Questions Over Lore

[amien]

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

Thats it.... for now I'm sure more will come, though so subscribe!

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

[someenigma]

My personal thoughts are that Gandalf didn't just want to be the "hero". He wasn't in Middle Earth to save it himself, he was there to guide the free peoples to victory. That's why he didn't "take on" anything in particular himself, but instead rallied the troops.

I'd guess that Saruman beats Gandalf in FotR because Saruman has allied with Sauron which gives him confidence/strength. However Sauron is definitely "stronger" than Gandalf.

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

[amien]

I'm not sure which "elven king" you are talking about, I didn't think that many Balrogs died, and the Balrogs were essentially corrupted Maiar so (roughly) on an even level with Gandalf.

I had thought that the Balrogs were demons morgoth either "Found" or created?

I also thought that each Valar only had a few Maiar each (There are only 5 wizards), were there many of them?

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth. Although he very well might have been cutting through dragons instead of Balrogs, I just remember being astounded at his strength after reading it.

[jakobjaks]

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

[amien]

The wizards al came in the same time to Middle-Earth and gandalf lost the battle because then he was still Gandalf the Grey but later he is more powerful. And the lost to the Witch King was just because witch king is more powerful than him!

That's my question, Gandalf is Maiar to the most powerful Valar, even if he "The Grey".
And no, the Witch King was just a corrupted man from a fraction of power from Sauron. Gandalf was something closer to an angel so he was extremely powerful. Gandalf would have turned him into a paper weight, which is why the two never meet in the books. That's why they also took that scene out of the extended version of RotK.

[Lothic]

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

[amien]

Take what I say with a grain of salt...it's been a while for me too...



Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog...I'm thinking Gandalf was so spent after the fall and in being such close proximity to a foe of such immense physical strength that he just didn't have the strength to carry on



I think it's more to do with WHAT you are. And the 'whats' are usually immortal or extremely long lived.



I always thought that Saruman was Gandalf's senior in all things...hence a more powerful wizard.

Thanks for clearing that up! Not even wizards can make for a soft landing after falling many many leagues :P

All it ever calls Sauron is that he was one of Morgoths lieutenant, I think actually his primary Lieutenant, but that would definitely make sense. I always thought that the Maiars' power were directly related to their "boss". and Morgoth was extremely powerful.

[Grindl]

Sauron started out as a Maia of Aule, as was Saruman.

The Balrogs were corrupted Maia as well.

Saruman was the Chief of the Istari (Wizards), even Gandalf states this.

[RJFerret]

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria?

Huh? He defeats the Balrog, although he himself is practically defeated in the effort. According to the lotr wiki, Tolkien's son says there are never more than seven balrog.

A couple of the coolest parts of this game are seeing the results of that battle in a couple locations of Moria.

It also says Gandalf is a Maiar chosen by the Valar to aid people of Middle Earth.

Balrog were Maiar seduced by Morgroth. Meanwhile Morgroth was apparently the mightiest of the Ainur. Considering 14 Valar were opposing him, it seems he was mighty indeed.

BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Define power. Sauron as the lieutenant of Morgroth, had been there longer, build up power longer, had a more powerful leader. Gandalf and Radaghast and Saruman and the others were not sent to directly confront Sauron, a pointless endeavor as the races would then be powerless against future foes/uprisings/returns. They were sent to shepherd the races in their own endeavors to grow and flourish and turn aside the tide of evil. Meanwhile, they were all out of their element, cast in corporeal bodies, in a foreign world, with limited tools, whereas Sauron had been amassing and exploiting power for a long time.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR?

What makes you believe Saruman is more powerful? They have different powers/roles. Saruman's strength is his influence with words and guile. He was sent as the chief of the five Istari, and had studied Sauron more. Apparently Saruman's name means "man of skill".

How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Uruk-hai

They are orcs on steroids, and orcs are a corruption of elves.

BTW, have you heard of the LotR wiki? http://lotr.wikia.com ;-)



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

[Norliriel]

I don't know the Elven King's name, but I want to say his daughter was taken prisoner or something happened to his kin by Morgoth, he made a valiant last stand at the gates of Angband and I think the King was even able to wound Morgoth.

The Elven King you're thinking of is Fingolfin. His daughter (Aredhel) had been dead for over a century at the time, so it had nothing to do with her, rather Fingolfin's rage and despair was triggered by the losses the Elves suffered in the Battle of Sudden Flame, which included his nephews, Aegnor and Angrod.

[SuaronTehMighty]

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

[Reniannen]

The Wizards were indeed powerful but they were forbidden from using their powers directly. They were sent to help, not to fight Sauron (which might have worked but the last time Valar waged war a good chunk of the continent sunk under the sea, they were not going to risk it again; plus it wouldn't help the people if you do everything for them).

It's worth mentioning that the Wizards are not some subspecies of Maiar, they were regular Maiar chosen by the Valar and then they've become Wizards, which is the name others gave them.

[CaptDarkstar]

My understanding was the 5 wizards were sent to guide and motivate the free people of Middle Earth against Sauron. They were to do so without using force or overpowering people (so nerfed in a way). Saruman broke the rules when he tried to take dominion over men and had his power taken from him. Each wizard was a fraction of their true power as a Miar, the last time the valar got to heavily involved half the world sank into the ocean and they decided to not directly be involved again so sent the wizards as stated above.
The balrog was totally struck down while only Gandalf's mortal frame was broken.

[Areya121]

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

[silverblade5445]

I always thought Gandalf was pretty gimp in terms of battle power, so he didnt take on 1 on 1 Saurun or Saruman and was struggling eith the balrog (and maybe teh witch king? I dont remember that from the books). His strength was as a stretegist, pulling all the strings and making sure people were at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing.

Gandalf, aka Olorin as his name was when he was a Maia, was the wisest Maia in the order of Manwe.....when Sauron spread his dominion over Middle Earth, 5 Maia were selected to gather the free people of middle earth together and rally and guide them against Sauron....BUT under one specific condition....they were not to engage Sauron directly in a battle of power.....under no circumstances.....and this is because, in earlier Ages when the Valar directly interfered in the matters of mortals, some really bad incidents happened.....so the Valar no longer want to get involved directly.....otherwise it wouldve taken Tulkas or any Vala just about a minute to come to Middle Earth, whup Sauron's butt and destroy him.....but they dint want to do it....But even despite that, they did want to help the free people's against Sauron.....hence the 5 Istari were sent to Middle Earth.....and amongst them Gandalf was the most unwilling one, he considered his skill mostly in wisdom than anything else.....

to the OP :

Balrogs are Maiar who were servants of Morgoth, just as Sauron was....so they were as strong as Gandalf if not more....hence the almost close fight between Gandalf and the Balrog in Moria in which Gandalf died because of a DoT after he defeated the Balrog

And as you say Gandalf was of the order of Manwe, leader of the valar, true.....but you forget that Sauron, was the servant of Morgoth, aka Melkor, the most powerful of the Ainur, who fought 14 Vala.....hence Sauron is bound to be more powerful.....

Also the elven king you mentioned, Fingolfin, as well as many others of the Eldar were so strong because in earlier days, they were taught and had direct contact with the Valar.....they had lived in Aman (the Blessed Realm) itself which gave them some really superior powers and skill....and they were not restrained like the Istari were in their actions.....hence he could face off against Morgoth, one of the strongest Ainur, and even wound him.....some even in the Third Age possessed immense power of that sort.....like Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan....not as much as Fingolfin ofcourse, but enough....

And its not exactly about how old one is, but rather it seems so because the oldest ones have lived in the Blessed Realm and whoever has done that, usually is pretty much very strong and skilled....hence its so that some of the oldest people in Middle Earth are also the strongest....Theyre beacons of hope in the way Frodo sees Glorfindel on the Ford of Bruinen......all else grows dim but Glorfindel looks like a shining figure.....so will the others.....

And the Gandalf - Witch King scene in the extended edition of RoTK is THE MOST lore breaking scene in the entire movies franchise imo.... If they had faced off, Gandalf couldve annihilated the Witch King, but then again, he was forbidden to battle Sauron directly, and facing off with his main Lieutenant would pretty much come under that....hence Tolkien has very smartly avoided that confrontation in the books...

And Saruman is Saruman the White, because he had been voted and chosen as the leader of the Council by all the Wise....he is not particularly stronger than Gandalf.....not by default anyways, but Saruman had studied the tactics and skills of the enemy itself, his affinity was more towards to powerful aspects of magic while Gandalf was more aligned towards knowledge and wisdom....

And finally, Saruman's Uruk Hai could slaughter the orcs from Moria because he had created a hybrid sort of orc.....being one of the Istari, he no doubt achieved further corruption by making a hybrid of men and orcs.....which were stronger than the original orcs who were merely corrupted elves.....Sauron had some really strong orcs in his service too....its not the orcs of Mordor that are shown to be the weaker ones in the book...its the orcs from Moria who had come to avenge their leader....they were the weak and cowardly lot.....Grishnakh's and Ugluk's band of Mordor and Isengard orcs respectively were the strongest in that group....

[silverblade5445]

As for which of the Istari(Maiar) belonged to which Valar - Saruman (and also Sauron's) Valar was Aule the Smith.

Gandalf was of Nienna, the Vala of Mercy.
and Radagast was of Yavanna, the Vala of Nature and animals.
Im not sure of the Blue Wizards but i think one of them at least was Manwe's.

Gandalf lived in the tutelage and gardens of Nienna, but he was one of the people of Manwe....

[Haunt123]

Gandalf himself said to Denethor that ".. one has come whom even I feared", referring to the Witch-King. I'm not saying that the WK had any chance to beat Gandalf, it's just that it would not have been an easy battle for Gandalf. Say, 4/5 the difficulty of the Balrog, since the WK also had his other Nazgul to aid him if he started losing. And 100k orcs. Even Wizards aren't immune to ZERG.

Glorfindel himself slew 3 Balrogs in the First Age. Chris Tolkien said that the Balrogs were in a pretty weak stage then, and Durin's Bane was a particularly strong Balrog by the Third Age.

Saruman was way more powerful than Gandalf, as Gandalf didn't have the symbolic power of the "leader" (And hence, couldn't throw Wizards out of the Order, break staffs, etc."

Uruks and Orcs are THE SAME... Saruman's Uruks were exceptionally powerful, that's all. Not all Orcs are corrupted Elves, there weren't many Elves to corrupt, you see. The first Orcs definitely were, but the rest diminished in power as they were "bred".

[Berephon]

Hello all! First off I want to let you all know that I have read the books, but its been a LONG time and I never finished the Silmarillion.

Any-who...

First off, I'll mention that I haven't read anything but the OP, so someone else has likely already brought all this up.

The Istari (wizards) were sent in full mortal form for the very purpose of keeping them from getting a "god" mentality. They were vulnerable to mortal death.

Gandalf did not lose to the Balrog...he defeated the Balrog, but died in the process. He was sent back, however (still in mortal form.)

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

To put the power of certain creatures in perspective, when Gandalf escaped (who Saruman was actually holding for the Nazgûl), Saruman felt great terror, because he knew the Nine were more powerful than he was. In truth, the Ringwraiths (all nine together, not individually, as they had cumulatively increasing power) were more powerful than the Balrog.

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

[Haunt123]

Oh, and by the way, 7 Balrogs (with Morgoth, and Gothmog probably) were enough to scare Ungoliant off. Hardly anything could scare Ungoliant, not even Morgoth himself.

Even though that doesn't sound as if they are extremely powerful, but remember: Ungoliant easily scared off Morgoth himself. She could easily beat Gandalf and Sauron; even the Valar can't do much against her.

[ararax2]

Saruman was the first of the Istari to come into Middle-earth and was made the head of the Order (as the White, he was the most powerful); however, when he corrupted (back before they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, contrary to what the Hobbit movie is going to portray), he actually began to weaken. Very likely, Gandalf could have actually defied Saruman rather than allow himself to be taken, but remember that Saruman also had vast numbers of Orcs at his disposal, and even Gandalf would not have been able to get through them all.

Well remember that Morgoth decreased in power, not because of his corruption, but because he expended his personal power on his kingdom. Creating Dragons, or Uruk-hai, or creating rings of power, it does cost something. At the end, Morgoth was not the most powerful of the Valar, he had expended too much of his essence on his empire.

And that is just it, by putting his power into his army he can defeat Gandalf with his army, but in the end 1v1 he was no match for Gandalf.

[Yosoff]

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

It would be more accurate that the beings that came first started with more power. An important theme in LOTR is the fading of middle earth. Power in LOTR is finite, you only get so much and the more you use it the weaker you get. Morgoth was only defeated because he used too much of his power and finally became vulnerable to attack. In fact, one of the main reasons Sauron created the ring was to attempt to preserve his power in a way that it would not fade.

[BirdofHermes]

How come Gandalf loses to the Balrog in Moria? The elven king in the Silmarillion cuts down many of them in his rampage into Angband, and Gandalf is a Miar(Spelling)!

He doesn't lose. They kill each other, so it's a tie.
And if by the elven king you mean Feänor, he didn't cut them down, he just fought them for a while, and was in fact killed by them in the end.

Also, it seems like in LOTR, the older you are, the more powerful you are. Hence the Wizards/Sauron/ Galadriel being beacons of hope/dread. Is this an adequate way of looking at things?

It's not the older you are, the more powerful you are. It's just that the more powerful beings tend to either be semi-immortal (Sauron/Wizards) or simply survive longer (Galadriel), hence their age.

I know that in the extended version of RotK, Gandalf gets his butt handed to him by the Witch-king, which is just not right, hence why they took it out :P. BUT I have heard that Gandalf was just as powerful as Sauron, he just didn't really have the confidence to do it.... What do you guys think?

Gandalf was in fact more powerful than the Witch-king, MUCH more powerful. As Gandalf the Grey, he managed to fight the Witch-king and the 8 other Nazgûl all *at the same time*, stalling them for a whole night to give Aragorn and the Hobbits more time to travel without being chased. If he can fight all 9 of them as Gandalf the Grey and still win, imagine what he could do to to just 1 of them as Gandalf the White. Sauron would get 2 still-smoking Nazgûl boots sent back to him.

Why is Saruman more powerful than Gandalf in FotR? I don't know who Saruman's Valar is, but I know Gandalf's is Manwe (The leader of the Valar). Is it because Gandalf has physically lived on Middle-Earth for less time than the other wizards?

No, time has nothing to do with it.
When the Istari were sent to Middle-earth, they were given a mortal body and their power was greatly limited, because their mission was to defeat Sauron not by force, but by aiding the Free Peoples, giving them hope and uniting them. Saruman was chosen to be head of the Istari, and later to be head of White Council, giving him greater power than the others.
However, Galadriel, Cirdan and Elrond perceived Gandalf was the greater, and when he later died and was sent back to replace Saruman as The White, his power limitations seemed to have been lifted to some extent, making him more powerful than Saruman.

New Question:
How come Sauruman's orcs are digging the Uruk-hai like Lurtz out of the Mud? I thought that Uruk-hai were corrupted men, and orcs corrupted elves.

Never believe anything you see in Jackson's movies, they didn't follopw the books veyr well.
Orcs were indeed corrupted Elves. What Uruks were is still not certain, there were two main theories, that they were either a cross-breed of Orcs and Men, or Orcs that Sauron (and later Saruman) had been tinkering with to make them stronger.

[Leonide]

Gandalf was not nearly as powerful as Sauron (at least not Istari form...in Valinor, in his native Maiar form, hevery likely he was.)

I do remember Tolkien saying that Olorin was the wisest of them all.
Plus, some other clues scathered around then to confirm the power of Olorin/Gandalf, such as: the episode of the ring of fire and the One ring (when he refuses it), the resurection by Illuvator himself, etc.

Olorin never real shows his true power, which I believe his greater than any being in Middle-Earth at that point. Including Sauron.

[amien]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

[OldLadyGamer]

Is it ever mentioned what happens to Ungoliant? Wasn't Shelob one of her daughters?

Sort of, and yes.

When they arrived in Lammoth in Middle-earth, Ungoliant demanded the gems that Melkor had stolen from Formenos. She devoured them, and grew larger and darker, and she attacked Melkor when he refused to give her the Silmarils. Melkor's scream is what gave the area the name Lammoth, and when one screams, there is the voice of Melkor that echoes back from the surrounding hills. The immediate arrival of Balrogs freed Morgoth from the evil spider's webs during the Thieves' Quarrel. Driven off by the Balrogs, Ungoliant fled to Nan Dungortheb, where she bred with the creatures there to increase the evil and terror of the great spiders. The creatures that later infested the area were her surviving offspring and descendants, as was her daughter, Shelob, who dwelt on the borders of Mordor. It is said she later went far south, where legend has it, in her last hunger, she devoured herself.

lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ungoliant

Also, feel free to come over to the Tolkein board here, they're wonderful about answering even my silly questions there. ;-)