Opening the Communication Lines

[Neinda]

I
Minstrel is no more a key mashing class than it was before. Red line can be played a very tiny bit faster but then it also ends up doing more damage than before. Even fewer things changed for blue line rotations. Anthems are the biggest difference but they do not add any significant "key mashing".


.

To you based on your play style the changes have not turned the class into a key masher. To me they have and I cannot play the class now. Why am I wrong when I comment that there is too much key mashing now required for me to be able to effectively play the class? I am not saying you are wrong for liking the change but you feel free to tell me I am wrong in my personal reason for disliking the change and disliking it enough that my mini is retired. I no longer have a level cap character after 15 years. This is not someone complaining for fun. I am someone complaining with a very specific reason for my complaint. I have no basis to tell you that you should dislike the changes because I dislike them. Why is it that the rest of us are supposed to follow your opinion otherwise we are wrong? You like the changes. I do not. Others don't care either way. We are not robots programmed to think and do everything the same. Respect all opinions please.

SSG is going to make whatever changes they want and however they want but they will get input both positive and negative. One hopes the positive comments greatly exceed the negative ones.

No matter your opinion, devs should be professional and not making fun of customers. I honestly don't believe SSG would allow one of their devs to post negative comments about the player base and the quote is hopefully a troll just trying to cause trouble. If SSG actually allows their staff to post derogatory comments about the player base, the game is in a world of hurt.

[elvenes]

This is one of the reasons why communication between devs and players in this game has suffered so much. While SSG is pretty much a "small indie company", the communication standards some players conservatively wish to hold it to would be fit for a big corporation. A dev sarcastically quotes some truly horrible feedback and some people lose their minds. Why? Stop requiring devs to be robots, please.

Since there is also a lot of weird animosity for devs even joining discord servers:
The forums are a very clunky tool for gathering feedback for several reasons - the amount of players participating in the discussion here is lower, intentionally misleading posters are harder to call out, the tempo of the discussion is much slower than on discord, etc. That is why devs joining publicly known community discord servers (Ghyn's server, which is the one the screenshot was taken in, has almost 5 000 members) is an amazing step forward. Any of the people who complain about devs being there are welcome to join the server and interact with devs there as well. The moderation standards are lower than on these forums but it's a much closer and much more efficient discussion.

Of course the ideal situation would be for SSG to have their own discord server, but it would likely be too much of a time investment with all the moderation needed.

oh not this again... nobody asks developers to be robots, simply to be professional towards their customers, in the one place they asked feedback from. But go ahead and stay in your little heaven bubble.

[Neinda]

Since there is also a lot of weird animosity for devs even joining discord servers:
The forums are a very clunky tool for gathering feedback for several reasons - the amount of players participating in the discussion here is lower, intentionally misleading posters are harder to call out, the tempo of the discussion is much slower than on discord, etc. That is why devs joining publicly known community discord servers (Ghyn's server, which is the one the screenshot was taken in, has almost 5 000 members) is an amazing step forward. Any of the people who complain about devs being there are welcome to join the server and interact with devs there as well. The moderation standards are lower than on these forums but it's a much closer and much more efficient discussion.

Of course the ideal situation would be for SSG to have their own discord server, but it would likely be too much of a time investment with all the moderation needed.

If this is a server regularly used by SSG representatives and the post is real then SSG should publish the discord server information and invite people to join it. There have been many posts about this mystery server. One would think if SSG is regularly interacting in a discord with 5k members they would publish the information.

Note to SSG: This is another example of communication issues with the player base. Different devs use different media and ignore the official forums for feedback if what is said here is true. It doesn't matter if you are a big or small company, customer service is customer service and small companies don't grow if they ignore the customers. This is why someone like me gets frustrated. I follow your rules by using the forums and find out they really don't mean anything and they are there for show because you only want feedback from a select group. This may not be true but it is the appearance that has been created by using multiple forums and ignoring and the official forums for feedback.

[deadwoodd]

Not every single "capable" minstrel is good with the changes because not every single "capable" minstrel can play a key mashing class. Different people have different reasons for disliking or liking the changes. Telling someone they are wrong and their reasoning is off because they don't like the changes you like is just as confusing as telling someone they should like brussel sprouts because green is your favorite color. I am happy the changes are good for you but it does not mean I am required to like them myself. I respect your reasons for being happy with the changes. Respect others' reasons for being unhappy. We all contribute to the game in our own way. If SSG only caters to a few, the game will be a ghost town.

The assumed dev posting jokes about the "customers" in a private discord is an awful look for SSG. Is that really what SSG wants as a display on what they think of their customers? Do only the customers in the private discord count? Is this the way of SSG going forward? The post in discord making fun of customers says a lot about SSG. If that is a look SSG wants to wear there is nothing we can do but I hope the discord folks are supporting the game going forward.

The comment you posted by the assumed dev is a perfect example of why the devs need to be careful where and what they post. If it is electronic, it is out there to be a screen shot and shared over and over and over again. SSG, this is for you. Is this the type of comment you want to see posted by a representative of your company?

If this is just a comment by a troll pretending to be a dev in discord, my apologies but it probably means the devs need an official forum where they post so that "fake" devs posting in their name will be treated as such. Having one publicized media for devs to post will prevent problems. I honestly have a difficult time believing that any dev at SSG would post something making fun of the customer base and I hope ti is a troll. I don't want to believe a representative of SSG would post a comment like that making fun of a portion of the player base. I hope this comment was just a troll or there are much bigger problems than class changes and communications.

This is a genuine question, are you that dense that you cannot tell that the comment was made in jest? Are you seriously reading so far into the comment as to assume it's making fun of the customer base? You are seriously out of touch here.

If you cannot adapt to the ministrel class changes, then it seems like this is a skill issue, not a class issue.. Very loud vocal minority here on the forums complaining about the new mini, whereas it seems like the general consensus of the people actually playing the class is that the changes were positive.

[Daec]

If this is a server regularly used by SSG representatives and the post is real then SSG should publish the discord server information and invite people to join it. There have been many posts about this mystery server. One would think if SSG is regularly interacting in a discord with 5k members they would publish the information.

Note to SSG: This is another example of communication issues with the player base. Different devs use different media and ignore the official forums for feedback if what is said here is true. It doesn't matter if you are a big or small company, customer service is customer service and small companies don't grow if they ignore the customers. This is why someone like me gets frustrated. I follow your rules by using the forums and find out they really don't mean anything and they are there for show because you only want feedback from a select group. This may not be true but it is the appearance that has been created by using multiple forums and ignoring and the official forums for feedback.

They are under no obligation to advertise a player run discord, nor should they. Since i am not sure of the rules around posting links on the forums a simple "Ghyn lotro discord" search on google will yield the results you desire.

Also to be clear just because they don't reply to every post on the forums doesn't mean its ignored.

[Neinda]

They are under no obligation to advertise a player run discord, nor should they. Since i am not sure of the rules around posting links on the forums a simple "Ghyn lotro discord" search on google will yield the results you desire.

Also to be clear just because they don't reply to every post on the forums doesn't mean its ignored.

I was pointing out the inconsistency in communications more than anything. I don't think we should all jump into a player run discord but I do think SSG needs to decide if they are using the forums, discord, facebook, twitter, reddit, twitch, youtube, tik tok or whatever going forward and state which media provides which type of information. Nothing wrong with using some or all of them but make it consistent and make the information available. When there is an appearance of favoritism toward various groups it leaves many of us irritated and annoyed. And...call me foolish but I have a hard time believing a dev would make fun of the customer base in public. That comment seemed more like something a troll would post to make the dev look bad. Sticking with official forums for sharing and receiving feedback would prevent trolls from making it appear the dev is laughing at us.

[Daec]

I was pointing out the inconsistency in communications more than anything. I don't think we should all jump into a player run discord but I do think SSG needs to decide if they are using the forums, discord, facebook, twitter, reddit, twitch, youtube, tik tok or whatever going forward and state which media provides which type of information. Nothing wrong with using some or all of them but make it consistent and make the information available. When there is an appearance of favoritism toward various groups it leaves many of us irritated and annoyed. And...call me foolish but I have a hard time believing a dev would make fun of the customer base in public. That comment seemed more like something a troll would post to make the dev look bad. Sticking with official forums for sharing and receiving feedback would prevent trolls from making it appear the dev is laughing at us.

The information is readily available, all you have to do it visit the place where its posted, and you have it. There is no favoritism, its there for all to see if you choose to participate.

[Neinda]

The information is readily available, all you have to do it visit the place where its posted, and you have it. There is no favoritism, its there for all to see if you choose to participate.

Thanks. You are actually the first person who even mentioned the name of the mystery discord server being used.

They key word I used was "appearance" of favoritism. It doesn't matter much if it is real or false when it appears to be something on the surface. Once people get the "appearance" of something it is difficult to convince them otherwise.

Besides, I think it would be fantastic to see hobbit tik tok videos on how to upgrade your LIs and other things in game.

[Arnenna]

It is not even about restricting non-raider feedback, it is more about people who do not understand how the game works either giving feedback that would inevitably result in bad class changes or simply hating change in any form (which is the case Leakie was referring to). Players who only do landscape content have no need for decent class balance and in many ways do not understand what class balance depends on. Relying on feedback from players who have poor understanding of the game leads to classes being overtuned (and they all are overtuned for landscape now) and to other similar problems. Casual players matter but they are much more likely to give poorly thought through feedback.

I get what you're saying, but, players that only do landscape content understand how the game works for how they play it - just fine. They do not have poor understanding of the game - the way they play the game. They may not get group mechanics or utilise their class to its fullest potential, but who's fault is that when landscape doesn't require it. The game on landscape has always been easy, and it has never, in my opinion, taught a player how to utilise a class fully. Only group content does that.

"Casual players matter but . . . " There it is, that little word - but. But just undoes whatever is said before it. Casual players matter but - they don't matter.

As for not relying on those players you are dismissing due to some misconception that they may give poorly thought out feedback that may result in a class being overtuned . . . you played a red minstrel under these changes yet? They melt everything around them out on landscape. It wasn't casual players that influenced that.

As I said earlier, I didn't test the changes, I waited for it to hit live, because SSG will do what they want, regardless of feedback. I am fine with the changes. I don't have time to raid at the moment due to RL, and when I take a mini into a raid, I'm always in blue, so the loss of yellow line, pre-battle powering up aside, is not going to be a problem.

I get what other people are saying though. These changes weren't brought in as well as they could have been. 1. They were drastic and heavy, rather than gradual - so wrecking ball actually fits quite well, regardless of outcome. 2. They weren't tested for long enough or by a wide enough audience (player variation). 3. Discussion (as in two way discussion) should have taken place on the official threads here, as well as the discord channel.

SSG set themselves up for the flack they got. If they had done it more in line with full inclusion in mind, and taken the time to address some of the "poorly thought out feedback," it may have been better received.

At the end of the day, casual players help pay the bills. We don't allow the most intelligent person in the classroom to set the bar, when everyone is paying the exam fee.

[OnnMacMahal]

Hi everyone. Let’s get a few things straight.

As Cordovan has stated before, we don’t have the resources to host and moderate an official Discord server. That said, there are several public Discord servers where some developers watch feedback or interact with players. Both the ‘Ghyniverse’ and the ‘Lotro Community’ Discords have large numbers of active players and, along with the forums, are helpful tools for engaging with the player community.

While I don’t appreciate a single quotation being taken out of context here, it should be clear that this comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I apologize if it hurt anyone’s feelings; some folks were upset about the lack of a new raid, and I was making light of the fact that class changes are 'technically' content, as they change how you engage with existing encounters (also a little tongue-in-cheek, considering the minstrel class plays nearly the same now as it did prior to 33.2).

Regarding overall feedback. It should be clear from the rounds of changes for 33.2, and from my other forum posts, that I have read all of the minstrel feedback posted on the forums. The simple fact is that posting on the forums can take quite a lot longer than making brief comments on Discord. To several of you, I even asked pointed questions about your gameplay and feedback in that forum thread, which you declined to answer. I don't take that as a slight: it's a lot of effort to respond to questions like those. But at the end of the day, the most important part of taking your feedback is for us to read it, rather than respond to it. Responding to each and every note would leave no time at all for actually doing the work of making designs and implementing changes. And while T4-5 raiders might feel some changes more than most, even the raiders are disappointed to hear us say that we can't make changes with only raiders in mind. It is equally important that classes be well-designed and balanced for low-level players, players on Legendary servers or in level-locked groups, and players who play 'casually' (though that word has different meanings for different folks).

And as I’ve said before, many things about the recent minstrel revision were changed explicitly due to feedback from non-raider players. Keeping track of Anthems and slow inductions in particular were addressed by significant changes I made (with no small amount of effort). In other cases, like the Piercing Cry stun, it’s simply better for the overall health of the game. The Dissonance, red-line minstrel is not a CC-support class, and though I know many of you were upset to lose it, it didn’t make sense for minstrels to have access to stronger and more frequent stuns than classes which are designed around that paradigm, like Lore-masters and Burglars. In other cases, feedback was contradictory, such as telling me that Piercing Cry must keep its stun, but that improved damage also makes the game too easy.

At the end of the day, not everyone will be pleased by every change. We’re also, as individuals, unable to respond to each and every comment, but that does not mean we’re not listening. I have always stated that I appreciate any and all feedback, and I consider all feedback seriously. You are all players of the game, and we value your insight. Comments like ‘changes are set in stone’ or ‘SSG never listens to any feedback’ do us all a disservice. We all love this game, and we all want to improve it and for it to succeed, for all of its players, from the new-to-MMOs individuals just dipping their toes into the water, to the folks who’ve found a second home in this community, to those who’ve spent countless hours rigorously testing mechanics and diagramming out hidden systems, to the raiders and PvPers who relentlessly push the limits of their builds and their mastery of each class. Please keep that in mind going forward, and know that we’re all on the same team here.

[elvenes]

it still doesn't justify complete silence over here. You could have copied some of your discord posts over here for people to read about changes and such, and people would have been a lot less frustrated and with a feeling of being ignored. But anyway, welcome back! hope communication will correct its course from now on

[Fadil]

Hi everyone. Let’s get a few things straight.

As Cordovan has stated before, we don’t have the resources to host and moderate an official Discord server. That said, there are several public Discord servers where some developers watch feedback or interact with players. Both the ‘Ghyniverse’ and the ‘Lotro Community’ Discords have large numbers of active players and, along with the forums, are helpful tools for engaging with the player community.

/Cheers.
I do hope you see that the critics are very few and unfortunately very vocal on these forums.
I appreciate the communications/ efforts you put in and the changes that were made during the BR phases.
I play mini as my main and I like the changes made to the class.

I agree that posting a screenshot of an innocent joke is kinda lame, especially when it (ofc) presents an out of context view of what was said.
But we're (mostly) all grown ups, a little joke here and there wont kill anyone.

[elvenes]

/Cheers.
I do hope you see that the critics are very few and unfortunately very vocal on these forums.
I appreciate the communications/ efforts you put in and the changes that were made during the BR phases.
I play mini as my main and I like the changes made to the class.

I agree that posting a screenshot of an innocent joke is kinda lame, especially when it (ofc) presents an out of context view of what was said.
But we're (mostly) all grown ups, a little joke here and there wont kill anyone.

they don't need babysitters you know

[Neinda]

Hi everyone. Let’s get a few things straight.

Comments like ‘changes are set in stone’ or ‘SSG never listens to any feedback’ do us all a disservice. .

Feel free to correct me but I believe it was SSG that informed us the mini changes were set in stone while they were still on BR. The player base did not come up with that comment on their own. If I am wrong, my aplogies.

And since the discord folks seem to know more about what was involved with the mini revamp maybe you should cut and paste a copy of the information here for those of us who are uninformed. I don't personally see a need to join your discord since I don't anticipate the mini will be changing in the foreseeable future. Maybe seeing the discord posts will help us to understand why the changes required being rushed through to live with the details/fine tuning to be completed some day in the future.

I am annoyed with myself because I honestly thought someone was trolling you with that post and that it was fake to make you and SSG look bad. Lesson learned. Sometimes we can actually believe what we see on the internet.

My opinion (obviously not shared by many others) is that a 16 year old game should be making things easy and fun to play. Making it complicated after this many years seems to be an odd direction when most games out there these days are so much more basic with skills and how they are used. Hopefully it is successful and attracts more people to the class and the game.

While you may consider it wonderful and easy to play, it is now a key masher and not user friendly to some of us with wrist and hand issues and using show only dispellable effects to track buff status is not exactly user friendly for those with vision issues. These types of issues, in my opinion, need to be considered too when you make changes.

[Fadil]

they don't need babysitters you know

No one needs you to comment on other poster's posts either, yet here we are.
Grow up.

[elvenes]

No one needs you to comment on other poster's posts either, yet here we are.
Grow up.

likewise

[Askelin]

Really comes across to me as though there are players on the forums who are just jealous that developers are talking to people who aren't them, and that their arguments are just a front to restrict the developers from communicating in channels outside of the forums.

it still doesn't justify complete silence over here. You could have copied some of your discord posts over here for people to read about changes and such, and people would have been a lot less frustrated and with a feeling of being ignored. But anyway, welcome back! hope communication will correct its course from now on

It hasn't been complete silence though, we're seeing more developer communication now than we did say, 2 years ago.

Here's the thing about posting on the forums, even outside of "it takes longer".
Everything posted by a blue name on the forums is taken as the gospel of OFFICIAL, CONFIRMED AND SET IN STONE.
So when Orion posts his initial thoughts on guardians as a thread on the forums - because he wanted to provide more transparency because people have come to expect it now. - He was met with a barrage of "THIS IS BAD!"
Which okay fair enough if it were changes that were going into a upcoming bullroarer, that could open a discussion, feedback could be given. But Orion was just posting what he was thinking about doing and it set people into overdrive, it wasn't just criticism, it was straight up attacks because people took it out of the context of "initial thoughts". It doesn't matter if you put it in big red letters that "this is not set in stone", some people here see the a post from a developer and get charged up.

When it gets relatively quiet from the developers, it's usually because they're busy working... Sounds like a cope I know, but that's the thing. It's how they operate, it's known. And you see more discussion on discord during the crunch because it's simply much much quicker to have Discord open on a tab and just quickly type a quick message, have a quick back and forth while working instead of formatting a more in depth official post on the forums... A post that many will read and many will get very angry over if it's deemenot enough.

they don't need babysitters you know

Then why are you treating the developers as children? They're able to talk outside the forums like a human being. They're not beholden to the exact ruleset people on the forums may have in mind for them.

And since the discord folks seem to know more about what was involved with the mini revamp maybe you should cut and paste a copy of the information here for those of us who are uninformed.

What information are you looking for exactly? Everything said on discord was later finalized and made more readable for the forums. I don't think it's worth the extra time and effort compiling chat logs from Discord just to share information that will just be put out on the forums in a much more official and concise way when it is ready.

Much of the talk on Discords are simple back and forths between players and the two developers, speculating and discussing, actively talking to players rather than providing lists of finalized changelogs there. Because really, people on the forums will get relevant information when it is ready to be discussed and tested on, and this isn't really all that different on Discord.
Nothing stops you from joining the server, it's open and it's public, but it's not official which scares some people for whatever reason.

While you may consider it wonderful and easy to play, it is now a key masher and not user friendly to some of us with wrist and hand issues and using show only dispellable effects to track buff status is not exactly user friendly for those with vision issues. These types of issues, in my opinion, need to be considered too when you make changes.

And throwing up all anthems and hitting piercing off cooldown wasn't as key mash-y to you?
Part of the minstrel's job in groups aside from healing is to keep an eye on debuffs other players have, and to cleanse them, this has been the norm since the game's conception. The same argument you make for keeping the game as casual friendly as possible can be made to justify keeping class identity and general challenge. The game has already been made casual and there's no reason to sacrifice identity for further casual balances.

There could be more to be done regarding minstrels, sure. But for someone who has genuine accessibility issues, there are many ways you can play that doesn't require you to put yourself in any challenge, you could simply not play group content, or you could make the UI bigger or simply ask people over voice comms if they need cleanses... Point is, there are so many ways to work around poor eyesight, lessened fine motor skills in the hands, bad reaction times, difficulty breathing through the nose, etc. But you cannot possibly expect the developers to completely gut anything engaging about a class because "press too many buttons".
I'd lose the will to play a Warden if, for example, they made gambits regular skills and removed the very thing that made them unique in the first place. Minstrels having to choose and keep certain buffs up depending on the situation is a mechanic of their class, it shouldn't just be "press all 3 anthems every 2 minutes".

[Neinda]

/Cheers.
I do hope you see that the critics are very few and unfortunately very vocal on these forums.
I appreciate the communications/ efforts you put in and the changes that were made during the BR phases.
I play mini as my main and I like the changes made to the class.

I agree that posting a screenshot of an innocent joke is kinda lame, especially when it (ofc) presents an out of context view of what was said.
But we're (mostly) all grown ups, a little joke here and there wont kill anyone.

Unfortunately, when someone is in a position of authority and a dev is in a position of authority, they set an example for others to follow. What a dev says will have much more meaning/weight than anything you or I might say. Probably it was an innocent joke that was taken out of context but in this electronic age we live in, everything we post is subject to being copied/pasted/shared/taken out of context/whatever. Hopefully it will be a lesson learned that what is posted will probably be shared when you least want it to be shared. The SSG representatives (right or wrong) have a higher standard as to what is acceptable when they post something.

[OnnMacMahal]

Feel free to correct me but I believe it was SSG that informed us the mini changes were set in stone while they were still on BR. The player base did not come up with that comment on their own. If I am wrong, my aplogies.

I take no offense, but this is another example of an incomplete quotation being taken out of context. Orion said on a stream that some Minstrel changes were set in stone. Not all of them, by any means. He was likely alluding to the fact that we had already committed to transforming the yellow trait tree into a non-specialization branch. And in fact, as he was saying that, I was actively implementing some changes following feedback from Bullroarer.

While you may consider it wonderful and easy to play, it is now a key masher and not user friendly to some of us with wrist and hand issues and using show only dispellable effects to track buff status is not exactly user friendly for those with vision issues. These types of issues, in my opinion, need to be considered too when you make changes.

As I said above, we consider all players and all playstyles, but I also fail to see how you support this statement. Before 33.2, maximizing anthem uptime meant you had to to press ~3 skills every 2-3 minutes. Now, maximizing anthems requires pressing 2-3 skills every 60-90 seconds. The overall frequency of key presses increased slightly, but the much more significant difference is that you can't press all your anthems in a row now. Aside from that change (which actually reduced the speed at which you could click all your anthem skills) I'm not sure how the class is more of a 'button masher.' Pressing more skills more often means having a higher 'Actions per Minute' (or APM), which generally improves your output, but that was the same prior to these changes. If anything, maximally-geared minstrel healers who were previously dancing near (or at) the -100% skill induction threshold before 33.2 are now forced to contend with a slightly lower APM, because even a small induction increase means they can't press as many buttons as quickly now.

(And for the record, I recommended showing both 'effects by me' and 'dispellable effects' as this reduces unnecessary effect clutter while healing. Your anthems will be most of the effects you see under your allies' vitals, making them much easier to track than they would be if you left every effect type turned on for your allies.)

[Neinda]

What information are you looking for exactly? Everything said on discord was later finalized and made more readable for the forums. I don't think it's worth the extra time and effort compiling chat logs from Discord just to share information that will just be put out on the forums in a much more official and concise way when it is ready.

Much of the talk on Discords are simple back and forths between players and the two developers, speculating and discussing, actively talking to players rather than providing lists of finalized changelogs there. Because really, people on the forums will get relevant information when it is ready to be discussed and tested on, and this isn't really all that different on Discord.
Nothing stops you from joining the server, it's open and it's public, but it's not official which scares some people for whatever reason.

Here's the problem. People who are getting info on discord give SSG rave reviews about interacting with the player base. Are they sharing anything useful or different? No idea. I didn't even know there was a discord being used by devs until all this mini stuff occurred so I really don't know if I missed any key information. Telling me that the discord folks did all the back and forth with the details and those of us on the forums got the finalized version doesn't really sell the idea. It is all about appearances. If it appears there are secrets, people will believe the worst. Avoiding those things that cause people to believe there are secret communications happening would solve some of the current animosity. It won't make things perfect but baby steps forward are better than giant steps backward.

[WeirdJedi]

Feel free to correct me but I believe it was SSG that informed us the mini changes were set in stone while they were still on BR. The player base did not come up with that comment on their own. If I am wrong, my aplogies.

The three Bullroarer phases were: 8/30, 9/7, 9/13. The release of the patch was 9/21. The changes to the speed of Anthems and how they refreshed with Lesser & Greater division were added in the third phase: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...-Beta-2-CLOSED. In the Q&A with Orion on 9/9, the quote that many like to reference was "the changes we are currently making to the minstrel... a lot of those changes are now set in stone or now will be changed in a minor way before the actual launch goes live." Honestly, we were essentially at the point of ending the second phase of Bullroarer when he made that statement. Take what he said about the class changes after that statement and you would think he was making a statement regarding the complaints about the yellow-line specialization.

[Neinda]

I take no offense, but this is another example of an incomplete quotation being taken out of context. Orion said on a stream that some Minstrel changes were set in stone. Not all of them, by any means. He was likely alluding to the fact that we had already committed to transforming the yellow trait tree into a non-specialization branch. And in fact, as he was saying that, I was actively implementing some changes following feedback from Bullroarer.




As I said above, we consider all players and all playstyles, but I also fail to see how you support this statement. Before 33.2, maximizing anthem uptime meant you had to to press ~3 skills every 2-3 minutes. Now, maximizing anthems requires pressing 2-3 skills every 60-90 seconds. The overall frequency of key presses increased slightly, but the much more significant difference is that you can't press all your anthems in a row now. Aside from that change (which actually reduced the speed at which you could click all your anthem skills) I'm not sure how the class is more of a 'button masher.' Pressing more skills more often means having a higher 'Actions per Minute' (or APM), which generally improves your output, but that was the same prior to these changes. If anything, maximally-geared minstrel healers who were previously dancing near (or at) the -100% skill induction threshold before 33.2 are now forced to contend with a slightly lower APM, because even a small induction increase means they can't press as many buttons as quickly now.

(And for the record, I recommended showing both 'effects by me' and 'dispellable effects' as this reduces unnecessary effect clutter while healing. Your anthems will be most of the effects you see under your allies' vitals, making them much easier to track than they would be if you left every effect type turned on for your allies.)

It really is a different play style for someone like me with old and sore wrists and hands. A champion makes my hands hurt too so I don't play the class. That is over and done with and nothing to be done about that problem for me. If the class makes my hands and wrists hurt my choice is to shelve it for now.

And I know you recommended the show only dispeallable effects which really is not user friendly to knowing which buffs need to be ready to be refreshed and when. That option has been around as long as I can remember and is not really what I was asking about. Those are tiny little boxes and on every character rather than building one bar sort of like the attunement bar for an RK or the gambit bar for a warden which is much more user friendly and visible. Building a much more visible buff status bar is completely within the control of SSG. Maybe someday when you look at the rest of the mini skills which need some attention you will consider making something that makes it more friendly to players than the tiny little boxes under each portrait. Key word being tiny.

[OnnMacMahal]

That option has been around as long as I can remember and is not really what I was asking about. Those are tiny little boxes and on every character rather than building one bar sort of like the attunement bar for an RK or the gambit bar for a warden which is much more user friendly and visible. Building a much more visible buff status bar is completely within the control of SSG. Maybe someday when you look at the rest of the mini skills which need some attention you will consider making something that makes it more friendly to players than the tiny little boxes under each portrait. Key word being tiny.

Fair enough. I didn't realize your core complaint was the small icon size. UI legibility and UI scaling are definitely issues a number of players bring up regularly, so while I can't say a minstrel-specific Anthem UI is currently in the cards, this is part of a broader concern that we do take seriously.

[Joedangod]

Fair enough. I didn't realize your core complaint was the small icon size. UI legibility and UI scaling are definitely issues a number of players bring up regularly, so while I can't say a minstrel-specific Anthem UI is currently in the cards, this is part of a broader concern that we do take seriously.

Gimme a functional target effect tracking API.

[Joedangod]

It really is a different play style for someone like me with old and sore wrists and hands. A champion makes my hands hurt too so I don't play the class. That is over and done with and nothing to be done about that problem for me. If the class makes my hands and wrists hurt my choice is to shelve it for now.

In an effort to clarify a bit, do you feel like it's the pace of ballads that's causing these problems?