Dungeons of Naerband is still broken

[Zvim666]

Don't forget that at some point, this fight is a DPS race, if you pick burglar over 1 of the ranged dps, you will most likely end up wiping.

Yes, this is the main point I made in the beta when you create difficult content there is a high level of exclusion as people will naturally take the combination which makes the content easiest, whatever that particular combination is for whatever fight.

I would prefer challenging content over content that isn't challenging, however, when the content isn't challenging there is no real pressure on devs to get class balance right, when the content is challenging then there is a lot more pressure on developers to get class balance right.

Choosing to go down the path they had, and doing literally nothing to address the weaker classes means they have let down all the players of those classes and they will find it extremely difficult to get fellowship spots.

I had a lot more faith in the devs ability to adjust the difficulty of the content than I had in them getting balance right. I feel for the players who are stuck in limbo.

[luckygirl1]

So 2 mandatory guardians does not make it very restricting to class make up but needing a LM does? Either scenario doesn't leave much room for a Burglar.

Blue LMs are fine, the mechanics for this fight are ####. Unless a pet nerf comes with Burglar level dps on blue line then it should be left as it is and the mechanics of the fight fixed.

I may have mixed my points up a bit but it still stands that there is no place for me in the six man and the fight is still class restricted. For a six man I am not okay with it obviously. Im not asking for a nerf, just seems the fight itself leaves players behind just simply based on the mechanics of it (and has nothing to do with the player skill level), which again is not fair. In my original post when I said re-worked i meant the same as mechanics need fixed, not nerfed.


I think this all circles back though to the class balance that people keep talking about, i would have hoped this was something that came along with mordor but doesnt seem to be the case, and also doesnt seem to be the case with the new raid coming out. It would be much better for the game in my own opinion to switch some of the order on the drawing board and fine tune things before you bring in the raid.

[CaerArianrhod]

Last boss needs to be nerfed and Blue LM bears also needs to be nerfed as well,

DO NOT TOUCH THE F... BEAR!
Please think before you'r asking to ruin a class more that it is ruined already! Ask to fix the bugs in the instance!
You would just nerf the bear and remove the ability of an LM to have a good pet for solo play just becaus a bugged instance?!?! Really??

[CaerArianrhod]

DO NOT TOUCH THE F... BEAR!
Please think before you'r asking to ruin a class more that it is ruined already! Ask to fix the bugs in the instance!
You would just nerf the bear and remove the ability of an LM to have a good pet for solo play just becaus a bugged instance?!?! Really??

If you'r asking for a nerf: ask to nerf Hunter! 597K damage with one skill??

[Marxlne]

DO NOT TOUCH THE F... BEAR!
Please think before you'r asking to ruin a class more that it is ruined already! Ask to fix the bugs in the instance!
You would just nerf the bear and remove the ability of an LM to have a good pet for solo play just becaus a bugged instance?!?! Really??

If you think bear pet is OK right now you're delusional. You don't need a freaking 370k morale pet with crazy mits and immune to any mechanics for SOLO play!

[Zvim666]

If you think bear pet is OK right now you're delusional. You don't need a freaking 370k morale pet with crazy mits and immune to any mechanics for SOLO play!

It's mits aren't crazy, it is just immune to knock back/knock up attacks and the way the game is coded if the pet is immune to the knock effect, they are immune to the damage. It makes the bear seem to be a super tank in DoN because the last boss has a number of knock back effects that are the primary source of it's untankable damage. When I landscape with LM pets, they go down quite quickly to just normal attacks, their morale pool helps them to compensate for the lack of significant damage mitigation abilities, the inability to remove debuffs and damaging effects and the lack of AI to avoid effects which will damage them. Pets in generally will take a lot of avoidable damage and the LM doesn't have the healing capability to keep a small health pool pet alive.

Blue LM just doesn't have the consistent damage output of a DPS class or utility class like Burglar and doesn't have the mitigation or defensive abilities of a Captain. I find blue is the least painful way to solo as a LM, due to long cooldown abilities in red and damage over time being a significant component. Most of the time I don't use the bear, will use a dps pet, the bear comes out when the dps pets wont survive long and the bear is far from unkillable, even with food and debuffing mobs. In scenarios where I need the bear, I often have to replace it.

In Mordor, LM pets have benefited from the change they made to mob partial BPEs in general, mobs and pets will now partially block, parry and evade a lot more than they used to, but have a sizeable morale pool in blue because functionally to do any damage, you need the pet to be alive. The vast majority of my Blue's meager damage comes from timing the longer cooldown abilities with critical coordination, which guarantees a crit with the next skill used. Burning Embers has a naturally high critical rate but being able to guarantee a crit on lightning storm or light of the rising dawn helps Blue LMs significantly to not be horrible solo. For that to happen you need the pet to be alive.

It would be a far better resolution to fix this fight's mechanics rather than to gut one of the specs for LMs.

[siipperi]

If you think bear pet is OK right now you're delusional. You don't need a freaking 370k morale pet with crazy mits and immune to any mechanics for SOLO play!

Yep. Bear is definitely in need of nerf. Having 3x tank morale pool is ridiculous while taking less damage. 120k pool would be just as effective but simply not totally broken. Having to use tricks like this also shows how badly balanced fight its.

If you'r asking for a nerf: ask to nerf Hunter! 597K damage with one skill??

Irrelevant. Broken is broken. Just because some other class is, it doesnt mean bear isnt.

[Zvim666]

Yep. Bear is definitely in need of nerf. Having 3x tank morale pool is ridiculous while taking less damage. 120k pool would be just as effective but simply not totally broken. Having to use tricks like this also shows how badly balanced fight its.



Irrelevant. Broken is broken. Just because some other class is, it doesnt mean bear isnt.

120k, 80k, 336k, these numbers are subjective and meaningless unless there is a design mechanism it relates to. Nobody had an issue with bear's morale pool prior to realising that it could tank this boss. Bears have been tanking raid bosses for a long time now. Nobody cared that LM pets were immune to knockback/knockup attack damage or could tank mobs that would otherwise wipe raids with that kind of damage before, ie Marzgurud in the wastes. What has changed? The fact that there are no other realistic workable solutions? That isn't the problem with the class, the problem is the fight is poorly designed.

LM pets have had the knockback immunity for a long time and it has been necessary because the bear is intended to tank in limited scenarios, because of the complexity of moving pets around when in combat, having them punted around makes it very difficult for positioning and controlling a fight. A player knocked around can easily re-position.

The bear needs a large morale pool and a high base mitigation rate because it has a very limited skill set, when you pull a whole bunch of mobs or a hard hitting boss as a guardian you are likely going to use juggernaut or pledge and you are going to significant reduce incoming damage until mobs can be debuffed, CCed or AEd down. If you take a 43k per tick bleed you can IP them off before they tick. If there is high damage stuff on the ground, you can reposition. If there are multiple mobs hitting you, you will reposition so they all hit you from the front, the bear will only make the effort to be front on to the mob it is told to attack and can often lose B/P against other attackers. The bear needs to have certain advantages to make up for it's limited design and non-existing intelligence, otherwise it will be utterly worthwhile and I think that is the intent from people calling for it to be nerfed.

It isn't the bear that is the problem, nerf the bear and the fight is still no good, the only option left would be to ping pong the boss with two guardians. The fight still would suck balls for melee. It would still exclude a lot of classes.

The bear doesn't have magic mitigation, if it did, it wouldn't die to landscape mobs, and it does.

The final boss fight should be changed so it is doable for a tank to tank/control the boss realistically, the bear shouldn't be changed as a result of this encounter, the encounter should be changed to make it better for the entire community.

[Denhith]

That isn't the problem with the class, the problem is the fight is poorly designed.

^^Exactly, this should be the main point--anything else is just a distraction.
It's been how many pages and how many days now? It would take a few moments for the dev to pop in and make some comments/provide feedback.
If this was any other MMO, the team would be communicating with the community to clear up any misconceptions or clarify mechanics, etc.
Sadly, it's already been proven that the devs who design T2 content don't even test it properly or play through it themselves, so in all fairness...what good would it really do?

/shrug.

[Wulfdur]

Blue LM Bear Tank is simply OP right now and there is no other way around it. I don't know why people don't see it but this is nothing special with this encounter...It is a general imbalance among tanks that is just revealed with this encounter right now and needs to be dealt asap.

They are simply scaled way too much when going from Lvl 108 to lvl 118, to the point where it's morale is approx x3 times of an end game tank. A pet with 3 times the morale of an end game tank can achieve and on top of this, is able to ignore knockbacks and some other mechanics...If you don't see any problem with this, you are clearly biased and now this encounter just proved you wrong. People figured out their OPness and now are abusing it to be able to tank a boss where no other class can tank. They also ignore mechanics of the fight by doing it. This is a serious issue and needs to be fixed right now. Otherwise expect to see more future encounters where people will think about abusing the LM Bear tanking again...

Btw, there is nothing wrong with LM bear tanking. The issue is their OP defences compared to other tanks. Reduce their morale to approx. 1/3th of what they have right now and always keep them at similar morale pool as the other tanks can achieve, then we would have no problem. Also it's ridiculous to hear from people they need 360k+ morale pets for the landscape...LOL

The LM Bear change obviously doesn't solve the problem at hand with Naerband yet. The particular boss fight still needs to be nerfed as well so that any other tank class can stand and tank the boss and not just LM Bear...

[wispsong]

According to most of you landscape doesn't matter. Just nerf first hunter and now LM bear. No need to fix this instance or the approach to design instances. I have news for you, not everybody wants to play instances, not everybody plays as well as you, and not everybody is as well geared as you. If some blue LMs say that they need bear to have this morale in landscape then maybe they do. Why make it harder on landscape players because an instance boss is messed up? LM is not exactly top dps either and needs the pet to stay alive.

[Giliodor]

According to most of you landscape doesn't matter. Just nerf first hunter and now LM bear. No need to fix this instance or the approach to design instances. I have news for you, not everybody wants to play instances, not everybody plays as well as you, and not everybody is as well geared as you. If some blue LMs say that they need bear to have this morale in landscape then maybe they do. Why make it harder on landscape players because an instance boss is messed up? LM is not exactly top dps either and needs the pet to stay alive.

Why, then, did hunters/burglars receive a buff some updates ago? They were doing absolutely fine on landscape, anyway.

PS. If any LM needs their pet to have this level of health they would be better off deleting their character, thereby saving themselves from the torture of having to play it again.

[dselden]

According to most of you landscape doesn't matter. Just nerf first hunter and now LM bear. No need to fix this instance or the approach to design instances. I have news for you, not everybody wants to play instances, not everybody plays as well as you, and not everybody is as well geared as you. If some blue LMs say that they need bear to have this morale in landscape then maybe they do. Why make it harder on landscape players because an instance boss is messed up? LM is not exactly top dps either and needs the pet to stay alive.

A lvl 115 lm bear is basically unkillable on landscape already before even considering blue line's higher level and morale pets.

[Zvim666]

Blue LM Bear Tank is simply OP right now and there is no other way around it. I don't know why people don't see it but this is nothing special with this encounter...It is a general imbalance among tanks that is just revealed with this encounter right now and needs to be dealt asap.

They are simply scaled way too much when going from Lvl 108 to lvl 118, to the point where it's morale is approx x3 times of an end game tank. A pet with 3 times the morale of an end game tank can achieve and on top of this, is able to ignore knockbacks and some other mechanics...If you don't see any problem with this, you are clearly biased and now this encounter just proved you wrong. People figured out their OPness and now are abusing it to be able to tank a boss where no other class can tank. They also ignore mechanics of the fight by doing it. This is a serious issue and needs to be fixed right now. Otherwise expect to see more future encounters where people will think about abusing the LM Bear tanking again...

Btw, there is nothing wrong with LM bear tanking. The issue is their OP defences compared to other tanks. Reduce their morale to approx. 1/3th of what they have right now and always keep them at similar morale pool as the other tanks can achieve, then we would have no problem. Also it's ridiculous to hear from people they need 360k+ morale pets for the landscape...LOL

The LM Bear change obviously doesn't solve the problem at hand with Naerband yet. The particular boss fight still needs to be nerfed as well so that any other tank class can stand and tank the boss and not just LM Bear...

My main is my minstrel, my second character is a guardian, I don't group that much with my LM, but I am fond of him and he is my oldest character and have played him on and off since the inception of the game. I don't raid with my LM because I find the yellow playstyle to be boring, my only interest is to ensure he is fun to play and is viable solo for landscaping, dailies, etc.

I don't enjoy this new instance, having done it with my Guardian. Putting the bullet into the bear isn't going to alter the encounter to make it any less ridiculous than it already is. I couldn't give a #### if the devs hard coded that this boss to auto one-shots any LM's pet, go for it.

This talk about the bear being great tank in any circumstance makes it look like you don't know #### about tanking, know nothing about Lore-masters, or both. Go do Rakothas with a bear, oh, one 70sec cooldown force taunt isn't going to cut it. How about the Mumaks... hmmm, kiting with a bear isn't going to work. Pick up the adds, oh no ae abilities, no ae taunt. Great tank.

It's just a dumb single-target meat shield.

This dumb fight has hit the lottery, it uses knockbacks with the major source of the boss' untankable damage output, it has nothing you need to actively avoid, no telegraphed abilities, no things on the ground that will kill you, it is a dumb fight, with dumb mechanics and poorly thought out abilities, the reality is that Talath Urui trash mobs are more scary to the bear than that boss is.

Don't make an idiot out of yourself and judge everything based on this fight, it is a horrible metric.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

This dumb fight has hit the lottery, it uses knockbacks with the major source of the boss' untankable damage output, it has nothing you need to actively avoid, no telegraphed abilities, no things on the ground that will kill you, it is a dumb fight, with dumb mechanics and poorly thought out abilities, the reality is that Talath Urui trash mobs are more scary to the bear than that boss is.

Just for my own idle curiosity, not that I am ever going to run this instance other than if it ever gets added to the FI roster mind, but how does the tank actively mitigate against this knockback? There's no means for the tank or the party to stop it or reduce the impact of it?

[Cordovan]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

[siipperi]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

Cordovan, only mechanic to do tank swapping is -100% threat, which we can 100% counter with guardian tank with perma force taunt. This is not what we are discussing and if that was devs answer for this they don't know what we are discussing either... However it's good that they are planning on changing the boss playable. On same update please remove 1/3rd of trash. It's too much.

[Marxlne]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

Thanks for chiming in Cordovan but please don't just reduce last bosses outgoing damage (which i'm afraid you're planning to do). It's not going to fix the instance. My suggestions are:

1. Reduce the Flame-Spirits/Flame-Wraiths numbers by 50% after the first boss
2. Only reduce last boss's damage, leave first boss and trash's damage as it is, these are fine right now.
3. Fix blue-line LM bear. It is right now way too OP and if you only nerf final boss, people will not change their tactics but it just becomes more easier to exploit. Right now easiest to do this fight is with 2 LM bear pets. It's doable with 1 pet too, but healer have to heal the pet. If you only nerf boss then probably broken bear can even "tank" it without heals thus making the instance even more broken. This boss fight actually has a potential to be a lot of fun, but when people are exploiting it with LM pet, half the mechanics are discarded. Also, if you leave the pet as it is right now, chances are there's going to be problems in the upcoming raid and future instances too.
4. And finally, add some unique loot to the T2C chest. Chances for some gold jewelry peace or something like that would be awesome. Right now people have no desire to run this instance more then once.

[Gandalphor]

Thanks for chiming in Cordovan but please don't just reduce last bosses outgoing damage (which i'm afraid you're planning to do). It's not going to fix the instance. My suggestions are:

1. Reduce the Flame-Spirits/Flame-Wraiths numbers by 50% after the first boss
2. Only reduce last boss's damage, leave first boss and trash's damage as it is, these are fine right now.
3. Fix blue-line LM bear. It is right now way too OP and if you only nerf final boss, people will not change their tactics but it just becomes more easier to exploit. Right now easiest to do this fight is with 2 LM bear pets. It's doable with 1 pet too, but healer have to heal the pet. If you only nerf boss then probably broken bear can even "tank" it without heals thus making the instance even more broken. This boss fight actually has a potential to be a lot of fun, but when people are exploiting it with LM pet, half the mechanics are discarded. Also, if you leave the pet as it is right now, chances are there's going to be problems in the upcoming raid and future instances too.
4. And finally, add some unique loot to the T2C chest. Chances for some gold jewelry peace or something like that would be awesome. Right now people have no desire to run this instance more then once.

I can sign this and add that the range of the damage flame spirits do when they explode should be smaller.

[Host-]

I can sign this and add that the range of the damage flame spirits do when they explode should be smaller.

The range does not need to be decreased. Decreasing the range would mean we would be able to blast them without a care of the consequences. The issue is the amount of adds in that area that needs to be decreased

[Gandalphor]

The range does not need to be decreased. Decreasing the range would mean we would be able to blast them without a care of the consequences. The issue is the amount of adds in that area that needs to be decreased

I'm not saying it needs to be 1m, but it does need to be under the mini's AoE range. I didn't get to really measure it, but it does feel like it's 20m.

[Denhith]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

Why would you place a tank-swapping mechanic in a 6-man dungeon--which historically has a 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 DPS/Support structure? Wouldn't it make more sense for that mechanic to be in a 12-man dungeon that runs with 2 tanks?

/shrug.

[Phindecano]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

Another try to put a brave face on a sorry business?

Tell us truth: there are broken mechanics there and no one worked on the instance since Beta 1. Literally, none of the devs touched 6man balance since it appeared on Bullroarer. Oh, probably someone fixed the levers - that's all. All the feedback provided during open testing was fully ignored. And for your interest this instance is not hard, it's just malfunctioning.

The whole instance cluster is laughable. Only one working 3man instance, awful loot (same loottable for 3man and 6man with crazy RNG) and a broken 6man that probably won't be fixed until raid is released. And it costs 40-130$? Meh.

[Zvim666]

One of the intended mechanics is to encourage tank swapping, but we have been reading people's feedback, and may make T2 easier in a future update.

Firstly, tanks can't realistically tank the boss in either T1 or T2. He hits way too hard, healers can't heal through the damage.

Secondly, I would seriously recommend against requiring 2 tanks for a 6 player instance. If you need 2 tanks, 1 healer, 1 LM then there is very limited scope for everyone else to find a group to the instance.

[Zvim666]

Just for my own idle curiosity, not that I am ever going to run this instance other than if it ever gets added to the FI roster mind, but how does the tank actively mitigate against this knockback? There's no means for the tank or the party to stop it or reduce the impact of it?

There are no ways to mitigate it as far as I am aware. At present the only workable strategies are avoiding being in range of the attack, either through ping-ponging the boss or using a bear to tank it away from the ranged dps... which doesn't do much for melee dps who aren't typically invited to this instance because being in melee range in general in this instance is bad for your longevity.

This isn't solely a T2 issue, it is not like you can face tank this guy in T1. It is just a lot worse in T2. The intent and design of the fight is at core the heart of the problem.

It doesn't really matter if blue bears are significantly nerfed, LMs can chain summon the bears, reducing their morale pool will do nothing other than require 2 LMs rather than 1 so they can create a congo line of sacrificial bears. Or it will require 2 guardians, either way, it places huge limitations on the makeup of a successful group and the skillset required to complete it. If you look at the videos of people doing the fight, these are groups put together by raiding kins, it isn't indicative of the capability of the average player and I find a lot of the feedback disingenuous in terms of where this encounter needs to be for the community in general.

I can appreciate they are looking to create a unique challenge and as much as I love a challenge, not sure I would want to do it over and over in the manner in which 6 man instances are typically run. This instance is far more difficult and less forgiving than Thrones, not sure this is the best thing for the game imo. If you would poll the players and ask if you wanted raid level difficulty for 6 man instancing it would be as popular as the black plague.