Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

[Repriever]

This thread is kind of inspired by another thread just below about how hard it is to find healers or why people don't want to play them. If you read through this thread you'll find one complaint after another from healers saying they won't do PUGs because of tanks who can't hold aggro, hunters and champions who can't manage their aggro and all manner of complaints about players how simply can't play their chosen class.

So... why should this be? Can I just say firstly that this has always been a problem in MMO's. Some people just won't bother to learn their class at all for one reason or another. It's not a new thing, but in LOTRO in particular I think I can explain why the problem may be more severe.

What happens when you die in LOTRO? What is the penalty? A repair bill? LOL to that. You will NEVER have an MMO where people who learn their class is the norm if there are no consequences to blindly wading through the content without a care in the world and naught but a very minor setback if you die. It's one of the things I really don't like about this game. It may be a casual players dream come true not having to think at all from level 1 to level 65 but for someone who likes to play in groups where everyone knows what they're doing it's an absolute nightmare.

I am not knocking the game here, I have come to love LOTRO despite initial misgivings about the lack of an open community but I really think it's ridiculous to expect good players in a game that pretty much plays itself and doesn't punish you when you die. I'm taking a guess here that most players in LOTRO don't even know what most of their skills do and forget about them as soon as they train them as long as they know what the important DPS buttons are.

Things have changed. Everything has changed. MMO's aren't even worthy of the name anymore they are so solo friendly. So, I guess play with your kinmates and you'll be fine but the days of wandering out into the wilderness and finding a killer PUG are absolutely dead and buried it's never going to happen again in this MMO or any other. Casual and solo play is king.

[Trilwych]

This thread is kind of inspired by another thread just below about how hard it is to find healers or why people don't want to play them. If you read through this thread you'll find one complaint after another from healers saying they won't do PUGs because of tanks who can't hold aggro, hunters and champions who can't manage their aggro and all manner of complaints about players how simply can't play their chosen class.

?

Answer seems simple.

Most people do know how to play their class.... In solo. Group synergy (aggro management) skills and solo questing skills are different things. So there it is.

[Grendaran]

Could you unpack the phrase "lack of an open community", please?

[Trilwych]

Oh, sorry. I kind of glazed over there. I guess the title wasn't an actual question.

Keep in mind the setting for these complaints is within the PUG. That means.... competent players are already in kinships or kept in a tight circle of friends/allies. Nothing wrong with that.

[Repriever]

Could you unpack the phrase "lack of an open community", please?

Outside of instances and dungeons nobody even talks to each other let alone groups. Everyone does their own thing. When WoW is dead all MMO's will be like this. It's what casual players wanted, an MMO they play themselves with chat facilities. It's what they got, and all future MMO's will be like this because that's where the money is for the publishers.

I hated WoW by the way but at least it's a 'real' MMO, it's not a single player game. I'll say again I love this game but it doesn't feel like an MMO at all to me. It's a wonderfully crafted game nonetheless. Great scenery, interesting classes, excellent crafting and of course... Tolkien.

[Repriever]

Oh, sorry. I kind of glazed over there. I guess the title wasn't an actual question.

It's a question other people keep asking. I gave an answer.

[ArtemisNoir]

I prefer to duo with friends, I prefer to run instances with kinmates. I very rarely PUG, I enjoy solo gameplay.
So I suppose I am one of those people..

That being said, I think a large part of the problem has very little to do with the death penalty, or lack thereof.
Rather, I think it is because people can entirely avoid grouping until end game. Yet.. I am not a believer in forced grouping, so this is something of a conundrum for me.
I'm not precisely sure what the solution is either.

I also think that sometimes people just aren't especially good players, no matter what. I know one person who has been playing since beta.. and no matter which character they are playing... they are just not very skilled. A very nice person.. a mixed blessing to be in a group with.
Maybe this individual has too many alts and just knows how to level them to 65... thus they have a somewhat superficial understanding of each class.

I don't know..

I really am not convinced that the forgiving death penalty is a huge cause though... maybe an aspect of it, but not an integral part.

[Garethporlest18]

I see a lot of people grouping or asking for groups on the servers I play on. Maybe not everyone but there's a large chunk of people doing it, and both of my kin's do it as well. They also have teams setup to help people get used to the fellowship and raid play styles.

I don't think I've ever fellowed with people who didn't know how to use their class. Most of the time, it's me who's not used to it. Because I usually run solo, so I tell them beforehand and try to learn (or re-learn depending on the class I use) the skill usage all over again. With Guardian it isn't so challenging, you use taunts and threat generating attack skills, watch out for AoE at certain times and repeat basically. There are some skills I'm not sure how to use, like shield wall, but I know how to use most of my skills and when to use them, when playing that class. Same thing for Champion it isn't that difficult.

Healing and CC however, something I've never done really so I'm not used to it. But the people I group with if I do group with are usually understanding and will help me to learn, and if I PUG they usually are too (sometimes).

But yeah people just need to ask and want to learn and stop rushing through the game and read their skills when they get them and if they take a break from that class, read them when they go back to that class. Also try to use all the skills while playing, whether it's solo or grouping.

[Leo_Dan]

I'm taking a guess here that most players in LOTRO don't even know what most of their skills do and forget about them as soon as they train them as long as they know what the important DPS buttons are.

Most people don't/can't read anything so they have no idea how to play the game.

[Khafar]

So... why should this be?

Basically, because people are playing in the ways that they find to be fun, not to win the approval of strangers. For many, that means they learn how to solo effectively - but aren't grand at groups. Some hate grinding out Virtues (or ever-better LIs), so they don't. Others don't get into the whole "maximize your spreadsheet" thing, and don't bother chasing optimal stats. They're doing what they enjoy, whether that be questing, crafting, roleplaying, assorted completionist activities, music, chatting with friends, playing the market on the AH, etc. It's their money, and their time -- and it's nobody else's business how they choose to spend it, or what they find to be fun. They don't exist in order to make your groups better.

MMO's aren't even worthy of the name anymore they are so solo friendly.

Well, I started out in an MMO that was probably the most solo-friendly ever made (Asheron's Call), so for me they never have meant "Thou Shalt Group To Do Fun/Meaningful Things". Just "lots of people playing an online game together, having fun in a wide variety of ways". I prefer the latter definition.

Casual and solo play is king.

No, money is king. And mass market is where the money is.

Khafar

[A.B.]

I have been in um.. 4 small fellowships from lvl 1 to lvl 55, 2 of them were in the last week. I have played a ton of MMOs so I would think I've hid my ignorance well, but I know very little about grouping in this game.

Examples.. Ebbing/rising ire (stealing and gifting aggro) and aggro building attacks are a mystery to me, and here's the humiliating one.. I have no idea how those 4 colored circle things work, I've had maybe 5-6 of them pop up total, as soon as I see it I hammer the red circle and hope for the best.

The problem is everyone solos. I can't speak for other kins, but in mine everyone is a higher level, so there's no fellowship available there.. honestly Moria is the first zone where I've seen people looking for groups, the opportunity to practice your skills are few and far between in the early going.. if you can't practice you're never going to improve.

[rogerwroten]

Here is the problem and the answer as I see it...

Most, not all, PUGs do not take the time to explain what is expected of group members. They just assume (and we all now what that means) everyone knows what they are doing.

[Ayrolen]

?

Answer seems simple.

Most people do know how to play their class.... In solo. Group synergy (aggro management) skills and solo questing skills are different things. So there it is.

Pretty much. People solo their way to cap, doing as little grouping as possible, then they want to play at endgame to get all of the shinies and they suck hard at grouping. And sadly, a lot of them don't want any advice or understand why the other people in the group get so frustrated because they have no idea what Purge Poison is or that they have other skills besides Bolster Courage.

[Keyshana]

My personal problem is not that I do not know how to play my class, but that (this is directed at all of those that complain about how no one can play well, not to the OP in particular) :

1. I play my class in a way that suits ME. Not you, not him, not her. ME. I actually do quite well in groups, if you want me to be support. If you want me to be dps/powerfeeder/backup heals/mez master/etc... then I can actually do most of that. But NOT if you tell me I have to trait the way YOU think I should, play the way YOU want me to, and, basically, play your LM for you, because you are also tanking.

2. I am new to many of the instances, because I don't like to pug (for the reasons I'm listing). Due to this, I don't know my way around, need a bit of guidance, and make mistakes.

3. That's right, I make mistakes. Everyone does. But you know what? You feel you are so uber perfect that, when I do make a mistake, you hammer on it. You deride me in raid chat, tell me what a fail I am (remember, I've never been IN this instance), and I should just quit the game because I am not as good as you. With that attitude, why should I not only not want to group with you, but not tell everyone I know what a monumental 'tard you are?

4. You don't want me, anyway. You want one of your friends who is not on, and I am a poor substitute. You want that OP LM that you advertise for. The excellent, top rank, uber LM. I'm not that. So I'm not even going to offer.

If you want people to group with that play their class, stop asking for them to be something they are not. Just because we do not play our class like you do, or like you want us to, does not mean we do not know what we are doing. If you gave us a chance, instead of demanding us to be just a hair less uber than you (no way we can be better, after all), you might find out that most of us not only can play, but can play better than you think.

[creepy61]

My Minstrel used to be a bad healer until i started playing in groups as he used to play solo. As a minstrel i found that most players where telling me to heal them and i should keep their morale above a certain level. Usually i told them the Guard or Tank will always have the first preference ,followed by the healer. This is where the trouble starts most players do not understand the principle behind group playing and their role and importance.

As i been afk from Lotro for over a year i can see that many things have changed in principle which is rather disturbing too for the pre moria players. The FTP system has opened many problems such as buying traits and such something which a paying user would normally have if they leveled up correctly. Next thing is botting is is rife and really shows its ugly head in instances. For instance getting in group where one player is controlling either 2 or 3 others you have to wonder which one has preference. As a Healer i follow my principles Tank first ,Healer second and DPS last. If all 3 characters die then i blame the botter for lack of control and usually leave.

The Other mainstream problem is Kinships are being given too players who just want a Kinhouse for Banking space this is discouraging to players looking for a kinship to learn how to play. Or for Botting purpose's. In general the kinship's i see now are too small and not enough players that want to help except for raising their kinship rank ,this is where it stops.

Bad playing is most common because solo play is rewarded as solo play ,not as grouping. Skills are not gained even in skirmishes even if they have a group. Bottom line is Players are too fussy and expect to be hand held in most instance's up too the last boss. This shows with the new Quest system for instances either in Fellowship or Greater influence mode (Solo). The Looking for Fellowship tool needs to be vastly improved too.

[Zarador]

Because some players spend so much time insuring that they are "doing it right" that they forget to have fun along the way. Going back to the "old school" days of "hardcore" raiding I can recall quite a few raids that were so scripted and planned out by the elite groups that the fun of raiding was extinguished. This of course led to a complete dress down of any player that missed the cue and dropped the ball causing a wipe. (see grouping must be productive and ultra rewarding for further explanation).

Players then stood up and told gaming companies they rather have fun as a solo/duo and not be forced to put up with "One Raid Leader to Rule them All". Games were then changed so a great deal of the game could be experienced without groups and raids and the masses joined in and (get this) had fun playing their way.

This of course did not sit well with the players that explained that end game is where it's all at; call us when you reach end game. They expected these players to find groups along the way with the other players enjoying their solo play. Of course they could have joined in with the occasional PUG of elites rushing through 2 hours of content for the gold ring in 15 minutes while being told to sit back and watch their greatness. Please, don't read the quests and try not to do anything bad.

[Trilwych]

To be perfectly honest, "why" isn't even an important question at this point.

Nor is "How can we fix this?" the real question.

No, the real question is... "Should this be fixed at all?"

I'm serious. If Turbine's various marketing ploys and in-game tinkering have increased its game share and revenues, that means whatever target audience has indeed been coming in. It always comes down to the trail of $, for better or worse.

[KualaBangoDango]

I just hit 65 for the first time on my character, a burglar, and I DON'T know how to play my class and these are some of the reasons why...

1) Too many skills!

I'm serious. All 4 of my mid-screen hotbars are full of skills. That's 48 right there. Plus I have some overflowing onto my sidebars. I haven't counted them all but I'd guess I have a little over 50 skills. There's no way I'm ever gonna use all of them. Many of them are so situational that whenever the situation arises where I COULD use them I've already forgotten I have a skill for it. I'd estimate that I only use half of these skills on a regular basis. For me it really DOES come down to pressing the same 5 or 6 buttons over and over again during a fight (regular fights of course...harder fights may take an additional few buttons).

I noticed this same problem on my Minstrel whom I've only gotten to level 46 so I can only assume other classes suffer the same problem.

What this means is that many players (or at least me) are so unfamiliar with a large part of what their class can do that when they're grouped with others and those "situational" moments DO finally come into play we're too slow to take advantage of the skill, have forgotten about the skill, or realize it's just easier and faster to fight through the situation without using the skill.

2) Most of the solo-able content is too easy!

This is due to several reasons. A - It's designed to be easy enough for players of all ages/abilities in order to keep people from being frustrated and leaving the game. B - There's so many quests that players continually out-level, and therefore trivialize, the content we're doing. It's usually so easy that most players don't NEED to learn the "best" way to play our characters because just about "any" way will work just as well.

Then we hit group stuff and the "any" way no longer works but it's too late, we don't know the better ways to do things.

3) Groups are often hard to find on-level!

Thanks to the terrible quality of the group-finding tool, as well as sometimes low population in certain areas, when we DO run into harder or group content it's often so hard to find enough on-level players in the area to do the content with that many players have to resort to calling on kin/friends of higher level to "help out". This means we often end up getting steamrolled through the instance or content and end up not learning the intricacies, or importance of, good teamwork or communication.

Evidence of this problem is the huge number of players who refuse to run GS (for example), which is a level 56 instance, with anyone who is NOT in their 60's...65 being the preferred level.

4) There's more but I'm done for now!

[MonoLoco]

Examples.. Ebbing/rising ire (stealing and gifting aggro) and aggro building attacks are a mystery to me, and here's the humiliating one.. I have no idea how those 4 colored circle things work, I've had maybe 5-6 of them pop up total, as soon as I see it I hammer the red circle and hope for the best.

the red is direct damage to the target
yellow is small initial damage plus a dot (damage over time) effect
green restores your morale
blue restores your power

you can also combine them together for bigger and sometimes new effects. for example, 5 people hit red and 1 hits yellow. that does a massive damage to the target, the dot from the yellow, AND does aoe damage. last person picks blue it does massive damage to the target AND restores everyones power

my biggest problem with pugs tbh is that no one understands the simple command "everyone pick red" or "you pick green".....after everyone, or at least a good majority (ie like the 5/6 that werent afk at the time), has agreed on the cj. dont get me wrong i have no problem at all with helping out no matter how well you know the game, but at least go along with what the group agrees to do and if you dont like it then SAY SOMETHING so we can agree on something else

[Yula_the_Mighty]

Here is the problem and the answer as I see it...

Most, not all, PUGs do not take the time to explain what is expected of group members. They just assume (and we all now what that means) everyone knows what they are doing.

My issue when I join a PUG with my Minstrel. I am not willing to spend two hours doing a Grand Stairs run as I explain to them what to do.

I still have fond memories of joining a group before instance join. Telling the Captain summon me. What is a summon? Can we get In Defense of Middle Earth - Let me look - I do not have that skill. How about motivating speech - do I have that? You should. Let me look for it. That is followed me assigning parry and other buffs from the Captain - who did not know what these were. The other members were clueless as to what they preferred. The Captain did know what I meant when I asked them to transfer shield buddy to the Guardian instead of to their Herald.

Next it was time to start in on the Guardian. Who never used a threat skill or protected a buddy.

We got as far as the first boss where people refused to back up to the barricades. The Guardian one other were kicked over the edge. We lost everybody except for the Minstrel - me. I ran up the stairs to reset the boss. I had enough of this. Left after rezzing folks that were in reach.

I really do not mind explaining the Turbine scripting for a fight. Having to teach people to play in a group is a hassle at the same time - so much of it is getting them to use skills that they do not have on quick bars - do not what they are - do not what they do.

The problem is that they soloed to this point. In some cases, they may have only used six skills. Even ones that are useful in solo play - like motivating speech - do not get used. Most solo stuff is pretty easy. If you know how to use your damage skills you got it licked. I am sure the Captain I am picking on knew how to use all the damage skills.

You get Champions that do not know how to use Rising Ire, Ebbing Ire, Challenge - solo play - they are useless. You get Captains that do not know how to Combat Rez and summon. You get Hunters that do not know how to manage power, use Beneath Notice, manage aggro.

Some of them are very talented solo players. They are not all like that Captain that I been maligning - was not all the Captain could be because the Captain did not use Captain's buffs.

Bottom Line - When I am in a PUG like this. Nobody wants to wait for instructions. They want to do it. The group members can not work together to complete the content. You end up with - shut up Yula. I know how this is going to go. They are all going to die before getting to the first boss. This situation is only going to happen once. After I use Still as Death to survive. I am leaving.

[BigLotroFan]

The only bad way to play the game imo is to not have fun while playing it. I would guess that there are very few of those.

[Archriker]

people don't group enough. there's no NEED to group until late 50's to 60's to get moria armor and for some quests that are important. so they play 50-60 levels by themselves and then start grouping...my guard is a perfect example of this...I'm at level 55 on him and I have only done one group quest, and I wasn't the main tank so it didn't matter. And I don't play him much on top of that, so I have even more infrequent experience.

people also don't help others in PUG's...if the fellow is getting wiped, they just leave instead of stopping for a minute and telling whoever is screwing up how to stop screwing up...so the new guy doesn't learn.

as for hunters, I can't help you with that...because there is NOTHING hard about grouping as a hunter. the hardest thing you have to do is to remove poison constantly like in school/library (whichever one it is, I always get the 2 confused). If you are "new" to grouping, use endurance stance. otherwise...precision. don't be that piece of poo hunter in S:S shooting 3 times and then having to wait 30 seconds to shoot again so you don't pull. Give the tank 2-3k damage headstart, and then let 'em have it. As soon as you gain aggro, use beneath notice (on bosses/mobs you can't handle for a few seconds on your own), and sit tight for a second or 2.

[Aoeworth]

I don't get it. I've main tanked everything on my mini and main healed 3/6 and 12 man instances on my champion.

[Calta]

I prefer to duo with friends, I prefer to run instances with kinmates. I very rarely PUG, I enjoy solo gameplay.
So I suppose I am one of those people..

That being said, I think a large part of the problem has very little to do with the death penalty, or lack thereof.
Rather, I think it is because people can entirely avoid grouping until end game. Yet.. I am not a believer in forced grouping, so this is something of a conundrum for me.
I'm not precisely sure what the solution is either.

I also think that sometimes people just aren't especially good players, no matter what. I know one person who has been playing since beta.. and no matter which character they are playing... they are just not very skilled. A very nice person.. a mixed blessing to be in a group with.
Maybe this individual has too many alts and just knows how to level them to 65... thus they have a somewhat superficial understanding of each class.

I don't know..

I really am not convinced that the forgiving death penalty is a huge cause though... maybe an aspect of it, but not an integral part.

I agree play-style and the flexibility to mostly solo are many players' priorities (including mine). But grouping can be fraught early and suddenly you're level 40 -45 and a whole new play-style opens up, and becomes necessary for many classes. Small grouping the -theoretically, for me - solo-able book quests can teach the basics. Especially with a patient more experienced player who knows the instance and can explain. And help with types of mob being faced. And strategy. (No, I don't mean teach the player their class from scratch- there is a difference.) But it does require time and patience...............

So, I've wondered often why turbine doesn't offer an optional "random acts of kindness " deed/title/reward/armour at 65, to encourage players to assist x number of newbies & not very good group players, like me, in level 40- 55 group instances. Even being steam-rolled through can help someone to learn the layout and mobs. And I suspect the title would mostly attract the true teachers and information sharers........
or maybe in-game rep system? the reverse of reporting for bad deeds/acts ????
may be technically impossible- so it's just a vague thought

[CFury]

Basically, because people are playing in the ways that they find to be fun, not to win the approval of strangers. For many, that means they learn how to solo effectively - but aren't grand at groups. Some hate grinding out Virtues (or ever-better LIs), so they don't. Others don't get into the whole "maximize your spreadsheet" thing, and don't bother chasing optimal stats. They're doing what they enjoy, whether that be questing, crafting, roleplaying, assorted completionist activities, music, chatting with friends, playing the market on the AH, etc. It's their money, and their time -- and it's nobody else's business how they choose to spend it, or what they find to be fun. They don't exist in order to make your groups better.

This.

People are not *bad*, they just dont care to make a job out of the game. They dont want to invest as much time and effort in figuring out some tactics in game they play to relax as they would do for a job assignment.
And in the end, its their right to play exactly how they want.

My Mother cooks perfect dinners but she makes so much fuss and is so stressed over them that none of her guests every feel comfortable least enjoy her meals. My Aunt on the other hand will happily order pizza for everyone and have fun and relaxed evening with friends.
I am glad there are *bad* players in this game, people who are too old to have good hand-eye coordination or just dont care to be "uber leet" and only want to have some fun. I am sick and tired of "leet kids" willing to walk over anyone to get some pixel loot, the fact that every character in game is controlled by real person with feelings is beyond their comprehension.
I rather play with nice and polite than *good* player.

Besides, the content is easy enough that you can beat almost anything with not-so-perfect performance and I did all of it with lots of average players. OP sounds demanding, controlling and selfish to me.