Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

The Corsairs have indeed come for treasure in Minhiriath! XD



Now, there is definitely a Corsair ship there, what's up with that :P

I was actually standing next to Tharbad's border near the river when I logged in. So I went to take a look only it turned out I crossed over to Minhiriath... @Scenario a bug... I don't have the courage to just mount and gallop into raw uncharted territory of course. But seems like there are invisible walls everywhere and there is definitely invisible wall if you approach the end of the mini radar landmass. Makes me wonder how does that work? Do the devs put random invisible walls beyond the actual border, maybe early in the development, or are these walls some glitches that happen to us, or did they maybe wanted us to see this ship so they put extra walls behind the border to limit our movements and intentionally had the river border bugged.

But it worked, now I definitely want some crazy treasure hunting race with Corsais in Minhiriath :P

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I'd personally not consider it a sign of the actual Umbarian Corsairs until we actually see said corsairs in the landscape, or get it confirmed by the devs that its meant to be the actual Corsairs. In cases like these devs tend to just use a boat model they have on hand, rather than an actual implication that the Corsairs of Umbar went like thousands of miles up the coast from Gondor into Eriador because... reasons?

[TesalionLortus]

True, sometimes these are just replacements. Or it's just fun/easter egg. Or something.

Although, if that's just one lone ship with its crew then I wouldn't mind that they've come there for reasons. Say, got an idea to hit and run along Gondor's coast, were quick and never caught, and then sailed into Eriador well-supplied for reasons because they've heard of some treasure, either from locals or maybe back in Umbar (so probably of Numenorean origins). Which doesn't need to exist or be what they believe it is, but it's enough that they believe it to be true. For example. I wouldn't mind, would be a fun story arc.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

The Corsairs have indeed come for treasure in Minhiriath! XD

Well this is rather interesting… thanks to those that spotted this and added the picture here.

I feel like there are four options as to what this could be, given the ‘salt water’ hint from Severlin:
a) Early development of the Minhiriath zone, as this is where we are going next (I feel this is unlikely, as assets like boats which are a bit more cosmetic presumably get added a bit later in the development cycle)
b) An Easter Egg added to act as a hint that Minhiriath will be the next zone, with the thought that players might just about spot it (but not suggesting like a that the zone is a significant way through development).
c) A reminder of the ‘sea water’ hint, suggesting that we are heading to Umbar for the next update/expansion, but not implying that we’ll see Minhiriath.
d) An out of place asset that just ended up there for no reason.

I think b or c are the most likely options.

[Feral_Yoda]

My first thought when I first spotted (and then confirmed what i thought i saw) the ship, was an easter-egg type deal as well. Same as the more easily spotted "elf" ship down river from Celondim.

But who knows. With the salt water clue and Umbar, it could be relevant (even if out the way). Vikings and other raiders often went massive distances to raid and plunder.

Pursuing a ship from Belfalas that managed to evade their invasion? On a specific mission? Who knows? There are any number of reasons a ship could come this way.
Maybe one day we can find out.

[miriadel]

The Corsairs have indeed come for treasure in Minhiriath! XD



Now, there is definitely a Corsair ship there, what's up with that :P

I was actually standing next to Tharbad's border near the river when I logged in. So I went to take a look only it turned out I crossed over to Minhiriath... @Scenario a bug... I don't have the courage to just mount and gallop into raw uncharted territory of course. But seems like there are invisible walls everywhere and there is definitely invisible wall if you approach the end of the mini radar landmass. Makes me wonder how does that work? Do the devs put random invisible walls beyond the actual border, maybe early in the development, or are these walls some glitches that happen to us, or did they maybe wanted us to see this ship so they put extra walls behind the border to limit our movements and intentionally had the river border bugged.

But it worked, now I definitely want some crazy treasure hunting race with Corsais in Minhiriath :P

oooooh pretty! I need to not get my hopes up but man...... I so want it to be true

[TesalionLortus]

Scenario was so adamant about them NOT working anywhere close to Minhiriath so probably not, but I actually found it strange - SPOILER - how the spy woman from Rohan just runs away into Minhiriath with her report for Saurman in BtS Epic and... what? She won't appear again anywhere in Rohan nor Isengard content, which is strange now, plus, if she were to reappear in a "major" way that mingles with too many established characters from Rohan (so future Epic) that's kinda off because not every player would have done BtS storyline (it was supposed to be alternate one, and it was constructed like it - that's why the major character who has established relationship with the PC gotta die dramatically, otherwise would have been problematic/off into later content). I mean, sure, you can just tell she was one of his many spies and perhaps met a sad end off-screen, being too trusting of the wizard, but... would be unlike SSG to specifically introduce a character like that and just discard them, even though it could have been resolved in BtS if only they caught up to her. So my guess is: she never reached Saruman, was stranded in Minhiriath instead for reasons and might be used in its storylines. Still a bit off, taking into account the betrayal and the impact on BtS PC (but none on non-BtS PC). I guess they can just only mildly hint this familiarity by having alternate dialogue somewhere for BtS player and non-BtS player?

PS: Now, I haven't reach 32 yet and wasn't in Rivendell, but my safe bet is she doesn't appear again, correct me if I'm wrong

[miriadel]

she does not appear again. But then it'd be weird if the next epic is a continuation of BtS and is suddenly a spike at level cap, because they also said the next zone would be 140.

[TesalionLortus]

she does not appear again. But then it'd be weird if the next epic is a continuation of BtS and is suddenly a spike at level cap, because they also said the next zone would be 140.

That's why I said only a "mild" familiarity that you would be shown to have with this character (but for all purposes of regional storyline whether you knew this character before or not wouldn't really matter aside from a short text snippet, so not really a "continuation of BtS"). That's the best I can see here. If that's something on the table but probably not.

PS: Note, any "hints" of Minhiriath that we get might be also a softcore indication of potential next lower lvl zone, for some range. Next 140 zone and even next one after that might be something else entirely

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Well this is rather interesting… thanks to those that spotted this and added the picture here.

I feel like there are four options as to what this could be, given the ‘salt water’ hint from Severlin:
a) Early development of the Minhiriath zone, as this is where we are going next (I feel this is unlikely, as assets like boats which are a bit more cosmetic presumably get added a bit later in the development cycle)
b) An Easter Egg added to act as a hint that Minhiriath will be the next zone, with the thought that players might just about spot it (but not suggesting like a that the zone is a significant way through development).
c) A reminder of the ‘sea water’ hint, suggesting that we are heading to Umbar for the next update/expansion, but not implying that we’ll see Minhiriath.
d) An out of place asset that just ended up there for no reason.

I think b or c are the most likely options.

I don't think Umbar will be the next update/expansion. I can't think of a reason why we would just jump over to Umbar with no sort of set up narrative.

Given that Scenario said the thing he is working on is very far away from Minhiriath, and the salt water connection, I think Anfalas, Harondor, or Nurn, are the most likely guesses. Anfalas and Harondor being located next to the ocean, and the Sea of Nurn suspected to be a salt water sea. Unless they massively curveball us and start adding in the Elven lands in Lindon, the only other place on the maps next to salt water is the island of Tol Falas, but thats too small IMO to be a full, level 140+ zone map release.

[CloudCastle]

I don't think Umbar will be the next update/expansion. I can't think of a reason why we would just jump over to Umbar with no sort of set up narrative.

Given that Scenario said the thing he is working on is very far away from Minhiriath, and the salt water connection, I think Anfalas, Harondor, or Nurn, are the most likely guesses. Anfalas and Harondor being located next to the ocean, and the Sea of Nurn suspected to be a salt water sea. Unless they massively curveball us and start adding in the Elven lands in Lindon, the only other place on the maps next to salt water is the island of Tol Falas, but thats too small IMO to be a full, level 140+ zone map release.

I'm still putting my bet on Umbar (although a salty Sea of Nurn would be quite the interesting curve ball.) I base my bet mostly on the fact that a year or so ago, the big map was expanded into that region and it seems odd to have a scroll bar that goes all the way down into Umbar when there is nothing there yet.

I'm hoping to see Jajax again!

[auximenes]

(although a salty Sea of Nurn would be quite the interesting curve ball.)

I don't see any outflows from the Sea of Nurn on the classic ME map, it would certainly be salty, especially over time, like the Dead Sea.

As for the Corsair ship I think it's too out-of-place to just be an Easter Egg, if it were an Easter Egg I would expect it to be something classic to the area like the boat downstream in Celondim. I think there's definitely a story being told here in the future, like a renegade Corsair with a stolen ship.

[Hierona]

I don't think Umbar will be the next update/expansion. I can't think of a reason why we would just jump over to Umbar with no sort of set up narrative.

Given that Scenario said the thing he is working on is very far away from Minhiriath, and the salt water connection, I think Anfalas, Harondor, or Nurn, are the most likely guesses. Anfalas and Harondor being located next to the ocean, and the Sea of Nurn suspected to be a salt water sea. Unless they massively curveball us and start adding in the Elven lands in Lindon, the only other place on the maps next to salt water is the island of Tol Falas, but thats too small IMO to be a full, level 140+ zone map release.

Not Umbar it self, but can be working to that direction. There needs to be a new epic, so the set up will probably be in the existing areas so there is set-up. What I hope they will do is place a boat at Pelargir and let us go from there to the south. It is possible they let us go east (south of Mordor to Khand) a bit more, before working south again. But Umbar is a good candidate for us cause it is direct threat to Gondor still.

I hope when they go to Anfalas that they use it to chain us back to Eriador with the scourging. That way you make your way back while not seeing the exact same zones again.

[Phantion]

Don't forget they've thrown all sorts of "curve balls" at us that, realistically speaking, don't make any geographic sense with Tolkien's actual leagues / map scale.


For example, Black Book sends us all over Gorgoroth, all the way north to Greenwood and Erebor, out to Iron Hills, up to Ered Mithrin, down to Anduin Vales - then all the way back down to Minas Morgul - for Legacy of Durin to take us all the way back north to Wells, Elderslade / WoTP, and Gundabad.

So don't be surprised if we end up with another surprise letter from Aragorn asking us to double-back south again or some such thing. It seems they've long since given up on "narrative realism" when it comes to "how many months would it take these characters to go from A - B back to A and up to B again on Tolkien's actual map" and are less constrained by it.

Realistically speaking, if our characters had actually done everything they've done - if they existed in Tolkien's story - Frodo would've sailed to the West by now. It just takes that many months to cross the whole breadth of Middle-earth multiple times in a row like that, save for convenient narrative exceptions (*like Gandalf needing to get from Rohan to the Shire in 2-3 days, so we're going to use an Eagle and Shadowfax as enchanted, faster creatures as narrative excuses to make that possible, where, meanwhile, the Fellowship has to slog for 15 days on foot just to get from High Moor to Hollin Ridge in Eregion).

So, in short: honestly, "geographic feasibility of the narrative" went out the window the moment we magically woke-up after the First Battle of the Isen, and somehow teleported all the way over and around and down into Lothlorien, all over Great River multiple times in weeks' worth of content, and somehow made it to Parth Galen / Amon Hen in the East Wall literally the day after Boromir died.

(*Really, just all the times we gaunt all across Gorgoroth multiple times in journeys that took Frodo and Sam quite a multi-week slog on-foot would've pushed us past the Scouring if we think of Tolkien's map scale and timeline realistically).

I've long since mourned its passing - that of narrative-timeline-landscape continuity - and have made peace with its loss I think it's fair to say the Devs will ship us wherever they find interesting - and at most, the narrative connections will be thematic (*like, ok, we missed-out on a few Masters of Mordor, so it's time to start chasing them again, etc. That sort of thing). I sincerely doubt it'll be as direct as "Durin thanks you and sends you somewhere with geographic relation to the present plot in the aftermath of Hiddenhoard." No.

I'd bet it'll be a letter from King Elessar II summoning us back to Midsummer MT (*just because it's the shiny, sparkling version of the city in that timeline) - to do X, Y, and Z.

Or, who knows? Maybe Durin will send us to talk to the Zhelruka and send us out to Rhun, if we assume Rhun is a saltwater in-land sea? We'll have to wait and see! LOL! But yeah, I'm long since over it. I fretted about it when Great River first launched, etc. etc. etc. The above is not really me complaining about it anymore; it's just stating the facts of the matter, and ok - I'm all aboard for it


Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Not Umbar it self, but can be working to that direction. There needs to be a new epic, so the set up will probably be in the existing areas so there is set-up. What I hope they will do is place a boat at Pelargir and let us go from there to the south. It is possible they let us go east (south of Mordor to Khand) a bit more, before working south again. But Umbar is a good candidate for us cause it is direct threat to Gondor still.

I hope when they go to Anfalas that they use it to chain us back to Eriador with the scourging. That way you make your way back while not seeing the exact same zones again.

I would honestly be surprised if we ever go into Khand, Harad, or Rhun proper. Outside of a possible trip to Umbar which is technically in Harad, but an independent city state largely separate from the rest of the region.

• There is not much reason for a person of the West, like our character, to go there.
• These places have long been under the control of Sauron or Melkor, and would likely just kill us on sight.
• There's way too many new assets that would be needed for these far off lands.
• As is theres easily another decade+ worth of zones needed to finish out the part of Middle Earth we are already in.
• Even if they spent a decade+ covering these lands they wouldn't even be able to come close to finishing them off, creating an expectation from the playerbase they can never realistically fulfill.
• While SSG has been good about fleshing out obscure parts of the lore in the places we have been, these lands have even less to work with, so there wouldn't be that same feeling of "truthfullness" in their adaptations in the game

I'm also not really sure Anfalas makes sense as a place to start a chain back north. If you look at the world map, the Eriador map, and the Gondor map, the entire southwestern part of the landmass gets cut off, and appears in neither the Gondor or Eriador specific maps. I'm not sure they would go along the coast that the game doesn't even really acknowledged to go back to the Shire for the Scouring. Especially when they can just made a "Blood of Azog" style update where we go back to the Shire in a limited section of the map thats been scoured.

[MadeofLions]

I've long since mourned its passing - that of narrative-timeline-landscape continuity - and have made peace with its loss...

You mean the thing that never existed? That was never the game we were making, and thank goodness for that. Realistic travel times would have prevented us from telling *any* of the storylines we wanted to tell, including those from LotR proper, and would have made for a very short-lived game indeed. Would there have been an audience for that? Sure! A tiny one.

I'd have played it, and I'm sure you and some of the other geography fans would have too, but this is better.

MoL

[SingularityNow]

I don't think Umbar will be the next update/expansion. I can't think of a reason why we would just jump over to Umbar with no sort of set up narrative.

I can give you a real good reason... Level bands. There's no adjacent area to go to 150 from 140, other than into the desolate area north of Gundabad so the most obvious solution is a map that will be a portal off the main map which would make Umbar a likely candidate. If you're going there by boat portal from say Dol Amroth, you're able to segregate lower level bands from wandering in and even if you work your way back and connect to say the southern side of gondor, that's area is so out of the way it would at least mitigate accidentally crossing into a major new 150 area.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I don't think Umbar will be the next update/expansion. I can't think of a reason why we would just jump over to Umbar with no sort of set up narrative.

Given that Scenario said the thing he is working on is very far away from Minhiriath, and the salt water connection, I think Anfalas, Harondor, or Nurn, are the most likely guesses. Anfalas and Harondor being located next to the ocean, and the Sea of Nurn suspected to be a salt water sea. Unless they massively curveball us and start adding in the Elven lands in Lindon, the only other place on the maps next to salt water is the island of Tol Falas, but thats too small IMO to be a full, level 140+ zone map release.

I’m sure that there will be a setup narrative, but I do think it is possible they’ll do what we’ve seen before with Strongholds of the North - do the big jump and then fill in later, on the way back.

As for Scenario… Scenario lies! (Although to be fair, I think he’s usually just given indirect answers rather than direct untruths! )

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I can give you a real good reason... Level bands. There's no adjacent area to go to 150 from 140, other than into the desolate area north of Gundabad so the most obvious solution is a map that will be a portal off the main map which would make Umbar a likely candidate. If you're going there by boat portal from say Dol Amroth, you're able to segregate lower level bands from wandering in and even if you work your way back and connect to say the southern side of gondor, that's area is so out of the way it would at least mitigate accidentally crossing into a major new 150 area.

I don't think they'll do that, especially after they've said they don't want a redo of Northern Mirkwood.

And like the level band thing really only applies as an issue to lower level zones, since they don't want new players to wander into something like a level 140 zone. There's nothing preventing them from making like Anfalas a level 150 zone next to a level 100 zones because, at that point, you know how the game works.

[TesalionLortus]

You mean the thing that never existed? That was never the game we were making, and thank goodness for that. Realistic travel times would have prevented us from telling *any* of the storylines we wanted to tell, including those from LotR proper, and would have made for a very short-lived game indeed. Would there have been an audience for that? Sure! A tiny one.

I'd have played it, and I'm sure you and some of the other geography fans would have too, but this is better.

MoL

Yes... I just wanted to mention that. Not sure exactly what Phantion meant when they worded it like that, that we somehow "lost" it - but it was never there. Now, some kind of narrative coherence and consequence - so outside of the passage of time and distances - was actually there. And how all of that affected the world at large, in-depth, interconnected and mostly sticking to canonical timeline of events - as they progressed canonically minus the time passage thing. So, loosing that would be a blow. But hopefully it won't come to that... and you can still mend Gundabad events in a way that won't feel extra off and artificial for characterization's believability with the likes of Gimli, Aragorn, Thranduil, Gandalf and so on, and why they were not involved/concerned in the slightest

I can give you a real good reason... Level bands. There's no adjacent area to go to 150 from 140, other than into the desolate area north of Gundabad so the most obvious solution is a map that will be a portal off the main map which would make Umbar a likely candidate.

What, because they can't have 150 area next to 100+ something zone? Bah, if that were true, we wouldn't have the Vales connected to Lothlorien at all, or even Swanfleet connected to... Enedwaith

As for Scenario… Scenario lies! (Although to be fair, I think he’s usually just given indirect answers rather than direct untruths! )

Well, I did considered the notion Scenario might be telling falsehoods (well, let's call it "diversion" , since they probably don't want anything to get figured out too soon, like happened before. But who can tell for real

[SingularityNow]

What, because they can't have 150 area next to 100+ something zone? Bah, if that were true, we wouldn't have the Vales connected to Lothlorien at all, or even Swanfleet connected to... Enedwaith

No, that's not what I said Blahguy. If you recall, Vales didn't come from Loth. Vales is GREW to loth FROM Northern Mirk and norther Mirk was a.... wait for it...

Wait for it...

Ready?

DISCONNECTED level cap zone that was only available via PORT.

Just like I said Umbar would be.

[TesalionLortus]

No, that's not what I said Blahguy. If you recall, Vales didn't come from Loth. Vales is GREW to loth FROM Northern Mirk and norther Mirk was a.... wait for it...

Wait for it...

Ready?

DISCONNECTED level cap zone that was only available via PORT.

Just like I said Umbar would be.

I'm pretty sure they did Mirkwood/Dale (and the entire Hobbit nods in it) because they wanted to do it, simply what they chose to do (plus they could have setups for Rhun there, that's when we got them for the first time), not because it was some ideal disconnected zone from the rest of the world

As Swanfleet has shown, having a zone connected, as in naturally growing the world, is quite well-received I think. Also, I guess, if viable and fits the idea of what they're doing next, having the zone connect one by one is better for world design vs throwing a zone somewhere out there but then you effectively created these constrained pockets of landmass in-between, even though you don't yet know how are going to handle these X years into future, so better to have wiggle room than none (The Anduin areas and Gundabad turned out fine and felt natural and well-sized, so that's great, but no guarantee it would always be the case)

[SingularityNow]

I'm pretty sure they did Mirkwood/Dale (and the entire Hobbit nods in it) because they wanted to do it, simply what they chose to do (plus they could have setups for Rhun there, that's when we got them for the first time), not because it was some ideal disconnected zone from the rest of the world

Can you tell me one time in the history of the game they've launched a higher level zone next to a lower level zone that couldn't be connected to the next previous level?

[TesalionLortus]

Can you tell me one time in the history of the game they've launched a higher level zone next to a lower level zone that couldn't be connected to the next previous level?

Maybe it's just the evening and I'm struggling to understand your sentence.

But they launched Gundabad connected with Angmar, ritght?

[SingularityNow]

Maybe it's just the evening and I'm struggling to understand your sentence.

But they launched Gundabad connected with Angmar, ritght?

But also connected to Elderslade. They've always launched a new zone with a new level cap adjacent to the previous or current level cap. Except where it's separated by teleport.