Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[Bradd]

As for the DPS data... that shouldn't be too hard. Simply piggyback it on the other fellowship member data already sent to clients, give people an option to allow it to be seen by others, and expose fellowship data in the plug-in API. Then fellowships/raids can use it as individuals permit, and LUA scripters will go off and make some cool ways to present and use it. It would be unavailable outside of a fellowship.

Khafar

My fear is that people will start requiring you to have these mods or not participate in raids. Then the option, is not really an option.

[Asperity]

My fear is that people will start requiring you to have these mods or not participate in raids. Then the option, is not really an option.

If they are requiring it, then you are playing with the wrong people. At that point, are you really losing out?

[tuor66]

The best moments I had in WoW was when we did raids without mods and without pre-written tactics, today its just boring, hence why I stopped playing it.

Likewise, some of the best fun I've had in LOTRO was when an instance didn't go exactly to plan and total chaos ensued , but you have to be playing with the right people. Players with the ability to laugh about it afterwards instead of treating it like a nuclear reactor that nearly blew. If you wanna walk the edge, be prepared to slip off once in a while

[Khafar]

If they are requiring it, then you are playing with the wrong people. At that point, are you really losing out?

Exactly. When I've been playing a character in Anonymous mode, I've occasionally (twice in 3 years) had some twit in a PUG demand that I turn it off so he could inspect my character. My response: "You're kidding, right? No? Bye".

Khafar

[Big_H]

To me its like forget the game, lets just go play with a calculator to achieve the same goal.

I made mine spell 'boobies'

For every example of when a group meter would be beneficial, there are several where it would be detrimental and encourage bad play. As someone who has played with a raiding guild that used meters on a regular basis, I can tell you unequivocally that the negatives far ourweigh the positives.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well. If these meters could only be used for good (and they can provide some useful information for the betterment of the player) I'd be all for them. But the opportunity to use them for evil is too great a risk for the limited benefits, IMO.

[-Sylvan-Shadow-]

Just as a random nitpick, the "deal with it" meme is a forced meme and unfunny. I understand the sentiment though.

lol forced meme, that's clever.

[DeathMongrel]

Unlike WOW and some other games, like-named mobs don't have individual ID's in the logs, so you can't distinguish between them. This makes them difficult if not impossible to parse...

Example:

A group might have two subgroups (3 people each) hitting two different mobs at the same time called, "ORC". Half the group shows major damage against "ORC", and 0 damage against another NPC named "ORC".

The other half of the group shows the same for the "other" ORC.

Because the logs only show the name, and no ID, parsing code cannot determine which is which. And in the final calculation, each person's damage looks half what it should be, because you can't make the determination. It also means when an ORC dies, all those calculations previous to the death have to be assumed to be one ORC. Then that further screws up calculations by possibly showing someone killing an ORC with one point left, and that lowers their DPS average.

So currently, given the state of the logs, parsing really only works for named mobs with unique names, where you know your group is only attacking one of them at a time.

I, and several other people, have written parsers, and about the best you can get is an idea of the general curve of damage, and over several runs, you can tell if you're hitting harder, or slacking off.

Also, there are no timestamps. While there have been creative solutions to writing copies of the log by watching them, there is a delay which doesn't match up against when things actually happened on the server, so calculations for dps will always be a bit off. Again, if you look at an entire fight, you can see the curve, but there's no direct correlation to who did what when--only who did what before/after someone/something else. Some people's timestamped logs will fluctuate between entries, some faster, some slower. This messes up the calculations as well as does the server/client latency of 2-3 seconds (when things actually happen, not when you see the client draw them happening--it's predictive to some degree).

So until they add IDs and timestamps (mentioned many times before the last 3 years) you can't get it from the log.

Maybe the LUA scripting will eventually get what we need (I haven't looked at it in depth enough), but if you can extract actions, their values, their time of occurence, and the source/destination uniquely, then it will be possible to build into the game. Without it, there won't be DPS meters (at least not real/accurate ones).

[Mineria]

you can tell if others are hitting harder, or slacking off.

Edited it to how the majority looks at working damage parsers.
It will add to much "eliteness" and micro management.
That is why some people would hate to see it brought into game.

Some wrote that "you can always choice", "you don't play with the correct people" etc...
Fact is that when such parsers are enrolled into game, the majority will take them in use for "easy" instancing and require others to use these mods as well.
And that lady and gentlemen will spoil the game, since even "correct people" will use them and set the same requirements.
Same arguments where used when WoW still was Vanilla, try to check it out today.

[RingOfFire]

Not so easy - they don't want to open up server queries to the plug-in API, for a number of reasons. All of the current stuff in the API is only exposing what the client already knows: inventory, current effects on our character (so the client can put up the right icons), current morale and power, etc. That stuff is sent to the client whenever it changes, so it's always up to date. They asked us to help them make sure that we could not ask the server for information and get a reply because if everyone were making tons of queries, it would really hurt server performance. In fact, that could be used maliciously (in ways I'm not going to detail). Getting other people's information would mean server queries, and they're not supporting any of that.

The plug-in architecture is also designed so it cannot talk with external processes, cannot stream data to hard disk (where it could be picked up and coordinated by an outside app), etc. They really want it to be used to help show your character's information however you'd like to see it, to extend the UI in some ways (e.g. additional hotkey slots)... and that's it.

Khafar

(bolded for emphasis)

These are some good reasons why I have said that there is about a 0% chance of group DPS/threat meters coming to LOTRO. To function, such a plugin would have to access data stored on the server, or use ingame/external methods to communicate with other clients. Neither method is supported.

Unlike WOW and some other games, like-named mobs don't have individual ID's in the logs, so you can't distinguish between them. This makes them difficult if not impossible to parse...

Example:

A group might have two subgroups (3 people each) hitting two different mobs at the same time called, "ORC". Half the group shows major damage against "ORC", and 0 damage against another NPC named "ORC".

The other half of the group shows the same for the "other" ORC.

Because the logs only show the name, and no ID, parsing code cannot determine which is which. And in the final calculation, each person's damage looks half what it should be, because you can't make the determination. It also means when an ORC dies, all those calculations previous to the death have to be assumed to be one ORC. Then that further screws up calculations by possibly showing someone killing an ORC with one point left, and that lowers their DPS average.

So currently, given the state of the logs, parsing really only works for named mobs with unique names, where you know your group is only attacking one of them at a time.

I, and several other people, have written parsers, and about the best you can get is an idea of the general curve of damage, and over several runs, you can tell if you're hitting harder, or slacking off.

Also, there are no timestamps. While there have been creative solutions to writing copies of the log by watching them, there is a delay which doesn't match up against when things actually happened on the server, so calculations for dps will always be a bit off. Again, if you look at an entire fight, you can see the curve, but there's no direct correlation to who did what when--only who did what before/after someone/something else. Some people's timestamped logs will fluctuate between entries, some faster, some slower. This messes up the calculations as well as does the server/client latency of 2-3 seconds (when things actually happen, not when you see the client draw them happening--it's predictive to some degree).

So until they add IDs and timestamps (mentioned many times before the last 3 years) you can't get it from the log.

Maybe the LUA scripting will eventually get what we need (I haven't looked at it in depth enough), but if you can extract actions, their values, their time of occurence, and the source/destination uniquely, then it will be possible to build into the game. Without it, there won't be DPS meters (at least not real/accurate ones).

There you have it. Actual (unflawed) group DPS meters are effectively impossible right now, and likely permanently.

[Asperity]

There you have it. Actual (unflawed) group DPS meters are effectively impossible right now, and likely permanently.

Not really. He's pretty much wrong on every point he raised.

[Wu-Thunderkiss]

After a wipe it would be good to know if there is a fail champ/hunter/rk in the group.

I am so utterly glad you are on a different server than i.

Of course, if we WERE on the same server, and the meter existed, you'd get the boot for being a failguard around me and my burg, but that little gem will have to stay buried.

so just stay over there and keep that kind of attitude on your server mmkay?

[RingOfFire]

Not really. He's pretty much wrong on every point he raised.

Even if that is so, simply having testers make sure that Lua plugins cannot query the server for information says much about Turbine's stance on this. If they are actively discouraging such actions, then group DPS meters are pretty much impossible through ingame means because server queries are necessary for said meters.

DeathMongrel is right about the combat logs, however. That makes it nearly impossible to log group DPS through external means in any situation without unique mobs.

EDIT: If a group DPS meter were simply based off of how much damage one is doing (which can be done currently, I believe), that can potentially cause flawed data. That is why I say that it is nearly impossible in any situation without unique mobs.

[dgn-master]

Personal opinion only here, but, if i was playing with a member of the DPS police in a group i was in i would ask them politely to go and find a like-minded group to play in. As for my experience i would not want it ruined by anyone telling me i have to trait X class/virtue/race in order to hit the Y amount of damage when facing Z creature; IMO if i wanted a math lesson from another i would just go back to school and find a good teacher.

I play to have fun even if it means wiping occasionally.

[Rosvodiz]

Personal opinion only here, but, if i was playing with a member of the DPS police in a group i was in i would ask them politely to go and find a like-minded group to play in. As for my experience i would not want it ruined by anyone telling me i have to trait X class/virtue/race in order to hit the Y amount of damage when facing Z creature; IMO if i wanted a math lesson from another i would just go back to school and find a good teacher.

I play to have fun even if it means wiping occasionally.

This is the essence of what the LOTRO play-style should be about.

[Bradd]

This is the essence of what the LOTRO play-style should be about.

I agree. I hope turbine does everything it can to prevent these from happening, or people refrain from making them for the greater good.

[EvilTreerat]

Another reason why a dps meter is useless in any grouping situation.

Two characters in the same Naxxaramas raid that is at Patchwerk (the ultimate target dummy). One a hunter standing 35 to 41 yards. The other a rogue at 3 to 5 yards. Latencies are within 20 milliseconds of the others. Both are using the same version of Recount which has been cleared and synchronized before the fight. Both start dps'ing at the same time. At the end of the fight the meters are compared and they show an average difference of 500 dps difference for the same character.

So we're supposed to trust a program that can't even agree with itself on the damage for the same fight, to determine if someone is "slacking"? No thanks. Sounds more to me like we have a failed tank and his buddies who want to deflect the blame for being less-than-competent by pointing to a third-party application of dubious value.

PS. The fight above was from a guild run. With roughly 20 copies of Recount running that fight I don't think any of them were within 10 dps of each other. That was the raid we stopped using it for anything beyond "are they on autofollow or not" duty.

[FyreBrand]

Another reason why a dps meter is useless in any grouping situation.

Two characters in the same Naxxaramas raid that is at Patchwerk (the ultimate target dummy). One a hunter standing 35 to 41 yards. The other a rogue at 3 to 5 yards. Latencies are within 20 milliseconds of the others. Both are using the same version of Recount which has been cleared and synchronized before the fight. Both start dps'ing at the same time. At the end of the fight the meters are compared and they show an average difference of 500 dps difference for the same character.

So we're supposed to trust a program that can't even agree with itself on the damage for the same fight, to determine if someone is "slacking"? No thanks. Sounds more to me like we have a failed tank and his buddies who want to deflect the blame for being less-than-competent by pointing to a third-party application of dubious value.

PS. The fight above was from a guild run. With roughly 20 copies of Recount running that fight I don't think any of them were within 10 dps of each other. That was the raid we stopped using it for anything beyond "are they on autofollow or not" duty.

This isn't WoW. There is no recount here.

Like I pointed out above we should learn from the design flaws in data acquisition from both WoW, EQ2, and other games.

If Turbine decides they want to implement more advanced data parsing they can do so without repeating the flaws of other games.

[Cellendil]

This isn't WoW. There is no recount here.

Like I pointed out above we should learn from the design flaws in data acquisition from both WoW, EQ2, and other games.

If Turbine decides they want to implement more advanced data parsing they can do so without repeating the flaws of other games.

Since the data available from the game (WoW) is available, the readouts for the data should be much closer in values. The fact that recount does not give like-data from player to player is the fault of the addon, not of the game.


As for EQ2, meters (the ones I've seen- EQPixie and EQIIInterface)there also gave data that had a large margin of error, as much as 25%. No way I'm going to line up characters and compare them with that disparity.

[Zarador]

Without sounding flippant, I personally could care less.

If you're in a Kin or circle of friends doing high end content and playing the Min/Max game then what effect will it really have on you?

If you're not in such a Kin or circle of friends with the Min/Max mentality, then again, what effect would it have on you?

My only apprehension is seeing the usual idiots in a pick up group waving their DPS meter around, but then again, they do that anyway with gear, so what harm, really?

[ilikeham49]

So I guess i missed this, but What about burglars and other classes that help the group with stuff that isn't DPS, such as debuffs? If you want to boot a class/player out for low dps, then you won't be having any burglars, we are low on dps as I have been told, and If we did trait for dps, you can forget about us controling the adds. I don't see the dps meter helping in this game,
and look at the arguments and fights its causing, It seems half the players would never use it, so what then play by your self?

[Zarador]

So I guess i missed this, but What about burglars and other classes that help the group with stuff that isn't DPS, such as debuffs? If you want to boot a class/player out for low dps, then you won't be having any burglars, we are low on dps as I have been told, and If we did trait for dps, you can forget about us controling the adds. I don't see the dps meter helping in this game,
and look at the arguments and fights its causing, It seems half the players would never use it, so what then play by your self?

Exactly!

Not to mention the Rune Keepers that can go either way in a fight depending on the circumstances.

[Asperity]

So I guess i missed this, but What about burglars and other classes that help the group with stuff that isn't DPS, such as debuffs? If you want to boot a class/player out for low dps, then you won't be having any burglars, we are low on dps as I have been told, and If we did trait for dps, you can forget about us controling the adds. I don't see the dps meter helping in this game,
and look at the arguments and fights its causing, It seems half the players would never use it, so what then play by your self?

Because people don't establish DPS expectations universally. As time progresses from the time the content is first seen, people develop expectations based on the fight's mechanics and how the classes interact with those mechanics. Fights like Saurfang, where ranged DPS has to kite blood beasts, are not expected to top the meters. Fights like Dreamwalker, where melee is constantly moving to targets, most melee is expected to be towards the bottom.

[-Sylvan-Shadow-]

I am so utterly glad you are on a different server than i.

Of course, if we WERE on the same server, and the meter existed, you'd get the boot for being a failguard around me and my burg, but that little gem will have to stay buried.

so just stay over there and keep that kind of attitude on your server mmkay?

I'm no fail guard, and I start my own groups.
You wouldn't even get into one of my groups, just because you seem like you'd be bitter in game as well.
mmk?

[Tannus]

The reason I posted this thread was to find out why we don't use them. I was simply curious of the + and - sides of them.
I was asked why we don't have dps meters in lotro the other day, by my gf (WoW player).
I couldn't answer her, so I decided to ask the community, seemed like a reasonable idea, and question.

Instead I get pounced on, so naturally i'm going to start taking shots at people who take them at me.

But you're right, this thread did derail pretty fast lol

This post was directed at altiheart btw (forgot to hit the quote button )

The thing with text is that how you phrase a question is important.
When you make statements like

After a wipe it would be good to know if there is a fail champ/hunter/rk in the group.

and

99% of the time it isn't me. When it is me I admit it. Nice try.

it comes across as both scapegoating and arrogant.

As other have said, you probably didn't mean it in that way, but in text comments like that can be misunderstood. Sometimes I think I'd like to have a DPS meter, so I could have a simple way of testing Bow A vs Bow B, or P:S vs S:S, but to be honest, the monsters die either way, and I don't really care that much.

[Kraggy]

But see, it's not. GearScore is an add-on that takes the number assigned by Blizzard to a particular piece of gear and adds it to the numbers for each other piece of gear on a character and arrives at a total. It is an arbitrary number, and a piece of gear with stats that are of no use to your character will have the same GS as a piece of gear with stats that are useful.

The game itself does scoring, try the 'instance finder' (or whatever it is) you'll see you'll be locked out of the end-game content if your gear is too low, clearly the game itself is 'scoring' your gear.