Any Sindarin experts online?

So there are these nasty little goblins in parts of Enedwaith and Dunland. They're called bugan, singular ... and bugan, plural. Shouldn't that be bugain, or even bygain?

While i'm not an expert in anything, nor would i claim to be lest somebody else jump me for it.. but where does the assumption that 'bugan' is elvish come from?

They are parked in the corner of the dunlands? which as far as i know are based on the welsh, somebody correct me if i'm wrong. Which means that bugan is likely to be some form of welsh.

I'd ask, but i'm english, i'm likely to be spat on an called names if i talk to welsh people (yes, real world experience btw)

I doubt that 'bugan' is Sindarin. As Gwailion said, they likely come from some sort of Welsh background.

Speaking of Sindarin, anyone else somewhat bemused that:
-Rohirrim, a class plural, is used for individual NPCs? Would not each individual NPC be a 'Rohir' or something similar?
-Galadhrim in Lorien and Malledhrim in South Mirkwood have the same problem, with the -rim class plural on each individual. Should not each individual be called Galadh Elf and Malledh Elf, or perhaps have a suffix that indicates an individual?
-That the Rohirrim in Dunland have the same voice tracks as the Grey Company folks... and so are saying 'Mae Govannen' and 'I hope we come to Aragorn's aid in time'. XD I would *love* them to greet us with 'westu hal' as in the book.

/language ramble

Bugan is Welsh, not Sindarin, and we chose to use the same form for both singular and plural by design. :)

Until the age of 18 all of my education was in Welsh, although I now live in the north of England and haven't had much opportunity to speak the language in years I still have some knowledge and can hold a conversation.

Most similar Welsh words I can think of off the top of my head ending in -gan would turn to -ganod in plural form, although -gain isn't unheard of either. The closest word I could think of to "bugan" in Welsh is "bwgan" ('w' is a vowel in Welsh) which is Welsh for ghost and plurals to "bwganod".

singular and plural for peoples is quite common in this neck of the woods, english, scottish, welsh, british

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Originally Posted by Laire

Speaking of Sindarin, anyone else somewhat bemused that:
-Rohirrim, a class plural, is used for individual NPCs? Would not each individual NPC be a 'Rohir' or something similar?
-Galadhrim in Lorien and Malledhrim in South Mirkwood have the same problem, with the -rim class plural on each individual. Should not each individual be called Galadh Elf and Malledh Elf, or perhaps have a suffix that indicates an individual?
-

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Not really much different than the fairly common modern day misuse of "alumni" to refer to individuals. If a license plate holder says "MIT Alumni" for example it's implying a group membership while not being a correct tag for the person driving. In the LOTRO cases it's easier to say "Galadhrim" than "Member of the Galadhrim". I think the "member of the" is implied but silent and invisible.

I would guess that "buganod" would seem at least as, well, odd to players not familiar with Welsh as the way Turbine chose. Using the same word for the plural is simpler and more convenient.

"bugan, s.m., pi. buganod, bzganod, bwgan, W.S., 'ghost, bogy':
bugan bra:n (brain), ' scarecrow ' ;
gneyd bugan maur o bo:b ped, ' to make mountains of molehills, exaggerate little anxieties ' "

From: Full text of "The Welsh vocabulary of the Bangor district"

http://www.archive.org/stream/welshv...euoft_djvu.txt

Edit: If you've ever wondered what the heck the Bugan are saying (I know I did) there's a post here that discusses it.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...d-Bugan-saying

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Bugan is Welsh, not Sindarin, and we chose to use the same form for both singular and plural by design. :)

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Ah, good to know! Very interesting ^^

Now I wonder if the men of Gondor will be Gondorian or Gondorrim... :D

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Originally Posted by Laire

Speaking of Sindarin, anyone else somewhat bemused that:
-Rohirrim, a class plural, is used for individual NPCs? Would not each individual NPC be a 'Rohir' or something similar?
-Galadhrim in Lorien and Malledhrim in South Mirkwood have the same problem, with the -rim class plural on each individual. Should not each individual be called Galadh Elf and Malledh Elf, or perhaps have a suffix that indicates an individual?

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Well, really, the -rim suffix denotes a collective singular noun for the entirety of the group. You cant really break that down to an individual conjugation of the word. Malledh wouldnt even be a real word...Malledhrim means "Golden Host", there isnt a corresponding word that means Golden Host-ile :) You're just an elf of the Malledhrim

It's like saying the "US Army"...you cant be an Army-an. You can be a member of the Army, which is what I always assumed when I saw "Galadhrim" or "Malledhrim" underneath an NPC's name....that was their allegiance or affiliation, the "member of..." is implied, just like the dwarves in Moria have "Iron Garrison Guards", though that individual dwarf does not constitute the entirety of the Iron Garrison Guards himself :)

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Bugan is Welsh, not Sindarin, and we chose to use the same form for both singular and plural by design. :)

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Okay.

But Welsh uses i-mutations too, if I'm not mistaken.....

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Originally Posted by djheydt

Okay.

But Welsh uses i-mutations too, if I'm not mistaken.....

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So does English, doesn't mean every noun takes part in it. :)

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Originally Posted by Penguin13

Until the age of 18 all of my education was in Welsh, although I now live in the north of England and haven't had much opportunity to speak the language in years I still have some knowledge and can hold a conversation.

Most similar Welsh words I can think of off the top of my head ending in -gan would turn to -ganod in plural form, although -gain isn't unheard of either. The closest word I could think of to "bugan" in Welsh is "bwgan" ('w' is a vowel in Welsh) which is Welsh for ghost and plurals to "bwganod".

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This is correct. Bwgan is the original form. We modify the Welsh to make it vaguely pronounceable to those who don't actually know it. ;) We chose to use the same form for singular and plural, just because we don't know Welsh. :D

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Originally Posted by droid

Well, really, the -rim suffix denotes a collective singular noun for the entirety of the group. You cant really break that down to an individual conjugation of the word. Malledh wouldnt even be a real word...Malledhrim means "Golden Host", there isnt a corresponding word that means Golden Host-ile :) You're just an elf of the Malledhrim

It's like saying the "US Army"...you cant be an Army-an. You can be a member of the Army, which is what I always assumed when I saw "Galadhrim" or "Malledhrim" underneath an NPC's name....that was their allegiance or affiliation, the "member of..." is implied, just like the dwarves in Moria have "Iron Garrison Guards", though that individual dwarf does not constitute the entirety of the Iron Garrison Guards himself :)

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Indeed, it should be noted that Malledhrim is Mallen + Rim, th -n mutates to -dh before r- .

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Originally Posted by Berephon

Indeed, it should be noted that Malledhrim is Mallen + Rim, th -n mutates to -dh before r- .

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...and except after C?:rolleyes:

Speaking as a Welshman myself, who is at once both happy to see so much Welsh and pseudo-Welsh throughout Enedwaith and now Dunland and yet becoming more and more confused as to who the quest givers are talking about (my main is named "Brenin"), can I ask if the NPC name "Lhucu" is at all a reference to the Wenglish expression "look you"?

(I'm assuming the "Lh" is a way of helping people understand the fricative "Ll", I'm loving the "Lhan" motif, I feel like I'm running around the South Wales valleys :)