LotRO not working on new dungeons, has no plans to merge servers from massively.joystiq.com

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

I am certainly not questioning Valve or the accuracy of the statistics themselves. Re-read my comment. I am saying that Steam figures alone are only part of the picture of how LotRO is doing, and only a very, very small part. That is why it is laughable to take Steam statistics and try to paint any kind of picture using them. It's as laughable as using GLFF populations.

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Neither of those is 'laughable', even if somewhat inaccurate. The biggest piece of this inaccuracy comes from the fact that it is not known what % of these are from the total, i.e. absolute value numbers are hard to be derived. But nobody is claiming (nor aiming at) the opposite. This whole conversation is about trends. It has nothing to do with the size of the observed data, only with how representative it is. It probably isn't very much, on any given level. But you take a look at one graph here, another there, some Steam charts and... the puzzle pieces start to overlap, actually. Any company can decide what info to share and what not, but some things really can't stay hidden.

It is often said here that (for example) few people use GLLF and therefore it is not a representative measure. There is no such rule. It is not accurate for total amounts and probably differing among the servers, that's for sure. Whether it is representative or not is arguable. But it doesn't have to be extremely representative. Again, this is not about accuracy or ultimate data completeness.

I'm deviating from what I wanted to tell you...
As mentioned above, if the point is 'Have fun' - you have a valid argument. Suggesting to the people interested in the game to ignore 'some graphs' and just play for as long as they like it - you have a valid argument. Yes, it would be a bit of a useless effort because people's opinion will never result from seeing some graphs anyway, but still you are on a safe ground.

Starting to play by the 'graph rules' - willingly and, say, in full conscious :) - and trying to put an opposite meaning to the information there is where you loose the ground. And I don't see a reason for you to push in this direction - you have another, very valid, point.

I know for myself that my opinion on the game and the choice to play it or not have zero to do with some graphs. I have to be ######## [OK, should I say 'silly' or something...] in order to allow graphs, forum threads and official reviews to form my opinion on a game (or a book, movie, etc.). The opinion is formed by other means (mostly actual play) and the decision to play or not is the result of that opinion. As are those graphs. They are the result, that's the whole point here.
Now, I know you are not claiming otherwsie, sorry if this sounds as if I'm 'teaching and preaching' (gosh I don't want to sound like that other forum user). It is only to suggest you that you'll be better off sticking to the good logic of 'Simply have fun, guys'. This is never wrong and you yourself should ride the tide full speed as long as you like the game. Honestly, don't go into numbers and trends because you won't like it, with a tendency to get scared. Suffice to say that those who should be scared are already scared or at least I hope they are, so that they can make some changes.

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Originally Posted by Danchir

Neither of those is 'laughable', even if somewhat inaccurate. The biggest piece of this inaccuracy comes from the fact that it is not known what % of these are from the total, i.e. absolute value numbers are hard to be derived. But nobody is claiming (nor aiming at) the opposite. This whole conversation is about trends. It has nothing to do with the size of the observed data, only with how representative it is. It probably isn't very much, on any given level. But you take a look at one graph here, another there, some Steam charts and... the puzzle pieces start to overlap, actually. Any company can decide what info to share and what not, but some things really can't stay hidden.

It is often said here that (for example) few people use GLLF and therefore it is not a representative measure. There is no such rule. It is not accurate for total amounts and probably differing among the servers, that's for sure. Whether it is representative or not is arguable. But it doesn't have to be extremely representative. Again, this is not about accuracy or ultimate data completeness.

I'm deviating from what I wanted to tell you...
As mentioned above, if the point is 'Have fun' - you have a valid argument. Suggesting to the people interested in the game to ignore 'some graphs' and just play for as long as they like it - you have a valid argument. Yes, it would be a bit of a useless effort because people's opinion will never result from seeing some graphs anyway, but still you are on a safe ground.

Starting to play by the 'graph rules' - willingly and, say, in full conscious :) - and trying to put an opposite meaning to the information there is where you loose the ground. And I don't see a reason for you to push in this direction - you have another, very valid, point.

I know for myself that my opinion on the game and the choice to play it or not have zero to do with some graphs. I have to be ######## [OK, should I say 'silly' or something...] in order to allow graphs, forum threads and official reviews to form my opinion on a game (or a book, movie, etc.). The opinion is formed by other means (mostly actual play) and the decision to play or not is the result of that opinion. As are those graphs. They are the result, that's the whole point here.
Now, I know you are not claiming otherwsie, sorry if this sounds as if I'm 'teaching and preaching' (gosh I don't want to sound like that other forum user). It is only to suggest you that you'll be better off sticking to the good logic of 'Simply have fun, guys'. This is never wrong and you yourself should ride the tide full speed as long as you like the game. Honestly, don't go into numbers and trends because you won't like it, with a tendency to get scared. Suffice to say that those who should be scared are already scared or at least I hope they are, so that they can make some changes.

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Listen, the Steam stats are NOT LotRO stats, they are Steam stats. And Steam is a notoriously fickle community of gamers, who have thousands of other options at their fingertips at any given time, etc. etc. Steam is a microclimate that is subject to entirely its own trends and patterns that have no connection at all to any particular game. For anyone to claim Steam logins can tell anything even remotely resembling an accurate story of what is happening with LotRO is just utter madness.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Listen, the Steam stats are NOT LotRO stats, they are Steam stats. And Steam is a notoriously fickle community of gamers, who have thousands of other options at their fingertips at any given time, etc. etc. Steam is a microclimate that is subject to entirely its own trends and patterns that have no connection at all to any particular game. For anyone to claim Steam logins can tell anything even remotely resembling an accurate story of what is happening with LotRO is just utter madness.

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These are lotro stats and they show exactly the same trends as steam
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/yearsall.html
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/plot-cool-mean-ytd2013.html

steam graphs may be a bit weak on their own but combined with the log in graphs that show identical trends they become quite reliable

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

These are lotro stats and they show exactly the same trends as steam
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/yearsall.html
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/plot-cool-mean-ytd2013.html

steam graphs may be a bit weak on their own but combined with the log in graphs that show identical trends they become quite reliable

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Anyone can draw a graph. I believe I've seen that one before. What is the source data? I don't see any notations on that page that tells us.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Steam is a microclimate that is subject to entirely its own trends and patterns that have no connection at all to any particular game.

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I never attribute Steam or Origin to MMO's per se. I would think the majority of those users play Eclectic FPS,Survival Horror/rpg type games, imho.

The last time I even Had Steam installed on my computer was for the TF2 launch. And that was the Only game I ever used Steam/ or logged into Steam for. Since then I have not had Steam installed for a few years.

So, chalk me up to a non-steam user that plays Lotro but is not represented on Steam graphs. Am I the minority here? I don't count?

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

I never attribute Steam or Origin to MMO's per se. I would think the majority of those users play Eclectic FPS,Survival Horror/rpg type games, imho.

The last time I even Had Steam installed on my computer was for the TF2 launch. And that was the Only game I ever used Steam/ or logged into Steam for. Since then I have not had Steam installed for a few years.

So, chalk me up to a non-steam user that plays Lotro but is not represented on Steam graphs. Am I the minority here? I don't count?

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I have lots of games on Steam. Lotro is not one of them, I have always just used the regular version.

People are focusing too much on 'this Steam graph' or 'that other graph' or whatever, and are building arguments in one direction or the other based on this focus.
I'm suggesting no such thing here, so please stop inventing 'theses' so that you can push forward your 'counter-theses'.

Neither it is so straightforward to point a finger at something and get the answer, nor it is necessary to have some uber accuracy in order to know what happens in general. Look around for a bit and do the thinking, it's not piece of cake but it's not rocket science either. That is if you insist on having such info at all. Not insisting is just as fine.

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Originally Posted by mjk47

Apparently the glass half-full folks wish to keep up the flow of negative interpretation.

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You keep using that term. I do not think that it means what you think it means. :p

i didn't need a graph or two to see the resulting population loss that has happened between RoR and HD. i only needed to log in. it may not be as easily discerned on larger servers like Landroval or Brandywine but on the smaller servers it is very much highlighted. entire kinships vanish and the moors become empty at times. usually a bunch of people come back during the release of an expansion and this time not as many as usual did. my kin stayed dead upon the HD release and after 2 weeks i canceled my sub and haven't logged in since. my gf still plays and followed the growing trend for many pvpers on the smaller servers to try the transfer route in hopes of greener pastures. this is prolly very common on smaller servers.

and that was just HD's aftermath. add to this no expansion this year, no challenging content currently in game or seemingly on the horizon, and what seems like n attempt to entice vips from canceling with free content and i think numbers are only gonna continue to steadily decline and maybe even plummet if the updates prove little more then a few days worth or quests and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Frisco

You keep using that term. I do not think that it means what you think it means. :p

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You are indeed right. I did, of course, mean glass-half empty! Must remember to engage brain before exercising fingers on the keyboard.

Of course, a much better interpretation is:

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There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who, when presented with a glass that is exactly half full, say:this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty.The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say:What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!

-- (Terry Pratchett, The Truth)

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Originally Posted by mjk47

You are indeed right. I did, of course, mean glass-half empty! Must remember to engage brain before exercising fingers on the keyboard.

Of course, a much better interpretation is:

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I think that we can all agree, though, that given the choice, if it's something we enjoy, a full glass is preferable to a half. That's the only beef I have with Turbine. I suppose I could be an optimist and be happy with my half glass, but I still remember when they gave us full glasses. :p If I were starting from nothing and then given a half, I'd be ecstatic.

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

These are lotro stats and they show exactly the same trends as steam
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/yearsall.html
http://wavehh.dyndns.org/lo/plot-cool-mean-ytd2013.html

steam graphs may be a bit weak on their own but combined with the log in graphs that show identical trends they become quite reliable

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Did you consider fixing memory leaks? They created a lot of logins :D

These trends are not similar with this (though differ not so much):
http://www.similarweb.com/website/lotro.com

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Originally Posted by Wanderv

Did you consider fixing memory leaks? They created a lot of logins :D

These trends are not similar with this (though differ not so much):
http://www.similarweb.com/website/lotro.com

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not really as they are numbers for the forum, not the game. And even then compare them to riftgame.com , swtor.com, guildwars2.com and eveonline.com and it doesnt look good, the only one that has less visits than lotro is rift by .1 million and rift is rising faster, even marvelheroes.com has almost as twice as many hits as lotro.com

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Originally Posted by vodou

i didn't need a graph or two to see the resulting population loss that has happened between RoR and HD. i only needed to log in. it may not be as easily discerned on larger servers like Landroval or Brandywine but on the smaller servers it is very much highlighted. entire kinships vanish and the moors become empty at times. usually a bunch of people come back during the release of an expansion and this time not as many as usual did. my kin stayed dead upon the HD release and after 2 weeks i canceled my sub and haven't logged in since. my gf still plays and followed the growing trend for many pvpers on the smaller servers to try the transfer route in hopes of greener pastures. this is prolly very common on smaller servers.

and that was just HD's aftermath. add to this no expansion this year, no challenging content currently in game or seemingly on the horizon, and what seems like n attempt to entice vips from canceling with free content and i think numbers are only gonna continue to steadily decline and maybe even plummet if the updates prove little more then a few days worth or quests and nothing else.

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Some people are just in denial maybe they keep looking at it optimistically. If it was really a success how come they have no plans releasing a major expansion like they used to? Don't give me that excuse of "yeah we are fixing the game", but they released the game in it's current condition and fixing it for a "whole year" seems a little odd.

It is a given that with the franchise Lord Of The Rings and its successful movie releases should that boost the popularity of LOTRO.

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

I never attribute Steam or Origin to MMO's per se. I would think the majority of those users play Eclectic FPS,Survival Horror/rpg type games, imho.

The last time I even Had Steam installed on my computer was for the TF2 launch. And that was the Only game I ever used Steam/ or logged into Steam for. Since then I have not had Steam installed for a few years.

So, chalk me up to a non-steam user that plays Lotro but is not represented on Steam graphs. Am I the minority here? I don't count?

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http://store.steampowered.com/stats/?l=english

A lot of games in that list are RPGs, MMORPGs. For a pool of 7 milllion it shows what the trend and popularity of each games. Also it show times played.

About the minority.... yeah we all are.

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Originally Posted by Whatevaplz

About the minority.... yeah we all are.

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Not sure what this means,..

Does it mean that more people use Steam to play Lotro than use the normal Turbine launcher?

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Originally Posted by mjk47

Of course, a much better interpretation is:

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There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world....
-- (Terry Pratchett, The Truth)

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*** Temporary Derail Alert ***

There are two kinds of people in this world, and I hate them.
-- Garfield the Cat

There are two kinds of people in this world, those who can extrapolate from incomplete information
-- Anonymous Philosopher

*** Derail Contained, Return to Thread ***

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Originally Posted by bobbylobs

not really as they are numbers for the forum, not the game. And even then compare them to riftgame.com , swtor.com, guildwars2.com and eveonline.com and it doesnt look good, the only one that has less visits than lotro is rift by .1 million and rift is rising faster, even marvelheroes.com has almost as twice as many hits as lotro.com

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These numbers are not for the forum but for the whole site. Also you forgot about Russian Lotro site: http://www.similarweb.com/website/lotro-russia.com
So in sum Lotro sites have 3kk monthly visits. It's like site of EVE which no one calls 'dying'. SWTOR and GW2 are more popular than Lotro no doubt. Though SWTOR site has too much numbers and too high share of traffic generating sites among referring sites. It seems EA makes fake visits, lol. Oh EA, you are wonderful as always. :D

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Originally Posted by Wanderv

Oh EA, you are wonderful as always. :D

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Aren't they, though? LOL

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

Not sure what this means,..

Does it mean that more people use Steam to play Lotro than use the normal Turbine launcher?

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I don't know what the commenter meant by that, but very few people use Steam to access LotRO. Most use the Turbine launcher.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Aren't they, though? LOL



I don't know what the commenter meant by that, but very few people use Steam to access LotRO. Most use the Turbine launcher.

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Good old Pando Media Booster was the single biggest reasons for people going over to Steam, IMO of course. For people new to LOTRO, Steam is an existing and well known market place for getting games. I don't see why it would not be popular.

Of course, it's impossible to validate numbers as a % of total active accounts.

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Originally Posted by Whatevaplz

...how come they have no plans releasing a major expansion like they used to?

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• Siege of Mirkwood was released in December of 2009
• Rise of Isengard was released in September of 2011

That was 22 months between major expansions. Just sayin'... this isn't the first time LOTRO has had a year without a major expansion.

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Originally Posted by RagTop1

• Siege of Mirkwood was released in December of 2009
• Rise of Isengard was released in September of 2011

That was 22 months between major expansions. Just sayin'... this isn't the first time LOTRO has had a year without a major expansion.

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I am certain it was a big transitional phase for Turbine, Codemaster, WB that explains the major expansion delays.

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

Not sure what this means,..

Does it mean that more people use Steam to play Lotro than use the normal Turbine launcher?

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Wait are you saying that majority that stayed in this game are not using Steam and can't be represented by an actual number. But the ones that do partially represent an overall health of the game in a different venue is not applicable?

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Originally Posted by Whatevaplz

Wait are you saying that majority that stayed in this game are not using Steam and can't be represented by an actual number. But the ones that do partially represent an overall health of the game in a different venue is not applicable?

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I asked if I was in the minority, since I don't use Steam. You replied, yes,..we all are,..( which could mean that you don't use Steam either?)

So I am not 'saying',.I am asking,..
"Does it mean that more people use Steam to play Lotro than use the normal Turbine launcher?"

Sorry if I was unclear. If that information is not available,..that's fine too. Thought maybe you knew if an alternative graph existed.

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Originally Posted by Beschutzer

I asked if I was in the minority, since I don't use Steam. You replied, yes,..we all are,..( which could mean that you don't use Steam either?)

So I am not 'saying',.I am asking,..
"Does it mean that more people use Steam to play Lotro than use the normal Turbine launcher?"

Sorry if I was unclear. If that information is not available,..that's fine too. Thought maybe you knew if an alternative graph existed.

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For a pool of 7 million players in Steam and the MMO we seem to like are in the bottom... that is why i'd say we all are. Sorry probably reading a different post lol.

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Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes

For people new to LOTRO, Steam is an existing and well known market place for getting games. I don't see why it would not be popular.

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Maybe for those already using Steam. But for anyone else, it just adds another unnecessary step to accessing the game, one it isn't likely they'd take.

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Originally Posted by Whatevaplz

For a pool of 7 million players in Steam and the MMO we seem to like are in the bottom... that is why i'd say we all are.

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Exactly why I think Steam is a poor measure. Clearly there are many more people who login to MMOs directly than there are who access via Steam.

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Originally Posted by frickinmuck

Maybe for those already using Steam. But for anyone else, it just adds another unnecessary step to accessing the game, one it isn't likely they'd take.

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Steam is an established market place. Like ITunes it is synonymous with downloading games from the internet.

Compare that against downloading it using an unreliable and unknown mechanism? Steam is just more reliable & transparent.

However, if we were talking about Rift, WoW, SWTOR, Planetside 2, Age of Conan etc I would agree with you, but Turbine's distribution of LOTRO (as against Codemasters) has always used unreliable download mechanisms as far as I can remember. Which is why if I needed to do a new download of LOTRO I would go to steam as my point of preference. I used steam to download DDO for exactly the same reasons.