Rise of Isengard: Minstrel Dev Diary Feedback

[Orion]

Orion,

Here's an issue that hasn't been addressed with these radical changes to the minstrel: duration of the ballads in PvMP.

You state "Instead, these buffs apply themselves to the Minstrel and will stay active on the Minstrel until they actively leave combat for a short period or they use other skills that remove them."

As I understand the beta information, this is a 5 second cooldown to drop back out of combat.

Roughly 9 seconds give or take and based on the game heartbeat.

I constantly drop in and out of combat as we chase around the Moors. This means that every fight I start with 3 ballads (minor) before I get my first cry off, assuming Im running in war speech.

That sounds like it will be a choice for you to make. Whether you want to build to max damage before using your cries and calls or not is really a choice for you to make.

Worse, I got jumped several times by wargs trying to kill off out healing. (A separate issue as we were fighting 5 defilers and 9 war leaders vs 3 minis - 45+ creeps vs 22 freeps). How do I stay alive with the ballad requirements / the bubble reduction/ and a 10 minute cool-down. So if I run in Harmony, I dont do bursty damage, but do get to heal my group and myself and still have 15 to 20 seconds before I cast anything like an effective activity.

Incorrect, but an easy misconception to make. Ballads can be replayed as often as you want and they do deal damage. You have 2 new cries. You have better survivability due to Noble Cause (trust me, there is a nice boon there for Harmony/Power of Song trait lines), if you use the armour of song trait you also have a little better survivability. The bubble defence reduction comes with an added ability to remain relevant longer because there is far less power drain.

Fighting in the keep is even worse: I have to break line of sight to get out of BA and spider targeting constantly. That either doesn't drop combat without a distance component (example, I have to run to the stairs from the door to drop out of combat at TR) or drops immediately as soon as the creep I'm targeting dies. Thats if I fight from the same floor as the attack. If I attack from the overhangs (balconies etc.) either by the cauldrons or in the flag room, I drop in and out of combat again as I have a target.

When fighting with a group/raid, getting into and out of combat is even more problematic. While I can stay in combat better as I inherit the state from the raid members, I cant depend on that. Take the above given TR fights: I could drop out of fighting immediately on diving into the flag room. Great for rezing but terrible for ballad maintenance.

Sounds like you are soloing here, maybe join a fellowship so you are in combat with your fellows? It's a thought, again though you get roughly 9 seconds out of combat.

All this being said, can we get the following information clearly from you:

1. How do minstrels work in the Moors?
2. How long does the minor ballads tail last?
3. Do we have any alternative to Cry of the Chorus when we get jumped to unlock our skills?
4. If you have a warg targeted and do a Cry of the Chorus, does all the damage of the ballads get applied to the warg? (Sorry I meant to mention this earlier... Im trying to understand the survivability in the moors and came up with this question. )

1. Same as they do in live.

2. The tail on buffs lasts roughly 9 seconds.

3. Cry of the Chorus still exists. Your skills are all available, except for Anthems and the Coda until you use three ballads. Ballads are on a 1 second cooldown and can be used over and over as they can be in live.

4. Cry of the Chorus doesn't deal damage. It buffs you and applies 3 ballad buffs, unlocking Anthems and Codas.

[Orion]

Many of us still do, you provide no explanation in that diary as to WHY you have totally redesigned the class into something barely recognisable with its' former self. This diary only describes the 'what' of the change, no mention of the 'why'.

When are you going to give that explanation. What did you think was so broken that a fundamental re-building of the class was needed? I've never seen anyone from Turbine explain this, your diary doesn't have a single sentence addressing the need for any changes, let alone something as radical as what you've done.

A lot of the feedback that has existed in the Minstrel forums for a long time has been centered around the minstrel being one dimensional. A lot of what the minstrel has done in the past has been to give them that true second play style, or expand it more to become a better stance in general. Or that the minstrel is boring when healing, ie I hit one button over and over and...

When Rask made his changes some of these were pushed to a point where they were a little more acceptable, but I wanted to take it further. I wanted to allow the class and its players to have the experience that they have now, have a better and more refined damage-dealing experience and then have a mastery stance. I also wanted to make the experience a little easier and at the same time add a new level of complexity to the class that would allow players to really take advantage of the Minstrel mechanics. (This was the intent with Champion as well.) Time and your experiences will inform me whether I have succeeded or failed.

And...really...the changes seem a lot more invasive and extreme than they really are.

[Orion]

I'm completely baffled by these changes. I'm super causal so I literally have no idea what this means to the play of my character. So let me ask some stupid questions:

There are no stupid questions.

Do I have more or less buttons on my skill bar?

You will have fewer.

Am I clicking on buttons more frequently?

It is a choice. You can click more often if you choose to do so, or you can click less often.

Do I have to watch which buffs are active more closely? Right now it's clear which 'tier' or whatever is available because the buttons are greyed out.

Available skills will not be greyed out and unavailable skills will be greyed out. It should be clear what skills are available for use and when.

I guess I'm asking is this now a more 'advanced' class, because I'm not sure how I feel about that. Not sure about the medium armor, which I do have equipped. Should minstrels even be having a shield at this point?

Minstrels are still going to be an easy class to play, they will have a more advanced top end play style. Medium armor that is worn when Isengard launches will become light armor. Shields are still important to the Minstrel.

[djheydt]

I'll try again: if I can hit as hard as I currently can, and can heal myself without penalty, I can burn through everything with ease. What's the catch?

The catch is, probably, that you're going to run out of Power, and your Power potions have a cool-down period, and you took the last one five seconds ago, and you can't do anything but hit the Orc with your lute.

(A partial mitigation is to wear any kind of jewelry and what-not that will increase your Fate, which will increase your ICPR.)

[LeRaginAsian]

The catch is that healing was reduced by 20% +. In your Warrior-skald DPS build with 3 Minor Ballads up to get your maximum DPS, and possibly even a DPS-oriented book without any of the heal modifiers, your heals will only be hitting for a little over 1k. You have Raise My Spirit, Bolster My Courage, Chord of My Salvation, and Soliloquy of My Spirit available to you, but they will only heal for base amounts, which again, was nerfed. There is also a power issue. So, while there is no longer a War-speech "penalty" you still won't be able to heal yourself as well as you would otherwise be able to with other traits in. (And btw, soloing in WoR traits for maximum self-healing would be ridiculous, as your damage would be terrible, even if you entered War-speech.)

QFT

Honestly, full self-heals in War-Speech isn't as big a deal as the removal of the tail effect. In a pinch, dropping WS and popping Cry of the Chorus, Anthem of the Third Age, Chord of Salvation, Coda of Vigour, and BC will net you around 4k in heals on the move. The sequence wouldn't be affected by a WS healing penalty as much as the tail effect.

Although I'm sure a full strength, uninterruptable BC while in WS will have more than a few creeps gnashing their teeth.

[Greenasp]

These changes are major. They'll require relearning the class. Maybe not completely, but from even from the dev diary, I'm having a hard time figuring out what's going on. It'll be easier once I have the character in front of me.

Unfortunately for me, I have a 65 minstrel, and I won't be leveling him up again and learning the skills as I go. I'll have to learn everything at once. This makes him an undesirable for me. I really don't want to learn the class all over. I want to explore the world and see new sites.

All this means for me is that I won't be leveling him. I'll stick with my tried and true characters. I don't wanna figure stuff out as it's beating down on me. I just want to go out there and play the character I already know. With the healing hits on the RK, it means for me, I won't be playing any healers now. Which were my favorite classes.

So at this time, I'd like to ask for another healer class to be introduced to the game. If I have to relearn a class, it might as well be from level 1. Although, with the changes in the LM class, why not make a few more and make them the next healer? You guys just put in a new/better tank. Make a new/better healer. More tank options weren't really needed, but healers are still sparse.

RKs don't like retraiting all the time (seriously, dual spec us so we can get away with spending a fortune on respeccing to help people), and always seem to run dps traits. I had one trying to heal us as lightning spec the other day and we were wondering why we were dying. LMs are a great choice as a new healer class. Few groups like taking them, unless the understand the class. However, give them real healing abilities, and bam! We're in.

Ok, probably not the place for a LM rant, but the other stuff applies. Thanks for something that wasn't wanted or needed.

[Gillianrial]

The minstrel raid set has no finesse on it - and every other class does. Is this intentional or a bug? (I have not seen an answer on this, but it's entirely possible I missed it).

Thanks

[Crissaegrim]

Once again, this needs to be highlighted:

Minstrels are still going to be an easy class to play, they will have a more advanced top end play style.

Playing a Minstrel will be as EASY or as COMPLICATED as you CHOOSE it to be

If your playstyle wants to be Major - Major - Major - Bolster 'til the cows come home -- that has NOT changed.

If your playstyle is to tinker with min/maxing, utilizing the subjective-best of traits and trait bonuses to keep the maximum amount of buffs active concurrently while still main healing, allowing for quick alterations to your power consumption, Healing output and every other little thing all the time -- You can now do that!

This isn't affecting anyone's existing play-style; it's allowing for a plethora of play-styles to exist, functionally, within the same class we all love.

I find that exciting.

[Crissaegrim]

The minstrel raid set has no finesse on it - and every other class does. Is this intentional or a bug? (I have not seen an answer on this, but it's entirely possible I missed it).

Thanks

Other sources of Finesse can be found -- my Mini on Bullroarer has ~3600 Finesse, nearly as much as my Guardian.

[Hoppa_Joel]

I looked at some screenshots, that people put up explaining the new use of Minstrels.

What it looked like to me, is that You have a lot of "extra" visuals we did not have before.
I am not a fan of "extra visuals" specially on a minstrel.
Minstrels are musicians not magicians.

Could we please get an option, to disable special effect visuals so that when our characters do certain things like these stances, and so on, that we don't have to see glowy hand type musical notation hovering to the right and left of them?


this and... these are what i am talking about

[Jokeurthewise]

Hi!

Just dropping in to say I have a level 36 minstrel on live, that I transfered to Bullroarer out of curiosity. I enjoyed playing him in the Beta a lot (mostly soloing and skirmishing). In my opinion, the changes to the minstrel are great, as they make the class feel more dynamic.

I only wish the cooldown on the anthems would be shorter.

And as for losing your ballad buffs when you go out of combat, it should not happen. (As you have a big and Booyah! finisher move called a Coda, that will erase them before that happens.)

That is all.

[Arness]

Does Cry of the Chorus still cure the minstrel of silence?

[Crissaegrim]

Does Cry of the Chorus still cure the minstrel of silence?

Yes, does.

[LeRaginAsian]

These changes are major. They'll require relearning the class. Maybe not completely, but from even from the dev diary, I'm having a hard time figuring out what's going on. It'll be easier once I have the character in front of me.

Unfortunately for me, I have a 65 minstrel, and I won't be leveling him up again and learning the skills as I go. I'll have to learn everything at once. This makes him an undesirable for me. I really don't want to learn the class all over. I want to explore the world and see new sites.

I encourage you to at least log onto your minstrel and give it the old college try. I think you'll find maximizing your outgoing healing/dps/power savings is easier than ever and long-forgotten skills are suddenly very useful. Maybe they'll even find a way into your regular skill rotation.

Once again, this needs to be highlighted:

Playing a Minstrel will be as EASY or as COMPLICATED as you CHOOSE it to be

If your playstyle wants to be Major - Major - Major - Bolster 'til the cows come home -- that has NOT changed.

If your playstyle is to tinker with min/maxing, utilizing the subjective-best of traits and trait bonuses to keep the maximum amount of buffs active concurrently while still main healing, allowing for quick alterations to your power consumption, Healing output and every other little thing all the time -- You can now do that!

This isn't affecting anyone's existing play-style; it's allowing for a plethora of play-styles to exist, functionally, within the same class we all love.

I find that exciting.

+rep

My thoughts exactly. I've always preferred healing on my captain because of the layers you have to actively build up to be most effective. I'm finding the new minstrel to be similar in the layering of buffs to maximize the fellowship's effectiveness. Mini healing used to be "Okay if I have to" for me, now I can't wait to see what kind of uber-rotation I'll be able to sustain.

Does Cry of the Chorus still cure the minstrel of silence?

Yes. It also has a reduced cooldown of 5 min which the minor book legacy can lower to 3 min. It's my new favorite toy for a burst of damage/healing.

[Gillianrial]

Other sources of Finesse can be found -- my Mini on Bullroarer has ~3600 Finesse, nearly as much as my Guardian.

That wasn't my question. I would like to know if it's intended it isn't on the minstrel raid set. And if so, why?

[Teldra]

That wasn't my question. I would like to know if it's intended it isn't on the minstrel raid set. And if so, why?

That was what I was getting at on my post earlier Jaiyne. I got the raid and the pvp sets backwards in the screenshots. Based on new info to me, the pvp set has 4 pieces with +996 finesse. I suspect that they just havent itemized properly.

Teldra

[Orion]

That wasn't my question. I would like to know if it's intended it isn't on the minstrel raid set. And if so, why?

It is intended. The raid set is more of a healing set and there is no need for finesse on a healing set. We are talking about trying to build multiple sets for the future. It also may change, to allow for it to have more value cross all disciplines. I am not certain how it will shake out for Isengard launch.

[MechFierce]

Hello Orion,

Just checked through this thread and I didn't see this question asked:


Being primarily a PvMPer, is the minstrel full fellowship ooc rez on 0s cd still going to be full fellowship rez in the ettenmoors?

Seems more than a bit unbalanced.

Thanks for reading.

[Tekkud]

This remains true, but the reliance on musical terminology has been expanded somewhat. I am calling this out because it has a measure of relevance as you read more.

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.

Nevertheless, the changes look interesting. No, they actually look amazing. I may be rolling a minnie now if I get bored with my champ. My first toon ever was a minnie, and I played it so badly that the class has always felt kinda tainted by my (then) inadaquacy. Looking forward to this now, a lot.

[Gillianrial]

It is intended. The raid set is more of a healing set and there is no need for finesse on a healing set. We are talking about trying to build multiple sets for the future. It also may change, to allow for it to have more value cross all disciplines. I am not certain how it will shake out for Isengard launch.

Thanks for the answer, even though I am disappointed it's intended. We are the only class that has that stipulation, and we should be allowed to do other things in our gear other than just heal. I wear my primary OD set in the Moors now, because it has the the best stats and I don't have the full alternate set. I would want to do the same in RoI because the raid stats > the PvP stats, but clearly, I can't because of the Finesse issue.

I really don't want to have to grind both sets because of Finesse. I would like to wear the gear that gives me the best stats - whatever that is.

Hope it's reconsidered and altered. Consider this my vote if I get one

~ Jaiyne

[Namesse]

It is intended. The raid set is more of a healing set and there is no need for finesse on a healing set. We are talking about trying to build multiple sets for the future. It also may change, to allow for it to have more value cross all disciplines. I am not certain how it will shake out for Isengard launch.

I typically wear my raid set for everything and will not be grinding another set; please put finesse on the set, if it isn't relevant for healing it's just a stat like might, but if we do any solo questing or moors dps or anything else, it is useful, in fact, it's a must have.

Honestly, if your goal with this revamp is to thin the ranks of active minstrels, you're probably going to achieve that goal.

[Megus]

It is intended. The raid set is more of a healing set and there is no need for finesse on a healing set. We are talking about trying to build multiple sets for the future. It also may change, to allow for it to have more value cross all disciplines. I am not certain how it will shake out for Isengard launch.

From looking at the set bonuses I don't see how the raid gear is a healing set. The bonuses seem to cross every trait line and don't focus on one in particular. For that reason, I would say since it isn't a true healing set that we would need Finesse.


Orion, I thought you said we would be getting 4x our base power for absorption from Story of the Hammerhand. Why did you change this? This skill seems useless now being that it will just be a guaranteed waste of 5% power being that it's unrealistic to go for 30 seconds without taking 1960 damage. Do you have plans to change this or is it written in already for the update? From everything I've read so far, it looks like you've turned the minstrel class into a high power consumption class with minimal help in terms of power return or regen, so if that's the idea you had, then I guess you are sticking to your guns with this skill.

[CrusaderOfMetal]

I wished we guards had an Orion there...

And I didn't come here just to say that! As I didn't feel like playing my guard on the beta, I only played my mini and although I don't want to say things you guys probably now better than me, I can assure you of something: the playstyle for me didn't change that much. Sure there are changes but in essence it is almost the same thing. So if you fear you'll have to relearn to play, you'll only have to adapt.

Note: I only did soloing and healing a bit for fun, no instances or anything (I don't raid). So I am not saying efficiency didn't change, but that the gameplay in itself was almost the same, only more fun!

[Orion]

From looking at the set bonuses I don't see how the raid gear is a healing set. The bonuses seem to cross every trait line and don't focus on one in particular. For that reason, I would say since it isn't a true healing set that we would need Finesse.


Orion, I thought you said we would be getting 4x our base power for absorption from Story of the Hammerhand. Why did you change this? This skill seems useless now being that it will just be a guaranteed waste of 5% power being that it's unrealistic to go for 30 seconds without taking 1960 damage. Do you have plans to change this or is it written in already for the update? From everything I've read so far, it looks like you've turned the minstrel class into a high power consumption class with minimal help in terms of power return or regen, so if that's the idea you had, then I guess you are sticking to your guns with this skill.

The bonuses cross trait lines, but the overall stats of the armor are for healing. As I said, it is something that we are looking into handling in the future.

On to your second thoughts, in testing the larger the bonus the more we were going to need to extend the cooldown timer on the skill. I really wanted this to be a more active skill, one that became part of the survivability of the Minstrel outside of the Ettenmoors and was a boon inside of the Ettenmoors. Making it 4x (base morale) proved problematic in the non-Ettenmoors world because it was equivalent to several Bolster Courage heals. The skill costs 5% of your power, gives you 1960 points of morale damage absorption and if it survives you recover the power consumed. You are also immune to setbacks while casting.

I am fairly certain that the shield is going to be the boon that it is meant to be due to the low cooldown timer and relative bonus that it provides, is it the ~8k+ power shield of the past? No. This means yo keep your power, you keep your ability to stay fighting and upright in the moors. In group PvE, you can survive that 2k hit with your name on it from the boss that just decided to target you. In solo PvE, it becomes a mainstay skill that you pop to allow you to potentially take on one more mob that you normally would have been able to handle.

Power consumption is an ongoing adjustment, as I said in my blog the addition of instruments will really help the issue. Instruments have always been a way that minstrels could help to mitigate the power costs but the changes that I made obsoleted all existing instruments. Once the instruments are played with I feel that the power issues will be far less concerning.

As far as your last statement...I learned a long, long time ago as a dev that you are never going to please all players. No, it is not my intent to reduce the number of active minstrels. Will that happen? I cannot say. Do I hope that it does not happen? Of course, I want the game that we develop to be fun. I want all classes to be the "best class ever"! People will choose to play it or not. They will then determine if the changes, both simple and complex, are for them and play the character or shelve it...it was certainly never my intent to attempt to reduce the number of people playing the class... Actually, in an ideal world, people like the changes so much they tell friends, who tell friends and so on...

[Lowj]

Hi Orion, thanks for your presence (and patience) here and your lengthy explanations!

Let's get this one out of the way: I also second the motions for finesse on the raid set and for multi-output instrument recipes!

I have to say that I'm very excited about the new Minstrel! It all seems so much more fun, I expect that the days of standing in any random boss fight, whether raid or FS instance, and spamming BC on one or a couple targets are finally over! I can't thank you enough

I think one issue with power use might be that RoI is an expansion and as such, people who are currently playing it in Beta haven't had loads of time to fine-tune and improve their characters yet. Same thing was true for MoM, and to a lesser extent for SoM. So yeah, at first the power consumption will be crazy, but I'd be very surprised if it gets easier and easier as you spend more time at end-game, perfecting your gear, legacies, relics, traits, etc. And ofc the instruments, when they get fixed

I do have one question though, and this is one that puzzles me. I've heard several Beta Minstrels reporting that Raise the Spirit has a HIGHER power cost than Bolster Courage! I'm completely baffled by this, to be quite honest. I understand that it can't be cheap, due to the short cd and all, but surely it should be significantly lower than BC. I did ask them if they had any traits or legacies that reduced BC cost specifically and they said they didn't. Could you say something about that please?