Minstrel Tweaks

[sapienze]

The screenshots are just for Healing, that was the point of the guys who wanted screens, I think^^

For Update 22 which was released in March there was no reason at all to equip Finesse on red line. I never had more than the finesse given in Red trait line which are around 20k after the rework! With Echoes of battle and LI legacie there was basically 0% resist etc. So I actually don't no why 130k would be necessary.

However if you mean U.23 which we are in right now you need around 70k to be fine with all the resist stuff... probably even less 50k to have a non respectable amount of Resist in Ettenmoors. Since i don't have full Damage gear, I can't change a lot with my finesse right now lowering it to a point it is fine.

And in PvE there isn't anything resisting in away that it would bother me while having 0 Finesse

And still the DoTs are not up to date right now...

There was plenty of reason to slot Finesse in U22 especially for PvMP but it comes down to philosophy, I guess.

Echo of Battles isn't worth (This may change since Vastin's thread here) the time imo and don't bother to slot the legacy. Its a situation skill for me not a mainstay. Tact Mast, Crit R, Finesse and things die before I do but then again I am self reliant where as others may be in a raid situation for PvMP and have those non essentials at their leisure. Vitality is nice but I never strive to be morale stacked just for the sake of being that way. Resistance is nice but inherently resistance is easy to get for a Minstrel in other ways enough to suffice. Redline glass cannon Minstrel in PvMP is the way I travel.

[TheRedfox]

Yeah and the biggest problem there is that about the 3 heal classes its not only about pure heal numbers.
Specially the heal rk need a rechange on their biggest cooldown where they can absorb -60% inc dmg of the whole fellowship on 1/3 uptime.
The biggest problem is that if you stack that by using 3 heal rks you can ignore almost every mechanic.

I would suggest:-30% heal nerv flat for beorning+mini+a 3-5min coodlown on rk stone.
And idealy before T3 gets released on live!

I'm not familiar with RK heals; what's this ability (or gear/LI setup) that does this huge inc dmg fellowshipwide reduction?

[FaceMelter11]

- Gift/Legend of Hammerhand bubble magnitudes increased (10%->20% Max Vital)
- Healers/Heroes/Dissonant strike damage increased by ~800%, now draws their base dmg from tactical implement.
- Dissonant strike now does Light damage like the other two strikes.
- All Ballad damage increased by ~40%.

As an exclusive Red Line Minstrel, these changes are in particular very exciting to me.

I know there aren't many DPS Minstrels out there but I appreciate even the slight buffs. Maybe some day we'll even be considered viable for groups : )

[kalil]

I'm strictly a red line mini as well and am hopeful about those additions. I must say i am a little worried when Vastin mentioned the normalization part because i keep thinking of what happened to LM a few months ago with the horrible nerf to their dps in red line. Also, worried about the induction increase to the heals in red line..with the proposed changes..1.4s and 2.7s inductions to Raise the Spirit and Bolster Courage and CoS changing to 12s recast time...Red line has never been remotely decent with heals...hoping it won't get worse. DPS is good not great and don't want to see an overall nerf with dps and a reduction in heals to boot.

[Thorebane]

So Tact mit isn't capped at 151k with the Hymne, but why would you cap that with that Moral... and the rings are the ones with OH so that is overcapped, but i can't really go down with it ^^because i loose so much other stats



and thats with HK-Set ... yes crit goes down but 0.x% who cares



I've slottet 5 critical raiting essences and 2 Physical mitigation rest vitality and you could leave the 2 mitigation out and put in more vitality because that's on something where i don't have switch gear yet, but i need it for the Ettenmoors

Dannnng a person who's actually been able to respond to requests and not bluff their way through :P
Cheers man!

I gotta ask though, is that with scrolls on + food aswell or not? Because even if it is, you're WAAAAAAAY Overcapped on physical mitigation!
It looks like you have the vitality set armour, judging by that amount of vit? (I've got 8 vit slotted and still not even 32K so if it isn't that set... I'm super confused at how you got it) Haha ! <3

[Fureo]

Dannnng a person who's actually been able to respond to requests and not bluff their way through :P
Cheers man!

I gotta ask though, is that with scrolls on + food aswell or not? Because even if it is, you're WAAAAAAAY Overcapped on physical mitigation!
It looks like you have the vitality set armour, judging by that amount of vit? (I've got 8 vit slotted and still not even 32K so if it isn't that set... I'm super confused at how you got it) Haha ! <3

As you can see in the right corner, it's with scrolls etc.

I mentioned I am overcapped for the Ettenmoors, but I don't have enough switch gear yet to get down on physical mit.

And no I'm not using the Vitality because the bonus isn't as good compared to essences like Critical rating is. I'm wearing 2x Induction set, 4x critical rating set. And with that "stupid" Moral stacking build I have 19 Vitality, 5 critical rating and 2 phys mitigation essences equipped. And with the HK Jewellry it's 17 Vit essences :=).

[FaceMelter11]

I'm strictly a red line mini as well and am hopeful about those additions. I must say i am a little worried when Vastin mentioned the normalization part because i keep thinking of what happened to LM a few months ago with the horrible nerf to their dps in red line. Also, worried about the induction increase to the heals in red line..with the proposed changes..1.4s and 2.7s inductions to Raise the Spirit and Bolster Courage and CoS changing to 12s recast time...Red line has never been remotely decent with heals...hoping it won't get worse. DPS is good not great and don't want to see an overall nerf with dps and a reduction in heals to boot.

I am also unsure about what Vastin means with "normalization".

A quick google shows references in various patches to it but there is no detail as to what it actually means.

[crl13107]

The changes to anthems, SoS and cooldowns on RtS/BC continue to lower the diversity of play-style minstrels have (animation cutting, balancing coda trade-off, anthem options, etc.). Even if minstrels are on par with other healers, more people will continue to switch to other healers as the already least diverse healer becomes more 1-dimensional and less fun to play. Even if raw healing output surpass other healers they will continue to be overshadowed by those same healers in end-game scenarios due to group utility.

[CaerArianrhod]

I gotta ask though, is that with scrolls on + food aswell or not? Because even if it is, you're WAAAAAAAY Overcapped on physical mitigation!

p = physical mitigation; t = tactical mitigation
T2 New: light: p: 196.274 / t: 173.655; medium: p: 232.916 / t: 210.298; heavy: p: 263.174 / t: 240.555;
T3: light: p: 224.547 / t: 179.310; medium: p: 261.189 / t: 215.953; heavy: p: 291.447 / t: 246.210

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Cha...tats#Stat_caps

The changes to anthems, SoS and cooldowns on RtS/BC continue to lower the diversity of play-style minstrels have [...]

And this statement is based on testing the changes ... where exactly?

[Emaldiom]

Dannnng a person who's actually been able to respond to requests and not bluff their way through :P
Cheers man!

I gotta ask though, is that with scrolls on + food aswell or not? Because even if it is, you're WAAAAAAAY Overcapped on physical mitigation!
It looks like you have the vitality set armour, judging by that amount of vit? (I've got 8 vit slotted and still not even 32K so if it isn't that set... I'm super confused at how you got it) Haha ! <3

Bluff my way through? Why would i even do that ?
Just cause you dont see minnies with the same stats on your server does not mean they dont exist? Can you see minnies in groups when you are not there?


Oh..and here is a screenshot..not everything is min\maxed and im way overcaped on mits anyway ( tier 3 setup )

[Geremir]

Dannnng a person who's actually been able to respond to requests and not bluff their way through :P
Cheers man!

I gotta ask though, is that with scrolls on + food aswell or not? Because even if it is, you're WAAAAAAAY Overcapped on physical mitigation!
It looks like you have the vitality set armour, judging by that amount of vit? (I've got 8 vit slotted and still not even 32K so if it isn't that set... I'm super confused at how you got it) Haha ! <3

Hmm some random dude in global asking who completed Anvil in T2 so far yet....
Minibane's response: Prime, Odyssey and Aegean Eagles....
You might wanna rephrase the order instead of bluffing your way through! Since apparently this is a phrase you would like to use
No miscredit to any kin though! Still a good job to any other kin that is or has been performing it so far and made it/completed it on tier 2.

As far as tier 3 goes it is still possible that the tier 3 enhancements are going up just like in Thikil-Gundu, where on tier 2/3 you have 28/56k (armour penetration), in best case that happens in the raid as well, meaning as a light armour you will have need of 221k mits again.

Concerning mini's it is still worth going for old armour sets like 2 pieces from Throne, 2 Jewels from Helmsdeep etc. Vitality is the most worthless stat ever in there, shame that the raid doesn't do much morale damage, making it even less useful!
As for healing in general Beornings are way to strong and solely based on healing with 5 to 6 skills maximum. For an RK it is even less and everything is based on an RK stone, making it able to ignore most mechanics in the first place.

Having a patch shortly upfront a t3 raid is also not very much useful either, it is unfortunate for Vastin that he has to clear the rubble that Friendlyhat has created. I do like it that Vastin is in for feedback even though some of the mini changes might not be as beneficial as they look at first sight. When looking back at the previous patch from Friendlyhat Mini HPS could have easily stayed the same with Bolster AoE heal etc. if you plan to scale it up again.

[Thorebane]

Bluff my way through? Why would i even do that ?
Just cause you dont see minnies with the same stats on your server does not mean they dont exist? Can you see minnies in groups when you are not there?

I was saying it as a general comment, because if you check out a lot of people who ask to prove something on the forums e.g. stats, they usually never reply ! No need to get so aggressive when I said it in an extremely passive way.. ! <3


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p = physical mitigation; t = tactical mitigation
T2 New: light: p: 196.274 / t: 173.655; medium: p: 232.916 / t: 210.298; heavy: p: 263.174 / t: 240.555;
T3: light: p: 224.547 / t: 179.310; medium: p: 261.189 / t: 215.953; heavy: p: 291.447 / t: 246.210

Cheers for the text! Really weird thing however is how am I capped on mits at 175K without the trait skill from yellowline and no cappy :S hmm I'm probably missing something but *Shrugs* (I know mobs have armour pen before someone mentions this :P)

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Hmm some random dude in global asking who completed Anvil in T2 so far yet....
Minibane's response: Prime, Odyssey and Aegean Eagles....
You might wanna rephrase the order instead of bluffing your way through! Since apparently this is a phrase you would like to use
No miscredit to any kin though! Still a good job to any other kin that is or has been performing it so far and made it/completed it on tier 2.

Firstly... why so quick aswell to post such a quick wit comment that doesn't have to do with what we were talking about, but obviously calling me out.
It didn't matter what order of kins I said, I could've said Aegean Eagles, Odyssey and then Prime.. I just typed the easiest to type kin first lol. I wasn't typing in kin completion order.
Also, your bluffing comment literally doesn't make sense in your sentence.. :P

[Emaldiom]

Just curious if you could screenshot your build please.
Even on BR I've not seen any buffed mini's reaching this morale, with crit capped, OH capped and both mits capped.

I've got all new armour, AND tested with full essence jewellery, full of Vit essences after reach crit/OH/mits capped and I'm only reaching mid 165K with every buff and hope token available - and I'm the only mini I've seen around to hit that on Evernight.
Just super curious !

You asked, i delivered.
Seemed like you didnt believe me witht his comment right here

I was saying it as a general comment, because if you check out a lot of people who ask to prove something on the forums e.g. stats, they usually never reply ! No need to get so aggressive when I said it in an extremely passive way.. ! <3


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Cheers for the text! Really weird thing however is how am I capped on mits at 175K without the trait skill from yellowline and no cappy :S hmm I'm probably missing something but *Shrugs* (I know mobs have armour pen before someone mentions this :P)

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Firstly... why so quick aswell to post such a quick wit comment that doesn't have to do with what we were talking about, but obviously calling me out.
It didn't matter what order of kins I said, I could've said Aegean Eagles, Odyssey and then Prime.. I just typed the easiest to type kin first lol. I wasn't typing in kin completion order.
Also, your bluffing comment literally doesn't make sense in your sentence.. :P

Not ment as aggressive, just statin the fact that its highly possible.
The trait line from yellow actually adds another 5% on top of the % you already have.. So you should always use this

And with these builds the new 30% bubbles will in-fact come quite good..may be to OP?

[Thorebane]

You asked, i delivered.
Seemed like you didnt believe me witht his comment right here

Not ment as aggressive, just statin the fact that its highly possible.
The trait line from yellow actually adds another 5% on top of the % you already have.. So you should always use this

And with these builds the new 30% bubbles will in-fact come quite good..may be to OP?

I never said it wasn't possible, I just hadn't see any mini's on any server with what was stated, that's all :3.
I thank you for providing proof - and the other mini <3

30% will definitely be OP imo. 20 would be good though..

[Vastin]

I am also unsure about what Vastin means with "normalization".

A quick google shows references in various patches to it but there is no detail as to what it actually means.

Good Question!

In the context of all the recent character updates, it means that all the classes' abilities are being moved onto a 'normalized' effect curve - basically they all now follow the same mathematical curve of advancement from level 1-120. So for example if a Guardian's DPS ~doubles from levels 60-90, then a Minstrel's skills basically do the same. It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

For some ungodly reason every single skill and effect in the game was originally given its own discrete advancement curve. Literally several thousand of them, which made updating the levels or re-balancing any particular level range in the game very nearly impossible. It was also a complete toss-up whether they benefitted from DPS/HPS improvements. We're gradually weeding most of that out.

-Vastin

[Justapvpdude]

It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

-Vastin

Talking about base weapon DPS/HPS: why is there such a big difference in the damage runes (runes of striking/ runes of enchantment) for tactical and non-tactical classes.
The "tactical damage rating" on the runes of enchantment gives a much bigger dps increase for tactical classes than the "base combat damage modifier" of the striking runes does for non-tactical classes.

If you want to keep these runes in games, you should balance this out else it will be impossible to balance tactical/non tactical dps classes in the future.

[dsltn07]

Good Question!

In the context of all the recent character updates, it means that all the classes' abilities are being moved onto a 'normalized' effect curve - basically they all now follow the same mathematical curve of advancement from level 1-120. So for example if a Guardian's DPS ~doubles from levels 60-90, then a Minstrel's skills basically do the same. It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

For some ungodly reason every single skill and effect in the game was originally given its own discrete advancement curve. Literally several thousand of them, which made updating the levels or re-balancing any particular level range in the game very nearly impossible. It was also a complete toss-up whether they benefitted from DPS/HPS improvements. We're gradually weeding most of that out.

-Vastin

This has become abundantly clear, in that many skills have not been updated since Gondor, some not since before helms deep, war steed skills and lesser bleeds especially not since before RoR. One example would be a bleed skill on my Beorn war steed that does 40 damage per 3 seconds (level 120). It’s not the most important thing, just an example.

I am glad to hear you have established an actual system for normalization which should greatly improve your dev times and future updates substantially, thanks!

[FaceMelter11]

Good Question!

In the context of all the recent character updates, it means that all the classes' abilities are being moved onto a 'normalized' effect curve - basically they all now follow the same mathematical curve of advancement from level 1-120. So for example if a Guardian's DPS ~doubles from levels 60-90, then a Minstrel's skills basically do the same. It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

For some ungodly reason every single skill and effect in the game was originally given its own discrete advancement curve. Literally several thousand of them, which made updating the levels or re-balancing any particular level range in the game very nearly impossible. It was also a complete toss-up whether they benefitted from DPS/HPS improvements. We're gradually weeding most of that out.

-Vastin

Awesome! Thank you for the detailed clarification!

[dsltn07]

Good Question!

In the context of all the recent character updates, it means that all the classes' abilities are being moved onto a 'normalized' effect curve - basically they all now follow the same mathematical curve of advancement from level 1-120. So for example if a Guardian's DPS ~doubles from levels 60-90, then a Minstrel's skills basically do the same. It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

For some ungodly reason every single skill and effect in the game was originally given its own discrete advancement curve. Literally several thousand of them, which made updating the levels or re-balancing any particular level range in the game very nearly impossible. It was also a complete toss-up whether they benefitted from DPS/HPS improvements. We're gradually weeding most of that out.

-Vastin

I wanted to add that this is the sort of information that I love to see as communication. Knowing that this is an ongoing normalization system that is being implemented is encouraging, and knowing roughly how you’re doing it even better. I’ve been thinking for years that skills should scale more directly off weapon damage instead of purely their own modifiers. Please continue this normalization work!

[Cordovan]

It is likely there will be shifting of some of the Minstrel numbers between now and when we release Update 23.3. Current eta is next week on 23.3, depending.

[Alenora]

- Bolster Courage direct heal increased by ~55%, group heal by ~30%, animation times reduced, cooldown increased to 3s, base induction increased [2.5->2.7]

Please, delete cooldown from Bolster Courage because it reduced HPS on solo target

[Dinara]

Good Question!

In the context of all the recent character updates, it means that all the classes' abilities are being moved onto a 'normalized' effect curve - basically they all now follow the same mathematical curve of advancement from level 1-120. So for example if a Guardian's DPS ~doubles from levels 60-90, then a Minstrel's skills basically do the same. It also ties all the skills into your primary implements much more tightly so that almost all your skills and effects should respond correctly to increases in base weapon DPS or HPS.

For some ungodly reason every single skill and effect in the game was originally given its own discrete advancement curve. Literally several thousand of them, which made updating the levels or re-balancing any particular level range in the game very nearly impossible. It was also a complete toss-up whether they benefitted from DPS/HPS improvements. We're gradually weeding most of that out.

-Vastin

Can I ask, why are we finding LIGHT armor with MIGHT on it?

[Oelle]

Can I ask, why are we finding LIGHT armor with MIGHT on it?

you mean on low level gear? or on current endgame equipment?
For low level gear, the answer is: several systems and stats worked completely different in the old days and stats were not changed on most items.

[dsltn07]

What Oelle said. Ideally once all the skills are normalized, stats for all classes would be too, and then all the gear throughout the game normalized according to a stat rework. But, realistically that’d be a Herculean effort. For now I’m thrilled skills are being worked on.

[Moondog548]

...snip...

- Raise the Spirit's yellow line trait now properly applies a Fellowship HoT (3ticks/2s, 20m radius)

...snip...

Just out of curiosity.... You had said that "bug fixes" were not in the cards for your work on this task, and that made sense because everything you were doing was doable "in a spreadsheet".

So was that a bug fix you went out of your way to fix, or was it something that was actually correctable in your spreadsheet? we're eternally grateful either way.