Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

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Originally Posted by Asperity

Because people don't establish DPS expectations universally. As time progresses from the time the content is first seen, people develop expectations based on the fight's mechanics and how the classes interact with those mechanics. Fights like Saurfang, where ranged DPS has to kite blood beasts, are not expected to top the meters. Fights like Dreamwalker, where melee is constantly moving to targets, most melee is expected to be towards the bottom.

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That was not true in WoW. People looked at the meters - period. This is especially true when looking at people in the same class.

Over time, people stopped doing the non-dps (or non-heal) skills since they were "called out" if they were lower on the meter. No one debuffed, cleared debuffs, etc.

In LOTRO a RK who removes corruption, casts Do Not Fall to XXX, etc. will be lower on the meter than one who DPSes exclusively. If the RK who exclusively DPSes is praised because of his high DPS, the better RK (who uses all of his skills) will have an incentive to only DPS as well. Meters cause bad play.

Hopefully Turbine will prohibit group meters, and/or people won't create them for greater good of the game and its players.

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Originally Posted by Bradd

That was not true in WoW. People looked at the meters - period. This is especially true when looking at people in the same class.

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When's the last time you played WoW? That is exactly how it is now.

Having also played WoW, I can say emphatically that I would hate to see any type of damage/heal meters. Mainly because I stopped playing a game, and started playing a calculator. I like LOTRo because it does not foster this kind of mentality - it tries to foster a group participation mentality. Once meters are introduced, people will complain in groups that someones DPS is not on 'par'. Classes will complain that they are being left out of groups because they can't 'dps' like other classes. Rivalry will become predominant, rather than working together. People will start advertising themselves in LFF as *120 Rad, 1000 dps *insert class here* players*.

Thanks, but no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Asperity

When's the last time you played WoW? That is exactly how it is now.

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From the people posting here, it seems you may be mistaken. People in WoW play to do well on the meters - even if it hurts the team. Pallies don't cleanse, Priests use group heals even if it is not efficient, etc.

Just like the RK example I used above, with group meters, bad play is glorified and good play is denegrated.

Yeah, the dps meter showed up in EQ2, and everything became comparing dps egos.............. every fight ended with a commentary on who did the big dps or who didn't. The actual encounter results (and the contributions of characters who focased upon group support actions) became an afterthought. I'd rather that didn't happen in LOTR.

Asperity : Im only calling you out because you made a specific point I'd like to address. There is no meanness intended. :)

In certain end game raiding guilds what you are explaining is what one would reasonably expect. If a dps class is assisting the group, their dps will suffer. Kiters' dps will suffer.

Having been up to ICC (not clearing as I quit before then), I can truthfully say that regardless of what reason would dictate-people are still people. And people can be very unreasonable.

My friend *is* in an endgame guild, and even while I've watched him take down the LK, he's constantly harping on damage meters for ALL fights. He's a hunter sometimes, and sometimes a pally tank/healer. It depends on what is needed.

It's enlightening to hear how he talks about his fellow players in his guild. How he measures them by their dps only. And it is not just him. Everyone in his guild is like that.

People in my guild were becoming like that too. Leaving out guildmates that did not 'make the cut' as it were.

Now what does this have to do with your point that reasonably one would expect dps to fluctuate depending on the fights?
Merely that in practice, theory often goes out the window.

If your guild was not like this-my hats off to you! You had found a truly unique and beautiful thing.

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Originally Posted by Bradd

From the people posting here, it seems you may be mistaken. People in WoW play to do well on the meters - even if it hurts the team. Pallies don't cleanse, Priests use group heals even if it is not efficient, etc.

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Or perhaps, they're just like you and posting anecdotes from WoW Classic/TBC as their justification without any recent WotLK experience. I guess I'll go back and start asking everyone when they last played WoW. I still maintain a subscription. I've raided in the last 30 days. You clearly haven't.

There are only two fights where people play to the meters, and that's because those fight mechanics make it a pure dps race: Festergut and Blood Queen. Blood Queen is a gimmick fight though, as the first person to get bitten will almost always be the top DPS, especially if it's a rogue or fury warrior.

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Originally Posted by darkannex

Having also played WoW, I can say emphatically that I would hate to see any type of damage/heal meters. Mainly because I stopped playing a game, and started playing a calculator. I like LOTRo because it does not foster this kind of mentality - it tries to foster a group participation mentality. Once meters are introduced, people will complain in groups that someones DPS is not on 'par'. Classes will complain that they are being left out of groups because they can't 'dps' like other classes. Rivalry will become predominant, rather than working together. People will start advertising themselves in LFF as *120 Rad, 1000 dps *insert class here* players*.

Thanks, but no thanks.

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Agreed, it was one of the several reasons I left WoW actually. People started to forget how to play well in a group... far too much focus was put on a single aspect.

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Originally Posted by darkannex

Asperity : Im only calling you out because you made a specific point I'd like to address. There is no meanness intended. :)

In certain end game raiding guilds what you are explaining is what one would reasonably expect. If a dps class is assisting the group, their dps will suffer. Kiters' dps will suffer.

Having been up to ICC (not clearing as I quit before then), I can truthfully say that regardless of what reason would dictate-people are still people. And people can be very unreasonable.

My friend *is* in an endgame guild, and even while I've watched him take down the LK, he's constantly harping on damage meters for ALL fights. He's a hunter sometimes, and sometimes a pally tank/healer. It depends on what is needed.

It's enlightening to hear how he talks about his fellow players in his guild. How he measures them by their dps only. And it is not just him. Everyone in his guild is like that.

People in my guild were becoming like that too. Leaving out guildmates that did not 'make the cut' as it were.

Now what does this have to do with your point that reasonably one would expect dps to fluctuate depending on the fights? Merely that in practice, theory often goes out the window.

If your guild was not like this-my hats off to you! You had found a truly unique and beautiful thing.

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Thank you for this recent evidence that the situation remains unchanged.

In my honest opinion, if one expects people to act logically and reasonably, you will invariably be disappointed. People will play for the big numbers, and judge others by their big numbers, even if it is not the best way to play. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Asperity

Because people don't establish DPS expectations universally. As time progresses from the time the content is first seen, people develop expectations based on the fight's mechanics and how the classes interact with those mechanics. Fights like Saurfang, where ranged DPS has to kite blood beasts, are not expected to top the meters. Fights like Dreamwalker, where melee is constantly moving to targets, most melee is expected to be towards the bottom.

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Perhaps you are in a different kind of guild. I know the guild I was in was pretty forgiving. But they weren't at all about hardcore raiding, they were about casual raiding with friends. That made it a lot easier for me as a Ret Pally to actually raid.

In any group however that is serious about progression or a quick clear, you are judged by meters and scores. And more than that, to use the scenario you used above, if there's a fight that's tough on melee dps they'll simply kick melee dps and replace them with ranged dps for that fight and vice versa. In WoW, it's all about the absolute best makeup for the given raid or boss fight. Anyone who is a liability is quickly sacrificed.

Unless, as I said, you happen to be in a guild that is about more than raiding. But those are few and far between.

I enjoy having the ability to pick and choose addons such as DPS or Gearscore for that matter. I never use it as a tool to single out other players. I use it to access my own skill and these tools have helped me significantly in the past. As much as I'm enjoying my stay in WoW right now, I don't like how these tools are being used to single out and oftentimes belittle other players. But for me personally, I love being able to tweak my rotations and become a better player in the process. The DPS addon that I use is fantastic and has really helped me with my DPS class.

I do pray that the LoTR community stays positive as it has in the past and doesn't stoop to what I've seen so often in the WoW community. The tools aren't to blame, it is the people using them.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy

The game itself does scoring, try the 'instance finder' (or whatever it is) you'll see you'll be locked out of the end-game content if your gear is too low, clearly the game itself is 'scoring' your gear.

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I know that. And I know that some put on lower score gear to make sure they didn't get into a certain instance that required higher score gear, and then swapped back into their higher score gear. Human beings will always find a loophole and most will exploit it.

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Originally Posted by cynyck

Human beings will always find a loophole and most will exploit it.

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That is why people refuse to use their skills that don't show up on the meters and focus solely on skills that do - even if it hurts the team.

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Originally Posted by FTosca

I enjoy having the ability to pick and choose addons such as DPS or Gearscore for that matter. I never use it as a tool to single out other players. I use it to access my own skill and these tools have helped me significantly in the past. As much as I'm enjoying my stay in WoW right now, I don't like how these tools are being used to single out and oftentimes belittle other players. But for me personally, I love being able to tweak my rotations and become a better player in the process. The DPS addon that I use is fantastic and has really helped me with my DPS class.

I do pray that the LoTR community stays positive as it has in the past and doesn't stoop to what I've seen so often in the WoW community. The tools aren't to blame, it is the people using them.

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You can't change human nature. The only way to keep the tools from being abused is to control them.

If people want to merely tweak their own rotation or gear, they can use some of the tools already present in LOTRO. There is no reason to allow implementation of group meters.

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Originally Posted by Asperity

Or perhaps, they're just like you and posting anecdotes from WoW Classic/TBC as their justification without any recent WotLK experience. I guess I'll go back and start asking everyone when they last played WoW. I still maintain a subscription. I've raided in the last 30 days. You clearly haven't.

There are only two fights where people play to the meters, and that's because those fight mechanics make it a pure dps race: Festergut and Blood Queen. Blood Queen is a gimmick fight though, as the first person to get bitten will almost always be the top DPS, especially if it's a rogue or fury warrior.

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I never raided ICC, my last two raids before I left WoW were Ulduar (completed) and ToC (not completed made it to the "PVP" fight). And up to that moment, even in ToC and how the mechanics work... people still were looking at meters.

Now the raid leaders knew that there were more to fights than just meters, and they were not the ones calling out people on low DPS. Actually, as someone said before, it was the players referring to guildmates in derogatory and mean ways based solely on DPS meters.

Maybe WoW changed in the last 4 months since I cancelled my account.

Note, even people like me, who are strongly in favor of dps and threat meters, are not in favor of gearscore. Nobody is in favor of gearscore that I can see. Meters are useful tools, gearscore is a contrived number that doesn't take class specializations into account. It's a completely useless addon pretty much only used by PuGs because it's faster than manually inspecting each person and knowing enough about every class and their mechanics and gear to make a judgement when you do inspect. Radiance pretty much negates the need for any gear score anyway.. you already have 1 arbitrary number you have to meet to be effective in the raid.. who needs two such contrived numbers?

Before DPS is attacked as another "arbitrary contrived number" or anything like that.. DPS is, if looked at correctly (IE most fights it's not really that important other than picking out extreme deadweight cases), is a measurement of activity level and can be (in fights where they fulfill no secondary role) a measurement of effectiveness of their playstyle.

Unless Turbine makes the mistake of making a lot of "DPS race" mechanics, dps meters won't blow out of proportion to where you need a certain arbitrary dps of 600+ or whatever to be effective.

So best thing to do is to not have a bunch of DPS race fights. Only a few bosses have any dps race mechanic... Turtle.. Mistress (and that mechanic is rather minor).. Lieutenent (only for phase 1)

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Originally Posted by Devildoc

Unless Turbine makes the mistake of making a lot of "DPS race" mechanics, dps meters won't blow out of proportion to where you need a certain arbitrary dps of 600+ or whatever to be effective.

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Whether or not there are dps race mechanics, a lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). You want the meters to judge people, you have stated so in this thread. Others have indicated they want to weed out the "fails" with the meters. Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

People have posted in this thread numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. They lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. The negatives far outweigh the positives.

IHO, it would be a huge mistake for Turbine to allow group dps meters. It has the potential to ruin raiding for a lot of people. If someone developes one, and they cause the same problems they have in the past - a lot of people won't be singing their praises.

sorry i haven't really been following the thread i'm not in favore of dps meters or gear scoring. But if the reason some people are backing the DPS meter is to help them tweek rotaions then would there be some way to allow a DPS meter for people to play with (not a group DPS meter a solo DPS meter) and only allow it when playing solo and disabling it when grouped that way it won't come into grouping aspect at all and it will allow people to tweak their rotations. I know this could end up leading to "hey whats your highest dps score?" "really man mines way higher you should leave group" but the probablility will be lower since most people would realize anyone who is pumping out huge numbers isn't factoring in other skills into their test like throwing a stun/debuff/heal/or buff.

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Originally Posted by Bradd

Whether or not there are dps race mechanics, a lot of people will judge people based on what they do on the meter (even though it is not an accurate measure of contribution to the raid). You want the meters to judge people, you have stated so in this thread. Others have indicated they want to weed out the "fails" with the meters. Human nature being what it is, people will blow the meter results out of proportion - it has happened time and time again.

People have posted in this thread numerous examples of how the meters can negatively affect raiding. They lead to people denegrating other players. They lead to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart. The negatives far outweigh the positives.

IHO, it would be a huge mistake for Turbine to allow group dps meters. It has the potential to ruin raiding for a lot of people. If someone developes one, and they cause the same problems they have in the past - a lot of people won't be singing their praises.

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There's a difference. If there's no DPS race mechanics, then eliminating the "fails" pretty much means shaping up or shipping out the people who just come on autofollow and then afk during the boss fight, or pretty much just stand there autoattacking while they watch youtube videos and facebook or text. But with a lack of DPS race boss mechanics, you can have non optimal dps in your group and still manage to do it. Just as long as everyone's actively participating who cares if there's 1 hunter who's a little below all the rest. As long as you're actively trying, it doesn't really matter if you minmax in that situation.

However when you DO have DPS race boss mechanics, you have to be tighter on optimizing your dps, that's where a difference of 100 dps between 1 hunter and another becomes a problem you need to solve. That's where you start finding DPS classes being stacked on 1 class and dismissing members from other classes that can't contribute as much dps, IE Lieutenent of Dol Guldur, groups learning the fight ditch champions to bring in more hunters unless the champion is tanking or ire kiting in hard mode. They do that without meters even because there is a DPS race component and champion's are not effective dps'ers for phase 1 chasing after the fellbeast and having to hit and run to avoid tail swipes.

DPS becomes much more strict when there's a specific reason to make a fight go faster.

Devildoc (and others supportive of the dps meter). I understand that you enjoy the dps meter in other gaming systems. I believe you when you say that it makes you (and your raid partners/groups) better. What you will not address is the fact that the overwhelming majority of raid groups (and often in even simple quest groupings) do NOT use the dps meter in a possitive fashion. You want your dps meter........... you don't care about those of us who would like to keep the negative effects of the dps meter out of our gaming experience.

And Turbine (are you there Turbine? :)............ when the game degrades into a dps bragging fest, you lose. Players get bored with comparing and bragging about their dps ratings. Group play (with the rare exception of Devildoc's groupings) degrades, frustration builds, players insult each other, general social behavior errodes............. players quit.

But hey, WOW does it, so it must be right? Think ahead, be proactive, do not deploy the dps meters.

"Playing the Meter vs Playing Smart"

This sentence means a player, that knows better, is purposefully ignoring proper play in order to have a higher score.

This also infers the raid leader is aware or unaware this is occurring.

If others players are doing this, the result is the following:

1: DPS goes up w/o issue and the raid completes (arguably faster.)
2: wipe, b/c someone was DPS'ing instead of <insert non-DPS thing here that was ignored>

If 1, does it matter? By the own admission of others in the thread "MOB is dead". It's dead. If 2, and the raid leader doesn't address it, then, I conclude the raid leader isn't a very good raid leader.

We'll come back to that in a second.

If YOU are not doing this (b/c you're an informed player, as I assume most people reading/contributing to this thread also are), but are being held accountable by the raid leader (in a non-DPS role) for not doing DPS, then the following two conclusions are possible:

1: You actually could be contributing more, but are not
2: The raid leader doesn't know the finesse needed to execute your job in this instance, and is holding you accountable for his/her failure.

If it's not 1 (again, you are an informed player) than I propose the issue is the second.

As you can see, the raid leader plays a role in both of these situations.

So I ask the question:

Would you play under an uninformed raid leader *WITHOUT* the meters?

I ask the question here, b/c it sounds to me like there's not just a problem w/ jerk PLAYERS, there's a problem w/ jerk LEADERS as well. Haven't we already established that jerks w/ meters are just better informed jerks?





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I get why people don't want the meters. I want them more than I don't want them, b/c the negatives won't impact me as much. If it's that much of an issue for other players, than Turbine shouldn't implement them. I'll still run Cstats, and keep following Asperity's posts. ;)

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Originally Posted by kerryak

"Playing the Meter vs Playing Smart"

This sentence means a player, that knows better, is purposefully ignoring proper play in order to have a higher score.

This also infers the raid leader is aware or unaware this is occurring.

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Very few raid leaders know the intricacies of every class. There have been numerous examples posted here of people who play to the meters instead of playing smart - because of raid leaders who don't know every class, other players who call people out because of the meters, etc.

Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Bradd

Very few raid leaders know the intricacies of every class. There have been numerous examples posted here of people who play to the meters instead of playing smart - because of raid leaders who don't know every class, other players who call people out because of the meters, etc.

Human nature is what it is. People want the big numbers and judge people based on the big numbers. Comparing epeen is a time honored tradition in MMOs.

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If this was your kin, or static raid, wouldn't you want to educate your raid leader?



Again - I can understand the fear of the jerk PUG leader, and why you wouldn't care to bother correcting one. But I don't join kins w/ leaders that are uninformed and don't listen (well, correction - I don't STAY in kins w/ leaders that are uninformed and don't listen), and I certainly listen to my players in kins I run/lead. I don't claim to know everything either, I might have played every job to a certain point, but I haven't done Raid X on every job. ;)

Well I certainly want threat meters a lot more than I want DPS meters. Like I said it's impossible for me to determine a tank's threat vs my threat unless the tank is giving a play by play on his misses/resists.

Champ threat management being what it is (ire once a minute and when that's down if you gain threat your only threat management skill is to stand there with your thumb up your rear), we have to walk a fine line between maximizing dps, and staying second highest threat under the tank without pulling. It can literally take a missed shield reactive skill that makes the difference. Not to mention, having never played a guardian, I don't know the animations for every skill, so a threat meter would be immensely helpful to me.

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Originally Posted by -Sylvan-Shadow-

It seems like it should have one, but it doesn't.

Would be a great help in raids and stuff...

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You are a Troll Right Sylvan? You are joking I am correct right? you have come from wow or crawled out from under some rock right? Lotro should have one? it would be a great help in raids? how many raids in lotro have you done? it would be a great help in "stuff"? whats "stuff"? you are a troll.