U34 Preview 1 Feedback: Delvings

[Spankthenoodle]

Reflect is just an infuriating mechanic - make it removable via corruption. Otherwise, Champs and Hunters will just kill themselves in these instances endlessly.

[Goatimli]

Overall, I liked the Delving System and think it has some good potential! My main takeaways are as follows:

1. It was hard to differentiate difficulty among levels. 1–3 felt the same, 4–6 felt the same, and 7–9 felt the same. Matching Delvings to Instance's T5 difficulty system could be better and encourage more play of the different levels.
2. There was a large variance in difficulty among the different missions. For example, missions where you only needed to defeat one mob at a time, such as The Nettinglade, were substantially easier than wave-based missions like Siege of Sirlond or The Bridge to Caranost that resets upon defeat. Unless there was a difference in reward, there is little incentive to complete a level 10 Delving on the more challenging missions compared to the easier ones.
3. I would reiterate what some players are saying in regards to introducing mechanics over buffs. First, I did enjoy the meaningful buffs that were introduced, namely morale reflect and mob spawning upon defeat, since they required a bit different strategy than basic modifiers. I also liked the constant spawning of puddles in some instances, incentivizing movement and awareness of surroundings. Still though, I think it would be more fun to introduce mechanics or challenges along with each delving (like defeat two bosses within x% morale of each other, pull certain levers during fights, complete the mission without defeating x number of mobs, etc.). Going in, I wanted Delvings to be a solo alternative to instances, which at high tiers require a bit of planning and knowledge of fight mechanics. If that is the goal, there is a bit to be desired with its current state. All this to say, I did enjoy Delvings more than Missions, and I’m glad to see LotRO making solo content a bit more difficult.
4. I am glad that by Level 10 I had to think about the fights a bit more. However, I was expecting a substantial level of difficulty for Level 10, something that would make me think, “wow, that’s really challenging and quite the achievement to complete.” For example, T5 raids are not for the faint of heart and achievements are given to kinships who can first clear them. Similarly, I would have expected the most difficult Delving level to carry the same panache. With that said, I imagine there are substantial limitations in making a mission difficult yet still achievable by the squishiest to the sturdiest of classes.

On to my thoughts for individual missions. I completed these on my Rune-Keeper which is equipped in all teal gear, mostly Adventurers Armor with only one raid piece. Unbuffed morale at 670,000 with capped critical rating. The only buffs present during the missions were a Hope Token with occasional trail food.

Level 0: A Plague of Men and Brigands in Nimbarth
I believe the correct term for describing this level is super easy, barely an inconvenience. But that’s how it should be. I completed two because I didn’t know until completing the second that I got my first delving stone in the mail (I was expecting it to be in my bags or pending loot).

Level 1: Caranost Command Post
Still very easy, but had a decent increase in difficulty from Level 0.

Level 2: Caranost Courtyard
It honestly felt the same as Level 1.

Level 3: Crown of Caranost
It honestly felt the same as Level 1.

Level 4: Down on the Farm
This felt a bit more difficult, but not as a large of a jump as between Levels 0 and 1. It may have been more difficult due to me accidentally pulling lots of mobs or the mechanics of the mission.

Level 5: Jorthkyn and Hounds
It honestly felt the same as Level 4, if anything a bit easier due to the nature of the mission (defeating around two mobs per fight).

Level 6: Haunting at Dol Ernil
It honestly felt the same as Level 4. NOTE: the first time I entered this mission, the Delving Stone did not appear. After leaving the Mission, completing a different one, and reentering, it was there.

Level 7: Siege of Sirlond
I did not understand the mechanics at first so more mobs built up than what I could have handled. If I slowly pulled them and defeated from the onset it might have been doable, but I liked the addition of mechanics here instead of just buffs. With that said, I won through complete cheating. After the mobs built up and my time expired, I popped my bubble and ran the mobs in a circle until I reached the scout master and quickly traveled back. While I died right after I was transported out of the mission, I nonetheless completed the quest. I imagine this is not working as intended.

NOTE: The Delving Stone’s “roots” are buried underground so we only see the top 3/4 of the stone.

Level 8: Caranost Command Post and Stirring of Spirits
Due to my de facto defeats in the previous mission, I switched from Yellow to Red trait line. Caranost Command Post was a bit more difficult, and I was defeated several times. After winning and talking with the scout master, I never got my gem, so had to do another Level 8 Mission.

For Stirring of Spirits, this was very easy compared to the last one and felt more like Level 4.

Level 9: The Bridge To Caranost and The Nettinglade
The Bridge to Caranost was the only instance I found too difficult to complete. I think it was doable, but the barricades and mobs reset upon each defeat. I’m confident I could have won were it not for this. I don’t mind the instance resetting upon defeat; however, it seems this should be standard among missions instead of piecemeal. This was also where the morale reflect was introduced. I enjoyed the mechanic, and it required a bit of planning with the very small morale pool I had. If I had raid gear and 1,000,000 morale, I think it would have been far more doable.

For The Nettinglade, this mission was very easy. The morale reflect still required a bit of planning and at first lead to a few defeats, but due to the nature of defeating mobs one at a time, it was not difficult.

NOTE: I suffered the same rock glitch mentioned previously in this thread. There’s suppose to be a rock ledge there, but instead you just fall through it. The location is: You are on Bullroarer server 22 at r1 lx927 ly828 i12 ox146.71 oy83.78 oz412.01 h126.6. Game timestamp 46460.588.
Also, when returing to the scout master, there was a small rocky ledge my dwarven legs could not jump over, although I imagine a taller race might have been able to. The location is: You are on Bullroarer server 22 at r1 lx926 ly826 i12 ox123.99 oy42.58 oz419.70 h229.2. Game timestamp 47004.187.

Level 10: A Plague of Men
Going back to the first mission of the day I completed, I succeeded with a bit of a challenge. This felt like the most difficult tier, and I liked the additional mechanic of new mobs spawning, which required a bit more planning. With that said, as long as I walked carefully and didn’t take on too many at once, it was still quite doable. My favorite part was finally having a reason to use all my skills—I don’t remember the time I was actually wishing Shocking Touch was off cooldown. In retrospect, I would have spent trait points to increase this skill's duration!

NOTE: In an attempt to avoid aggroing a mob, I tried going around him to collect the supply bucket; however, I was blocked by the red wall. I’ve never seen this wall used in this manner to prevent us from going in a direction that was not the instance border. It felt odd and out of place—if you don’t want us sneaking around mobs, put some rubble there or increase the mob’s aggro range. The location is: You are on Bullroarer server 28 at r1 lx935 ly711 i6 ox141.42 oy159.94 oz417.11 h47.8. Game timestamp 48004.031.

To reiterate, I found Delvings to be enjoyable and more fun than missions; however, I think they could use a bit of improvement to truly challenge dedicated solo players.

[Bragolos]

I must say I really like the setup of this system! It gives an incentive to run these Missions and therefore I hope it will be copied to the other ones as well.

On the note of some saying they're 'too easy'. I haven't participated in the 140 raid until now, so I'm sitting at a mix of Gundabad landscape/barter/crafted gear right now, with 2 or 3 ember gear at lvl 462. LI's and Virtues are good. So certainly not a very good setup, but also not very bad. I came at the point of not seeing any reason to progress my gear any further, besides maybe for participating in T1 raid. But it seems that now, finally, there's some actual challenging AND rewarding solo content arriving in the game (sure, you could always do T3 skirms, but when were those rewarding).

I've only played up to T5 last night, and although I admit it didn't really feel very hard, the single fact that from T4 on I actually had to think about who to shoot (not pulling too much mobs at once), about using the blood arrow to heal myself a bit, about washing off effects, and other kinds of skill-effects, instead of just pew pew pew, that was a long, long time ago in solo play (perhaps Moria pre-2012?). And from the T5 experience I really, really expect to have problems with T8 and up in the current setup.

But that's a good thing. It encourages to further gain gear, virtues and better traceries from the rest of the game and from the Delvings itself.

So I would not say too soon that it's too easy. And in the end, it must be a hell of a job to balance such a system for everyone between a fast-leveled under-geared squishy 140 alt and a T2 or T3 raid geared experienced player! And that's also where the 10 (!) different tiers come into play, I suspect. But even then, looking at the gear it seems that it is (rightfully so) not intended to replace higher tier raid gear, so the 10th tier should by definition be completable for people haven't gotten a bunch of raid gear.

I'm curious about the other daily 'gimmicks', and if the effort of playing this will be worth the reward (how long it will take to get one piece of gear, etc). I'm hoping some decent effort will be put into elemininating all the bugs (very good that the Scouts arrive near you and that you don't need those chests anymore). Keep the good work up, this is a nice surprise for this 'low level' expansion pack!

[Spankthenoodle]

Bridge to Caranost - I have 10 orcs, all with reflect in front of me, on 10 difficulty. Playing a champ, but don't see how this would be possible on any class.

Edit: also, at a certain point I was able to run straight through the barricades, not sure if WAI.

[Spankthenoodle]

Bridge to Caranost - I have 10 orcs, all with reflect in front of me, on 10 difficulty. Playing a champ, but don't see how this would be possible on any class.

It's possible but stupid, just single targeting one at a time until they're all dead. I die each time but doesn't seem to be any penalty for dying other than the mobs you didn't kill healing back to full.

I mean, this would be really easy on champ without reflect, but there's gotta be a better way to add some mechanics that make this challenging. Movement based stuff would be cool.

[SSG_Orion]

Thanks for the explanation. I'll think of these missions as a two-part quest then -- the mission, with it's own turn-in, and the delving, with another separate turn-in.



So once you leave the instance (and auto-fail a mission,) you shouldn't go back in to complete it? It had saved my progress, so I thought I could continue where I left off, and when I did complete it, the scout showed up and I clicked on him to finish the quest. But if getting back in and completing the quest does not grant the reward, then I'd suggest locking players out from getting back in at all until everything resets.

I'd rather see players be allowed back in to finish where they left off (with the reward) granted though!

There are two things happening.

1) You are attempting to complete the mission. This is handled like all missions that are currently in the game. There is a quest obtained outside the instance space that tells you complete an instance. Then there is the quest within the instance space. That requires you to complete a set of objectives - kill x orcs, collect y widgets, harvest z crops. This works like all standard missions.

2) There are delvings modifiers that you are adding after you enter the mission space. These are not missions. They are closer to traditional quests. In order to complete a delving you must complete the current mission that you are on. Should you leave the mission for any reason, you will fail the delving. If you leave a mission while a delving is active, the delving will fail. The mission can still be completed - provided that the instance has not shut down.

[SSG_Orion]

Reflect is just an infuriating mechanic - make it removable via corruption. Otherwise, Champs and Hunters will just kill themselves in these instances endlessly.

Or maybe... they'll need to grab a friend and duo.

[Aranaan]

Or maybe... they'll need to grab a friend and duo.

or maybe... let people do it solo...

[Neinda]

Or maybe... they'll need to grab a friend and duo.

If you want people to duo the missions then maybe it is time to set up a working instance finder for them?

[Esgalad]

Or maybe... they'll need to grab a friend and duo.

I would love to see any data or even forum surveys about how many people report enjoying missions, are able to find someone who wants to duo missions every time they log on, etc. This would need to be done several times over the course that we're still on the same level/end game content/missions, sometimes what, 1.5? years?

At least on our server, I would have to give up every night if I were waiting for someone excited to do missions.

And re: Making the game less fair for champions, I have still never seen or gotten a reply regarding why dwarf champions do less damage than man/elf champions, will the bug be fixed or will the dwarves (with slower attack animations) be buffed to compensate for this error, etc.

[DoRonRon]

To date any reflect mechanic had either a damage type switch or waiting out a timer or corruption removal or timing of a pull as a buff cycled off to counter. It's hardly a mechanic for a solo/duo only space without such counters.

Many classes who aren't healers do have access to some percentage based heal functionality. It could be that we have to find an appropriate strength weapon to equip to match the cadence of those heals. Every fight ever being a balance of incoming vs outgoing.

Or face calling out for healers all week long.

I'm intrigued nevertheless, just for the pure challenge. The Mission tech however, gets flakier with increasing pops and I'm aggrieved enough at loosing an instance to the instance lock. Although there evidently has been some efforts made to some earlier missions there has been no communicating of such via any patch notes. As if none wanted to admit they needed attention or done on the QT, I know not. I'd want a stable known environment before bringing my A game, but I suspect it won't reach live as it is. So not rushing to pre-purchase. Maybe have a look in BR#2.

I noticed feedback on a number of malices. Is this frequency of change to remain for Live? Rather than fixed for a number of days as used in the source game. What are we talking about here, hours, days or weeks or totally random for a mission on any given day?

[Brinswith]

Or maybe... they'll need to grab a friend and duo.

Forced grouping should never be the answer - especially when some classes will be able to solo it. A non-removable reflect is the worst possible game mechanic that could have been implemented. Missons whether intended or not have been sought out as something to do when you have nothing else to do. We have guides set up for the fastest ones to do because people find them tedious and over long. Often with a long run back to even finish and exit.

[SSG_Orion]

Forced grouping should never be the answer - especially when some classes will be able to solo it. A non-removable reflect is the worst possible game mechanic that could have been implemented. Missons whether intended or not have been sought out as something to do when you have nothing else to do. We have guides set up for the fastest ones to do because people find them tedious and over long. Often with a long run back to even finish and exit.

There is no forced grouping. It's a choice. I was merely suggesting that if you grab a friend to do tier 10 - the hardest and most rewarding delving, you might find it easier.

Not forcing you to group.

[DoRonRon]

Good job that there is exactly one healer for every non healer on every server at level 140.

Everyone grabbing their "friend" to heal them will be an exercise in "how to lose friends and alienate people" soon enough. My Minnie and RK will be going anon for the first time in 15 years.

[Brinswith]

There is no forced grouping. It's a choice. I was merely suggesting that if you grab a friend to do tier 10 - the hardest and most rewarding delving, you might find it easier.

Not forcing you to group.

The problem here Orion is that it isn't "hard" to complete the T10. There's nothing hard about spending 45 minutes in a mission killing one mob at a time due to the non-removable reflect. It's just tedious and obnoxious. I'm all for a challenge but running these as a champion is an exercise in how to get annoyed. I ran The Bridge To Caranost and Bite the Hand on T10. I'm not sure exactly how you intended hunters and champs to do this but killing one mob - die - run back - kill another mob - die - rinse and repeat got old really fast.


Edit: also saw the post on discord. Will look forward to testing it again.

[Cordovan]

50 writs for T10 completion. The quality of gear from the additional reward box is higher, for higher delving tiers, but can't speak to % chance you'll get gear (as opposed to low level crafting materials, which I assume is WiP. Nobody wants coal after reflecting themselves to near-death)

The percentage chance to get better gear goes up with the tier of difficulty.

[Thorondir]

There is no forced grouping. It's a choice. I was merely suggesting that if you grab a friend to do tier 10 - the hardest and most rewarding delving, you might find it easier.

Not forcing you to group.

Sry, but having 37.5% reflect on average has nothing to do with difficulty, that is just obnoxious - and an absolute unfun mechanic. The only way to play that halfway fast is to go in full, kill 1-2 mobs and die in the process - Rinse and Repeat until you are finished ...

EDIT: just saw your post on discord: Thanks for adjusting the reflect level, hopefully it will be much more manageable than.

[HolyDuckTape]

So we can now get gear on par with raid level gear, ''two BiS items'' and tons of other goodies for killing training dummy health mobs (boring/tedious not difficult) in missions which are already enormously boring.

Nice way of killing all need to ever do any instance in the game ever again, well... might still need to do some real instances or else the boredom would be enough to defeat any man's willpower to open the game. No mission no matter how ''difficult'' (boring) should ever give you anything close to raid gear and never ever should it give BiS items. This is crazy

[Lillipia]

Hello,

Not sure what happened - no mobs show up on this quest. I did use the Delving but now I cannot progress since mobs will not show up. Logged out of game, left instance, mobs are still a no show. I'm sure I am not that scary.

First mission Bit the Hand and I completed I did not use the Delving but mission mobs seemed very easy for my new 140 Hunter without any top raid gear. The scout showed up on completion but couldn't talk to hear to leave mission, had to leave instance.

Seige Breaking - able to use Delving, Mobs showed up ( a few decided to reincarnate from the catapult) missing one catapult that I couldn't find anywhere using the delete tab - so couldn't finish this one.

Sifting through time - was able to complete this mission and Delving quest. Scout did show up little early (had 2 more artifacts to find). Didn't really see too much difference in Difficulty between no Delving and 1 Delving, but this is probably on purpose.

[SSG_Orion]

Sry, but having 37.5% reflect on average has nothing to do with difficulty, that is just obnoxious - and an absolute unfun mechanic. The only way to play that halfway fast is to go in full, kill 1-2 mobs and die in the process - Rinse and Repeat until you are finished ...

EDIT: just saw your post on discord: Thanks for adjusting the reflect level, hopefully it will be much more manageable than.

To be clear, here, the numbers are all in flux.

[Belechael]

I just tried to do the Bridge Mission at T9 with my hunter.

I could finish it, very slowly, after killing one or 2 of the 3 mobs in every barricade, but after the 2nd barricade when I died the mobs and barricades reset...

I have to add my complaint regarding the reflect mechanism, especially for dps classes that have high burst damage and not enough healing skills, as the hunter. It is just NOT FUN AT ALL.

What will it take for this instance at T9 and T10, my tanks running from one side to the other???

Oh, and regarding the loot: If you want to put some loot in the chests that does not insult us then don't put 2 sunstones or a housing item in a fraking T8 box!!! Getting something like that from a T1 to T5 is acceptable, but T8???

[Bragolos]

Steps of Caranost: I finished the Mission (with a question that's been noted before: what exactly is the purpose of the barricades? How should they operate?) and completed it by talking to the scout, just as I did with the earlier 6 missions (so this was T7). But then, back at the Mission giver, he did NOT have the Delving quest to hand in, and I saw a note in the log screen 'You have failed the Delving quest' (or something like that). /Bug.

[otch]

I played and streamed going from delving tier 1 to 10 today on my brawler. For reference, I have full Tier 3 gear and was playing in red.

Loot from delvings seems random, the tier seems to have no effect on the loot

Siege of sirlond
-I have no idea why the design of this mission is to wait 7 minutes than kill 1 pack of monsters, at least it gives a chance for a coffee break while doing missions

Steps of Caranost
-Every monster in the mission aggroes when you attack the first barricade

Tier 9 granting monsters reflect is a bad mechanic because you can't deal with it

The birdge to Carnost
-Completable by just running past all the monsters, which was the only way for my brawler to complete it on t9

The nettinglade
-Fell through a rock at this location
You are on Bullroarer server 24 at r1 lx927 ly827 i12 ox144.65 oy79.84 oz415.98 h22.5. Game timestamp 90058.457.

The writ economy seems really bad.

I gained 290 writs doing 1-10, including all of the deeds. You get 58 writs from doing a t10 (assuming you get and break down gear) which would be 156 runs of t10 for a full set of gear. Whic at 13 missions a day is 12 days of t10 missions each day for 1 set of gear, not including jewelry as well as cloak. This seems like it is too much, and won't be achievable for non-raiders.

Things to changes:
-Please add consumables to the list of items to buy. This system will boil down to getting the cloak and the recipes and then will set next to skirmishes in the pile of unsused and unrun content systems.
-Add a way to buy 453 essences in this system so people can get some instead of having empty slots everywhere.
-Add a way to buy ancient scripts, enhancement runes, and purple traceries for those that don't have them.
-Please change reflect somehow. I basically would just kill myself on every monster I fought.
-The loot boxes that give you materials should let you select the tier instead of randomly assigning you materials you can't use.

I have a really detailed view of my thoughts on this system thus far here, linked below in a brief 8 minute video.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1629546446

[Vehdren]

To be clear, here, the numbers are all in flux.

As people have noted, there is nothing fun or cool or challenging about an unclearable reflect. Historically, reflect was a mechanic that strongly suggests the player not attack the reflecting mob until some action is taken to remove the effect. I've never been a fan of it but that not the case here, it's worse. If your intention is to create an enjoyable experience with challenging content this isn't it.

If you're trying to encourage grouping in delving content there are better ways to do it than a reflect. This delving content should be for everyone, group content or solo content but not content that forces some classes to group and not others.

[PerinStone]

140 Burg - Mostly crafted level 460 gear.

In the letter where we get the first gem, how about a note to go to a missing giver in the new zone to start this?

Crown of Caranost - Finally found the boss, but was blocked by red walls. Had to throw a knife at him to pull him then HIPS because I couldn't get to the archer.
Steps of Caranost - Ran to top and everyone disappeared. Talked to scout. The option for the quest did nothing. I completed the other quest, it completed the mission. I left the delving and it failed.
Jorthkyn and hounds, - cant reach 2 of them because of red walls. Had to range pull to kill them.
Haunting at Dol Ernil - Wights respawn but don't count as kills so why are they respawning?
Siege of Serlond - Never ending waves of brute/archer/defiler.

Opened boxes level 1-8. Got Purple and Teal level 467 armor which was an upgrade for me in box 4 and 7. 5 light hide in the level 8 box is a slap in the face. I'd frankly not get anything than this.

I'm not seeing the point of the cracked gems. Why do we have to barter these to redo any tier? I had to exit the instance more than once to barter the cracked gem to start the instance.

1500 scripts for one piece of equipment seems really high. I can't imagine grinding these missions for weeks to upgrade my armor.