Blue Champion, actual tank?

[blodgettna29]

As the title suggests I'm curious if a blue specced Champion is actually a viable tank for group content? Holding aggro, not being ridiculously squishy, etc etc etc

Thank you for your insights

[treato]

Tough yes, holding aggro no. There is really no viable way of holding several targets attention except using True Heroics. The cooldown is being reduced to 2 minutes so that will help. I can't do enough damage in blue to even keep a single target's attention. But, survivability goes way up in Blue.

[blodgettna29]

So then the blue line really serves no purpose? If the Champ is a full DPS class then using something that boosts surviability at the cost of damage... outside of moors play... is kind of pointless?

[Aldeld]

If the Champ is a full DPS class then using something that boosts surviability at the cost of damage... outside of moors play... is kind of pointless?

It's pointless even in the moors. The only time I go blue in the moors is to keep creeps guessing on whether I'm a squishy target or not, so they pick something else to blow up. Or if none of the people I group with are online and I'm feeling froggy enough to run solo for some dumb reason.

[jarroder]

Tough yes, holding aggro no. There is really no viable way of holding several targets attention except using True Heroics. The cooldown is being reduced to 2 minutes so that will help. I can't do enough damage in blue to even keep a single target's attention. But, survivability goes way up in Blue.

Blue line champions are great with holding aggro. its just that they die very fast. for what reason i don't know, but raging blades is a big key to holding aggro in blue line. and if u want to hold up to more target add more targets on from the yellow line.also using your champion horn helps with that to and as for single targets. use wild attack and challenges and u will be fine there. its a great way to hold a single target and still use raging blades also. ps. never mind my errors hehe its early morning here. :P

[Gromit1710]

Champs can tank group content provided 2 things happen

1) You're with a group a people who understand how aggro works and let the champ build up some before going all out.

In my experience, this is the most common reason a group fails with a Champ Tank.. "Chank" ... because a Hunter can't hold his wad, or a Loremaster just can't wait to launch a big AoE... next thing you know, you've got mobs running amok through the group and everyone is saying " I knew we shouldn't have had a Chank!". However.. a group that waits a little bit to let us go through a rotation or two and build up aggro would have a different experience. (most of the time there isn't a second go.. people drop or the leader plunks us back as DPS with a cookie and a pat on the head..)

2) You have a good healer focused on the champ. We don't have the same level of toughness as a guard or warden, and can be killed rather quickly if someone isn't watching our back when the DPS starts rolling in.

Blueline Champs can have about 4 skills for AoE aggro generation. True Heroics, Champions Horn, Raging Blade (get this out of yellow's tree) and BladeWall. The hard part is working out the timing and the rotation.

We can tank small groups of mobs and hold aggro (3-5) very easily. Once you get above about 5 mobs or so.. AoE dps from other members really starts to play a factor.

Depending on the number of Mob's in a wave/group... you usually will get one or two mobs that decide someone else is tastier than you. Again.. it's the group's job to understand this and switch focus fire when needed to take these guys out before they cause too much havoc.

Don't blow Champion's Challenge (ST forced taunt) at the start, use the horn instead. Save it for when a Hunter, RK or Healer pulls aggro on a specific mob and it starts wandering away from you and into the DPS/Healers.

I've successfully tanked 6 and 12 man content like WoS T3..Bells T2c, OD T2 runs, Sammy (but who really needs one here?) and have been one of the 2 tanks needed for FoS T2c. I've also solo'ed Warg Pens in Blueline.. and If I can do it.. I'm sure many other people can do it much better/faster/easier than me.

I only put myself as a 6/10 on the "I know what the heck I'm doing" scale

[Castorix]

In PVE, Blue Champs ~= Guardians (Guardians > with Block (against raid bosses) + better self-healing)
In some situations, I'm even better with my Blue Champ than with my Guardian (when kiting is needed, like for example in Helegrod Giant (solo), harder with my Guardian at boss where I need to AoE mobs to heal myself, being stunned too often)

[Ethrildar]

Can't say I've found Chanking all too difficult, as Gromit mentioned, if your group's dps want to blow their load in the first 3 seconds of a fight, you're going to have issues, but in general ploughing in with horn & raging blades, then spamming the ballz outta bladewall, and you should be alright, to max out survivability it's emportant to ensure you have as much morale as possible. I'd aim for 25k++ before buffs, this will put you at a nice 30k with buffs which is usually sufficient. As far as it goes though, a Chank is nothing compared to a Warden, Cappy, or Guard, and as such, in most groups a Champ will remain a DPS whilst a superior tank does the aggro grabbing.

Chanking is quite fun though, it's the only tank left in the game that relies on a more old-school threat gen (ploughing in and going mental with aoes). I still by far prefer the RoR champ for tanking though, had a lot of fun with that, the new one is till capable though.

[Schaijian]

...to max out survivability it's emportant to ensure you have as much morale as possible. I'd aim for 25k++ before buffs, this will put you at a nice 30k with buffs which is usually sufficient.

Would you mind to share your equipment you use to reach 25k++ before buffs - hopefully without sacrificing too much of evade or tactical mitigation (still my weakest point at the moment since vitality doesn´t provide it any more)?

Not that a level 95 setup will be of any matter with todays update, but I´m still curious as I can´t reach much more then 23k without a huge loss in other - in my opinion more important - survival stats.
I don´t think that maxing out morale is the best way to improve your survivability. With mobs now hiting (slightly) harder, a difference of 2-4k morale for some fights is not more then 1-2 hits you take. With higher overall mitigation stats you will increase your survivability more as you do not take taht much hits (higher evade) or reduce the incoming damage when actually being hit (phys./tact. mitigation/crit defence).

[Gromit1710]

Would you mind to share your equipment you use to reach 25k++ before buffs - hopefully without sacrificing too much of evade or tactical mitigation (still my weakest point at the moment since vitality doesn´t provide it any more)?

Not that a level 95 setup will be of any matter with todays update, but I´m still curious as I can´t reach much more then 23k without a huge loss in other - in my opinion more important - survival stats.
I don´t think that maxing out morale is the best way to improve your survivability. With mobs now hiting (slightly) harder, a difference of 2-4k morale for some fights is not more then 1-2 hits you take. With higher overall mitigation stats you will increase your survivability more as you do not take taht much hits (higher evade) or reduce the incoming damage when actually being hit (phys./tact. mitigation/crit defence).

There's other ways to boost your mits. Swapping out your Virtues is a great place to start... then Eorlingas warding lore scrolls...

Plenty of crafted jewelery / gear around with evade stats on it with Vitality as the main stat and crit defense.

Personally, I end up around 23- 24k in full chank gear before buffs. Works fine.

[Schaijian]

Of course I change virtues for mitigation and use jewellery with crit defence/evade, Gromit. With warding scrolls I am at maxed physical mitigation, around 50% tactical mitigation, something like 65% crit defence, maxed parry and 17% evade or something like that. 23-24k is where I am in full chanking mode, too. What I was curious about was the stated 25k++ before buffs from Ethrildar, which I can´t really see with mitigation virtues.

[blodgettna29]

Today's patch might help with "chanking" (this, for some reason, sounds like a derogatory term... hah). They are buffing traits that give base stats, so the Vit trait in MC might help with the morale stacking. Imp Riposte trait at max rank will effect up to 3 targets, maybe there will be a legacy effect to increase targets? So a bit more survivability and AoE ability!

[Ethrildar]

24-25k morale is easily achievable whilst maintaining perfectly acceptable mitigations. Physical mit is exceptionally easy to cap out and requires next to no virtue changing. Tactical mit has some nice boosts from blue line, as well as a few virtues, and the aforementioned bonuses, changing a few pieces of gear out like using Sarchol cloak, and items like the defensive bow for +mits and crit D, you'll lose minor amounts of morale from the vit loss but gain massive portions of mits. Don't forget to add in things like vitality tomes which over time aren't too costly to acquire, make sure your legendary item relics are set up right.

All of this being irrelevant of course, given the whole U14 thing today, where mits will be so laughably easy to cap for PVE that it'll be doable whilst AFK. I can't imagine achieving ~40k morale (buffed) whilst having capped phys & tact mit will be too much of an issue with essence gear now.

[Humbabumba]

Well few weeks down the road and what i can say, 2/3 blue, 1/3 yellow for raging t1 ans some points in red.. os dunnoth is tankable.. havent met fire rk-s there, i assume they still need guard disco challenge. Gearing is kind of the key to it. Balance between mastery and mitigations.
Only things driving me nuts is the grind to get new armor.. class armor.. uuuuhh. Turbine, abit overkill maybe? To do all the deeds of all the areas to unlock armor..?

[mrfigglesworth]

Od t1 is tankable by a light armor class.

[Hyos]

I admit to being a bit biased when it comes to the "forced taunts are absolutely necessary" approach. While other tank classes have it a bit easier, everything in this game can be tanked by a champ that is properly geared, skilled and played. I have countless examples where I "out-tanked" Wardens, Captains and Guardians. And they have out-tanked me on when played properly in encounters more suited to another tanking class.

So to answer the original question - blue champ full tank - sure as hell yes.

[Humbabumba]

Hughe dots create so much agro, that id take a grain of salt before trying to tank fire runekeeper, warden dots, burglar. And T1 was about points in raging blade, means level 1 to open skill.

[Gladnagl]

For those who still want to try Chanking, especially at low levels, here is a scenario that worked out very well. My kinnies needed a sixth for GA Red Maid at Level 35. They had 2 guards, a burglar, a warden, and one CC Yellow Loremaster. The burg was going Gambler until the Dunlending challenge where he went MM. Ostensibly they asked me in for AoE Yellow since the group now was mostly DoT, CC, and debuff. We also had little fellowship healing other than the party heal skill on 30sec CD from the LM. At this level I have better self heals in Blue than the guards and warden.

Going through the instance we had no real problems with the Creoth and undead, I was in full SHING-SHING. Near the end, I told the group I would go Blue and tank the boss while they burned down the adds.

Naruhel threw me around a few times and Disregarded me at least once (lost threat). Because she can go invulnerable a few times, the instance can be as much an endurance contest. I kept up Bracing Attack and the bubble, never needed Fight On or Dire Need (held them in reserve). Used Second Wind off CD to keep power up (not sure if the LM was helping there). Hamstring helped keep her from running down my mates. We won the Challenge, and I doubt any of us was below half health, I never dropped below 3/4.

The other time I Chank a lot is soloing some of the trickier landscape areas. My other group usually plays Level +5 mobs, so most of the Yellow AoE swings are deflected. This also gets to be an endurance contest, one that a Yellow Champion usually fails but stands up to very well in Blue, albeit slow.

[TamX]

After I rolled Warden, I haven't tanked on champ much. And I rolled Warden, because there is a big drawback in Champ tanking: the lack of means to hold aggro when hurting surroundings is not allowed (that is, close all challenges). Raging Blade and Bladewall are usually enough to keep aggro when you can hurt everything around, thought. From that perspective, I can't compare Champ and Warden, I haven't felt much problems with either class with somewhat "well-behaving" teams. With problematic team members (members that seems to want to deliberately steal aggro by nuking some random targets), neither class can't hold aggro forever.

In situations where you are not allowed to kill for example adds, it becomes very hard to keep those adds off from healers with a chank. Warden does it with 20 sec CD forced taunt, and heals (especially Conviction, group heal, can be effective tool to keep adds off from healers).

Overall, Warden is easier to be used as tank (even that the lower mitigations make it inherently squishier than a champ). Especially in 3-mans, which could be more suitable for chanks, I like Warden's versatility that allows close to any combination of a team.

[drewskiboy]

Champs Can Tank they need help staying alive sometimes I have a level 100 champ that I use to tank all the time on Firefoot. Like TamX was saying Blade Wall and Raging Blade are main things for getting things beating on you but once you have them on you the machismo buff helps keep them on you also horn of champions is good to use to grab a group. If I where to compare to wardens: Wardens have the survivability aspect where as champs sometimes need help staying up when tanking. Its always good to have a healer keep a eye on the champ if its tanking and good communication always helps. Yes champs lack in DPS in Blue but they excel in holding a group in my opinion.

[Cazathorn]

I was in a group the other day with a Captain, and I could not even compete with aggro with her, even though she was 8 levels below me. It was no contest, nothing I could do was holding the enemy attention. I was supposed to be tanking, so I'm not sure if she knew what she was doing. She must have been running on her tank trait tree as well. I have never played Captain so I am not sure of their abilities as tank, but they must be pretty good!

[ertr]

I was in a group the other day with a Captain, and I could not even compete with aggro with her, even though she was 8 levels below me. It was no contest, nothing I could do was holding the enemy attention. I was supposed to be tanking, so I'm not sure if she knew what she was doing. She must have been running on her tank trait tree as well. I have never played Captain so I am not sure of their abilities as tank, but they must be pretty good!

Captains do indeed make fairly good tanks. Against a single opponent they can hold aggro quite well. Their main weakness as tanks is a lack of AoE attacks, making it harder to keep aggro on multiple opponents.

[TamX]

If I where to compare to wardens: Wardens have the survivability aspect where as champs sometimes need help staying up when tanking. Its always good to have a healer keep a eye on the champ if its tanking and good communication always helps.

Yes, tanking on champ usually needs some heals to back up, as our own heals are not that massive. Compared to heavy armor tanks (guard, cappy, champ), Warden inherently takes ~25% more damage. As tank, Warden is IMO more vulnerable to single hard hitting bosses, especially in the very beginning of the fight when buffs are not up and HoTs not running, where warden can't efficiently leech heals and mitigations. Also, lack of single target taunt can make it tricky to divide mobs/bosses to two tanks, like BfE trolls.

I was in a group the other day with a Captain, and I could not even compete with aggro with her, even though she was 8 levels below me. It was no contest, nothing I could do was holding the enemy attention. I was supposed to be tanking, so I'm not sure if she knew what she was doing. She must have been running on her tank trait tree as well.

Must have been running in tanking traits. I personally usually hate 'aggro wars' as it makes hard if not impossible to move mobs around when needed. And in general, aggro wars are only up to CDs of forced taunts. But some times it is wanted behaviour, e.g. in some instances/strategies mobs are divided to two tanks to spread incoming dmg.

Captains do indeed make fairly good tanks. Against a single opponent they can hold aggro quite well. Their main weakness as tanks is a lack of AoE attacks, making it harder to keep aggro on multiple opponents.

Guardian is always a solid choice for tanking. IMO, (current) cappy comes second best solid choice. Warden is a class where player affects very much to the successfulness of tanking, some are good, some are not that good: choosing Warden to tank is almost always up to know the player. Champ is not usually considered as main tank, but makes good, even favored, off-tank in many instances (ITA raids come in to my mind, as well as pulling problematic (reflecting, buffing, debuffing) mobs off from group in T3 skraids with champ's excellent single target taunt).

[Cazathorn]

Has anyone found Rising Ire to be useful? Or cost effective for that matter regarding trait points? It would cost 12 trait points to obtain "ebbing ire" from red line. Is it actually a thing?

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rising_Ire

Says you need to have Glory stance, and "transfers 15% of total acumulated threat from a fellowship member to the champion." Supposedly there is a run legacy for the CD as well. Maybe if you could keep popping it, almost constantly, then it would be great for helping to hold threat, as I sometimes have had difficulty.

I know Champ challenge only holds for 5s w/ 30s CD, but in my limited experience is enough to pull a mob when needed.

[Vulcwen]

Has anyone found Rising Ire to be useful? Or cost effective for that matter regarding trait points? It would cost 12 trait points to obtain "ebbing ire" from red line. Is it actually a thing?

http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rising_Ire

Says you need to have Glory stance, and "transfers 15% of total acumulated threat from a fellowship member to the champion." Supposedly there is a run legacy for the CD as well. Maybe if you could keep popping it, almost constantly, then it would be great for helping to hold threat, as I sometimes have had difficulty.

I know Champ challenge only holds for 5s w/ 30s CD, but in my limited experience is enough to pull a mob when needed.

Rising Ire no longer exists. Red line can indeed still give ebbing ire, but since champs no longer have stances, skill modifications like that were just removed.