Update 17.

[siipperi]

Such as? I can think of a few places where I'd like to have content like that, but I don't think they necessarily require a first visit to those locations. I think 'In Their Absence' proved that we can put group content in older areas pretty successfully.

MoL

Paths of the dead was place where many hoped to get instance cluster, some still have hope for Mordor located classic instanced content. But as you said, best instances in lotro have been totally made up places and worked beautifully.

[bucko39]

unlike the classic ones, which I've done to death and am tired of (for they're not much fun, to me), unless my kinnies are having fun.

One could argue that if there are interesting, fun and dare I say it, "new" mechanics applied to those classic instances, they could be fun (again).
But if turning a crank, laying traps repeatedly, cutting rope, and building barricades is your idea of fun....to each their own

[Palenen]

I haven't seen a 12 man since before Isengard content. I have seen many six man's but I can say this, The class synergy game play is not what it used to be and majority players want to DPS and it doesn't matter what class. One recent six man we took a mini and said 'im running dps' and refused to change trees to heal. It was a face palm moment. Perhaps it's too difficult for them to keep an eye on everyone? Who knows. It did take skill and to stay on top of things. LM's too.

Due to the 'trees' game play and with other changes, I seriously doubt majority of players will play their classes as it used to be if they created raid designs of old. I don't believe players will run the content.

[Arnenna]

Such as? I can think of a few places where I'd like to have content like that, but I don't think they necessarily require a first visit to those locations. I think 'In Their Absence' proved that we can put group content in older areas pretty successfully.

MoL

Well I look forward to seeing those at some point later on then

Seriously though, I do have faith, and do see a LOTRO raid/instance clusters in our future. I am disappointed that MT is just a BB and doesn't incluse some instances - particularly that it is a BB mainly based on DW (which is the BB I hate the most out of all of them) - but I'll go with the flow. Hopefully that flow will branch into different directions in the future (Pelennor would be nice)

[siipperi]

Well, there will be EBs set in the Pelennor. Whether they'll do classic ones, too, remains to be seen. I *love* EBs, especially when and where those *other roles* shine, unlike the classic ones, which I've done to death and am tired of (for they're not much fun, to me), unless my kinnies are having fun.

So which ones? I can only think deeping wall where you really need any kind of BB roles. For healing soldiers our classes are better, traps arent necessary, just little helper and officer roles just allow you AFK mores while NPCs fight more effectively. Lastly vanguard that is only useful in pelargir 6man, that can be done without one even with 3 players...

I haven't seen a 12 man since before Isengard content. I have seen many six man's but I can say this, The class synergy game play is not what it used to be and majority players want to DPS and it doesn't matter what class. One recent six man we took a mini and said 'im running dps' and refused to change trees to heal. It was a face palm moment. Perhaps it's too difficult for them to keep an eye on everyone? Who knows. It did take skill and to stay on top of things. LM's too.

Due to the 'trees' game play and with other changes, I seriously doubt majority of players will play their classes as it used to be if they created raid designs of old. I don't believe players will run the content.

You are really clueless how people play, aren't you? Crushing majority of minstrels want to play healer and same on support classes they want to play support. Also that 6man was probably some glinghant or something where you dont need healer in the first place, wasn't it?

[djheydt]

Well I look forward to seeing those at some point later on then

Seriously though, I do have faith, and do see a LOTRO raid/instance clusters in our future. I am disappointed that MT is just a BB and doesn't incluse some instances - particularly that it is a BB mainly based on DW (which is the BB I hate the most out of all of them) - but I'll go with the flow. Hopefully that flow will branch into different directions in the future (Pelennor would be nice)

Idle question: what does DW stand for?

[AMDG93]

Well, there will be EBs set in the Pelennor. Whether they'll do classic ones, too, remains to be seen. I *love* EBs, especially when and where those *other roles* shine, unlike the classic ones, which I've done to death and am tired of (for they're not much fun, to me), unless my kinnies are having fun.

How can you love EB's when you have to wait like 5 minutes for a quest to pop in order for you to do something? Specifically talking about the Helms Deep EB's here not Pel which isn't as bad as you kinda have to do stuff. But the key point here to me is that there's no challenge at all in these EB's compared to the likes of when running ToO on level took you a few weeks, heck maybe even months to get a boss down on challenge mode.

The classic ones are boring because as the name suggests they are classics and have been out for years so you will have done to death.

Just my two cents, alas i dont think we will ever see raids again :/ Been hoping for too long and seen updates come and go so i find just dont expect to see a raid and then i wont be dissapointed

[OldMadeOfLions]

Paths of the dead was place where many hoped to get instance cluster...

We looked into a lot of different ways to handle the Paths of the Dead, including the possibility of having limited PvMP in there. Ultimately it didn't happen, but that doesn't mean we didn't consider it or research what it would take, and with the Ruthless Dead as an enemy type we're not limited to having something in there before Aragorn releases the Oath-breakers.

MoL

[Jillymala]

I have seen many six man's but I can say this, The class synergy game play is not what it used to be and majority players want to DPS and it doesn't matter what class. One recent six man we took a mini and said 'im running dps' and refused to change trees to heal. It was a face palm moment. Perhaps it's too difficult for them to keep an eye on everyone? Who knows. It did take skill and to stay on top of things. LM's too.

.

There is only one BB that requires heals and that's DW raid, with content like big battles they keep throwing at us and pushing people away from classic instancing/raids is it any wonder people only want to dps now? They don't NEED to know how to do anything else. It's very sad.

[cdq1958]

How can you love EB's when you have to wait like 5 minutes for a quest to pop in order for you to do something? Specifically talking about the Helms Deep EB's here not Pel which isn't as bad as you kinda have to do stuff. But the key point here to me is that there's no challenge at all in these EB's compared to the likes of when running ToO on level took you a few weeks, heck maybe even months to get a boss down on challenge mode.

The classic ones are boring because as the name suggests they are classics and have been out for years so you will have done to death.

Just my two cents, alas i dont think we will ever see raids again :/ Been hoping for too long and seen updates come and go so i find just dont expect to see a raid and then i wont be dissapointed

Hmm, maybe because I use my imagination and find things to check on or go get set up, for that's one of the challenges? [All instances and encounters are DPS races, of one kind or another.]

[siipperi]

Hmm, maybe because I use my imagination and find things to check on or go get set up, for that's one of the challenges? [All instances and encounters are DPS races, of one kind or another.]

Beautiful thing when we have to use our imagination in the friking game that should offer not only visuals but also compelling gameplay. If you have to use your imagination to some roleplaying bull that content is failed by a design.

[Palenen]

So which ones? I can only think deeping wall where you really need any kind of BB roles. For healing soldiers our classes are better, traps arent necessary, just little helper and officer roles just allow you AFK mores while NPCs fight more effectively. Lastly vanguard that is only useful in pelargir 6man, that can be done without one even with 3 players...



You are really clueless how people play, aren't you? Crushing majority of minstrels want to play healer and same on support classes they want to play support. Also that 6man was probably some glinghant or something where you dont need healer in the first place, wasn't it?

The minstrel was just an example. I mentioned 'majority of players' and 'doesn't matter what class'. It was an Isengard six man and not a skirmish. Please don't offer assuming thoughts in posts. I mean really, Why would the fellowship lead ask a minstrel to heal if it were glinghant? lol

[cdq1958]

Beautiful thing when we have to use our imagination in the friking game that should offer not only visuals but also compelling gameplay. If you have to use your imagination to some roleplaying bull that content is failed by a design.

What's compelling to you isn't compelling to me; and vice-versa. Oh, isn't this a Role-Playing Game, or is it only the combat role that counts?

[Arnenna]

Idle question: what does DW stand for?

Deeping Wall.

[CM-Amenophis]

But Aragorn already released the Oathbreakers.
I understand that you guys dont have Problems with Timtraveling (Erebor Raids), but id like to have more Timeline appropriate Raids. Except you give us something like a History Book where we "Read the Adventure of a Grp" and replay them.
But lets be straight. We all know that there HAVE TO wait a hairy Raid for us since somebody small and fat wounded her She's basicaly just waits for us to be killed.

[bucko39]

What's compelling to you isn't compelling to me; and vice-versa. Oh, isn't this a Role-Playing Game, or is it only the combat role that counts?

I'm not going to flame you cdq1958, because although we disagree on several points, I respect your opinion. We may play the game differently, but our love for Middle Earth is probably why we are in the game to begin with.

That said, if the "epic battle" requires a heavy dose of role playing just to make it interesting, I'm going to have to agree with siipperi on this one

[Imsoclastic]

Not at all. As designers, we pride ourselves on our ability to create content anywhere, and indeed, we've done it in the past: that's where Helegrod and the Rift and Ost Dunhoth came from, after all. If I was told I needed to make group content in a field in Rohan, you'd get group content in a field in Rohan (and, hopefully, it would be awesome. I'd need to think about it some.)

But my point on the stream was that there are places still to come that would need very *little* justification to make this sort of content there. As a fan of LotR, if I were looking at it from the outside, it would feel obvious. That's all.

MoL

Listen, there are some blunt statements that need to be made here. I understand that the story in LOTRO is a sacred thing to many people who play this game. I know that some people would be "outraged" if you came up with some raid where a balrog inserts itself in the battle of Pelennor Fields. I for one don't care about it, or enjoy the story aspect of ANY MMO. I think questing is the worst thing to happen to MMO's, and if it were up to me there would be no leveling, just end game content.

With that said, LOTRO is an MMO. Within the MMO genre, there are some standard expectations.
They are as follows:

1. At ANY given time, there needs to be a relevant, rewarding and challenging raid with several tiers to allow people to learn it at their skill level, and adjust appropriately. We see this with T1, T2 and T2C raid tiers.

2. There must be smaller-group instances to fill the gaps between raiding and allow new players to get geared for raids.

3. There must be filler content and extraneous daily quests for players to fill their time with.

4. There has to be a system of rewarding and meaningful character development to keep people interested.

5. PVP isn't standard in all MMO's, but if you're going to have it, you need to keep it balanced, fair, and fun.

LOTRO has fulfilled precisely NONE of these expectations since Helm's Deep released. Literally. Not. A. Single. One. We haven't had a single new challenging multi-boss raid in what, 2 years?

Now, I'm going to come from a development viewpoint here, being a programmer myself. The LOTRO team works with an outdated, god-awful engine that wasn't even good when Asheron's Call released back in the day. I'm sure it's not intuitive or easy to work with like modern game engines. I very highly doubt anything the dev team does is "drag and drop" like the Unity, Unreal 4, or Source engine. So I cut them a modicum of slack for that. They do what they can with the resources they have and the tools they're given.

That said, I've been CONSTANTLY baffled by the priorities the LOTRO team seems to maintain. This game has begun to cater more and more to casual players who sign on for a few hours a day, roleplay a little bit, buy some cosmetics, and then move on to something else. I mean no offense to people who enjoy things like that in the game, but you're not part of the end game community that gives people something to level up for and aspire to be a part of. You're not the ones populating the moors or Osgiliath and paying 15 dollars a month for VIP. So why are players like them being focused on in development? There are THOUSANDS of hours of quests, hundreds and hundreds of cosmetic items, and god knows what other aspects of the game us end game raiders/PvP'ers don't give half a cow about.

I've seen what the dev team is capable of. Ost Dunhoth at level 65 level cap was one of the GREATEST raids i've ever seen in an MMO. I'd go as far as to say I think it's actually the best. Tower of Orthanc was also fantastic once the initial bugs were ironed out. Rift, Helegrod, Dar Narbugud...the list of amazing raids this game has deep in its closet is incredible. So where is the game LOTRO used to be? I just don't get it.

Are you guys (the Dev Team) just not paying attention to any of us on here? Do you not care? Do you have a skewed philosophy that casual players who drop 20 dollars on cosmetics on time and quit are keeping your game alive more than people (like me) who have spent LITERALLY thousands of dollars on Subscriptions and store items to improve my characters?

I have a really hard time that any of you guys developing this content are proud of what you're doing. I just can't believe that after I've seen what you can create when you have direction and ambition. I hope at least a few of you take the time to listen to the genuine pleas of someone who longs for what LOTRO used to be.

[cdq1958]

I'm not going to flame you cdq1958, because although we disagree on several points, I respect your opinion. We may play the game differently, but our love for Middle Earth is probably why we are in the game to begin with.

That said, if the "epic battle" requires a heavy dose of role playing just to make it interesting, I'm going to have to agree with siipperi on this one

Thanks, bucko; and the feeling is mutual .
Why not use some imagination, though? Or is that just me :P?

[Arnenna]

What's compelling to you isn't compelling to me; and vice-versa. Oh, isn't this a Role-Playing Game, or is it only the combat role that counts?

There isn't much interesting going on though really. There are only so many times one can build, move, fix a barricade before it becomes extremely old hat. I'm not that clued up on Role Playing at the moment, but I'm sure it probably involves a lot more than what we get to do in BB's. For me, there is nothing remotely RP about my minstrel healing pieces of wood. She wants to heal warriors, not objects.

[cdq1958]

There isn't much interesting going on though really. There are only so many times one can build, move, fix a barricade before it becomes extremely old hat. I'm not that clued up on Role Playing at the moment, but I'm sure it probably involves a lot more than what we get to do in BB's. For me, there is nothing remotely RP about my minstrel healing pieces of wood. She wants to heal warriors, not objects.

Well, the same could be said of the combat roles, couldn't it? In those old wars, warriors were not very useful without people to feed them and supply them with weapons or repair things when needed.

[bucko39]

Listen, there are some blunt statements that need to be made here. I understand that the story in LOTRO is a sacred thing to many people who play this game. I know that some people would be "outraged" if you came up with some raid where a balrog inserts itself in the battle of Pelennor Fields. I for one don't care about it, or enjoy the story aspect of ANY MMO. I think questing is the worst thing to happen to MMO's, and if it were up to me there would be no leveling, just end game content.

With that said, LOTRO is an MMO. Within the MMO genre, there are some standard expectations.
They are as follows:

1. At ANY given time, there needs to be a relevant, rewarding and challenging raid with several tiers to allow people to learn it at their skill level, and adjust appropriately. We see this with T1, T2 and T2C raid tiers.

2. There must be smaller-group instances to fill the gaps between raiding and allow new players to get geared for raids.

3. There must be filler content and extraneous daily quests for players to fill their time with.

4. There has to be a system of rewarding and meaningful character development to keep people interested.

5. PVP isn't standard in all MMO's, but if you're going to have it, you need to keep it balanced, fair, and fun.

LOTRO has fulfilled precisely NONE of these expectations since Helm's Deep released. Literally. Not. A. Single. One. We haven't had a single new challenging multi-boss raid in what, 2 years?

Now, I'm going to come from a development viewpoint here, being a programmer myself. The LOTRO team works with an outdated, god-awful engine that wasn't even good when Asheron's Call released back in the day. I'm sure it's not intuitive or easy to work with like modern game engines. I very highly doubt anything the dev team does is "drag and drop" like the Unity, Unreal 4, or Source engine. So I cut them a modicum of slack for that. They do what they can with the resources they have and the tools they're given.

That said, I've been CONSTANTLY baffled by the priorities the LOTRO team seems to maintain. This game has begun to cater more and more to casual players who sign on for a few hours a day, roleplay a little bit, buy some cosmetics, and then move on to something else. I mean no offense to people who enjoy things like that in the game, but you're not part of the end game community that gives people something to level up for and aspire to be a part of. You're not the ones populating the moors or Osgiliath and paying 15 dollars a month for VIP. So why are players like them being focused on in development? There are THOUSANDS of hours of quests, hundreds and hundreds of cosmetic items, and god knows what other aspects of the game us end game raiders/PvP'ers don't give half a cow about.

I've seen what the dev team is capable of. Ost Dunhoth at level 65 level cap was one of the GREATEST raids i've ever seen in an MMO. I'd go as far as to say I think it's actually the best. Tower of Orthanc was also fantastic once the initial bugs were ironed out. Rift, Helegrod, Dar Narbugud...the list of amazing raids this game has deep in its closet is incredible. So where is the game LOTRO used to be? I just don't get it.

Are you guys (the Dev Team) just not paying attention to any of us on here? Do you not care? Do you have a skewed philosophy that casual players who drop 20 dollars on cosmetics on time and quit are keeping your game alive more than people (like me) who have spent LITERALLY thousands of dollars on Subscriptions and store items to improve my characters?

I have a really hard time that any of you guys developing this content are proud of what you're doing. I just can't believe that after I've seen what you can create when you have direction and ambition. I hope at least a few of you take the time to listen to the genuine pleas of someone who longs for what LOTRO used to be.

+100 for this post. Spot. On.

[Arnenna]

Well, the same could be said of the combat roles, couldn't it? In those old wars, warriors were not very useful without people to feed them and supply them with weapons or repair things when needed.

Very true, but for most part, those things did not take place right in the middle of the battle field. They eat before they go, things are generally recovered and salvaged and taken out for repair. The battlefield is what it is - the place of "battle".

I'm not anti-BB. I think they are very good for those that enjoy them. Every player should be able to play content they enjoy - else we lose them. It would be nice to see some more instances soon for the folk that like that type of play. It shouldn't be "all raid", and likewise, it shouldn't be all BB either.

[Almagnus1]

Such as? I can think of a few places where I'd like to have content like that, but I don't think they necessarily require a first visit to those locations. I think 'In Their Absence' proved that we can put group content in older areas pretty successfully.

MoL

Given what we saw in ToO, wouldn't it be possible for Saruman to have had some of the more hazardous experiments off-site?

A break in and termination of that lab and Saruman's experiments would have formed an interesting instance cluster of the ITA style for HD. What would have made it better was the other NPCs recognizing that we're excellent for this type of work because of the reputation we have because of all the stuff we've done in Rohan.

Another possible instance cluster with DA would involve us hopping through a set of instances, going ship to ship, fighting off a corsair advance on one of the bigger galleons, with the "instance" being scripted as we take hold of a galleon then throw the entire corsair naval formation into chaos by having a ship firing on friendly targets, then hopping from ship to ship.

Or you could create a story with the instance clusters where we have four three mans, which have various teams, then those funnel into two six man isntances, with each of the three man instances merging with exactly one other, then have a twelve man as the capstone for it where it ties the story together. For example, using this as a series of maneuvers in a larger battle (like what could have been done with Helm's Deep), that's a mix of encounters/scripted instances. Or something like this can be done at the Black Gate, as that would help make it feel more epic, and also allow exploration of multiple story paths through the encounter, which can make the experience all the more richer for us.

Part of the raid issue deals with this notion that all instances have to be in indoor dungeons, or outdoors encounters. Very few take advantage of the scripting to cause possible movement, especially if you have a wall of death behind you, like OD Wound wing, to keep the players advancing at a minimum rate, while also doubling as a weed out mechanic, because if the players can't get through the "gauntlet", then they aren't going to beat the boss.

There plenty of places and tactics you can take with creating a raid encounter to make it fit the area, but part of it requires divorcing yourself from the pattern of trash => boss for four wings, followed by a mini-boss before the final boss, which has basically been the pattern for the majority of the raid instances.

[OldMadeOfLions]

...part of it requires divorcing yourself from the pattern of trash => boss for four wings, followed by a mini-boss before the final boss, which has basically been the pattern for the majority of the raid instances.

I don't think it's really this so much as whether you'd want to play a single instance (of whatever group-size) rather than waiting for a whole instance-cluster. I know that sometimes as designers we have an 'all or nothing' mentality, which means that if we can't do an entire instance-cluster we don't do any, which may have limited this type of content.

MoL

[cdq1958]

Very true, but for most part, those things did not take place right in the middle of the battle field. They eat before they go, things are generally recovered and salvaged and taken out for repair. The battlefield is what it is - the place of "battle".

I'm not anti-BB. I think they are very good for those that enjoy them. Every player should be able to play content they enjoy - else we lose them. It would be nice to see some more instances soon for the folk that like that type of play. It shouldn't be "all raid", and likewise, it shouldn't be all BB either.

With respect to battle fields, fighting wasn't the only things happening there. There were objectives to attain and people were needed to create diversions and do field repairs of fortifications as well.

This is the common ground needed. While I don't find classic instances to be of any added value (NB: added), it is clear that these are desired strongly enough to be worth doing. Yes, classic instance clusters should be done and there are settings for them that don't require excessive (my opinion) contrivances to have them.

A question arose in my mind. Would we have to have a full cluster, at once (see MoL's post above), or would people be willing to have it released over a (reasonably short) period of time?