slots per tone instead of 1?

At least that would explain why songs seem to cut out earlier on Bullroarer while the system seems to work ok otherwise.

*shrugs* I don't know Bruzo, I just transcribe midi's to ABC's, I have no clue what makes the system work hehe. The music system in Lotro is a godsend to a frustrated musical idiot like me, and the new system will make it even more amazing once the bugs are worked out.

[SpiritusLOTRO]

I would caution increasing this too much. Since Turbine would probably set a higher priority on keeping lag down, increasing this has a direct impact on fps.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt anyone outside of concert goers listening to a super saturated song will ever reach 64 simultaneous sounds. And cases where there is frame rate drop, it is usually the "floaty notes" that cause graphical lag well before any lag due to audio.

And, of course, that could be fixed by turning off the "floaty notes." But that is an issue for another day/build/patch.

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

We definitly need more testing, how much time would we have to check the newest changes before everything is rolled out?
Loosing notes on the instruments that fully work right now is not going to help us in any way and it'll be exactly the same as the last time.
I do not see how the system that is now on Bullroarer, even if it's slightly improved, can compete in music quality with the old system.

If anyone wants to demonstrate - please post a song for more than 4 musicians played on bull and live that actually sounds better with those modifications there.

So give us at least till U16, don't do it now!

The other thing: It's nice if ppl say they are willing to fix their own tunes, but saying that you force others to fix up to thousands of tunes - and the tunes of ppl who stopped playing will stay broken.

All these changes could be done keeping the volume balance between the instruments at what we have now, while still changing samples and pitches and thus not break the large archive of tens of thousands of abc files we had on fatlute.

[Siegfriedpf]

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Fix the dropped notes, or at least identify the issue and we can work around it until U16.

[Swagman]

The other thing: It's nice if ppl say they are willing to fix their own tunes, but saying that you force others to fix up to thousands of tunes - and the tunes of ppl who stopped playing will stay broken.

All these changes could be done keeping the volume balance between the instruments at what we have now, while still changing samples and pitches and thus not break the large archive of tens of thousands of abc files we had on fatlute.

Back on page two of this thread (I think) the Devs already informed us that we would have to make changes in our ABC files because when they changed the samples and pitch it changed the volumes of instruments. They said the only way to keep the old volume balance is to keep the old system. Or am I reading what they said wrong? Anyway I know nothing about how this stuff works and I know you do so maybe you can point out a way.

(Oh man, I just drive 'em. I don't know what makes 'em work- Oddball)

[Thurallor]

Here are Katiepie's videos, with the start times adjusted to match. You can open them in two separate windows and switch back and forth to compare.

Video 1: Maestro rendition

Video 2: New music system rendition

[Mellana]

I did some testing on Bullroarer today playing many songs in a band. Different setups, different types of music.

Me, too, I had this strange problem of missing notes sometimes. It becomes very obvious the moment the lead instrument misses some melody notes.
I tried to find a reason but couldn't - on live those songs are fine. As others said, it seems a limit of notes at a time is reached which is far beyond 64!

And I had some problems with short notes following each other rather fast. Sometimes they are played as triplets, sometimes some of them are just missing.
Especially flute has problems playing fast. It seems the tones themselves are a bit too long.
But it happened playing lute and harp, too. Those songs do work on live.

In the end I was very satisfied with the changes of wind instruments. They sound very well played together. Thank you very much for this!
Still I would like those flute notes already mentioned by spiritus here and by others to be changed.
Especially while playing a solo piece for flute they sound too different from the rest.

I am rather sad about harp being switched back to its live sound.
Alright, I missed the "new celtic" version.
But I was truly looking forward to a harp as soft and smooth as the old one but less "dark and muddy" in the low area. And maybe without this one "flapping" note and a bit stronger.
Right now on BR it's a mess - Lute and Theorbo have got more Volume than before while harp has been taken back to its volume on live (which is already rather low).

But my biggest sorrow atm is lute.
I like the new clear sound of it but I truly dislike those already mentioned banjo-like tones very much!
For me this is a nogo!
Many pieces I wrote rely on lead guitars (lutes) and with this new version they sound broken.
I won't play them while this lute version is current (which in fact means I won't play at all).

Like Emere (hey Fincin! ) and Orlor I'd prefer to wait till U16 hoping we all can help to improve the music system until then.
There is NO point in changing lots of song files to fit the U15.2 version knowing we will have to do it again once U16 is released!
Please do not release this version yet!

Mel (Smila)

[Edit]: I just saw Vyvyanne's request. I had this "missing notes" problem while playing 5 or 6 parts at a time, e.g. 2 lutes, 2 harps, theorbo and clar. Or 2 flutes, lute, harp and theorbo.
(No way of reaching 64 notes at a time).
I will have a closer look once I can log in again.

[diamond-tinidril]

I agree. I am pleased that you are addressing the Bagpipe drone issue. However, just fixing that and a couple of vol levels does not address the issue of instruments being cut off in band pieces. If it is released live like that, then there is no point in playing in a band. Please do not release it live until that issue is fixed. The banjo-like strings on the lute and other stringed instruments may be annoying but they are not the most important thing to fix at the moment (In my opinion at least).

I can tell you from experience on live with the exact same problem (as demonstrated in Fincin's videos) is primarily due to a limitation of the number of sound events allowed to play at one time.

Note 1: "sound events at one time" includes any sounds in the environment or from nearby players
Note 2: notice the character on the extreme right complains that theorbo and bagpipe are dropping notes, this is because they are farthest away from that character. In the video, whoever is doing the video [edit] may be on the other end (originally I thought I noticed a definite stereo effect with the sounds matching the visual, but a second listen seemed not so, hard to tell where the videographer is standing) and it is one or two (or more) of the lutes/harp that are missing the most notes. In my experience the most missing notes happened with instruments with the most rapid note firing or farthest away from me.

I experienced this problem on live for years. I could not figure out why I suddenly couldn't hear instruments that were not right next to me or were missing notes unless I turned off all other sounds (and even then I was dropping notes). I searched the forums, asked other players, nothing. Then after a particular update (a little over a year ago, I think) someone mentioned there being a setting in the preference.ini for adjusting the number of simultaneous sounds. When I checked this I found my setting was for only 16!! I have no idea how that got changed, but when I increased that number my problem was (mostly) solved! I set it up to 128, but found that when I went back into preference.ini it had been bumped down to 64. So apparently there is a hard cap on live at 64 sound events.

I would ask that the devs increase the hard cap to 128 with a default setting of 64 sound events. This would not only solve the dropped music notes, but also the "silent" cries and missing battle sounds I sometimes experience (still) when in groups.

[Emere]

I can tell you from experience on live with the exact same problem (as demonstrated in Fincin's videos) is primarily due to a limitation of the number of sound events allowed to play at one time.

Note 1: "sound events at one time" includes any sounds in the environment or from nearby players
Note 2: notice the character on the extreme right complains that theorbo and bagpipe are dropping notes, this is because they are farthest away from that character. In the video, whoever is doing the video [edit] may be on the other end (originally I thought I noticed a definite stereo effect with the sounds matching the visual, but a second listen seemed not so, hard to tell where the videographer is standing) and it is one or two (or more) of the lutes/harp that are missing the most notes. In my experience the most missing notes happened with instruments with the most rapid note firing or farthest away from me.

I experienced this problem on live for years. I could not figure out why I suddenly couldn't hear instruments that were not right next to me or were missing notes unless I turned off all other sounds (and even then I was dropping notes). I searched the forums, asked other players, nothing. Then after a particular update (a little over a year ago, I think) someone mentioned there being a setting in the preference.ini for adjusting the number of simultaneous sounds. When I checked this I found my setting was for only 16!! I have no idea how that got changed, but when I increased that number my problem was (mostly) solved! I set it up to 128, but found that when I went back into preference.ini it had been bumped down to 64. So apparently there is a hard cap on live at 64 sound events.

I would ask that the devs increase the hard cap to 128 with a default setting of 64 sound events. This would not only solve the dropped music notes, but also the "silent" cries and missing battle sounds I sometimes experience (still) when in groups.

Hiee Diamond! <3
My .ini defaults at 64 though I am constantly turning it up to 128. Anytime you make a change in your options it seems to default back down to 64. As for my video person, she was standing right in front of me in first person view
I too would love to see the default set to 128. That would be an awesome move I think!
~bunnypets!!!~

[SchorschiSchrumpf]

About the 64/128 samples question:

There is another thing to consider, which is the internal way the mixing is done. Too many samples added together may lead to clipping (the maximal amplitude can't be higher than a certain numerical value).
Typically (and I guess lotro is no exception there) you'd have 16-bit integers representing the sound-amplitudes internally and all the samples that are being played basically are added together.

Now .. considering you add up 64 samples and all of them are at like 50% of that maximal amplitude chances are quite high that you'll get over that maximal value (you may reach 32 x that maximal amplitude, but that's unlikely) - so it'll be cut off, or modified by the mixer (a.k.a. dynamically compressed) which will have an impact on how the mixture of the samples will sound.

So it's not just increasing the number of samples played, it also takes to lower all samples in volume to allow adding 128 together without exceeding that cap. So all in all there maybe perfectly good reasons for Turbine not wanting to set that number higher.

I think something like this is already happening on Bullroarer when you play chords of 6 tones on the theorbo because in general the volume is cranked up there.

I could show a picture where you can see those waveform-oscillations being cut off at the tips, but I dunno how to upload those into the forum here. Just repeat [C,/2G,/2C/2G/2c/2g/2] two times at +fff+ with all sliders at 1 (player music, and main slider) record with audacity and look at the waveform.
However there is a slim possibility that it's related to the recording settings - it shouldn't be the case but it'd be nice if someone else could verify that.