I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[RicardoFurriel]

Turbine: please give us A NEW challenge.

Thank you

[Vulcwen]

You and others in this thread are presenting the grind as if you must do it. When you, I and them know the lvl 60 LI's from moria suffice to complete most of the content to lvl 95 (ive done it) including T1 raids. If the argument is Turbine helped to create the illusion that the grind was necessary okay I can see that but this is mostly a player driven condition.

A 3rd ager with moderate LI's and a few mid level gems is enough dps to do nearly every thing at cap with the exception of T2 and small group pvp (you'd be fine with a large group or a dedicated healer). No one is forcing the OP to grind let alone proclaiming its necessary. In addition to that you can buy most of the #### for the LI in the store for TP. The player base being an older MMO, has created the conditions by which they "need" to grind. Turbine never held a gun to peoples head and said "level 5 alts and then min/max them every level cap."

They took advantage of that yes, but the choice to grind and accommodate alts is 100% on the player.

The need to gear up is partially social pressure, and partially plain addiction. Addicted players will keep playing even if the game isn't fun at all anymore. And in best interest for turbine are addicted whales, as they'll keep spending. Players know it's not fun anymore, their addiction doesn't let them break out of it.

The "gun" Turbine uses is game design that creates addiction. But once you have that addiction in place, you can use the "barely fun" approach to milk players.. or you can keep the game actually fun, and get your money from selling actual content, in addition to things like cosmetics. It was Turbine's choice to move towards the "barely fun" approach, and in turn sell grind-avoidance, which makes it understandable that people complain and eventually leave (if they can break the addiction).

[Scirocco]

Turbine: please give us A NEW challenge.

Thank you

What do you mean by "NEW" challenge?

Something completely different than what has been offered before? What would that be?

[Thorgrum]

You are of course absolutely correct, although I do not remember Turbine mentioning when I purchased alts, that they would render them impossible to progress later when they switch to horizontal grinding mechanisms. I've always managed to keep them reasonably up there until that point, but not anymore.

But, you are correct.

It will save me money in the long run - there will be no more purchasing of alts from me in the future, of that I am certain.

Most of my alts are above 65, with a couple at, or very close to level 50, and they can all progress to level cap comfortably using expansion content now. They have no "need" for non expac content any longer, because when they get to cap, they will never be able to catch up. As they will never progress beyond nothing more than just reaching cap, I needn't spend anything on them at any point at all. So with that in mind they have no use of Gondor/MT content either, which are the only regions that I actually get any use out of for my sub money at the moment. My two mains have done all that content - alts are now rendered as useless, so all that remains for me to do now is turn off my sub when it runs out in February.

Nice job Turbine. I don't mind subbing to support that game, while I can play my alts and progress them between updates after my mains have finished the most recent lot of grind, but when there is no reason to play them . . . . well, there is no reason for me to sub.

So normally I would reply "yes of course I am correct I usually am" but I am not in char for this thread (even though I got it in anyway ).

Let me be clear, Turbine has made it a grind fest to encourage you the player to obtain the results through the store. The LI grind was a complete F2P monetization implementation. Why did we come to that? We have to harken back to the beginning, which is going to give you another example of how horrible Turbine is at managing MMO's. They sold life time subscriptions. So in effect you offer a one time fee to play the game forever. The level of business stupidity needed to articulate that business decision is better left for another thread but essentially what they did was take there most loyal fans and remove the need for them to continue to pay for the product. So the people most willing to pay more for the product have the need to do so removed (for the most part, they still had to pay for expansions).

So that model has a short term revenue life. What they did was create legendary items and created the conditions by which they increased every level cap so the player was compelled to improve them (essentially deconstruct and make new ones). Now that in of itself isnt a bad way to go for a company, a lot of people would pay for the ability not to grind. The kicker is they sold LI's as something that will grow with you when nothing could have been further from the truth. Mounted combat, stat tombs, cosmetics, alts, mannequins they invested heavily into this revenue model and lost sight of the raid content, PVP content which could have been packaged and sold (you needed to be VIP to play in the moors as a freep though). They invested in the PVE content, still I have to say its pretty good given the limitations of the actual story they are in.

So LI's at the core were the grind and progression mechanism. They created the conditions by which development resources were devouted to creating grinds to the player to achieve the cap (Cap isnt just the level of the char, its the level and quality of the gear) when they should have kept the focus on content, raids PvP actual in game activity. The result? When was the last time you had to do a conjunction? "Everyone go all blue" why is that? Because the grind mechanics created made DPS off the charts you can run a lot of content now with just 5 DPS blowing #### up. Tank? NAH (do the even generate threat anymore or do they all have forced taunts?) healer? Ya okay you might need one but the healers in this game? The Heals are off the charts, if you have a mini or RK dedicated healer and your dying that healer is likely tabbed out and watching porn.

"Okay Thor, youre going on and on" I am and the point is most of us could see this trend clearly. Most of us have been here for years and the trend was clear. Yet we kept playing, we kept "grinding" and we became pissed at turbine for doing it. Meantime they are getting revenue off the model, so they hear the complaints but get money why change exactly? Not only that players bitched that they had to grind on all there alts, really? So now the turbine model really shines because what you dont want to go to forochel to kill 450 worms for +1 zeal on 5 toons? Of course you dont I mean there are very few people who want to spend there time grinding this out over and over and over and over and over. So they go to the store and the +1 zeal is there.

Tl;dr: Turbine created the conditions by which it needed to monetize the heart of the progression (the LI's) for years the players supported it. Only recently has it become clear players have had enough (see server merges). Players own a lot of the blame here, but its to late now. Unless Turbine is sitting on millions of cash reserves on there balance sheet they need this continued monetization to support future growth. You all made your bed, go lay in it.

[Laerien]

Flamebait

Thanks for confirming the rule. You are clearly out of control.

You need to read the thread in it's entirety to properly get the post that you quoted, and from which angle it was brought into the conversation. It was uncalled for, it was not brought in any defense from any attack from any member of the raiding community. It was unwarranted and should not be defended in any way, shape of form.

I am not a member of the regular raiding community. I do like to do raids, time permitting, and when I can find groups to do them with. I prefer going into proper, full running raids, where there are people that will not just run through it because they know it inside out, but will take time to explain what is happening or how a challenge needs to be done to anyone new to the raid mechanics. That is 90% of the time, the experience I get when I join raiding groups.
They are not bad people, or disabled, or old, or spoiled teen idiots as that post has portrayed them. They are players - important players, who happen to be passionate about the part of the game that they love.

I go through various stages within the game. Sometimes I am active in group activities regularly, other times I am strictly solo, now and again I participate in raids, and then on times I'm a mix of all three. It depends on two things, how much time I have and my mood. Maybe it's because I don't mold exactly into any one group, or maybe because I could be construed as molding a little bit into them all, that I can see things from more than one angle.

I've seen a player that is all for raids attack the soloist community without mercy and when it is uncalled for out on these boards, calling them names and labeling them in a negative way. Sure I have, and when I see it, I defend against it.

I will also defend against it when it is done against the raiding community, because that is also wrong.

I'm sorry but it's you who didn't read properly what she said. She made really good points about the topic -maybe too sophisticated for some people- and received personal attacks in response, in fact, starting with you.

You all focused in that raider mataphor she used, ignoring everything else (even her apparent desire to have raids back). Maybe you missed when she said she wants to have characters prepaired to raid (before) and she likes to raid and to lead (later). But no, the attacks continued (as usual).

My comment is in response to some people who think they have carte blanche to troll exactly the way I stated. Of course, even I don't agree with all she said; having some words against the "majority" opinion is a sin in these forums.
-------
Yes many people (including raiders) are all you said; unfortunately that is not what we see here in the forums.

Btw, my opinion concerning this topic (even I said that it is too much from the store point of view). It is not a secret and it was evident:

- it is store driven.
- The grind was dramatically increased with the last "update".
- It's not friendly for people who play several characters (curiously probably the most important factor that keeps this game alive).
- The "you don't need to do it" argument has been refuted very well. The quality of the game has been reduced greatly with these grinds.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

My comment is in response to some people who think they have carte blanche to troll exactly the way I stated. Of course, even I don't agree with all she said; having some words against the "majority" opinion is a sin in these forums.

Majority opinion? Don't make me laugh. Some of us were arguing the case for less store-driven/pay-to-no-play grind and more progression through real content when you and the rest of the gang were hiding behind your little community manager who allowed you to /report anything that had the words raiding or group in them. The reason why you're finding that more and more people are complaining is that the grind is getting so out of hand and (with U17) the design philosophy so one-dimensional that fewer and fewer players are willing to defend it.

[Hurin]

I'm sorry but it's you who didn't read properly what she said. She made really good points about the topic -maybe too sophisticated for some people- and received personal attacks in response, in fact, starting with you.

You all focused in that raider mataphor she used, ignoring everything else (even her apparent desire to have raids back). Maybe you missed when she said she wants to have characters prepaired to raid (before) and she likes to raid and to lead (later). But no, the attacks continued (as usual).

Perhaps she shouldn't have begun with outright ad hominem attacks on vast, generalized swaths of the community, past and present, whom she does not know, and yet presumed to judge on a very personal level.

She then did go on to some vaguely defensible things. Indeed, even contradicting herself at several points. To such an extent that more than one of us wondered (some of us aloud) whether there are multiple people involved in her posts.

Btw, my opinion concerning this topic (even I said that it is too much from the store point of view). It is not a secret and it was evident:

- it is store driven.
- The grind was dramatically increased with the last "update".
- It's not friendly for people who play several characters (curiously probably the most important factor that keeps this game alive).
- The "you don't need to do it" argument has been refuted very well. The quality of the game has been reduced greatly with these grinds.

Well, when you're done sticking up for people who entered the thread initially with the sole purpose of throwing insults around (and then oddly tried to go substantive from there), maybe you'll deign to join us in providing feedback along those lines.

[RicardoFurriel]

What do you mean by "NEW" challenge?

Something completely different than what has been offered before? What would that be?

a) A solo instance that actually presented some difficulty
b) A watcher/turtle type (lair) of group instance
c) A new skirmish (instead of a BB) scalable to 1/2/3/6/12 with appropriate difficulty and rewards in all 3 tiers

Just to name a few pve things

[Scirocco]

a) A solo instance that actually presented some difficulty
b) A watcher/turtle type (lair) of group instance
c) A new skirmish (instead of a BB) scalable to 1/2/3/6/12 with appropriate difficulty and rewards in all 3 tiers

Just to name a few pve things

Good suggestions.

(a) is something I haven't really seen in any MMORPG. Content intended for solo play that actually presents a hard challenge, and probably would have to be designed for each class. In LOTRO, players who seek this kind of challenge have to take on content intended for multiple players.

And a new skirmish is something that we haven't seen in the game for awhile.

[Scirocco]

It's because A is what you see in something like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, or Fallout.

Which are all limited to single player games, I believe. I haven't played a single-player CRPG in 18 years, and have no desire to.

There is nothing in the definition of MMORPG that requires formal grouping or raid structures. There are many other ways to players to interact, directly or indirectly, than those limited means (which in the modern form are just choreographic puzzles, with increasingly complex dance steps/button pushing sequences). There's nothing special about either; they're just another form of player interaction.

MMORPGs are big and broad enough to encompass a multitude of playstyles, and are not limited to those you would prefer. We'll just have to continue to disagree on this point.

[Scirocco]

MMOs should gear towards what they do best: Get a bunch of people together to do stuff. That's where area quests are, and the quest structure itself works best when it's used to vector players from one area to another.

Maybe you should explore some of the other genres, as CRPGs have greatly advanced in the last 18 years, as they have the technology to feel MMOish nowadays (especially the Bioware flavors). If the only AAA game you've played recently is LotRO, you're perspective on what constitutes a good MMO is going to be skewered because LotRO (in it's current state) is not a AAA MMO anymore. Hell, it's barely a B lister.

I doubt that single player CRPGs can feel MMORPGish, unless they are massively multiplayer. That's the missing element, and why I have only played MMORPGs for the past 18 years. My active MMORPG history includes UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, SWG, SWTOR, and LOTRO. I attempted ESO, but couldn't get past the awkward user interface. It may be that my perspective is different in light of the fact that the first true MMORPG I played (UO) didn't have a formal group mechanism, much less a raid framework. And while EQ had a group structure, it didn't add a raid structure until substantially later, due to the groups-of-groups approach to Vox and Nagafin and others (raiding being emergent gameplay). In fact, the 72-player limit on EQ raids was intended to try to limit this emergent gameplay by restricting the numbers that players would throw at mobs. Even afterwards, though, I went on several 120+ person raids in Planes of Power (I guess you can call them "raids of raids").

So, my MMORPG playstyle includes what I consider a healthy mix of soloing, small grouping, grouping, and multi-grouping. "Classic" group instances and raids are a small part of that.

Needless to say, a game that limited gameplay to classic group instances or raids would not be a true MMORPG, in my opinion. It would not be of any more interest to me than a team-based FPS game. If you enjoy that playstyle to the exclusion of others, that's fine. But please don't try to force the rest of us to be so limited.

I want a game in which all of the above playstyles can be pursued. That's why I play MMORPGs.

[Lohi]

There's this word "need" being used a lot. You do not need any of that stuff. If you get some, treat it as a bonus, not an entitlement. The game becomes a lot less fun when you stop grinding and start playing.

[Hurin]

There's this word "need" being used a lot. You do not need any of that stuff. If you get some, treat it as a bonus, not an entitlement. The game becomes a lot less fun when you stop grinding and start playing.

And there's this specious, vacuous, mindless, ridiculous diatribe against the word "need" that does nothing to address the actual point. Those expressing their concerns find this myopic, self-serving, willfully obtuse "argument" about 0% compelling. It's semantics masquerading as a point.

This has been addressed so many freakin' times the only excuse for it continuing to appear is that people obviously don't ever read replies, nor the the thread in which they choose to pop in, only to ignorantly pop off.

[Arnenna]

Thanks for confirming the rule. You are clearly out of control.




I'm sorry but it's you who didn't read properly what she said. She made really good points about the topic -maybe too sophisticated for some people- and received personal attacks in response, in fact, starting with you.

You all focused in that raider mataphor she used, ignoring everything else (even her apparent desire to have raids back). Maybe you missed when she said she wants to have characters prepaired to raid (before) and she likes to raid and to lead (later). But no, the attacks continued (as usual).

My comment is in response to some people who think they have carte blanche to troll exactly the way I stated. Of course, even I don't agree with all she said; having some words against the "majority" opinion is a sin in these forums.
-------
Yes many people (including raiders) are all you said; unfortunately that is not what we see here in the forums.

Btw, my opinion concerning this topic (even I said that it is too much from the store point of view). It is not a secret and it was evident:

- it is store driven.
- The grind was dramatically increased with the last "update".
- It's not friendly for people who play several characters (curiously probably the most important factor that keeps this game alive).
- The "you don't need to do it" argument has been refuted very well. The quality of the game has been reduced greatly with these grinds.

And you very obviously started reading Malcolm style - somewhere in the middle.

So it's ok for someone to post all that rubbish about how I am not their equal and kinda mud in comparison to themselves without even having so much as an iota of knowledge of who I actually am or anything about me, but when I explain that my circumstances are indeed similar I am attacking?

Please, don't make me laugh. You dare to accuse people of only reading part of a post - then go on to do exactly that yourself.

The poster started generic attacks with their first post in the thread - general name calling.

They then became very personal on a very individual level at this point.

"Please come back and tell me about multi-tasking when you are raising 3 children as a solo parent while working in a patient care hospital and going to school. When you can sew their new clothes while holding one on your lap and helping the other two with their homework while dinner is cooking I will consider you an equal. Until then, you are just some person on a forum who likes to troll."

[Pavlosh]

There's this word "need" being used a lot. You do not need any of that stuff. If you get some, treat it as a bonus, not an entitlement. The game becomes a lot less fun when you stop grinding and start playing.

Playing what exactly.

Two new mindless dailies that are beyond easy.

Or AFK your way through the new BBs, like the excessively long and laggy Hammer of the Underworld.


is there anything else to do in U17 endgame?

[Altara_of_Rivendell]

Playing what exactly.

Two new mindless dailies that are beyond easy.

Or AFK your way through the new BBs, like the excessively long and laggy Hammer of the Underworld.


is there anything else to do in U17 endgame?

^ This.
And let me also add that even the epic questline for U17 is ridiculously stupid IMO with all that running around up and down MT.

This update is fail.

THe grind is ok but I would go beyond that and introduce back some RNG into loot gear, because everything now has morale and the stats you personally need. Just like it used to be back in the day. It's not fun to play this game anymore.

[Thorgrum]

And there's this specious, vacuous, mindless, ridiculous diatribe against the word "need" that does nothing to address the actual point. Those expressing their concerns find this myopic, self-serving, willfully obtuse "argument" about 0% compelling. It's semantics masquerading as a point.

This has been addressed so many freakin' times the only excuse for it continuing to appear is that people obviously don't ever read replies, nor the the thread in which they choose to pop in, only to ignorantly pop off.

Yes and as you pointed out its been "addressed so many freakin times" there really isnt anything else to say but pop off.

I mean this thread is about someone complaining about a grind in LOTRO. We covered this in 2011, 2012,2013,2014 and here we are again 2015 and 15 pages later.

Your threshold for meaningful discussion was met years ago, at this point if people dont understand the business model and why the grind is here they they are new player or victims of your conclusion. They dont ever read replies nor the thread in which they choose to pop in.

The only new ground covered in this thread is the OP chose to capitalize "NUTS" in the title.

[Datheor]

Going to go ahead and reply here, without reading through 19 pages of snark, personal attacks and general troll comments.

I have stopped leveling all my characters but 2, and those 2 will go forward on quest given gear only. I am also quite tired of the endless grind to get the "perfect" essences to participate in even T1 runs. The DPS/Morale race has gotten to a comical level, with tactics and strategy thrown out the door in a mad dash to "kill everything quick" Added to this is the addition of what I consider the laziest game mechanic of all, the insanely high damage/one shot kill. The only way to counter this is to stack high morale and forget doing what you class was designed to do.

My second reason is the tedious, time consuming and mind numbing grind to do anything in this game. Sure, there has always been grind, but the amount of grinding seemed lower and the rewards better. They have even take one of my personal favorites, the faction steed. I am a collector, and even if Enedwaithe (the old version) was enough to make my eyes bleed, I still did it. Because I got something I wanted that I could show off. But show off yet another identical essence, yet another carbon copy piece of gear? No thanks.

I realize some may see the grind worth it for gear. Some may even see the grind for something cosmetic as a horse silly. But this game has always been about something more than just uber gear and massive damage. It is about, well, Middle Earth. And socializing. And events. And, well, just being there. (With apologies to Chauncey Gardner)

[Beaniemooch]

It is about, well, Middle Earth. And socializing. And events. And, well, just being there. (With apologies to Chauncey Gardner)

Middle Earth loses it's appeal when you can't socialize because your friends left because there was nothing to do and then you were, well, just being there alone and with nothing fun to do.

Saying it's about Middle Earth is downplaying the fact this is a game, a product, and its customers are dissatisfied in a large number of cases. Customers have the right to express their dissatisfaction to the company producing that product before they take their business elsewhere. Which I believe a number of them have done just that, i.e. players disappearing in large numbers resulting in server closures so worlds appear full and robust...

[Arnenna]

Middle Earth loses it's appeal when you can't socialize because your friends left because there was nothing to do and then you were, well, just being there alone and with nothing fun to do.

Saying it's about Middle Earth is downplaying the fact this is a game, a product, and its customers are dissatisfied in a large number of cases. Customers have the right to express their dissatisfaction to the company producing that product before they take their business elsewhere. Which I believe a number of them have done just that, i.e. players disappearing in large numbers resulting in server closures so worlds appear full and robust...

I'm pretty sure this is exactly why this is labeled a Discussion and Feedback forum.

I am dissatisfied with the product at the present time, to the extent I no longer see it worth what I pay for it, so I brought my feedback here so that Turbine could see why I feel that way.

I got called a whiner and a less than equal troll for doing so, but that doesn't really matter to me, as long as Turbine are getting my feedback, people can think what they like.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

I've just spent £50 on pre-ordering the next WoW expansion. That's £50 on content, not on store-bought #### just to speed up & alleviate the grind.

[Gandie2]

Things have derailed since U16 and U17 just came to make things even worse.
Besides the grind we have for essences and morgul crests, any newbie lvl 100 player will also grind for virtues, class trait points, scrolls of empowerment, star-lit crystals, gold epic battle jewelleries.

To have 79 class trait points, a player will literally need to complete all the deeds of Old Anorien, which means that he'll spend quite some time to get it...
For the gold epic battle jewelleries he'll be spending dozens of hours to get the gold jewelleries.

Now players need an average of 85 ASOEs per LI, which is 190 if you have two LIs, (but we know that there are players that have more than 2 LIs, specially if they are guardians or minstrels).

We all need an average of 10 Crystals per LI, which is at least 20 per toon.
All of that wouldn't be a problem if the prices for 85 ASOEs and Crystals weren't so inflated.
This grind is absolutely unfriendly to the players that like to gear up multiple alts and newbie lvl 100 players.

"Having multiple ways to collect your scrolls does not justify making the grind heavier. No matter how many ways you have to obtain your scrolls, there is only a certain number of hours in a day and you can only ontain a certain amount of scrolls in said hours. Having multiple ways does not increase this as you can't do 2 or more things at the same time."
[/b]

Exactly what is the problem here? To be the best in any game you have to accomplish ( read do things ) things in game. Do you want to start playing lotro and on your first day have everything that a person that has been playing for years has. ?

It seems you do; so consider that a rhetorical question. My question to you is. In what way has this changed since update 16, 17. From the start of this game one had to grind virtues if they wished to be all they could be. From the very beginning one had to execute X skill Y times in order to learn the next skill or ability. We have always had to 'grind' (read accomplish things in game) to get skills the difference is now we grind ( read accomplish things in game) to get trait points which we can then use to 'acquire' skills.

Again I ask you what has changed? Again I ask why does it suddenly bother you that in order to have the best of everything. To be the best you can be. That you need 'grind' ( read accomplish things in game) to get them.

I understand you are upset. But perhaps it is because you are tired of the game and need move on. Maybe you are too busy at the moment to have the time to do all the things in game one needs to do to be a tier one player. This is ok. Drop back a notch and be a tier two player and enjoy the game. The content that we are faced with currently is the same content pre MT release. We were all doing this content with our pre MT LI"s and our pre MT gear and our pre MT skill points. So in reality no one needs grind for any of the stuff that came with MT in order to excel in the game.

Get a grip big boy.

[Scirocco]

That's part of the problem. SWTOR was largely a CPRG that happened in an MMO (kinda like how EVE online is an economy sim that happens in space).

CRPGs of the 1990's are a very different beast than what we're seeing now, as many of them are very well done, and completely pwn LotRO in terms of story quality.

I've no doubt that CRPGs are, as you say, very well done with high story quality. But they're missing the MMO part. Even if I were so inclined, I imagine I would finish the CRPG in a month or so, and then leave it behind. A brief diversion, at best. I wouldn't be playing a CRPG 7 or 8 years later (as is the case with EQ and LOTRO).

I think we both are alike in preferring our RPG in an online world shared with lots of other people. We just differ in our preferences for a particular form, nature and/or amount of interaction with other players.

[Hurin]

Exactly what is the problem here? To be the best in any game you have to accomplish ( read do things ) things in game. Do you want to start playing lotro and on your first day have everything that a person that has been playing for years has. ?

It seems you do so consider that a rhetorical question. My question to you is. In what way has this changed since update 16, 17. From the start of this game one had to grind virtues if they wished to be all they could be. From the very beginning one had to execute X skill Y times in order to learn the next skill or ability. We have always had to 'grind' (read accomplish things in game) to get skills the difference is now we grind ( read accomplish things in game) to get trait points which we can then use to 'acquire' skills.

Again I ask you what has changed? Again I ask why does it suddenly bother you that in order to have the best of everything. To be the best you can be. That you need 'grind' ( read accomplish things in game) to get them.

I understand you are upset. But perhaps it is because you are tired of the game and need move on. Maybe you are too busy at the moment to have the time to do all the things in game one needs to do to be a tier one player. This is ok. Drop back a notch and be a tier two player and enjoy the game. The content that we are faced with currently is the same content pre MT release. We were all doing this content with our pre MT LI"s and our pre MT gear and our pre MT skill points. So in reality no one needs grind for any of the stuff that came with MT in order to excel in the game.

Get a grip big boy.

For the love of. . . READ THE THREAD!

Every single "point" you bring up has been addressed ad nauseum.

Every question you have asked has been answered ad nauseum.

Yet, you read the first post in a 19-page thread and decide that's where you're going to start.

And yes, through the course of this thread, your contention that nothing substantial has changed in either the quantity or the quality of "grinds" in the game has been demonstrated to be hopelessly naive. If not willfully obtuse.

--H

[Frelorn]

So we just wanted to jump in here and say that we do appreciate the fact that everyone here is passionate about this topic. That being said, we are always looking into how we can make the game better and hopefully more enjoyable for our players. It is clear that this is an aspect of the game that many of you do not enjoy and is even becoming a deterrent for some. The team is going to be looking into ways that we can improve this while still maintaining the overall goals that we set out for this system.

And while we appreciate your continued feedback, please keep the discussion civil.