Character Creation Thoughts

[Derquin]

I look forward to experiment with the new options for my Southrons, Easterlings, Dunlendings etc.

Not so thrilled about the option for the old avatars going away since I use those for almost all my chars. As much as I like to have more options I really hope for some straight long and middle/short hairstyles that do not look like the char has spend hours at the barber but has spend days and weeks out in the wilderness. I use the old avatars because most of the former "new" hair is simply too smooth for my rangers, brigands, farmers etc.

Dirt etc as more details would be appreciated, especially for roleplaying


The eye patch seems to clip right now. Please consider options like blind eye right/left/both and a patch for the other eye, too.


I agree that more sliders for the body appearance are needed.


Last but not least, especially with all that new options, please consider a possibility to save/load an appearance (at creation/at the barber). Right now one can write down the chosen options but to change hair/eye/skin color always seems to lead to a different outcome, however slightly it might be.

[SophieTheEnchantress]

The Standing Stone Games version of Middle Earth was a pretty good one. Over the years, some updates were very problematic, but nothing ever bothered me so much that I could not squint and ignore the worst of it. There is nothing to discuss. This update is a nuclear weapon I cannot ignore.

[TesalionLortus]

The Standing Stone Games version of Middle Earth was a pretty good one. Over the years, some updates were very problematic, but nothing ever bothered me so much that I could not squint and ignore the worst of it. There is nothing to discuss. This update is a nuclear weapon I cannot ignore.

Makes you wonder why they would do that and chase away some players like that. I get expanded customization, that's one thing, and mostly everything could be given proper origins in the lore. But are there really players who can't live without a bearded female in a pseudo-medieval setting and is this somehow crucial to SGG's business model, is that particular choice going to bring in more revenue? I really don't see it, it's so strange.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Did they really add beards for women....

This is about the only thing I don't like with the Avatar update, I know we can chose not to use it, but honestly I would like see no beard options for females.

[SniperCT]

It is likely that this is the less intensive option than adding either new origins or entirely new races. Also less restrictive, which quite frankly is expected now adays. And that's a good thing.

You have many god points and feedback, but its will be immensly lore breaking to give more diversity to the elves. No problem with dwarfs or hobbits.
Im afraid to say anything more, because some of the issues that can challenge SSG on such a change to the elves, can get me banned. They are v e r y sensitive to such.

Not lore breaking at all. Noldor were frequently described as 'dark', which can be taken many ways. Elves who live in the south or east (and we know they existed) would not necessarily look like the elves of the West.

Although I appreciate additional customization options in general, I find some of them lore-breaking at least with Rohan, Breeland and Dale men.

Dale was a melting pot too, tbh. Trade hub and all of that.

Face complexions all look dirty. Every skin colour seems to have a greyish look to it and difficult to find actual human colours.

No natural blond hair colours anymore, just bright yellow.

Agreed on the skin. Disagree on the hair, play around more on the left/middle side of the area, that's where the original blondes were. I also got a gorgeous platinum blonde on one of my rohirrim.

In my opinion, finally the devs made a steer on the right direction! It is not about if i can find some particular choice pretty or not. That is way too subjective & each person can have a different personal preference about it. It is the fact that now they are divided by more categories of customizations & richer sliders. Now that those new sliders exist, the Devs can simply add more marked or softer variations without taking away the few new ones that are on Bullroarer now. It is up to each player to decide how they will make their toon look depending how they envisioned it on their mind. Now we are a step closer to be able to more accurately reflect them. At the moment, it is only tested on humans, can't wait to see those sliders released on hobbitses, dwarfs & elfs as well!

Exactly!

I like the idea of more options.

The only thing I am hoping is that my characters still look the way they did when I created them originally. I'd hate to log in to the Bull Roar server and see the character I created no longer looks the way I created them.

Depends. I copied all of mine over and they look as they always did. I don't use the old avatars though, I've been using the avatar update since the first one was done years and years ago.

The only thing I wish the Character creator had was option to drag the colors for Hair, eyes and face rather then having to just click anywhere on the colors to see the changes applied, would be nice to see smooth changes rather then click click click.

Agreed, I've wanted this for 16 years.

I look forward to experiment with the new options for my Southrons, Easterlings, Dunlendings etc.

Not so thrilled about the option for the old avatars going away since I use those for almost all my chars. As much as I like to have more options I really hope for some straight long and middle/short hairstyles that do not look like the char has spend hours at the barber but has spend days and weeks out in the wilderness. I use the old avatars because most of the former "new" hair is simply too smooth for my rangers, brigands, farmers etc.

Dirt etc as more details would be appreciated, especially for roleplaying


The eye patch seems to clip right now. Please consider options like blind eye right/left/both and a patch for the other eye, too.


I agree that more sliders for the body appearance are needed.


Last but not least, especially with all that new options, please consider a possibility to save/load an appearance (at creation/at the barber). Right now one can write down the chosen options but to change hair/eye/skin color always seems to lead to a different outcome, however slightly it might be.

Agreed, we need more straight and medium/long hair options. I'd love different eye types, wow did a great job of this.

And save/load would be AMAZING.

[YamydeAragon]

This is about the only thing I don't like with the Avatar update, I know we can chose not to use it, but honestly I would like see no beard options for females.

My dwarf lady want plenty more beard options & braids.

[DavidmeetHal]

When I heard that there would be beards on women, I did not believe it until I checked here. I've seen Turbine/SSG make some questionable decisions in the past, but this one takes the cake.

[CloudCastle]

There are some bugs that have been introduced into the old hair styles:



There are these blank, white spaces that look a little like they are glowing.

My character also lost her freckles. You can see them as they look now on live:



On Bullroarer I can no longer see them at all.

[Tarbel]

Not lore breaking at all. Noldor were frequently described as 'dark', which can be taken many ways. Elves who live in the south or east (and we know they existed) would not necessarily look like the elves of the West.

This is just not true. From Appendix F of The Lord of the Rings:

"[Elves] were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin"

[Phantion]

This is just not true. From Appendix F of The Lord of the Rings:

"[Elves] were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin"

And Appendix F itself contradicts "The Silmarillion" as published, wherein the entire group of Elves known as the Vanyar - not only the House of Finarfin - are described with golden hair:

"Yet to none were his eyes more often drawn than to Idril the King’s daughter, who sat beside him; for she was golden as the Vanyar, her mother’s kindred, and she seemed to him as the sun from which all the King’s hall drew its light" (Tolkien, "The Silmarillion" 158) and then later, "The name (singular Vanya) means ‘the Fair’, referring to the golden hair of the Vanyar;" (307).

You'll notice that plenty of Elves in-game can have blond / blonde hair, not only the Vanyar - and "Vanyar" also isn't a choice among the High Elven groups.

My point: Good luck trying to find narrative consistency in some of these sorts of details in Tolkien. The reader decides whether to prefer "Appendix F" or the published "Silmarillion" on the subject and not the writer, which makes it a subjective matter of a reader's interpretation (*I tend to prefer "The Silmarillion" on this one ).

That is all I have to say on this subject; I'm not wading into other debates. My point is solely about the fact that Tolkien's writings do tend to contradict each other in places and that Tolkien runs into this problem because honestly- and I say this knowing he's my favorite writer whom I admire with great passion - he was never really satisfied and kept changing his mind again and again and again. That's just the facts of his writing process and how we end up with the contradictions. It especially got troublesome over naming more than anything else (*that and lineages; poor Fingon lost a wife and son and daughter in some later writings all because of the passing of the crown from Fingon to Turgon to Gil-galad rather than Fingon to Gil-galad, yet another example - and that's why "The Silmarillion" has Fingon as GG's father because Christopher Tolkien forgot a particular naming chart from c. 1968). *I also do not look at Tolkien's words about his works without that perspective either. I'm pretty sure if he lived 1,000 years, there'd be at least 10,000 other changes in his writings.

*It is much nicer to readers when writers finish their stories and then move on rather than trying to rewrite them ad infinitum later post-publication. The times he did place "The Silmarillion" up for publication likely would not have prevented him from making more changes after the fact if Allen and Unwin had published it (*vs. what happened- Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gabriel Kay teaming-up to finish the job after Tolkien's death). That's a lesson I'll kindly take from Tolkien there Sometimes, you got to know when to throw in the towel! Hehehe

My preference is to just take what the writing of the actual stories as written say and build from there; if Tolkien decides in some letter 10 years later in his writing timeline something about a character, and to my mind, it's not in the actual story or justified in the actual story, I'm afraid it cannot count in my reading IMHO.

Cheers!

[miriadel]

as others have said, please add more origins, that is also part of character creation. especially now that we WILL move to southern regions like Umbar, having characters with origins like Harad, or Rhun would fit exploring those regions a lot, more immersion is always good.

[Tarbel]

And Appendix F itself contradicts "The Silmarillion" as published, wherein the entire group of Elves known as the Vanyar - not only the House of Finarfin - are described with golden hair:

"Yet to none were his eyes more often drawn than to Idril the King’s daughter, who sat beside him; for she was golden as the Vanyar, her mother’s kindred, and she seemed to him as the sun from which all the King’s hall drew its light" (Tolkien, "The Silmarillion" 158) and then later, "The name (singular Vanya) means ‘the Fair’, referring to the golden hair of the Vanyar;" (307).

You'll notice that plenty of Elves in-game can have blond / blonde hair, not only the Vanyar - and "Vanyar" also isn't a choice among the High Elven groups.

This is true; Christopher Tolkien wrote in The Book of Lost Tales that his father was referring to the Noldor in that passage, not the Elves at large. The reason why some of the Noldor are golden-haired is because Finarfin took one of the Vanyar to wife. I cited it, however, as it shows that the Noldor were always envisioned as having fair skin, and were not "dark" in skin tone in any writings.

Additionally, (and please correct me if I am wrong), there are no Elves in Tolkien's work to be described as having dark skin. On the contrary, every single time the skin tone of an Elf is mentioned, it is said to be "fair" or "white". Which is why I really have to push back on the idea that including dark skinned Elves in this setting is "not lore breaking at all".

[Devolved]

The Standing Stone Games version of Middle Earth was a pretty good one. Over the years, some updates were very problematic, but nothing ever bothered me so much that I could not squint and ignore the worst of it. There is nothing to discuss. This update is a nuclear weapon I cannot ignore.

... 10/10 cupcakes.

[Phantion]

This is true; Christopher Tolkien wrote in The Book of Lost Tales that his father was referring to the Noldor in that passage, not the Elves at large. The reason why some of the Noldor are golden-haired is because Finarfin took one of the Vanyar to wife. I cited it, however, as it shows that the Noldor were always envisioned as having fair skin, and were not "dark" in skin due in any writings.

Additionally, (and please correct me if I am wrong), there are no Elves in Tolkien's work to be described as having dark skin. On the contrary, every single time the skin tone of an Elf is mentioned, it is said to be "fair" or "white". Which is why I really have to push back on the idea that including dark skinned Elves in this setting is "not lore breaking at all".

As I said, I'm not wading into controversial debates.

All I'll say on that is that the Avari vanish from Middle-earth's history after the opening pages of "The Silmarillion" concerning the awakening of the Quendi at Cuivienen and that the chief distinctions Tolkien were focused on, in that tale, were linguistic first and foremost and then geographic: who stayed and who didn't stay. I couldn't find a single reference to appearances in those passages, and I read them very closely as presented in the tale of the published text, which again, is my "gold standard" above any drafts and letters.

As far as I'm concerned, the status of Third Age Avari living in climates completely altered by multiple cataclysmic changes in the history of Arda is entirely up to the reader's imagination, especially in a Third Age context. Tolkien's mind and heart were set in the northwest of Middle-earth, in Beleriand chiefly, and then in Numenor, Lindon, Eriador, Rhovanion, and Gondor, with all else sketched out in only the barest of details (*with only the places Frodo and Sam experience from Minas Morgul onward as the chief exceptions).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the frame narrative matters. "The Hobbit" has two versions - both written by Bilbo, one a lie to cover-up the Ring and the other with the truth behind the Ring included. LOTR has Frodo and Sam writing it - with Merry and Pippin lending input - and then it gets copied by Fingedil King's scholar in Gondor in FoA 172 during the reign of Eldarion. "The Silmarillion" is a collection of various writings held by Elrond in Rivendell, translated by Bilbo into Westron, and the other drafts are various writings as well.

So, how could Fingedil King's Scholar, or Elrond, or any of the Hobbits, know what happened to the Avari or what they looked like? They couldn't. They never went out there.

Now, it's also true that they never saw a Death Star plop atop Mordor (*that's where . . . . I'd take issue. Please, no wars between star destroyers and Great Eagles, amusing as it sounds, tyvm!). My way of interpreting is this: the published text gives some details, and then I'm free to take those details, start with then, and then imagine them as I will.

Honestly, it's what makes Tolkien's body of work great: that the contradictions, while troublesome for ending a story as I mentioned above, also mean he succeeded in his original vision: to mimic the patterns of writing mythology. What happened to Iphigenia, daughter of Agamemnon? Well, Aeschylus will give you one answer, Euripides will give the opposite, and then you get to decide which ending you like best. That's part of how it works


Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Which is why I really have to push back on the idea that including dark skinned Elves in this setting is "not lore breaking at all".

I'm all about lore, though I'm also quite flexible and when it comes to unexplored corners this wouldn't be entirely out of the question if they had a nicely done precedent for some lost far Eastern elves. Given the lands of Rhun and its climate it still wouldn't warrant pitch African black though, but who knows, maybe they would be able to make this work and many of us love to watch them do these lore-rich, fill-in-the-blanks and add your original matter mental faculties, for a long time that was like main appeal of this game. The only thing I strongly disapprove of is... utter laziness, lack of justified narrative elements, sameness sameness, no uniqueness and overall lack of consistency. It's not exactly "can't ever do X~!" in an adaptation that has a lot of wiggle room in certain spots to begin with, it's the lack of all of these intellectual things and worldbuilding elements that make decent things go to the trash bin if too many offenses are committed and everything becomes more and more distorted/inconsistent. I really would hate it to happen to this game. I feel like these devs would know what I'm talking about, they're so creative with so much attention to detail that we love after all, but then again, there have been times where I put too much trust into creators or underestimated the fact many creators just willingly destroy their own things for some bizarre new creative ideas even if not exactly motivated by profit or anything like it (then again, none of them were as good as lotro devs!)

[SniperCT]

as others have said, please add more origins, that is also part of character creation. especially now that we WILL move to southern regions like Umbar, having characters with origins like Harad, or Rhun would fit exploring those regions a lot, more immersion is always good.

Except the only way for an existing character to change origins is to pay for a race change.

Much simpler to let people just make the changes in the barbershop. Cheaper too. I for one am not going to complain about them NOT locking this behind the store!

As I said, I'm not wading into controversial debates.

All I'll say on that is that the Avari vanish from Middle-earth's history after the opening pages of "The Silmarillion" concerning the awakening of the Quendi at Cuivienen and that the chief distinctions Tolkien were focused on, in that tale, were linguistic first and foremost and then geographic: who stayed and who didn't stay. I couldn't find a single reference to appearances in those passages, and I read them very closely as presented in the tale of the published text, which again, is my "gold standard" above any drafts and letters.

As far as I'm concerned, the status of Third Age Avari living in climates completely altered by multiple cataclysmic changes in the history of Arda is entirely up to the reader's imagination, especially in a Third Age context. Tolkien's mind and heart were set in the northwest of Middle-earth, in Beleriand chiefly, and then in Numenor, Lindon, Eriador, Rhovanion, and Gondor, with all else sketched out in only the barest of details (*with only the places Frodo and Sam experience from Minas Morgul onward as the chief exceptions).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the frame narrative matters. "The Hobbit" has two versions - both written by Bilbo, one a lie to cover-up the Ring and the other with the truth behind the Ring included. LOTR has Frodo and Sam writing it - with Merry and Pippin lending input - and then it gets copied by Fingedil King's scholar in Gondor in FoA 172 during the reign of Eldarion. "The Silmarillion" is a collection of various writings held by Elrond in Rivendell, translated by Bilbo into Westron, and the other drafts are various writings as well.

So, how could Fingedil King's Scholar, or Elrond, or any of the Hobbits, know what happened to the Avari or what they looked like? They couldn't. They never went out there.

Now, it's also true that they never saw a Death Star plop atop Mordor (*that's where . . . . I'd take issue. Please, no wars between star destroyers and Great Eagles, amusing as it sounds, tyvm!). My way of interpreting is this: the published text gives some details, and then I'm free to take those details, start with then, and then imagine them as I will.

Honestly, it's what makes Tolkien's body of work great: that the contradictions, while troublesome for ending a story as I mentioned above, also mean he succeeded in his original vision: to mimic the patterns of writing mythology. What happened to Iphigenia, daughter of Agamemnon? Well, Aeschylus will give you one answer, Euripides will give the opposite, and then you get to decide which ending you like best. That's part of how it works


Cheers!

I think a lot of people have a failure of imagination when it comes to thinking about things outside their normal windows of observation and experience.

If I can find a reasonable justification for the existence of dinosaurs in some lost garden from the years the Valar were experimenting with creation(all of morgoth's creatures are corrupted beings, where then, did dragons come from? ), a race of elves living in the far Harad is much more plausible

[auximenes]

My biggest concern are the people who are going to make bearded females as a mockery of the option, with stupid names and even stupider behaviour.

[Phantion]

One thing I'd advocate for is new character slots to encourage further experimentation and fun with the new options! SSG, please consider it, even if it means adding 1-2 new slots for purchase for the next update! I don't know how SWTOR maintains 100 characters per account, but its also a 2007-era game, and I have faith in the ole' engine!

Except the only way for an existing character to change origins is to pay for a race change.

Much simpler to let people just make the changes in the barbershop. Cheaper too. I for one am not going to complain about them NOT locking this behind the store!



I think a lot of people have a failure of imagination when it comes to thinking about things outside their normal windows of observation and experience.

If I can find a reasonable justification for the existence of dinosaurs in some lost garden from the years the Valar were experimenting with creation(all of morgoth's creatures are corrupted beings, where then, did dragons come from? ), a race of elves living in the far Harad is much more plausible

Oh yes- and never mind the Nameless under Moria! XD!!! Part of me was like, "WHAT ARE XENOMORPHS DOING IN ARDA! H.R. Giger's drawings!" and the other is like, "Get me on a guard who looks like Ellen Ripley - I'll tank my way through the Foundations of Stone! GO! GO! GO!" For me, this and above all things, all things considered with a game: Am I having fun or not? If I am, well, that's what matters!

Cheers!

[SniperCT]

Okay more feedback time:

Still can't quite get a pure black or a pure white hair though. And I don't think you can get raven black, which would be nice. A little bit of blue highlights like that shade of hair tends to have.

All of those options would be nice. Oh and a better silver, but maybe I just need to play around with that more, but the silver is something I more want on my elves than my humans.

[Tarbel]

As I said, I'm not wading into controversial debates.

All I'll say on that is that the Avari vanish from Middle-earth's history after the opening pages of "The Silmarillion" concerning the awakening of the Quendi at Cuivienen and that the chief distinctions Tolkien were focused on, in that tale, were linguistic first and foremost and then geographic: who stayed and who didn't stay. I couldn't find a single reference to appearances in those passages, and I read them very closely as presented in the tale of the published text, which again, is my "gold standard" above any drafts and letters.

As far as I'm concerned, the status of Third Age Avari living in climates completely altered by multiple cataclysmic changes in the history of Arda is entirely up to the reader's imagination, especially in a Third Age context. Tolkien's mind and heart were set in the northwest of Middle-earth, in Beleriand chiefly, and then in Numenor, Lindon, Eriador, Rhovanion, and Gondor, with all else sketched out in only the barest of details (*with only the places Frodo and Sam experience from Minas Morgul onward as the chief exceptions).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the frame narrative matters. "The Hobbit" has two versions - both written by Bilbo, one a lie to cover-up the Ring and the other with the truth behind the Ring included. LOTR has Frodo and Sam writing it - with Merry and Pippin lending input - and then it gets copied by Fingedil King's scholar in Gondor in FoA 172 during the reign of Eldarion. "The Silmarillion" is a collection of various writings held by Elrond in Rivendell, translated by Bilbo into Westron, and the other drafts are various writings as well.

So, how could Fingedil King's Scholar, or Elrond, or any of the Hobbits, know what happened to the Avari or what they looked like? They couldn't. They never went out there.

Now, it's also true that they never saw a Death Star plop atop Mordor (*that's where . . . . I'd take issue. Please, no wars between star destroyers and Great Eagles, amusing as it sounds, tyvm!). My way of interpreting is this: the published text gives some details, and then I'm free to take those details, start with then, and then imagine them as I will.

Honestly, it's what makes Tolkien's body of work great: that the contradictions, while troublesome for ending a story as I mentioned above, also mean he succeeded in his original vision: to mimic the patterns of writing mythology. What happened to Iphigenia, daughter of Agamemnon? Well, Aeschylus will give you one answer, Euripides will give the opposite, and then you get to decide which ending you like best. That's part of how it works


Cheers!

You make a fine point. I appreciate the discussion, friend! Cheers

[Phantion]

You make a fine point. I appreciate the discussion, friend! Cheers

Tyvm! Likewise, friend!

Cheers!

[Haidd]

This isn't a matter of respect over views, beliefs, etc. to me.

Cordovan's quote alone showed a massive ego issue going on with the leadership team.

I have nothing against the skin color changes in the slightest. I'm all for that. Being able to look like an Easterling who came over and started a new life and all that would be an awesome concept to go with.

The beards things? You know it was added for one and only one reason - and it's purely ideological - anyone arguing otherwise is being intentionally obtuse and we all know it. I'm upset over this, not because they're giving women beards - they're calling anyone saying otherwise is being disrespectful.

Doing this just completely robs Stout-Axes and Dwarves of their lore - this is what upsets me the most. Dwarven women were described as the ones able to grow beards and being indistinguishable from the males. Doing this for Men is possibly the most lore-breaking thing they could do.

They could have saved this for model updates with Dwarves, giving some variations or slight model warps to them to make them look differently. Do you know how much that'd be widely accepted and loved? To throw this on humans which don't make any lore sense is ridiculous and they're throwing a legacy out of a window.

[TesalionLortus]

I'm upset over this, not because they're giving women beards - they're calling anyone saying otherwise is being disrespectful.

Doing this just completely robs Stout-Axes and Dwarves of their lore - this is what upsets me the most. Dwarven women were described as the ones able to grow beards and being indistinguishable from the males. Doing this for Men is possibly the most lore-breaking thing they could do.

They literally need to put the person who came up with the idea "on a leash" - as it's usually colloquially said - and I don't mean it in any offensive terms but management terms. Sometimes to have a decent creative endeavor or run a good enterprise you gotta be a guardian watching over the creative flow, you gotta be that person, make some hard choices and say no, it's not always butterflies and rainbows regarding such highly sensitive matters nor it should be. But if that's just Sev's idea or the "sentiment behind the entire team" or something, or just the usual case of lack of foresight that we've seen in recent times, well then, then I'm not sure what to say ;P I want this game to last another 15 years, as we used to say during the last anniversary, but such things don't invite confidence I must say.

[TesalionLortus]

They aren't going to give us free race changes so we can change our characters' origins, and they are very unlikely to be able to make origin work on the barber. And it would be very unfair to require a store-bought item OR a reroll to access the new settings.

Therefore, this is the only path forward, and we can, you know, pretend that dale-lander character is actually from much further east. Just don't use the 'of dale' title or something.

I find this excuse very weak.

They may just do away with origins entirely, you know. Still better than 4 of them for Westerners but all of these other races of South and East utterly ignored despite available at the creation screen. (So much for diversity...)

[SniperCT]

I knew this thread would get derailed from the original purpose of discussing actual issues and bugs with the new options and into a revolving circle of arguing over narrow definitions of what is and is not lore and canon appropriate, with a side dash of people losing their minds over something not worth getting all up in arms about.

I find this excuse very weak.

They may just do away with origins entirely, you know. Still better than 4 of them for Westerners but all of these other races of South and East utterly ignored despite available at the creation screen. (So much for diversity...)

Not an excuse, an explanation.

As it stands right now, origins are tied to character creation, the only way to change them is to pay for a race change. Unhooking origins from that may or may not be possible, or it may be too much work for too little gain. We don't know. I'd rather they do it this way than not at all, and potentially figure out the origin later. It's such small potatoes it isn't really worth the data to even argue about.

As long as we can still have the origin titles (my captain is of gondor frequently and I don't want to lose that) I don't really care what they do. I would love 'of khand' for one of mine though.