Dev Diary Feedback: Solving Problems and Making Friends, Parts I & II

[TheOneRinger]

Arctic, none of your solutions work for me thanks. And on Arkenstone K-ore can easily get above 2g, so are you saying you haven't enjoyed selling at that price (because it's now lower) or that you haven't enjoyed buying at that price (because it's now higher)? I have some cash, but I don't want to blow it on something that should be easier to get when there are plenty of other things I need to buy that should be rare.

Even if they add more nodes it is likely they will still be farmed to death, but with these instances it creates for all of us an environment something like what you seem to be experiencing on Vilya.

This also opens up the higher tiers of the crafting system to new higherlevels working on tier 6. They're not going to know where all of the nodes are and the ones they do see they will be scooped up by people who have gotten to them first. This way they can try these instances and do the thing they're most familiar with: fighting mobs killing bosses and getting nodes on the way, without having to hunt for them and then often find someone else has just harvested it.

I'm sorry Scenario couldn't also make you new content just for Vilya, since Vilya doesn't seem to have any problem with crafting and nodes. For some reason he doesn't seem to have infinite time. But keep in mind that the larger servers have more people and so control the majority. Turbine can't make content that the majority needs and then make more content for the minority who likes to complain they don't need the new content. Again, basing your arguments off your doubts of other people and servers' problems just doesn't work. And your only solutions seem to be people play more and Turbine "fix" a system not many know about, fewer know how to use it, and even fewer like to use it, myself among those who know how to use it but really really don't want to.

EDIT: To respond to those who are having issues with their minstrels soloing. It will get easier in Book 7 to both heal and DPS, and if you just slot Herald's Hammer and the Piercing Cry trait (I forget what it is) that is usually enough to solo pretty well... Also just get a decent DPS LI and I find it pretty easy. I can solo better on my minstrel than my hunter anyway.

[ararax2]

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

Also it drops very small amounts of loots for very expensive prices. A stack of ancient Iron is 350s on E, how many 20-40s chests do you need to get a 50stack.

[Dwarven-Might]

Why everything is still so much focused on Item Advancement and deeds? A lot of people by now are 60, some care about deeds others don't. But I know for sure that 99% of those people have houses, kinship halls and possibly are parts of the kinships. I've read through the article and its great that work is being done and Book 7 is being intensively worked on.

But may I remind you that we need more "cosmetic" rewards at this point than weapons, armors etc. You devs and designers did a great job by providing player base with immense variety of equipment that is available at this point. Variety is the most important in every MMO and we have it now. We have abundance of equipment to be honest and still the main goal for players will always be the best and the greatest.

I'd rather see something new I can put in my house/kinship hall, wear or clip to my belt to a kinship event. Some social content, new trophies that everyone is asking so much about. Now with Eriador and Moria content LOTRO has quite so much of content to play through. I say devs need to focus more on social content now. Balance equipment stats to make crafting enjoyable and actually necessary again, finally remove this annoying hook system from our communities so we can make our houses and kinship halls cousy and unique.

I feel great gratitude and respect for Turbine, devs that work on new content and show us the actual work and plans. With huge Moria success through I think that its time to address some issues that many players talk about in suggestions. Crafting instances are probably needed, will be fun for newer players that didn't do much in crafting yet, for farmers maybe that sell resources on AH, not so much for majority of player base that did their playthrough already with Moria and wait for something more to get in and have fun with. I personally am not very big ALT fan, and usually focus only on my main guardian whenever new content is available, but still would like to see something being worked on for high level players that will but in my beg something more than just a stack of hides for doing a quest in instance.

I hope rewards in Book 7 quests will make it worth to log in and not gonna be something like "Oh, I already have 100 of these", or "What am I gonna do with this weapon if I have my nice Legendary of second age?", or "Another 6 rewards that I end up to chose the most expensive just to sell?" ... Please make rewards that are worth spending time to do the quest. Rewards that we can actually USE and not sell for 15s to the first vendor we see...

[treefallingquietly]

While I am a big fan of thread de-railment, I am going to comment on the original subject.


I can't help but feel a little concerned about what this will do to the economy. I know you mentioned it but I already have way too much mats that won't sell on the AH for any price. If you allow more supply, the demand, which there already is a problem with, will tank even more.

I hope all of this is steps to making crafting more viable. One thing I liked with LOTRO compared to other games is how effective crafted items were. I can only think of one other game where crafting had a HUGE impact to game play and was actually required for making end game items, not as a filler until X dropped from X Raid.

[ArcticAurora]

Arctic, none of your solutions work for me thanks. And on Arkenstone K-ore can easily get above 2g, so are you saying you haven't enjoyed selling at that price (because it's now lower) or that you haven't enjoyed buying at that price (because it's now higher)? I have some cash, but I don't want to blow it on something that should be easier to get when there are plenty of other things I need to buy that should be rare.

If you don't wish to spend cash, or collect them personally because you'd rather do other things with your time, why should that not affect your gameplay? The choices you make determine what you do and what you get. If crafting is a priority to you, you will do what it takes. I see this somewhat as a lack of self-initiative simply because every node out there isn't earmarked with your (not you personally, it's a generic player reference) name.

This also opens up the higher tiers of the crafting system to new higherlevels working on tier 6. They're not going to know where all of the nodes are and the ones they do see they will be scooped up by people who have gotten to them first. This way they can try these instances and do the thing they're most familiar with: fighting mobs killing bosses and getting nodes on the way, without having to hunt for them and then often find someone else has just harvested it.

Indeed, I suppose it would be excessively hard to look in the Prospector forums or ask in Advice where ore X spawns. It would even be unusual and cruel punishment for people to explore an area, even though it would help them in terms of questing, and make for a better game experience, etc. I've had nodes ninja'd on me, but it's not a big deal, nor should it be.

I'm sorry Scenario couldn't also make you new content just for Vilya, since Vilya doesn't seem to have any problem with crafting and nodes. For some reason he doesn't seem to have infinite time. But keep in mind that the larger servers have more people and so control the majority. Turbine can't make content that the majority needs and then make more content for the minority who likes to complain they don't need the new content. Again, basing your arguments off your doubts of other people and servers' problems just doesn't work. And your only solutions seem to be people play more and Turbine "fix" a system not many know about, fewer know how to use it, and even fewer like to use it, myself among those who know how to use it but really really don't want to.

... because I was demanding new content for Vilya? Um.. what? I'm not asking for special content. This instance implementation was done to give crafting resources to those who would have difficulty getting it, due to rampant Explorer issues (No one's so far said anything about Scholar nodes being hard-to-get. Are they in bigger servers? That stuff drops off mobs too).

...


Okay, let's simplify this and reset. Above this ^ is dead to me. Back to basics.

Crafters want resources without worry of having them ninja'd or having node availability issues on larger servers. No argument right?

There already is a limited-supply crafting supply system. Consignments. Improve them. All Scenario had to do was bump up the timer, increase the cost to a fair minimum, increase the consignment return order and you've solved the issue.

Why do people think every interaction with an NPC must be the experience of a lifetime? Just drop him in some known and accessible town, heck make it 21st Hall, and you're telling me that people wouldn't go because it's not engaging? It would take 10 seconds of your time, at most, to que up what you'd like. Delivered tomorrow (heck, maybe even sooner), with whatever cooldown that Scenario is proposing and you can go do whatever you'd do otherwise without having to worry about gathering any ore at all

Please tell me there's something wrong with the above. Slight over-simplifications? Likely. 4 weeks worth? I'm not sure, but I'd guess it'd be less considering the work put into these new instances. Time better spent that achieves the same end-goal.

[Scenario]

Please tell me there's something wrong with the above. Slight over-simplifications? Likely. 4 weeks worth? I'm not sure, but I'd guess it'd be less considering the work put into these new instances. Time better spent that achieves the same end-goal.

While your suggestions are valid and may achieve your end goals - that does not mean they achieve our end goals.

The goals for these instances, while intended to be a boon to crafters, reach beyond crafting to touch on providing more solo-able instance experiences (IA instances have proven there is a ravenous audience for this), synergize with deeds to help make under-supported kill tasks more achievable (not everyone has completed their deeds, and re-rolls/alts always have the deed concern) and for me to learn how the instance and quest system work (so that I can, in the future, develop even more compelling experiences as I have time to do so).

[Locklear93]

reach beyond crafting to touch on providing more solo-able instance experiences (IA instances have proven there is a ravenous audience for this)

This says it all, for me. I like soloing and duoing. I can enjoy larger groups (I raid fairly seriously in another game), but if I'm popping on for a little bit, and want something to do? Here's my list:

1. Must be quick
2. Must be soloable (I raid elsewhere, and enjoy outdoor group content too, don't get me wrong--this is my brief log on list.)
3. Must be fun (the IA instances I've done to date have been more fun than killing random stuff, as they take a bit more thought.)
4. Should be progress (Putzing around can be fun, but getting to advance my character too is even better.)
5. Should have some reward (The economy in this game is fairly harsh compared to most. Getting economic value out of my time is a big bonus.)

Well, looks like everything I want out of a quick logon is covered by this list. Consignment covers... the first two. I won't count #5, as I'm not being rewarded, I'm paying, and I won't really count #4, as I'm trading financial progress for crafting progress. Too close to zero sum.

Count me in for crafting instances, please.

[Fornost]

5. Should have some reward (The economy in this game is fairly harsh compared to most. Getting economic value out of my time is a big bonus.)

... I won't count #5, as I'm not being rewarded, I'm paying, and I won't really count #4, as I'm trading financial progress for crafting progress. Too close to zero sum.

Something way too many people are overlooking in this thread: Three Iron-Garrison Tokens can be traded for one Lothlórien token. Once you gather up 30 of them or so, you can trade it for a rep horse or for a Second Age weapon. If that's not economic value, I don't know what is. I forsee many, many more people running the instances for the tokens daily than for the crafting value twice a week.

[captjax1]

As my good friend Casandir would say.... "Nicely done"

I am truly looking forward to seeing these "crafting instances" for lack of a better word and the though of being able to duo through them makes it sound all the better. Playing through them as a pair adds a nice chance to rp through them with some risk involved as well.

Nice touch with the thought possess THAT made me get hooked on this.

[Scenario]

I am truly looking forward to seeing these "crafting instances" for lack of a better word and the though of being able to duo through them makes it sound all the better. Playing through them as a pair adds a nice chance to rp through them with some risk involved as well.

Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

[Thoroval]

Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

This makes me kinda sad. I'll try the instances out on Bullroarer but as a full healy minstrel it appears I only have 2 choices. Skip the instances (because I likely can't survive them; or at least the level 60 instances), or retrait daily and end up losing more money than I'd make doing the instance. I'll give it a try anyways.

[archrr]

Vastin's goals were a good deal more focused than mine - I wanted as much variability in the monsters themselves where as his instances are meant to be much shorter, less variable and more focused. I also have very little experience with the quest system so for my part it was best to start small while learning and then try something more ambitious in the future.

I wish you'd taken more pages from Vastin's diary The adamant IXP instances, for example, are a really good example of challenging, repeatable content. The use of a simple timed-mob-respawn mechanic that leads to failure if not kept in check creates tension, while the instance spaces in themselves are a major part in the strategy to beat the instance. Running the Library of Steel can be fun, every single day.

The crafting instances on the other hand incorporate none of those principles to make it fun or challenging. Unfortunately, they are quite dull and boring Definitely not gripping content that I would want to repeat on a regular basis.


1. I don't think the goal of having variability due to random mob types was achieved at all. This is because there are 6 instances that are sooo similar to each other that it would have been better off giving each instance its own mob type to give them some sort of distinct identity. As things stand you essentially have 6 almost identical instances with (identically) random chances of a mob spawn type.

2. Running around large maps for crafting nodes has always been a tedious and boring process. The crafting instances reduce some of the tedium by bunching nodes close together but do nothing to reduce the boredom, as the instances themselves are nothing different from what you would encounter in the open map. No scripted behavior, no tricky pathing, nothing.

3. Making collecting nodes a rewarding experience based on challenge would have been a new and relatively easy thing to add. Why not little, fun things like, after killing the boss you also have a chest with say, 30 resources items, which is a challenge to get to? (A simple way, already used in some LotRO instances, would be to have some sort of trap that you have to avoid).

4. I realize that the instances are primarily for gathering resources, so I can see myself being thankful that they exist when I'm running out of resources. But as T6 crafting stands now, I'm sure most people will be running these for the tokens alone. Was there nothing that could have been done to make the instances even slightly more interesting at all?


Of course, this is all my opinion, but I really don't think many people are going to come out and say that the crafting instances are an example of fun, challenging or innovative content.

Especially not after experiencing the IXP instances.

[BerenTelcontar]

Unfortunately, these are solo instances and you won't be able to bring a friend with you into them. It is an interesting suggestion but something that spaces aren't designed for nor is there available time to include consideration for such a change.

I do wish you'd consider changing that in a future update. If the rewards remain the same as they would be for one person, I don't see a problem with two people running it, and both getting the locks while only one set of rewards (i.e. same amount of ore, token, whatever) as if it were only one person. The same could be true of the other IA instances...

[skadoink]

..... I'm sure most people will be running these for the tokens alone......

Tokens? Some reward in there most (ie, me) are not aware of?

[asudo]

Hope there is an increase in beasts that drop hides. Tailors are unloved in moria, with relatively few mobs that drop hides. Hopefully Lothlorien will have something to compensate for that if there are no crafting instances for hides.

[Tawariel]

Matt, well done. I said that a few pages back on this thread based on simply reading about these instances. Today I'm saying it based on the hours of fun I had yesterday actually running them.

I really love em! Realistically soloable even in quest gear, with locks that make them "bited-sized". I can do a bit, take a break and come back later to finish. And the rewards are very appealing... Iron Garrison rep, tradeskilling mats, and tokens. I think the tokens will keep a lot of folks coming back daily (including me, hehe), and the side-effect will be to make tradeskilling mats more plentiful server-wide.

For those who haven't looked at these yet: each instance has 3 daily quests, each of which rewards a tradeskill token. Tradeskill tokens can be bartered for a more tradeskill mats, IXP runes (!), or exchanged for Lothlorien barter tokens (which can be bartered for jewelry, etc., I'm told).

[Tawariel]

Hope there is an increase in beasts that drop hides. Tailors are unloved in moria, with relatively few mobs that drop hides. Hopefully Lothlorien will have something to compensate for that if there are no crafting instances for hides.

There's probably some luck involved as to whether you get cave claws as the mob type, but I got a lot of hides yesterday.

I ran 4 instances (both scholar + both woodworker), and got the following:

- only a couple scholar bits as drops (I went in as Explorer so couldn't harvest any)
- 60 Magnificent hides
- 70 Ilex wood
- 45 Mallorn wood

I definitely could have gotten more hides if I'd killed all of the beasties in the instances. (I only killed a few more than the minimum required by the quests.)

[gildhur]

Shame about the rare monster option getting cut. Hopefully we'll see that kind of thing in the future. It would be lots of fun to run one of these things all the time and once in a while come across a named flake dropper that's a real challenge to beat solo.

[Joe-Phi]

Part II is an interesting read as well.

btw ... 4 weeks ... does this mean that after 4 weeks like everything was completed? Including quests, rewards, instances, mob placing, etc.

After those four weeks the whole stuff was playable or was there further work needed.

And how many world designers worked on the instance space?

Thanks for this dev diary, Scenario ... really interesting!

[semjaza]

Liked part two a lot. Short, but sweet. I've not gotten to try these yet, but they sound fun to me.

I really wish that the jackpot rare monster idea made the cut. Any chance of that being added to some other variation on this in the future? Sounds neat.

[NotYetMeasured]

I too would like to see the instance rare monsters someday.

I am not quite clear on the mechanics, though. For those that have run them, can you help me with the following scenario:

My L55 (or whatever level he will need to be to succeed) Lore-master Historian wants to get some T6 metals for my L41 Tinker so she can make T6 items. If I do the Prospector instance, most of the ore is still found in ore nodes, just like the regular world? But at the end I get something I could barter for ore (or other things)? How will my total ore take from the instance stack up to the Valuable Ore consignment? How much flexibility will I have in picking the tier of ore I receive?


.

[Steale]

I do wish you'd consider changing that in a future update. If the rewards remain the same as they would be for one person, I don't see a problem with two people running it, and both getting the locks while only one set of rewards (i.e. same amount of ore, token, whatever) as if it were only one person. The same could be true of the other IA instances...

I second this motion. When I read about things being "solo", I usually interpret that to mean "soloable", which I like, versus requiring a full fellowship to handle. But, actually, 99% of my play time is spent in one of the duos I am currently playing with friends. We almost never play truly solo, and being forced to leave our fellowship to do these instances alone would mean that we will probably never do them or at best will view them as a necessary evil to gather all the crafting materials we need.

I don't expect the instances to be tailored to duos, but I would very much like to be able to enter and play in them with my friends. As BerenTelcontar mentioned, you could let the rewards stay the same. This would actually reduce the potential amount of crafting materials, etc. coming out of the instances every week, so I don't see any balancing problem in that respect. And, if a reduced challenge level due to playing the instances with more characters than it was designed for is acceptable to those players doing it that way, I don't see any harm in that, either. Unless, of course, the difficulty of these instances is intended to be a limiting factor in their completion, but I don't get that impression since they were originally conceived as "crafting" instances.

Thanks for your consideration.

[Ryvick]

This is just a thought (And it probably wasn't possible in the short time frame you worked through the instances+quests+loot+etc) but since each time you enter the instances for the first time you get a random type of monster, perhaps you could have placed a quest npc INSIDE the instance at the entrance that was decided on by the same rng as the mobs and gave specific quests. This could be similar to how the book instances work in that you have a quest giver at the beginning and then they show up at the end before leaving. I suppose the quests would have to be tied to the first locks as well so that when those locks reset the quests are removed or perhaps given a clock countdown tied to the daily reset timer.

Once again just a thought but it might allow you more diverse and unique quests to these and future rng instances.

[Scenario]

btw ... 4 weeks ... does this mean that after 4 weeks like everything was completed? Including quests, rewards, instances, mob placing, etc.

4 weeks includes everything except for bug fixing - there were bugs but they were not plentiful.

And how many world designers worked on the instance space?

I was the only designer who built the spaces - from start to finish. Everyone else was busy working on Lothlorien, Epic Book and other World Design tasks.

[Sylux14]

Scenario, will it ever be possible to have solo instances that are on the scale of BG and maybe URU in length?