I grow weary from all the negativity.

[Deusdictum]

I would love to give you guys some Helm's Deep info, but unfortunately I cannot. ... I will simply say that it will come later than you want it to.

But I want it to come before pre-orders are closed...

OMG. Sapience just said we won't get any Helm's Deep info until after pre-orders are closed!

[dreamcreatorx]

I would love to give you guys some Helm's Deep info, but unfortunately I cannot. Not that I don't have any (I do know some juicy things!)

Tease....

[zagreb000]

I'm sorry, but I really cannot make heads nor tails of what you tried to say there...are you trying to say that I called you a violent drunk?

What I said was that people just badmouthing a product can be as equally damaging as a person creating a negative scene in a public place. Not once did I equate unsatisfied LOTRO players with violent drunks, nor did I see any other person equate that outside of yourself, what did take place was that myself and the one who originally posted the analogy attempted to state that there are cases where customers are lost without a detriment to the company and how those customers can be a source of damage on the products.

A violent, aggressive, potentially dangerous drunk is to a bar, what an unsatisfied player is to Lotro. I find that quite stupid....
You cant make heads or tails because you have no idea what the analogy was an answer to.

And apparently i need to quote myself. "Till then, deal with the negative rep and bad word of mouth that spills to youtube, other forums, and Turbines other projects........"
That proves, that im fully aware of the damage an unsatisfied customer can do. But you see, an unsatisfied player does follow rules set by Turbine while a violent drunk does not follow the rules of the bar. Thats why the analogy is rubish. The poster of the analogy said he wants to get rid of the people that spread negativity since they are same as violent drunks. I have just shown you why they are not. We did not have a discussion about the damage a customer can do, but instead about him wanting to get rid of them for breaking absolutely no rules. For only spreading what he calls "negativity".

In the future first read the analogy then read what it refers to. You will avoid looking silly.....

[TheCrossbow]

As a former-player (who still keeps an eye on the forum) with a lifetime subscription and a deep love for Tolkein and MMORPGs, I would like you to hear my perspective on this and why I vented my fury on the forums, before leaving the game (despite my lifetime sub).


I hear, from many reliable sources, that logins are at an alltime low. Confidence is low. Many of us know that the license for LOTRO has not be renewed and that we can expect cheap and cheerful content in the immediate future. Free stuff is a bribe to get you to log on. Personally, I don't play games to be rewarded for doing nothing.


My advice would be not to sink another penny into this game until Turbine clarify what is going on with the license. I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are advocating, and I hope you continue to enjoy the game, despite the views of others.

As much as people are free to their opinions, there are a few things in your post, MullaramSullaram that I had to challenge a bit - just like I challenged someone else who said it.

It is nice that you make claims like "logins are at an all time low" and that "confidence is low." And, I will ask you to provide your evidence of this. How do you know that this decrease is all due to the "quality" of LOTRO? Couldn't some of the recent decline be due to other legitimate reasons? Like... the circumstances of people's lives changing such that they can't or just don't play LOTRO anymore?

Either way, please provide the evidence you have to support those claims. Otherwise, with all due respect, you are (to be blunt) putting forth dishonest statements...

Secondly, the "situation with the license" you bring up is something we should all be a bit cautious with, given that there have been several trollish threads (and a blog) that were nothing but a hoax.

But, mostly, your post was good, until you strayed into making claims and statements about things that you have provided no evidence to support...

[Rainothon]

Hi Sapience,

While I agree wholeheartedly with you on the rational level, I'd like to put some emphasis on the emotional level as well.

People put their heart into this game. They'd sell their soul to it if such an offer were available. Or at the least they have a great, deep passion for this game. Some may write most of that off to Tolkien's genius. I say much of that passion is also Turbine's merit. Tolkien may have breathed live into LOTR, Turbine did so into LOTRO.

But passion has a dark side. Disappointment upon disappiontment can turn it sour and bitter - I've seen it happen, 'over there'. Expectations (justified or not) that are not met are a lover's proverbial slap in the face. In a way playing MMORPG's has more similarities to having a relationship than one would think at first glance. Including the grass Always being greener next door (to which I say: just tend your own lawn better!)

You see Sapience, I think negativity is more than mere 'criticism not voiced the proper way', it's disappointment, unmet expectations and ultimately something that could be turned back into the passion for this game it stems from.

Cheers, Rain

edit: As this may come across totally wrong. I'm not saying players are right or wrong when they're disappionted or consider expectations unmet. I'm merely focussing on their emotions, not on whether they are 'justified' or not. They are real enough for the players concerned. Then again, Turbine staff have feelings too.

[Tribulation]

Sadly, though, none of these negative jokers will ever be satisfied with whatever you decide to do.

And this is constructive how????

[Chunky_baby]

Didn't see it as a rant, so I have no idea why you are apologising. Looks to me like a well-considered post, it's not pro-Turbine, it's not positive about the direction the game is taking, but it's still a good post.

I don't think "Fanbois" like me think "nothing is wrong", it's just a simple matter of perspective. Just as you obviously feel strongly about the specifics you have mentioned, others may be nonplussed, or positive. I don't understand, however, why there appears to be a convention that negative feedback is always important, and has a "right" to be heard, whereas positive feedback is just "fanboi-ism" and can be ignored. Are we expected to lie, to suddenly say we hate feature (a), change (b), quest (c) because someone else does? Surely if feedback is important then all perspectives should be welcomed, otherwise said feedback is IMHO useless as it is not representative.

As to players being "forced to air their views in other places", I don't see why anyone is forced. Unless the "considered feedback" is simply a string of swearing, abuse, and insults. If so, yes it will probably get removed from these forums, as it breaks the rules. It's not necessary to flame anyone to make your points, as you proved yourself.

I bolded two statements and will explain rationally my point of view.

1) If you are a company that values its customers, and truly wants to make them happy - then all feedback should be evaluated and not discarded. Also, if I am a paying customer, I feel I have a right to air a grievance in a respectable manner in order to right something I am paying for. The company has no rule or expectation to answer me or to correct that wrong, but, as a paying customer - I can take my money elsewhere. As an aside - you have the right to air yours too.

If you are a "fanboi" (and I'm not accusing you of such), that's fine. I would just urge Turbine to make sure that they see the wood from the trees and try to filter out any "yes men" for the exclusion of what they might see as just negative nancies with no point. It's easy to see yourself as great when you filter out the bad and leave only the good.... just saying. Again - this is not aimed at you at all - just generalities.

2) There are people, who believe that they have been excluded from the forum, or put through hoops in order to post - based on no firm breaking of the TOS or rules. Now, yes, they could just be lying. Yes, they could be horrible people that are sending PM's or posts littered with expletives or hate or whatever.

I personally choose to believe that there are often shades of grey in this kind of thing, and that most likely there are those people. But, I have heard evidence from, and seen exchanges from people that don't add up to me. Hence why I say forced - I believe there are a number of folks that have to go elsewhere to air their views and that's kind of sad to me.

[Chunky_baby]

To extend the analogy a bit...

Many people observed that the running pools were making money, so a lot of people opened their own pools. That resulted in lots of pools, many of which were going to have to close if they couldn't find more people who liked to swim (there just weren't enough swimmers to support all the pools that opened). Therefore, the various pool owners looked for ways to make pools more attractive to less skilled or otherwise new swimmers. Pools became shorter, so laps weren't as tiring, or shallower so that weak swimmers could stop and just stand up. As a result, the original dedicated, strong swimmers started complaining about the short laps and shallow pools.

I guess I'm just sad that the owners didn't see a way to have those shallow pools and shorter ones and keep the original and do maintenance. If I use my home town as an example, they always had what they honestly called a baby pool (not trying to insult anyone - it's genuinely what it was called) and also the laps area in the larger one.

What this is trying to do, is remove or leave the larger to go stagnant while building the smaller pool. I just don't see that as good sense. Eventually, the smaller pool folks will grow up and want to swim in the larger one.

But if it's stagnant or broken, people will leave. Sure, you'll just replace them with more beginners, but is that good sense?

I would rather they maintained their more skilled (your words) clients and kept them happy, while also catering for those less skilled. I have no issue with a smaller pool being built... at all. I also like a dip in it from time to time. I just want my big pool too

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

[Prior question wrt. to FA symbols dropping in Erebor T1 raids]

Because the simple truth is... it was a bug. Fact. Simple. No grand explanations needed. Really as simple as that.

Simple truth. It was a bug. We fixed it. Done. The rest is just noise.

See, that is a prime example of just WHY you get negative feedback in here.
You are even convinced of this being a proper answer.

Let me tell you in the politest possible way, it is not.
Could you, technically, claim it might be counted as a sort of answer to the literal question about "Why did they drop?"? Why, yes, you could. And you would miss the point (again).

But the fact is, there ARE explanations needed, because the actual question behind it is more like:
"How can the very same mistake (refer to Durchest literally weeks before) be repeated in such a short span of time? Especially in light of the beta testers telling you up front about it? And in light of the confusion and grief you caused with the change the first time around?"

If you insist that such a question and comments to the effect that you positively need to up your game with respect to the QA you do and with respect to listening to the feedback provided in the beta forum are to be counted as negativity and/or OK to be ignored, then it isn't the posters "poor attitudes [that] net poor results" (to quote yourself).

SNy

[zagreb000]

You are just being a petulant child who is attempting to use blackmail and extortion as leverage to get Turbine to do what you want.

Name calling, personal attacks and conjecture.

In either case (a violent drunk or a rude customer), both of them have the potential to inflict harm on the business by creating an atmosphere that drives other customers away.

Ill repeat again. 1. poster says: shed customers that share opinions that he sees as negative... 2. then i say: no, not a good idea, they are not breaking any rules by it, a business should not purposefully get rid of customers that are just voicing their opinion... 3. analogy: unsatisfied customers do damage, they are to lotro what a drunk is to a bar. The position from 1. is unchanged, get rid of them.... 4. then i repeat: they are not breaking any rules. You should not get rid of players that break no rules.

Its a horrible idea to get rid of players just because you might not like their opinion. You want to argue with me but you do not address what i said in any way.

You argue for a point that is not contested in any way. I even quote my self saying the exact same thing. Damage can occur.

There is just a threshold past which those who run the business must make the [unfortunate] decision to jettison a customer who behaves unnecessarily unruly in order to protect other costumers from the one who is being unruly.

Im positive that you have no idea what unruly means. Try to read the community guidelines.

In your case, (and to be honest) the person using the analogy of a violent drunk was [probably] being nice. At least the drunk man has the excuse of being under the influence of alcohol...

Insulting me might help your ego, but insults have no place in a civilized discussion.

I suggest Turbine lets you start an online inquisition which would allow you perma-ban every poster you think is spreading negativity. Because "negativity" is highly subjective. It is what that analogy was actually proposing..

To add one more thing. Its people like you that make the forums a worse place. You fight for a point that is not contested in any way showing that you have absolutely no idea what is being discussed. You pick a fight and start insulting for no reason. You are aggressive for only the purpose of launching personal attacks.... You are simply a horrible person. Im sorry, im trying to be honest. People can change, and i will be an optimist and say you can too. Good luck.....

[Datheor]

This thread has convinced me of one thing. I am leaving. Not the game. I have decided I want to be here until they shut down the last server. I am leaving the forums. It has become, in the words of Spiro Agnew, a den of "nattering nabobs of negativism". Not the whole forum. There are some shining lights (Looking at you Nymphonic) but by and large it endless complaining.

In the words of my grandfather "If you gave these folks a gold brick, they would b*tch about the weight" So, back I go to my beloved Middle Earth. I will still come here for helpful threads and official announcements, but that is it. I leave it to the rest of you to carry on. Enjoy. I for one have many quests to do in Lothlorien!

Faelor/Falwulf of Vilya

[Sapience]

Ok, the bickering and name calling end immediately or the thread does. Your choice.

[Beaniemooch]

.....if it's stagnant or broken, people will leave. Sure, you'll just replace them with more beginners, but is that good sense?

I would rather they maintained their more skilled (your words) clients and kept them happy, while also catering for those less skilled....

This. ^^ If you replace more experienced long-time players of lotro with more people who are just starting, don't care to play end game instances/raids, and don't worry so much about progression there will still be a game. It just won't be a game I'm interested in. This is my biggest fear, and I see it unfolding before me.

I've played this game exclusively for almost 5 years. Now I'm checking out other games like Rift, Neverwinter, signing up for ESO beta and waiting to see if I get in, and whatever other games are out there because most times when I log on there is nobody in kin around. Most of the people I know outside of kin are offline or perhaps online in the moors because there's nothing else of interest going on. There may be huge amounts of content, but none of it has substance.

I understand Turbine has to stay in business. God knows I've done my part supporting them financially and I don't regret it. But I hold onto my money now because what they're selling isn't what I want to buy. I have 3 lifetime accounts, and up until RoR I pre-ordered every expansion with $$ on every account. I shop in the store when there's things I need for my raiding toons (notice I don't say my casual crafters or non-raiding alts of which I have plenty). This is my main area of entertainment and for that I'm willing to pay. I'd be happy to go from lifetime to paying monthly again like I did in the very first months if I could get the same kind of content. The release of DN, BG, OD, ToO.... instances that you had to work through and cooperate in. Bigger landscape doesn't mean there's anything of interest there.

Wildermore gave us more book quests - which ended abruptly with a very non-epic reward of 3 flowers. In the past we've gotten 2nd age class items, or something I'd consider more appropriate and epic in nature. It was a big letdown.

Wildermore the zone gave us quests that don't increase our level from 85, don't in fact give us anything in the way of usable items unless you progress through the questline to become kindred with one - then start the 5 dailies (really?) to have to work for kindred in the other. The crafting recipes are single shots, which for items like food and scholar stuff is an insult. If you didn't raid regularly in the past you could now obtain items that were raid-equivalent through solo play. I know a lot of folks that didn't bother to finish the questline in Wildermore because there was no reason to, they were already all dressed up and nowhere to go. Why get more 85 items when there is no real 85 raid to run and by the time you get more content you're 95 and the items have lost meaning? Had more instances or a new raid come out they may have been more meaningful.

There are lots of quests in Wildermore. There's just no real reason to do them. Therefore to me - no meaningful content was released. Love the graphics, but I don't log on to sight-see.

[Sandgorgan]

Ok, the bickering and name calling end immediately or the thread does. Your choice.

Can you just delete their posts? It's literally a few bad apples ruining the barrel. There's some interesting points of view from both the positive and negative, except for the 2/3 people arguing, it's been civil. Since you're all over the dev tracker with this thread it will receive more traffic than others, and the positions on both sides are quite well expressed.

[Laweh]

I agree with the other poster that it seems like most game forums are full of doom and gloom negativity or 'such and such class is OP in PVP, nerf it!' or game mechanic hate. Not just LoTR. I can't really remember a time when the forums were not negative mostly, sometimes during festivals it abates a bit, or after a recent expansion but its human nature to want to vent when unhappy, and not bother posting when happy since you are playing the game and occupied. lol

take it with a grain of salt, folks have a right to vent, tho the personal attacks should stop.

[Harbut]

calm down Zagreb
You said you were a 4 year uni student in economics who hasn't heard of customer stripping, I merely gave you an example
I was NOT calling anyone a violent drunk or even remotely comparing lotro players to drunks violent or otherwise.
I was merely giving you an example that business do shred customers for the sake of their business and the benefit of other customers.

Zagreb000:
Shed a customer? Im a economics major and in my 4 years at the university i have never learned anything about "costumer sheding".
What business does that? Purposefully loses customers? That must be one of the more ridiculous things i have heard.
And how do you even shed a customer? Do you tell him to leave?


You asked which business does that and i gave you an answer, nothing more.
Chilllaxxxxxx

[TheCrossbow]

Name calling, personal attacks and conjecture.




Ill repeat again. 1. poster says: shed customers that share opinions that he sees as negative... 2. then i say: no, not a good idea, they are not breaking any rules by it, a business should not purposefully get rid of customers that are just voicing their opinion... 3. analogy: unsatisfied customers do damage, they are to lotro what a drunk is to a bar. The position from 1. is unchanged, get rid of them.... 4. then i repeat: they are not breaking any rules. You should not get rid of players that break no rules.

Its a horrible idea to get rid of players just because you might not like their opinion. You want to argue with me but you do not address what i said in any way.

You argue for a point that is not contested in any way. I even quote my self saying the exact same thing. Damage can occur.



Im positive that you have no idea what unruly means. Try to read the community guidelines.





Insulting me might help your ego, but insults have no place in a civilized discussion.

I suggest Turbine lets you start an online inquisition which would allow you perma-ban every poster you think is spreading negativity. Because "negativity" is highly subjective. It is what that analogy was actually proposing..

To add one more thing. Its people like you that make the forums a worse place. You fight for a point that is not contested in any way showing that you have absolutely no idea what is being discussed. You pick a fight and start insulting for no reason. You are aggressive for only the purpose of launching personal attacks.... You are simply a horrible person. Im sorry, im trying to be honest. People can change, and i will be an optimist and say you can too. Good luck.....

So you saying...

"Till then, deal with the negative rep and bad word of mouth that spills to youtube, other forums, and Turbines other projects........"

Isn't bordering on blackmail and/or extortion?

You are basically telling Turbine "Give me what I want or else I will do X."

That is definitely the best way to get someone to listen to you...

[Herwegur]

This thread has convinced me of one thing. I am leaving. Not the game. I have decided I want to be here until they shut down the last server. I am leaving the forums. It has become, in the words of Spiro Agnew, a den of "nattering nabobs of negativism". Not the whole forum. There are some shining lights (Looking at you Nymphonic) but by and large it endless complaining.

In the words of my grandfather "If you gave these folks a gold brick, they would b*tch about the weight" So, back I go to my beloved Middle Earth. I will still come here for helpful threads and official announcements, but that is it. I leave it to the rest of you to carry on. Enjoy. I for one have many quests to do in Lothlorien!

Faelor/Falwulf of Vilya

+1 rep to you sir. This is why I have not been posting much on the forums, and why I am very unlikely to stick around the forums posting anything more. I'm too busy actually playing and enjoying the game, and have no time to follow all these armchair debates...

[Chunky_baby]

So you saying...

"Till then, deal with the negative rep and bad word of mouth that spills to youtube, other forums, and Turbines other projects........"

Isn't bordering on blackmail and/or extortion?

You are basically telling Turbine "Give me what I want or else I will do X."

That is definitely the best way to get someone to listen to you...

From your quote above, no he wasn't saying that. He was saying that in general - meaning others might or would, not that he would definitely go out and do it.

Even if he was - it's his right to go and tell people what he thinks anyway. An old adage in customer service is that if you do something good, they'll tell one person. If you do one thing wrong, they'll tell 10 people.

If Turbine wanted to damage limit the bad press, they would engage more, change things and listen to their customers. I get that some things might be limited due to staff, money or technology.

I'd rather hear "we can't do that" than nothing at all. I think maybe they are realizing that; what with the recent announcement that basically PvMP is not being developed further.

Of course, one down side of that is that you are killing people's hopes. As someone mentioned earlier, this game stirs a lot of passion - both positive and negative.

Personally I'd rather hear:

1) We won't develop PvMP any further except minor balancing (Freep vs. Creep).
2) We know a small % enjoyed raiding, but we have no money/resources to develop anything on the scale of the Rift anymore. Expect maybe 1 lair raid a year, or 1 revamp of an old raid.
3) 3 and 6 mans will be severly underdeveloped but will be one set, once per year.
4) All content is easy, and expect dailies like Hytbold after every xpack - possibly with up to 2-3 rep grinds afterwards for decent gear.
5) Gear will be upgradable by everyone, through all playstyles - no elite or raid only sets.
6) Gold gear will continue to drop randomly, through auto-loot at a rate of about 0.01% per piece to keep you playing.
7. Hobbit presents will drop random things up to and including FA's for those that participate.
8. Eventually all things will be available in the store, up to and including gear or FA's.

At least then I'd know what I was in for, and could plan accordingly. For some of you, this would be heaven - and I'm sure you'd continue to play. For some, this would just confirm what we have been expecting through development and game trends anyway.

I know you might argue that the latter points are hyberbole and won't ever happen. Well, I have to say - if you'd asked me 5 years ago, or 2 years ago - I might have said some of the earlier ones were hyberbole too. Bite me once, shame on you. Bite me twice, shame on me.

[Lothirieth]

It's very rare that I see that type of response to actual conscrutive criticism. I see it a lot in response to rehtoric, negativity, and frankly rambling complaints, but rarely in response to actual constructive criticism.

I respectfully and completely disagree with you. I've seen it happen far too many times. The Hobbit Presents is a good thread to find examples. I think it's fact that the majority of criticism on this board is constructive. Yes, the bad apples exist, I don't deny it. But so often criticism, no matter how politely worded, will eventually be met with labels such as 'whining', 'hating', 'complaining', or "If you don't like it, leave." This phenomenon is certainly not restricted to this forum either.

We have two ways for people to find exactly what you're looking for.
The Dev Tracker, which shows the post of every dev. http://forums.lotro.com/turbine_trac...p?tracker=devT

I wonder if all people even know about the dev tracker. There's no 'Welcome to the Lotro forums' thread that helps people navigate. And even if they did know about it, there's a lot of stuff to wade through. I've read the different Twitter conversation threads and even I can't remember which contains what.

The Official discussions forum where we put official topics on every last discussion. There isn't a single quote I've posted here that I didn't pull from there.
http://forums.lotro.com/forumdisplay...al-Discussions

Those also contain hefty, lengthy threads.

What I see as the REAL issue, is laziness. People don't bother to look.

I don't remember refuting this? I conceded that one will never totally be rid of questions being repeated.

When I can make a post in the launcher in three languages, Facebook in three languages, the forums in three languages, and tweet the information with links to all of the former and people STILL ask if the game is down, one more post somewhere isn't going to matter. There is literally a post in front of their faces and they refuse to read it (launcher). But you'll see a dozen posts in general 5 minutes after the servers go down.

Yet I wonder how many more you prevented by posting what you do? Look, it wouldn't hurt to make some sort of introductory post with some FAQ's as well, directing people towards the right places for answers. And I bet you'd find the posters here utilising it and pointing people towards it which could help you and your team.

Anyway, it's some food for thought for when you roll out the forum revamp.

Regarding shutting down this entire thread due to a few bad posts... some have already been deleted from this thread. How about continuing to do that rather throwing out the whole thing?

[veevito]

I agree with the OP to a great extent. People who expect to play a game for free are daft. As if game companies don't need profit.

I've always hated the "free to play" moniker but I understand why it's used, however it's asking for trouble. It lends itself to the abuse that, frankly, it deserves. F2p/sub models are even worse, or have the potential to be. You get a stipend, but it may take 3 months of stipend accrual to get something that is only available on the store in some cases with games. So you either save your already spent sub money or spend more.

I miss the days where games were content with a few hundred thousand subs and spent all of their time developing for those who chose to pay. Rather than splitting the focus.

It seems as if publishers want wow numbers for a sub base. If they don't get it, then even though that would be profitable with a few hundred thousand, it just isn't enough so they go f2p or f2p/sub. bleh.

And I think it is a completely valid observation that content pre f2p is greater than post f2p.

Anyone who has played a bit of time in these games and especially lotro can attest to that. I think anyway.

This mmo was the longest that I have ever subbed to. I'm at premium because well, just didn't seem worth it anymore.

[mr_toad]

....For whatever it may be worth, some of us are trickling back in, a few here and there, from where we went. Step back from your issues and look at them compared to other games. Things are not so bad here: indeed they are quite good. ....

As a major fan of pc-gaming, I agree with you completely. LOTRO warts and all still stands with other AAA titles across genres in my opinion. If your opinion differs, of course feel share to share that and/or play those other titles. I'm guessing many will come back after doing so or else LOTRO would have gone out of business a long time

….. In my opinion we (collective we, Sapience, Turbine, us as the community) spend way too much time wondering if people are airing their views correctly - and less time on the real issue itself - the fact that people (a LOT of ppl) are unhappy and how to fix it.

…..

The only reason I’ve bothered to try to post on this topic is to share that, at least for myself, I don’t like being in discussion where people resort to extreme negativity. The message gets lost in all the shenanigans. It’s counterproductive to share your views while rudely insulting others.

….

The game has changed, and in my opinion - for the worse. It's too simple, it's too buggy, it's too solo, it's too cash driven and that's just scratching the surface. How do you fix that? I think at this point, it's time to realize that it is what it is, and is unlikely to change.

The engine is old, and cranky and frankly I think they've done a good job of using it to the extreme but anymore will cause it to collapse.

Here I’ll just have to respectfully agree to disagree with you. In the past 4 months, I’ve played the game for hundreds of hours on my lvl 85 hunter and not experienced one bug that I can remember except for the getting 1^st agers in T1 raids. I’ve grouped in raids for over half that time, both in PvE and PvMP. I’ve gotten deeper into playing my hunter and have been absolutely obsessed with maximizing my dps… and it’s hardly been “simple” to do so. Don’t get me wrong Chunky_baby (awesome forum name by the way), I believe that you are experiencing your frustrations and all of your complaints are stated well and you’re respectful about it. You have a valid perspective. When I point out I disagree with you, I’m simply suggesting that perhaps not everyone feels like that way but who knows? I can only speak for myself.

Maybe the real problem is no game can hold most people’s attention for hundreds or thousands of hours?

And I’d also have to respectfully disagree about the engine. In my very humble opinion based on being a hardcore pc gamer since 1989, the LOTRO graphics/interface engine is a technical marvel. I’ve played on many major engines in this industry and it ranks at the top for doing all the things it has to do.

….I hear, from many reliable sources, that logins are at an alltime low. Confidence is low. Many of us know that the license for LOTRO has not be renewed and that we can expect cheap and cheerful content in the immediate future. …..
My advice would be not to sink another penny into this game until Turbine clarify what is going on with the license. I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are advocating, and I hope you continue to enjoy the game, despite the views of others.

I disagree with you in that the only reliable source of game log-ons and whether the license is renewed is Turbine. Claiming to know about log-on numbers and the state of the license is the type of negative, fabrication-based propaganda that this entire thread was started about. However, I do agree with you about holding off on major Turbine point purchases until an announcement on a license is made. I’m not about to spend $200 on Turbine points only to find out next week LOTRO’s license is about to expire.

…..Even if he was - it's his right to go and tell people what he thinks anyway. An old adage in customer service is that if you do something good, they'll tell one person. If you do one thing wrong, they'll tell 10 people.

If Turbine wanted to damage limit the bad press, they would engage more, change things and listen to their customers. I get that some things might be limited due to staff, money or technology.

I'd rather hear "we can't do that" than nothing at all. I think maybe they are realizing that; what with the recent announcement that basically PvMP is not being developed further.

……

If you follow other gaming companies (and I follow lots of major and medium-sized ones), most of them have no more negative publicity than Turbine has. Even indie games run into almost absurd trolling complaints. So I’d humbly suggest that no gaming company is really going to limit negative publicity. Instead they just have the make the best game that the majority of people who play it will like. I’d even suggest further that there will almost always be people upset about a game no matter what devs do.

I do agree with you that the more that Turbine can say “we can’t do that” the better it would be. For example, in Helm’s Deep expac, I think it would bee good PR for them to state precisely what new raids, if any, will come out and what type of raids they will be.

[DarkCntry]

A violent, aggressive, potentially dangerous drunk is to a bar, what an unsatisfied player is to Lotro. I find that quite stupid....

You cant make heads or tails because you have no idea what the analogy was an answer to.

I'm sorry, but you've mistaken what I wrote with someone else...I stated that a person creating a scene, be it violent or non, can be equally damaging as a person who does nothing but badmouth this game. Never once did I equate it to a specific and in such a manner to which you're attempting to say I did.

The analogy was simple, a bar can, and will, remove a patron that is creating a disturbance even if said patron has spent a large sum of money and is willing to spend more. You were the only person who equated a disturbance to "violent" and "dangerous".

And apparently i need to quote myself. "Till then, deal with the negative rep and bad word of mouth that spills to youtube, other forums, and Turbines other projects........"

So in other words, Turbine has no recourse but to sit back and watch people who are not doing anything but exclaiming their knowledge of Turbine and/or the game are nothing but trash? Right, I see where you're going...here's the problem though, Turbine truly doesn't care 'what' the person says, only how it is said, and in the case of what I read from the analogy, I read it as "a person has every right to be upset and state as such, but they don't have a right to deride and berate employees of Turbine."

That proves, that im fully aware of the damage an unsatisfied customer can do. But you see, an unsatisfied player does follow rules set by Turbine while a violent drunk does not follow the rules of the bar. Thats why the analogy is rubish. The poster of the analogy said he wants to get rid of the people that spread negativity since they are same as violent drunks. I have just shown you why they are not. We did not have a discussion about the damage a customer can do, but instead about him wanting to get rid of them for breaking absolutely no rules. For only spreading what he calls "negativity".

In the future first read the analogy then read what it refers to. You will avoid looking silly.....

Are you aware that drunk people can be problematic without them being violent? You are aware that a drunk person can strip off all of their clothes, exclaim said establishment has alcohol that 'sucks' and bartenders who are so inept that he had to take off his clothes so they wouldn't get messed up, and still be considered a negative source of attention that can, and more than likely will, be removed from the premises?

So please, stop with the reaching and attempt to react to the correct statements going on instead of fabricating aspects that aren't being stated.

[zagreb000]

stuff

You need to take a look at what he was trying to counter with that analogy. It was completely misplaced and that is the main reason i called it trash.....

This has really become pointless. Im just repeating my self.
"you do know drunks dont need to be violent"? Cmon, you must see this has nothing to do with anything. You are just pulling out stuff that you can write a response to.

I already wrote down the conclusion to this nonsense in one of my previous comments. Time to move on to something more meaningful .......

[Almagnus1]

No idea what the rest of your post says. I stopped reading right there. For very obvious reasons.

Let's try this again....

Going off of the 10.1 patch notes at http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Upda...-_April_3_2013, specifically the part that says:

Tactic: Focus: Lowered ICPR buff

Before getting into my reaction, first some background on this skill so the non-captains understand where I'm coming from.

Tactic: Focus is so badly outshined by Tactics: Relentless Attack (aka Crit Buff) and Tactics: On Guard (aka Parry Buff) that it has the reputation of being the trolling tactic. It has had this reputation since RoI, and some would argue for a very long time before.

When I see changes like the above in the patch notes, it makes me think that something is seriously wrong with the class development process within Turbine. Why would anyone make one of the worst skills in the captain class even worse?

There's a sense of bewilderment and helplessness that comes from being involved with Bullroarer (which should really be called a preview server instead of a testing server) and seeing stuff get pointed out, more often than not with pages of "This is a bad idea, here's why, don't do this" and watching as Turbine does it anyway. It strongly gives the impression that the spreadsheet is ruling the decisions, rather than player feedback.