Let’s Discuss Monster Play

[XPICTO]

A single post like maybe once every 2 weeks might inspire confidence or give the illusion peoples concerns are being heard. Communication is important if you want this part of the game to survive.

I think peoples illusions about being heard are something are long gone. But I was thinking the same - after the "breaking news" post there has been silence for a month and a half.

[DrRabbitfoot]

almost exclusively reaver too

What server? Haven't played in years now except to check in every few months. Ark hasn't changed one bit. Dominated on both sides by shufflers with no interest in PvP. What a shame. This game was so amazing 10+ years ago and even after a decade of neglect, it still could be.

[J-Moneyforever]

What server? Haven't played in years now except to check in every few months. Ark hasn't changed one bit. Dominated on both sides by shufflers with no interest in PvP. What a shame. This game was so amazing 10+ years ago and even after a decade of neglect, it still could be.

I actually don't 100% agree. Definitely lots of shufflers but there's some decent group leaders out there now. And most importantly to me I've managed to find a decent number of roamers. Big shout out to people who actually roam just to find fights outside of groups. Unfortunate how abysmal balance is atm but the fights are fun. Definitely rekindled my interest in playing

[dasc]

Whilst I welcome a discussion on improving PvP, the fact that there is an unassailable elephant in the room, lag. This has been going on for months now. How can anyone take prospective tweaks seriously whilst at Craid/Fraid numbers (and often less) the game is virtually/completely unplayable. Sort this out soon or one can only imagine most long-term PvPers will have left. Obviously many already have. I log in less now because of it. I am a VIP at present. I rarely play PvE. Demonstrate some commitment to the PvP offering or stop pretending and ditch it in one fell swoop rather than let it fail slowly. Thanks for listening.

[XPICTO]

Oh, btw Orion, if you do not plan to revert back the range of freep skills better close moors. GY/Grams used to be a safe spot before, now is a joke getting nuked in the middle of the circle.

[JonXu]

I think peoples illusions about being heard are something are long gone. But I was thinking the same - after the "breaking news" post there has been silence for a month and a half.

I Suspect is time to vote with my wallet, unsubscribe and play free on not play at all

[Overtone]

Let’s Discuss Monster Play
Now let us get to the crux of the conversation. What is the future of Monster Play?

Having delved into the history maintained in the forum, I can see where some measure of that wariness roots. A player base as invested as you are fiercely defensive of what you have and what you want. Minor adjustments to existing problems when the perception is only bold changes can address the issues ring hollow and worse, seem dispassionate to a player base that is driven by passion.

Welcome back Orion and thank you for caring about PvMP. I remember you from back in the day but I think your forum name was slightly different.

I too am returning from a long LOTRO PvP lay-off. Used to pretty much live in the Moors, both Creep and Freep. That was then (the first 2-3 years of the game). Now it's a complete ghost town, both on Landy (where I Freep) and on Brandy (where I Creep). Back in the day, those servers had round-the-clock action. Pretty disappointing but I'm not surprised. There is absolutely no incentive for a Freep to go out there and gearing up for end-game PvE is a tedious grind. If no Freeps, there will be no Creeps, especially considering the Creep PvE grind is brutally boring now as well with scant reward.

Where we go from here is based on minor adjustments with perceptible and measurable impact, coupled with a potentially bold action if I can convince Raninia of its potential value and then it delivers on that value. (Side note: Thus far, Raninia is open to the bold action I am suggesting.)

Whatever changes you make, all decisions should be based on this corollary: The success to participation in the Moors is all about getting Freeps to show up. Bring Freeps and the Creeps will follow.

Now if you want to consider minor adjustments, I recommend thinking about what made the best times in the Moors great. Firstly, the best times for me occurred when only one set of endgame gear was needed. Having to grind two separate sets of endgame gear straight blows and is a huge barrier for most people. It's an even more daunting task for Alts. You want to make an easy change that will increase PvP participation? Remove barriers on gear and make it possible to grind endgame gear in the Moors (i.e. give Embers as rewards instead of Commendations).

If you want to maintain a gear grind, you could do so by using Essences. As a veteran player my gear builds and skill rotations were always dramatically different from my endgame PvE builds and rotations. Offer grindable Essences that would amplify PvP performance. Like PvE endgamers, PvPers are min-maxers and will absolutely grind for the best of the best if it's available.

Secondly, improve server performance. I know there have already been many passes at this and you guys have done what you can. It's pretty bare bones out there as it is. But there are times out there, just doing the PvE quests, where there are performance hiccups. Further improvement in performance would be great.

Above are two super simple minor adjustments you could make to get more people out to the Moors.

Here are my thoughts regarding your suggestions:

Camp Relocation – Orc and Elf

Tol Ascarnen is the central fort and what should be the main battle location in the Ettenmoors. The EC and OC camps were crucial fallback and push positions that actively contributed to the battle space. I am considering moving these camps back to0 their original locations.

I don't think this would make a bit of difference honestly. I remember when EC was at the TA bridge and it really stagnated gameplay. Moving the camps was a good idea.

The Delving of Frór

By removing the active effort needed to access The Delving we removed a crucial set of battle points in the Ettenmoors and just made the underground haven another place to ambush players and monster players. The loot within diminished in value and while updated somewhat has lost some relevance. Additionally, there are no secondary end game reasons to enter the Delving.

To address this, I am proposing the following:

• Restore the Coldfells Outpost at the south center of the map.
• Restore the requirement that at least two outposts must be under control to access The Delving of Frór.
• Update and add corruptions to monster play advancement to bring them in line with players. Place the barter items necessary for these new corruptions into the Delving loot system.
• Update the barter rewards for the players in the delving to include itemization relevant to end game out of the ‘moors and update to other important end game treasure lines.
• Give meaning to outpost status – player, monster player, and neutral owned within The Delving of Frór.

I think any changes introduced to make DoF relevant again would be great. I don't think you need to do anything extensive or complicated. Adding some dailies would do the trick there, both player kill and mob kill oriented quests would work. The close-quarters combat down there was so fun when that area came out. Once people get a taste of it, I think it could become routine.

I vaguely recall when DoF was first released that there was some sort of special item that could only be farmed down there. Players came in droves to get it. As I stated above, put endgame incentives in the area and the players will come.

Keep and Tower Revision

Battles in the Ettenmoors revolve around keep and tower ownership. The NPCs in the towers hold importance but their abundance and the scripting involved in handling their reactions is a likely contributor to performance concerns. An adjustment will reduce the number of defenders but increase their difficulty commensurately. The halo effect here will provide more opportune moments for counter offensives.

I'm 100% for any change that improves performance. I will say you would need to do some significant rebalancing on mobs. Last night I was in a group that flipped the entire map red on our Creeps. We only needed three players to do it, a War Leader and two Reavers. It's just as easy Freepside with a tank/healer/dps setup.

Healing Modifiers

Healing prolongs battles and undermines the competitive nature of fights. There is no silver bullet in “fixing” this. My intent would be applying an Ettenmoors only effect that reduces the incoming healing to drive combats to a swifter conclusion. Dynamic implementation allows us to modify this effect without waiting for a patch to make the change.

Actually, I always preferred longer fights, both Raid and 1v1. They were always the most fun and satisfying. I also understand that balancing is a difficult thing to do. Since I haven't participated in any serious combat since returning to the Moors (only killed a few Freeps here and there), I can't even tell where the status of balance currently rests.

Just my two cents. Take it for what you will. I'm also a bit late to the thread so you may not see this.

One other thing, and other players can help me out with this. What is the best server for PvMP right now? Sad to say but Landy and Brandy are garbage now. Small group action is my preferred playstyle. Thanks in advance.

[XPICTO]

Whatever changes you make, all decisions should be based on this corollary: The success to participation in the Moors is all about getting Freeps to show up. Bring Freeps and the Creeps will follow.

Now if you want to consider minor adjustments, I recommend thinking about what made the best times in the Moors great. Firstly, the best times for me occurred when only one set of endgame gear was needed. Having to grind two separate sets of endgame gear straight blows and is a huge barrier for most people. It's an even more daunting task for Alts. You want to make an easy change that will increase PvP participation? Remove barriers on gear and make it possible to grind endgame gear in the Moors (i.e. give Embers as rewards instead of Commendations).

If you want to maintain a gear grind, you could do so by using Essences. As a veteran player my gear builds and skill rotations were always dramatically different from my endgame PvE builds and rotations. Offer grindable Essences that would amplify PvP performance. Like PvE endgamers, PvPers are min-maxers and will absolutely grind for the best of the best if it's available.

Secondly, improve server performance. I know there have already been many passes at this and you guys have done what you can. It's pretty bare bones out there as it is. But there are times out there, just doing the PvE quests, where there are performance hiccups. Further improvement in performance would be great.

Above are two super simple minor adjustments you could make to get more people out to the Moors.

That would encourage even more freep zerg trains and Grams will be 24/7 rather than peak times only. PVE and PVP should be kept separate or it will never be balanced and fun experience.

[Overtone]

That would encourage even more freep zerg trains and Grams will be 24/7 rather than peak times only. PVE and PVP should be kept separate or it will never be balanced and fun experience.

What server are you on? I would LOVE to see a Freep train while Creeping. I've seen just two Freeps in a week in the zone on BW. From what I've gathered so far reading comments, Arkenstone is where it's at now for PvMP. Is that correct?

Also, the more Freeps, the more Creeps. If you build it for Freeps, they will come. Then the Creeps will have something to do other than circle-jerking.

Additionally, why are you being Grams camped? You can map out at anytime to anywhere on the map. Are the Creeps on your server bad? Seriously.

[XPICTO]

What server are you on? I would LOVE to see a Freep train while Creeping. I've seen just two Freeps in a week in the zone on BW. From what I've gathered so far reading comments, Arkenstone is where it's at now for PvMP. Is that correct?

Also, the more Freeps, the more Creeps. If you build it for Freeps, they will come. Then the Creeps will have something to do other than circle-jerking.

Additionally, why are you being Grams camped? You can map out at anytime to anywhere on the map. Are the Creeps on your server bad? Seriously.

In case you want to meet the freep trains - welcome to Evernight. Majority of the peak times - keeps are blue (being flipped by the train), 4X ops are blue (they get flipped about 1minute after being red), dof is blue (unless creeps manage to ninja the tree, rest is refreshed by the train). Aside from the train there is a constant Grams-Lug ping pong.
If you port out of grams you either find the train or champs.
Being bad and being heavily underpowered are two different things.
Oh and forgot to mention - 24 freeps and 24 creeps are able to completely freeze everything is a big radius.

[Thorandril]

What server? Haven't played in years now except to check in every few months. Ark hasn't changed one bit. Dominated on both sides by shufflers with no interest in PvP. What a shame. This game was so amazing 10+ years ago and even after a decade of neglect, it still could be.

The only difference now vs. then is a direct result of them changing the map geography to what it is now. I don't know how anyone forgets that it was a shuffle fest before. Arkenstone isn't that bad, granted player quality isn't the best the game is still generally fun unless you're playing a reaver or warg. Neglect is killing it more than anything, after the 140 expansion and changes made by Fantus it was booming for quite awhile.


They've never come even close to competent balancing, which past a point I don't think most players cared too much about. Noone wants to continue to invest time in what feels like a dead end, though.

[LabadalofDorlomin]

I think everyone now knows and if you don't you should, that the EM needs closing and if they are serious about pvp it needs to be reborn.

Whether that means that creeps are retired and new creeps designed based on the Freep model with all the scalability or Freeps need to be retired from the moor and new characters designed on the creep model.

In that way we become separate from the PVE world entirely and both pvp and pve can have their own design timelines and neither one interferes in the other.

It would need some investment but once it is completed, there shouldn't be much to control or change as the moors doesn't need to match the pve level structure or any issues with regards to DPS, target distances or huge healing etc.

Everything could be pared back.

[Thorandril]

I think everyone now knows and if you don't you should, that the EM needs closing and if they are serious about pvp it needs to be reborn.

Whether that means that creeps are retired and new creeps designed based on the Freep model with all the scalability or Freeps need to be retired from the moor and new characters designed on the creep model.

In that way we become separate from the PVE world entirely and both pvp and pve can have their own design timelines and neither one interferes in the other.

It would need some investment but once it is completed, there shouldn't be much to control or change as the moors doesn't need to match the pve level structure or any issues with regards to DPS, target distances or huge healing etc.

Everything could be pared back.

I don't really understand posts like this at all. You've had 15 years to see a pattern, and you still think a complete redesign should happen? Give it like 10 seconds of serious thought and if you have to use the phrase "will require investment" in a serious context, probably reconsider the entire suggestion or idea.

[XPICTO]

I don't really understand posts like this at all. You've had 15 years to see a pattern, and you still think a complete redesign should happen? Give it like 10 seconds of serious thought and if you have to use the phrase "will require investment" in a serious context, probably reconsider the entire suggestion or idea.

It was pretty clear that complete redesign is not in the cards. But at least we could have had any feedback as its almost 2 months since the promise for changes, but all we got was producer letter where PVMP is not mentioned at all and they are planning to milk people with hobbit LM and dwarf captains.

[SSG_Orion]

It was pretty clear that complete redesign is not in the cards. But at least we could have had any feedback as its almost 2 months since the promise for changes, but all we got was producer letter where PVMP is not mentioned at all and they are planning to milk people with hobbit LM and dwarf captains.

Yes, I have been quiet. However, don't let my quiet or lack of mention in the Producer Letter dishearten you. Remember, not everything that is happening necessarily makes it into the producer letter. I can tell you. I have been making changes and that those changes will be headed toward Bullroarer soon. While everything that I wanted to get done will not make this round there are significant changes on the very near horizon.

I hope, when the notes get released, you see where I am looking to take things.

[Askelin]

Yes, I have been quiet. However, don't let my quiet or lack of mention in the Producer Letter dishearten you. Remember, not everything that is happening necessarily makes it into the producer letter. I can tell you. I have been making changes and that those changes will be headed toward Bullroarer soon. While everything that I wanted to get done will not make this round there are significant changes on the very near horizon.

I hope, when the notes get released, you see where I am looking to take things.

have we got an ETA on this bullroarer? Like next week or something? Or is it not entirely set in stone just yet?

[SingularityNow]

Yes, I have been quiet. However, don't let my quiet or lack of mention in the Producer Letter dishearten you. Remember, not everything that is happening necessarily makes it into the producer letter. I can tell you. I have been making changes and that those changes will be headed toward Bullroarer soon. While everything that I wanted to get done will not make this round there are significant changes on the very near horizon.

I hope, when the notes get released, you see where I am looking to take things.

If you did 3 things, I hope they are moving EC and OC back to their original positions; I never experienced this personally but so many people seem to be in favor out it I want to see it. Getting rid of auto flips. And doing something about Audacity. The geniuses that conned previous unsuspecting devs into giving freeps equal gear made it so every freep is now hard as heck to kill instead of just a small minority and the 6k per rank of audacity for the last 10 ranks on creepside is just insane.

[Askelin]

If you did 3 things, I hope they are moving EC and OC back to their original positions; I never experienced this personally but so many people seem to be in favor out it I want to see it. Getting rid of auto flips. And doing something about Audacity. The geniuses that conned previous unsuspecting devs into giving freeps equal gear made it so every freep is now hard as heck to kill instead of just a small minority and the 6k per rank of audacity for the last 10 ranks on creepside is just insane.

The coming Bullroarer will relate to the audacity rework that Orion has been working on finishing.
There'll likely be more coming too or soon, but that's what we know so far.

[SSG_Orion]

If you did 3 things, I hope they are moving EC and OC back to their original positions; I never experienced this personally but so many people seem to be in favor out it I want to see it. Getting rid of auto flips. And doing something about Audacity. The geniuses that conned previous unsuspecting devs into giving freeps equal gear made it so every freep is now hard as heck to kill instead of just a small minority and the 6k per rank of audacity for the last 10 ranks on creepside is just insane.

I did not get to EC and OC. Autoflips seems to be a really strange bug that I am still chasing.

Audcity changes are indeed in the works along with more.

[Cordovan]

have we got an ETA on this bullroarer? Like next week or something? Or is it not entirely set in stone just yet?

We'll have more information soon, but it could even be this week.

[XPICTO]

Yes, I have been quiet. However, don't let my quiet or lack of mention in the Producer Letter dishearten you. Remember, not everything that is happening necessarily makes it into the producer letter. I can tell you. I have been making changes and that those changes will be headed toward Bullroarer soon. While everything that I wanted to get done will not make this round there are significant changes on the very near horizon.

I hope, when the notes get released, you see where I am looking to take things.

Good to hear, hope we wont get disappointed when notes get released too

[LabadalofDorlomin]

I did not get to EC and OC. Autoflips seems to be a really strange bug that I am still chasing.

Audcity changes are indeed in the works along with more.

It is a shame but this was my fear. You clearly have a mission (which is better than nothing) but nearly all folks have asked for OC/EC and the autoflips and I am hoping that your original statement regarding engaging the DoF hasn't clouded your judgement and you are only putting in place things that will see your vision for the DoF take hold because this is the last thing that true PVPrs need... more PVE in the PVP zones.

Hopefully, you are concentrating on Keep revisions and the Strength of NPC in said Keeps. Also, the fact that freeps can reach safe zones with their skills now. But, OC/EC should have been the first thing to address the GV/Gms flip flop.

[LinRaN]

I'm not fan of stupid questions and usually when people asking to add new creep classes its annoying for me. But i feel now its my turn.

I was triyng to find on the forum discussion about this idea, but i havent found.

My SQ: What devs thinking about make rank system / lvls seasonal? I can imagine what a strike it gonna be for old rank 15 players, but it gonna make ranks more "alive", isnt it?

[SSG_Orion]

I'm not fan of stupid questions and usually when people asking to add new creep classes its annoying for me. But i feel now its my turn.

I was triyng to find on the forum discussion about this idea, but i havent found.

My SQ: What devs thinking about make rank system / lvls seasonal? I can imagine what a strike it gonna be for old rank 15 players, but it gonna make ranks more "alive", isnt it?

We've got no plans to make rank a seasonal cycle.

[istvana]

>We've got no plans to make rank a seasonal cycle.>

Too bad - that would reduce an enormous barrier to entry by newer players though admittedly it would also reduce the incentive to gain rank.