Warg Stalker - Feedback

[Seattle2k11]

I have been using a warg for a long time now and even with these updates wargs are still going to die fast. The problem is none of our skills do enough damage to survive. If you do not have a defiler or war leader around you will die even if its a 1v1. I tested my warg on a slug on Bullroarer and the slug died just barely faster then on Arkenstone. I watched several fights on Bullroarer and wargs were dieing just as fast even though I did not see a lot of healing on freeps fighting them. There is not one class of freep that a moderately good warg such as myself could even have a chance with unless that freep has 700k or less in health. I know Spilo does a great job testing , but again he is a great player, is good at moving his toon around. I can not move like he does and without more health, damage etc, I will die just a little slower then I do now. The average warg player is not in the same class as Spilo. We used to be able to solo an op like burgs do but now it takes at least one other creep to do that. I used to take a bear down in 3 hits now it takes at least 4 or 5 (tested on Bullroarer). With freep healing, dps of hunter, damage by champs stay the same wargs will still die faster. This 1st beta is no better and we will still have a grams camp. What is happening now on Arkenstone is we will have multiple champs and hunter killing creeps and a couple of impossible to kill or stun healers camping us at grams. Even if you can get a champ down in health they just sprint away, same with guards. You need to sit in grams on Arkenstone and see what is actually happening before deciding what to do. We are not safe at grams unless you are inside the walls where most of the quest givers are, because of the range that the hunters, etc have. I have seen single champs, bears, rk's that 12 creeps could not kill.

[Spilo]

I have been using a warg for a long time now and even with these updates wargs are still going to die fast. The problem is none of our skills do enough damage to survive. If you do not have a defiler or war leader around you will die even if its a 1v1. I tested my warg on a slug on Bullroarer and the slug died just barely faster then on Arkenstone. I watched several fights on Bullroarer and wargs were dieing just as fast even though I did not see a lot of healing on freeps fighting them. There is not one class of freep that a moderately good warg such as myself could even have a chance with unless that freep has 700k or less in health. I know Spilo does a great job testing , but again he is a great player, is good at moving his toon around. I can not move like he does and without more health, damage etc, I will die just a little slower then I do now. The average warg player is not in the same class as Spilo. We used to be able to solo an op like burgs do but now it takes at least one other creep to do that. I used to take a bear down in 3 hits now it takes at least 4 or 5 (tested on Bullroarer). With freep healing, dps of hunter, damage by champs stay the same wargs will still die faster. This 1st beta is no better and we will still have a grams camp. What is happening now on Arkenstone is we will have multiple champs and hunter killing creeps and a couple of impossible to kill or stun healers camping us at grams. Even if you can get a champ down in health they just sprint away, same with guards. You need to sit in grams on Arkenstone and see what is actually happening before deciding what to do. We are not safe at grams unless you are inside the walls where most of the quest givers are, because of the range that the hunters, etc have. I have seen single champs, bears, rk's that 12 creeps could not kill.

I do agree Shadow warg DPS is lack luster on the stronger Freep classes. Buffing Swipe/Rend damage would help (the pounce buff on Rend is a really cool idea if Rend did more damage), as would giving Snap! a damage component as well/making SnS 100% crit PC as well.

[Spilo]

Updated feedback from BR round 2:

"The three variants of 'Howl' are once again Immediate skills.
Tendon Shred is now correctly affected by the 'Slavering Fangs' corruption buff from Pounce.
Piercing Claws now correctly benefits from the 'Scratch' buff from Feral Scratch and Snip."

All great changes, thank you! Have some feedback for both Flayer and Shadow, and I'm going to prioritize the most important changes (in my opinion) by creating a hierarchy of needs at the bottom of the feedback.


SHADOW:

Overall Shadow damage still feels too low, see the below comparison (Shadow on the left)- auto attacks were disabled, but will have no tangible impact on the DPS comparison between Flayer and Shadow:



This was with a target standing in Puddle, too- something that never happens in open field fights and is inconsistent in Group fights. Shadow only was around 8-10% more DPS than Flayer, despite being significantly squishier and contributing less utility.

Shadow warg should aim to have around 30-35% more DPS than Flayer and should have slightly worse utility.

To make this happen:

1. Reduce cooldown of Scratch and Snip to 10s (from 15s). Loving the new autocrit buff, but Scratch and Snip's CD is too long in the quick and dynamic Warg rotation- this mechanic needs to be made available more often. Because FERAL Scratch and Snip is Shadow only, this would help Shadow DPS.
2. Buff Eye Gouge and Swipe damage specifically while in Shadow. Both of these skills have utility in Flayer, but in Shadow, Swipe's damage is far too low, and Eye Gouge's damage is lower than the damage component on the debuff skills (Throat Rip/Cripple/Shadow Fangs). Buffing each of these by 20-25% while in shadow seems to be a decent ballpark goal.
3. Introduce the Rend-tiering system for Shadow stance. This was a suggestion I had earlier, but making it Shadow stance exclusive would help deal with the Flayer/Shadow discrepancy, as well as increase Shadow warg utility. Leave Rend's initial application at 10% in Shadow, but on second application, have it strengthen the debuff to 15% incoming damage. I do not think tiering from 5, to 10, to 15% is a good idea (as I once suggested), as I think it would nerf Shadow warg's utility in burst situations- 3 tiers of Rend would just take too long to place on a burst target.
4. Lastly, something to consider if one or more of the other options aren't viable, buff the Shadow stance passive buff from +15% Melee damage to something much higher, 45% or perhaps more (or make it multiplicative). It's an additive mastery % calculation, so Shadow Warg has actually been indirectly stealth nerfed every update as the mastery cap rises. Every time mastery goes up, Shadow warg's relative DPS goes down.

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Flayer:

Overall Flayer seems to be in a really solid spot- a 100% uptime 25% inc heal debuff, decent single target DPS, extremely potent defense levels, and various potent attack duration/induction debuffs. I would argue that it's defensives are too high, and that it could use slightly more expansion in its utility.

1. Reduce incoming Melee/Ranged damage Flayer buff from 10% to 5%. It stacks with Audacity, it stacks with food- it's just strong to a sort of silly level. The bubble buff was nice, the extra Beleriand mit buff was nice, the 5% will be nice- that's more than enough.
2. Flayer Brutal Fangs needs to be tied to Mits, not armor. This is anywhere from 1-2% mit debuff, which is simply too low to hold serious relevance. Increasing this to 4-5% would add another tool in Flayer warg's kit without breaking the bank (Creeps need more mit debuffs as well).

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OVERALL:


1. Please revert Sprint change- it's used as a skill cutter, it's used a defensive skill in group fights (to avoid melee train)- its status as an immediate was crucial on both counts.
2. Fleas/Interrupts. Interrupt and Eye gouge still needs to be looked at (internal 7s CD is still the best option), but in the mean time, please just revert Fleas. Nobody asked for an additional passive interrupt.
3. Consider sustain/defensive options. Using crit response as tools to unlock defensive skills is something we can take from Reavers (but applies infinitely better with the consistent crits from Wargs)- working Frenzy to apply a mit buff instead of evade rating is one step, but I would like to see Rabid bite turn into a small DoT that also applies a 10s HoT on the warg (that heals for around 100-150k total every 10s). This DoT/HoT would increase in potency by 30-40% when consuming a crit response. There's some ideas here that I'd be interested in seeing experimented with.
4. Little detail to add, the Pounce corruption is cool, but sadly suffers from the same issues as Scratch and Snip- too long of an animation, and too long of a skill cooldown. If Pounce's animation were to be shortened, and the skill CD reduced to 10s, that would help!
EDIT: Would be cool to move the mit debuff from Howl of the Unnverving to Rabid bite instead of the HoT idea (buff its damage too).


BUGFIXES/BETA ISSUES:


1. Please fix Shadow Fangs- still showing 25% inductions instead of 45% as listed.
2. Please Fix Snap! It does not reduce outgoing damage multiplicatively (at least on actual damage applied). If this isn't something easily fixed, the best solution would be to simply increase its potency to 20% (so that it ends up being in the 10% reduction ballpark) AND giving it a damage component. You can remove the Silence/Disarm component- it's dumb.

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Priority List for Warg:

1. BUG FIXES/BETA ISSUES
2. SHADOW DPS/UTILITY:
3. REVERTING SPRINT/FLEAS
4. ADDRESS EYE GOUGE INTERRUPT
5. FLAYER ADJUSTMENTS
6. SUSTAIN/DEFENSIVE OPTIONS WITH FRENZY/RABID BITE


Appreciate your work!

[Fulgurix]

The three variants of 'Howl' are once again Immediate skills.
Tendon Shred is now correctly affected by the 'Slavering Fangs' corruption buff from Pounce.
Piercing Claws now correctly benefits from the 'Scratch' buff from Feral Scratch and Snip.

Good changes, and thank you for the fixes. In my opinion we need to look at shadow stance cooldowns (rotation still feels disconnected with the new buffs and bit clunky) and making it a viable option (flayer is too good right now, without real drawbacks). I've come up with something i think might help address these issues and make this stance more fun to play.

***

SHADOW - INTRODUCING CRIT CHAIN:

Reduce cooldown of 'Swipe'
Reduce cooldown of 'Scratch and Snip' to 10 seconds
Shadow stance now adds 15% positional damage to all skills -> this will make shadow more appealing against the many positives of being in flayer, strengthen the identity of the stance and reward good positioning without simply buffing base damage.

Swipe becomes 'Feral Swipe' -> gives Shadow Strike (+ 100% crit chance for the next skill - remove the buff from SnS)
Snap! becomes 'Snap from the shadow!' (25s cooldown very small flat heal - keep the damage debuff - this skill can critical hit and it has increased critical magnitude)

Using Rend flesh unlocks Feral Swipe -> Rend is already a crit response skill, so the base setup is already there.

So the chain will be composed by 2 skills: Rend-> Swipe-> Crit Buff. From now we will have a choice:

1. Following with Piercing claws/SnS for maximizing damage (alternating between the two, given the high cooldown) and consuming the swipe buff (100% crit)
OR
2. Using Snap from the shadow! - sacrificing damage and consuming the buff for a guaranteed critical flat heal


I personally don't like Scratch and Snip as a buff skill, i think it is more fitting as a 'long animation high damage' skill. These changes will give skill variety to the stance and more importantly choises and options during a fight, with the appropriate drawbacks.

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SUGGESTIONS

Remove the pulsing interrupt from Fleas and increase the Shadow Fang induction debuff to 40% - a pulsing interrupt is bad, we can't control it and the class have enough ways to interrupt inductions in melee, while making shadow fang debuff stronger will help with the extremely short induction times on freepside at the moment.

Move away the damage from Tendon Shred - it doesn't make sense to have such high damage on a stun skill.

***

BUGS

Pounce 2nd attack out of stealth doesn't crit when affected by 'Scent of Blood'.