Introducing the 2013 LOTRO Player Council

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Originally Posted by Lestache

I can't possibly know another person's mind, but someone earlier mentioned that a known Landroval griefer made it on to the Council, so my guess would be that Estellost is subscribing to a "one bad apple" theory.

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That makes sense. But I can't see Sapience wasting his vacation reading hundreds of applications and select this person based on that alone.

Or who knows... There's people representing all kinds of play styles (well, almost) with different backgrounds I'm sure, different visions and approaches. All the buzz will settle down by the weekend and no one will remember there's even a Council.

PS: the second I saw one person in that council who famously never disagrees with Turbine (and unless there are unknown characters, his highest toon is 46, 6 years of playing...) I immediately felt this council is a bad joke. Bad then I saw Yicky and there's light at the end of the tunnel :)

Congrats to everyone on the council. In particular, grats to all the fine members from Landroval, and we in Remnant are particularly honored to have our Kinsmate, Elenrandir on the council!!!!! What a great choice.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

I can't possibly know another person's mind, but someone earlier mentioned that a known Landroval griefer made it on to the Council, so my guess would be that Estellost is subscribing to a "one bad apple" theory.

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To be clear, the griefer had/has a character on Landroval but on these forums he is listed from a different server. Just to be clear.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm curious as to what that other game is. The only other beloved IP I can think of that has an MMO is Star Wars, and the SWTOR F2P model is quite different that LOTRO's: if you subscribe (equivalent of VIP here), the in-game Store leaves you alone, as opposed to here where it's pushed on all players frequently regardless of subscription status.

(I am told that it's a rather brutal system for the people attempting to play for free, but I think that is as it should be - the whole idea behind allowing people to play for free should be to make it abundantly clear that it is going to be far cheaper and more fun to subscribe than to not. I do wish that Turbine would do more to clearly delineate between VIPs and non-VIPs, but alas.)

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Star Trek Online is also F2P but I havent tried it since it went F2P so not sure how that compares

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Originally Posted by Lestache

I'm curious as to what that other game is. The only other beloved IP I can think of that has an MMO is Star Wars, and the SWTOR F2P model is quite different that LOTRO's: if you subscribe (equivalent of VIP here), the in-game Store leaves you alone, as opposed to here where it's pushed on all players frequently regardless of subscription status.

(I am told that it's a rather brutal system for the people attempting to play for free, but I think that is as it should be - the whole idea behind allowing people to play for free should be to make it abundantly clear that it is going to be far cheaper and more fun to subscribe than to not. I do wish that Turbine would do more to clearly delineate between VIPs and non-VIPs, but alas.)

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That would be Star Trek Online. Now I can speak for myself (and my fellow fleet members to some extent) but we voted with our feet and wallets. This was when the fleet starbases came out. That was enough for us. The store had become a very "in your face" thing, even as a lifer there. Trust me, after the 230th announcement of "Capt. Cruchstarz has won a Galor class ship!" while doing you 10th run through one of the 5 mission you can do to earn dilithium. (Essential for everything. Imagine having to grind nodes for weeks, as a kin, to build the most basic kinhouse! Then, after that, grinding even more to buy the gear in the shops in the house) I was able to talk many of them in coming here and at least try LOTRO. Many have found a new home.

While I have my fair share of issues with the system here (and the hobbit gifts slot machines are a big one) there is much, much worse out there. I feel a happy medium can be found. For the raiders, I can honestly say I have only done that for a bit, and did not have a good experience. I am only spitballing here, but more well thought out posts, with rational issues brought to the table, and less "design for us, so we can be more uber" may help. I know this is just a small percentage of raiders that act like this, but they do seem to drown out the more business-like of you.

Also, why care (not you personally) if I, as a casual player, can get good gear by grinding out Hytbold? After all, in lieu of raiding (something I do not have the time to do) I can get nice teal armor. That combined with my 2nd Age 85 weapons (with symbols from the Skirm vendor) and my teal jewelry (crafted) make me a good addition to my kin (and in no way diminish anyone's accomplishments) After all, at least to me, I worked just as hard rebuilding that town as a hard core raider did running raids.

I missed out on all of this and didn't apply. I was wondering if anyone selected represents the

-barely plays LOTRO
-complains on forums constantly
-logs in to pay house fees

demographic?

If you could point me in the direction of that representative I'd be grateful. I have some thoughts about the game from that perspective that would really help those people that log in monthly to pay house dues.

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Originally Posted by Datheor

That would be Star Trek Online. Now I can speak for myself (and my fellow fleet members to some extent) but we voted with our feet and wallets. This was when the fleet starbases came out. That was enough for us. The store had become a very "in your face" thing, even as a lifer there. Trust me, after the 230th announcement of "Capt. Cruchstarz has won a Galor class ship!" while doing you 10th run through one of the 5 mission you can do to earn dilithium. (Essential for everything. Imagine having to grind nodes for weeks, as a kin, to build the most basic kinhouse! Then, after that, grinding even more to buy the gear in the shops in the house) I was able to talk many of them in coming here and at least try LOTRO. Many have found a new home.

While I have my fair share of issues with the system here (and the hobbit gifts slot machines are a big one) there is much, much worse out there. I feel a happy medium can be found. For the raiders, I can honestly say I have only done that for a bit, and did not have a good experience. I am only spitballing here, but more well thought out posts, with rational issues brought to the table, and less "design for us, so we can be more uber" may help. I know this is just a small percentage of raiders that act like this, but they do seem to drown out the more business-like of you.

Also, why care (not you personally) if I, as a casual player, can get good gear by grinding out Hytbold? After all, in lieu of raiding (something I do not have the time to do) I can get nice teal armor. That combined with my 2nd Age 85 weapons (with symbols from the Skirm vendor) and my teal jewelry (crafted) make me a good addition to my kin (and in no way diminish anyone's accomplishments) After all, at least to me, I worked just as hard rebuilding that town as a hard core raider did running raids.

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Ah, thank you. I don't know why I didn't think of Star Trek as a beloved IP.

That does sound pretty bad. As much as I'm disappointed by LOTRO lately, even I have to say that you're far better off here than in STO. :)

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Originally Posted by Sapience

A reminder to all council members that you are under an NDA. Be very careful in contacting and being contacted by other players.

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A fine line that must be walked. They obviously need to understand the public, but must be very careful about letting ANY information back into the public about what they know.

They will want to play the game and be social, but have to make sure that what they know doesn't ever eeek out... it's a very fine line to walk and especially when you know some cool stuff!

Good luck to everyone that has been selected! And may the odds be Ever in your Favor!!!

Well now.. can't say I'm suprised at the list... seems like there was a *touch* of favoritism. /eyeroll Grats to those picked, sad it wasn't unbiased choices.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

Ah, thank you. I don't know why I didn't think of Star Trek as a beloved IP.

That does sound pretty bad. As much as I'm disappointed by LOTRO lately, even I have to say that you're far better off here than in STO. :)

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No problem. I like to joke that there were 3 IP's I live to see. Star Wars, Star Trek and LOTRO. I am 43, so I grew up right through the "heart" of Trek and Wars. Then LOTR came to the movies...when I heard about MMO's for each of them, well, it was a moment. I missed out on Galaxies (real life, raising a daughter, etc.) Then Star Trek Online came out. I bought a whole new rig just to Beta test it. It was pretty good...for a while. Then my wife told me about LOTRO. I was hooked from day one. Friends lured me away to SWTOR, but it never quite clicked with me.

So, I came back to my chance at playing in my childhood memories (I started reading Tolkien at 12) When issues with this game start to get to me, I ride through The Shire, or to the Blue Ladies cave, watch the light show in Forochel or play a round of Hide and Seek in Chetwood (where I hand out a gold piece and a full set of lvl 7 purple jewelry to someone new to this world.) My wife thinks it odd, my daughter (she is 22) wonders a bit about dear old dad being touched in the head. I don't care. The world I daydreamed about growing up in Montana is here, and I can still enjoy it. If the player council can help make that a bit better, I say give them a shot. If not, I can still hang out with the fellowship in Rivendell. For all my griping, I plan on being here until the last server is shut down.

To all the omniscient harbingers of the sky falling, please take a chill pill. From a list of 70-75 names you do not know all their alts and accounts as well as in game and out of game experience. Even Turbine employees would have to look up which toons have done T2C at level and other things the people have gotten their panties in a twist over. Rest assured that Turbine had some metrics to discern the final list from all applicants and recommendations they received. Nobody, including Turbine, knows where this is going but we can all hope that it will prove more useful than devs sitting in an ivory tower out of touch with the common needs and wants of the peasants in the trenches. The Forums are obviously the vocal minority and may or may not represent the populous, likely some of both. We will have to wait and see how the Counsil is utilized by Turbine and to what extent they are empowered so relax, the sky is not falling, the sun has not come up yet so we can't see what is happening. Suspend your prejudices and stop prejudging without any information whatsoever as a basis.

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Originally Posted by NobodySpcl

To all the omniscient harbingers of the sky falling, please take a chill pill. From a list of 70-75 names you do not know all their alts and accounts as well as in game and out of game experience. Even Turbine employees would have to look up which toons have done T2C at level and other things the people have gotten their panties in a twist over. Rest assured that Turbine had some metrics to discern the final list from all applicants and recommendations they received. Nobody, including Turbine, knows where this is going but we can all hope that it will prove more useful than devs sitting in an ivory tower out of touch with the common needs and wants of the peasants in the trenches. The Forums are obviously the vocal minority and may or may not represent the populous, likely some of both. We will have to wait and see how the Counsil is utilized by Turbine and to what extent they are empowered so relax, the sky is not falling, the sun has not come up yet so we can't see what is happening. Suspend your prejudices and stop prejudging without any information whatsoever as a basis.

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Congrats on your council selection, Shezgotnyctips!!!!

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Originally Posted by Devro

Well, I am on your current Riddermark server. And I hardly consider myself a gloating or arrogant person. (although I do come across as a smart-alec sometimes)

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I said the person that was arrogant is NOT on riddermark

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Originally Posted by Devro

]If you have any useful suggestions on how the game can be improved I am more than willing to listen and forward those ideas to the people who can effect changes.

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Well if they ignore the suggestion forum, why should they take note of you? And if they don't ignore the suggestion forum, why don't I just post it there after all you might not be at all interested in the things I want or suggest?

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Originally Posted by Devro

That being said, I see far too many people on this thread crying doomsday because the Devs should only take opinions from the polls based on here. The problem I have with that is, the people who post their complaints on here all seem to be VERY pointed in which direction the game should be turned. (i.e. I don't see anyone from a raiding kin that is saying they wish the crafting was better).

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Well while my kin has gone quiet with numerous people leaving the game and the officers, myself included, have taken the decision to leave it as a very casual kin for the time being due to real life commitments etc, we were a raiding kin and I can assure you the kin leader, myself and one of the other officers are very interested in crafting and in housing.

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Originally Posted by Devro

The average player doesn't post on the forums. They pretty much just stay in game and play. They aren't as easily bored as the people who only find pleasure in a single aspect of the game, hence they don't have all the free time. So, in my honest opinion, polls on the forum are not the best way to go, as you will only get opinions from those people who spend their time on the forums, and not in the actual game.

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Well the average player you just described, seems quite happy with things. If someone's happy then they're happy.

Surely we want those that used to be happy but are now wondering if Lotro is still for them (many being life long Tolkien fans etc) to be happy, hence their complaints might need looking at far more urgently than the people happy with things as they are?

And if they don't choose to visit the forums and post suggestions, they are not going to know much if anything about the player council and they will not know or take the time to contact those on it with their suggestions, which leads us back to the suggestion section of the forum.

Please explain how someone contacting you about something they would like fixed/changed/added that you don't have any interest in, is better than them posting it in the suggestion part of the forum etc. If they post in the forum, they get a responce from other interested (or not interested) parties. You are tied to a NDA hence can say very little if anything to the person making the suggestion

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Originally Posted by Devro

Am I a hardcore raider? No. But, I do spend a lot of time raiding even though I am not in a hardcore raiding kin.
Am I a hardcore PvMPer? No. But a lot of people that are either my in game friends, or in my kin DO have a heavy Moors presence.
Am I a hardcore RPer? No. In fact I think they are kind of weird to get pulled into a video game that much.

All being said. I think I represent the average player more than someone who thinks we should have 20 more high end-nearly impossible raids, or is a rank 15 Warg.

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Average in the way you think is average, and therein lies one of the big problems with the council. I could just as easily argue that when I'm on Riddermark, 90%+ of the non trash talk on GLFF is people discussing raids, looking for raids, trying to fill raids hence to me the average person likes raids.

While I love raiding, I also like crafting, I wish the housing was more like eq2 and I like all aspects of the game, except for how dumbed down and easy it has become.

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Originally Posted by Devro

At the end of the day, nobody has a clue really, about what will or will not happen with the council, and it is all speculation at this point. Jumping on the boat to criticize what hasn't even really started yet seems a bit of both premature and immature.

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First of all, in my previous posts in this thread, I wished all council members the best.

However, I'm 48, have spent many years working in businesses, many in management, I have seen schemes like this introduced in various disguises, usually when moral is really low, and naturally the people thinking they can make a change, are enthusiastic and cant understand all the negativity.

I can imagine the scenario at Turbine, people like Sapience politely say to the management about the feeling of players on the forum, the senior management having a meeting and one of them suggesting giving the players council to Sapience to implement as a PR stunt, of course they wont tell him its a PR stunt, he will go with it with full gusto, believing everything they told him, really believing it could make a difference. if he believes it, the players will hopefully believe it.

Or the other much worse scenario where sapience knows full well its a joke and is still trying to sell it to us. But I suspect he's doing it all in good faith.

Most people that have worked in the business world a fair while, will look at something like this, raise their eyebrows and think along the lines along the lines of "here we go again, those poor people, they really believe the hype they're being sold"

I've seen it too many times, I've made the mistake of joining in too many times in the past with a positive hat on.

In my younger days I too couldn't understand people raising their eyebrows or ridiculing creating non existent positions etc and I too would tell them to give me a chance and why the negativity before I've even started. But over the years I came to understand why they did so, simple reason, you can only fool someone so many times before they wont be fooled again (unless they are indeed a fool).

And too many people have changed jobs seen the same sort of thing happening, raised concerns about what they witnessed in the past, are told to give it a chance, things will be different this time, but sadly they NEVER are.

I've witnessed the end result too many times, it's ALWAYS sadly the same

1) Nothing changes
2) Many of the newly promoted people end up leaving and disillusioned
3) A few crawly "yes men/women" types end up being promoted further as they suck up to the management in every way they can, and end up making moral far worse.

What NEVER happens is that these things work. Well they work in that it's usually a desperate attempt from management to pull the wool over employees eyes for a while and cross the next low moral bridge when they come to it (so in the case of Lotro, it could be a case of keeping gamers happy until they can sell them the next expansion etc)

I'm sorry if that sounds negative but its the truth.

People are complaining about nay-slayers before the council has been given a chance, but people (well most people, there's always a few) aren't ridiculing it just for the sake of it, they are doing so from experience.

When I gave a shorter description of the above in a previous post earlier in this thread, I said clearly and I stand by it that I REALLY REALLY HOPE I'M PROVEN 100% WRONG when it comes to the players council. That said, if I'm proven right, I wont be the slightest bit surprised.

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Originally Posted by Nasty8

Congrats on your council selection, Shezgotnyctips!!!!

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Turbine, can you please force a name change on this character, and let us know you are not ignoring this name?

How sexist can you get? Just replace the p with a t - in case you need it really spelled out for you. What is next? A forum mod named Barefoot&Pregnant?

It is 2013, not 1974. Sexist jokes about women's bodies are not funny - unless you are 13 years old.

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Originally Posted by Lilka

I took it to mean that he was emailed the request for contact information. REAL contact information

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See? That's what I get for assuming on the internet...apologies. :)

Well I just recieved a E-mail and replied. I will be joining the council as well. Replied maybe 5 minutes ago. I guess they had 5 spots still due to whatever.


To provide the community a little bit about myself. I have been in Lotro since beta and I would fall into the raiding and PVMP category. I do not claim to be a grammer major as I am in the Marine Corps and they don't pay me to spell.

Raiding Wise: I was server first for Thorog and thorog 2.0 (after they changed the fight the first time) , Server first for Thaurlauch (rift) kill and World 4th for Thaurlauch as a member of Legends. We were also Watcher server second and first when they updated that fight as well.
The new content I have completed all of the new raids on T2 to include Flight THE LEGIT way not by bugging it out. I have not downed Challenge in Erebor or Flight although I was a big part of our Erebor t2 Challenge server first on Nimrodel. I just happened to not be able to make the raid that night that they downed it so I missed being a part of the actual group but strat wise and the work up I was there.


Hate us or love us as the player council we are here to help you and serve the community and be the buffer between member base and Turbine. So use and abuse us as that is what we are here for. I can promise i will do everything I can to provide feedback to Turbine and take this very seriously myself.

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Originally Posted by Cindir

Turbine, can you please force a name change on this character, and let us know you are not ignoring this name?How sexist can you get? Just replace the p with a t - in case you need it really spelled out for you. What is next? A forum mod named Barefoot&Pregnant?

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Congratulations aside, I do agree the name is completely over the top, regardless of intention. We don't know for certain the meaning behind the name, but people have had their names changed for much less...

Oh, and my original post was quite sarcastic, I can assure you.

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Originally Posted by Cindir

Turbine, can you please force a name change on this character, and let us know you are not ignoring this name?

How sexist can you get? Just replace the p with a t - in case you need it really spelled out for you. What is next? A forum mod named Barefoot&Pregnant?

It is 2013, not 1974. Sexist jokes about women's bodies are not funny - unless you are 13 years old.

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Originally Posted by Nasty8

Congratulations aside, I do agree the name is completely over the top, regardless of intention. We don't know for certain the meaning behind the name, but people have had their names changed for much less...

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You may want to repack your outrage and save it for later:

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Originally Posted by Daschande

Shezgotnyctips is in my kin, and raids with us quite a bit. The name is not a sexual reference, it's an arrow reference (as a hunter); their last name is "Piercewell". I actually made a reading mistake once while shouting out instructions over vent when the proverbial stuff hit the fan; I said (completely seriously and with quite a bit of urgency) "Nips, run away from the warg; it's rooted!" ...we almost wiped due to the torrent of laughter in vent.

I know Shes will be a great representative of the raiding community (and the LOTRO community as a whole), even if our kin isn't one of the top raiding kins worldwide.

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Edit to add: since it appears that Shezgotnyctips is played by a female, even if it were a reference to nipples would it still be sexist? I hope not, but if so, perhaps we should inform the authors of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" that they're sexist pigs for promoting women having a positive body image.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

You may want to repack your outrage and save it for later:

... since it appears that Shezgotnyctips is played by a female, even if it were a reference to nipples would it still be sexist? I hope not, but if so, perhaps we should inform the authors of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" that they're sexist pigs for promoting women having a positive body image.

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Who is outraged?

Take some outrageously racist name, and then make up a story that it has some other meaning. Is it still Ok for a character to have that name - which can easily be taken as racist? or one that is sexist. Sure - she could have gone to a NY City deli - but it is still pretty offensive. Doesn't matter if Shez is a female.

And on your comment about parts of women bodies - so are you arguing names like bigX - where X is a male body part - should be allowed. I can't agree. Nothing to do with being PC - it is more about respect.

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Originally Posted by ben4patriots

Well I just recieved a E-mail and replied. I will be joining the council as well.

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lol i choked on my drink, gratz! you and Tas lol

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Originally Posted by Lestache

You may want to repack your outrage and save it for later:

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I'm not outraged at all.

Frustrated, confused, curious? Sure. But definitely not outraged.

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Originally Posted by Lestache

Edit to add: since it appears that Shezgotnyctips is played by a female, even if it were a reference to nipples would it still be sexist? I hope not, but if so, perhaps we should inform the authors of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" that they're sexist pigs for promoting women having a positive body image.

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Um, really, come on, the name is ridiculous. I don't care if it is in reference to tips as in arrows (okay??) or nips...it's a name that belongs in WoW, not here. I have never been one to report people for their names, or complain about them (publicly), but I just cannot fathom this player was chosen over others, with this character name. I am quite sure when they created this character they thought they were being clever, flirty, cheeky, or something. *yawn* Give me a break.

I am rather apathetically hopeful about the player council. I have seen this done in other games and the usual scenario involves a group of yes-men which the developer totally ignores when they (however rarely) make suggestions to steer in a direction the company doesn't like. the primary purpose of the council is so the company can say "Well, we ran this by the player council and THEY like the idea!" whenever they come up with moronic ideas that they actually intended to shoehorn in regardless of what the player council said... they just like having the little bit of artificial credibility they get just by saying they ran it past a group of players with vague qualifications.

HOWEVER!!!

I know several of the people on the player's council, and they are not people that come to mind when I think "sycophantic Turbine worshipers." I feel that these are people that would be very quick to go public if they are being repeatedly ignored and used as a rubber stamp by Turbine. Now, that doesn't mean that I have that same faith in Turbine, I believe wholeheartedly that Turbine INTENDS to use them as the aforementioned sycophantic yes-men, I just feel that at least some of these people who are far more interested in the game then they are in their new title and status will be acting in the community's best interest rather than selling out to Turbine.

The three that I happen to know are VERY conscientious and take the community, the server and the game very seriously. If Turbine were a van driving madly out of control down a mountain road, these are the people I would want to see in the driver's seat.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Vilya

• Gwenfareer USA

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This player does not exist on Vilya.

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Originally Posted by Nasty8

I'm not outraged at all.

Frustrated, confused, curious? Sure. But definitely not outraged.

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Shh...

They are going to represent the Raiding Community.