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This thread is a laugh-fest. Seriously guys this council hasn't even started yet. Give these guys a chance and see what happens...if it doesn't work out to your expectations then apply next year when they select a new council by giving your feedback and ideas in a well thought-out app, many of you act like this council is going to be a life-long term.
P.S. all that matters is that these guys convince them to ditch the LI system and don't fail at endgame like RoR did, the rest doesn't matter
Okay now I'm outraged!!!1111!11Quote:
Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie
:cool:
The point most of us are making is that it's a complete waste of time, hence we wouldn't even consider applying. That might sound negative, but I cant understand how it can possibly work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baritone
To give an example of how this all seems pointless, simply go to the Withywindle servers forum.
Toffeecake has posted a well meaning thread saying they have been selected to be on the council and asking people for ideas that they would like him/her to bring up.
The responses so far
More/better Raids
attention to pvp
Lag issues
Lag spike issues
Disconnection issues
crafting revamp
war steed cosmetics should be account wide
revamp of housing system
better character creation
new musical instruments
New haircuts
Most of those have one person suggesting it, the exception being, you've guessed it, raids and pvp (OK in fairness the thread hasn't been up very long).
But regardless of how many people have suggested what so far, the fact still remains that absolutely nothing about those suggestions is new, name me one that hasn't been discussed almost to death at some point on the forums already, possibly haircuts but if that is the case, then it obviously isn't a priority for most?
I simply don't see what the council is supposed to achieve?
If exactly the same points that are bought up almost daily on the forums are suggested to the council members, please explain how that achieves anything? That's not me being negative or not giving the council a chance, that's me being honest about an obvious flaw in the whole thing.
At best it will achieve nothing.
At worst the council member will get exactly the same suggestions/comments that have been made time and time again on this forum consisting of suggestions about every area, and they will take it upon themselves which ones are most important, meaning that those suggestions they aren't really interested in, never get mentioned.
If someone wants to get a suggestion heard, if they have any sense, they will post it on the forum for others to comment on, not give their suggestion to some person they probably don't really know (OK a few might know them), have no idea how they tick, don't know what their passion is for, not knowing if the council member will even pass their suggestion on to turbine.
Then what it the long term implications, are the mods going to shut down the suggestion forums and stop much of the discussion in other areas of the forums, directing us to the player council instead?
If they do, it will be a sad day and show that the whole idea was a PR stunt and Turbine are using the council as an excuse to remove negative posts from the forums.
If they don't, it will mean the council is pointless.
It will also mean the suggestion section is pointless, whats the point of having that and a player council?
A complete catch 22 situation
A completely unworkable thing
And we don't have to give it a fair chance to see that, common sense gives no other possible outcomes.
The only possible good outcome is that the council brings every suggestion given to them (again that have already been discussed to death on the forums already) and Turbine introduce the lot, in which case, again the councils pointless.
It's all very well saying give the council a chance, but please explain how anything but the above can possibly happen?
http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/120296507/1372936Quote:
Originally Posted by Axnthnlogn
I'm thrilled to see the Player's Council moving forward, I'm sure the inaugural council will have its own unique set of challenges, but I wish them luck and will provide my support.
Is there some standard page that players will be able to go here on lotro.com to find the current list of Player's Council, and identify the rep for their server?
Sapience claims it was just a "happy coincidence" that every server had a representative chosen. Laughable, but we understand why he needed to say that.
Now let's face it: for the majority of us, we take pride in our servers and wanted competent/knowledgeable representatives from our severs to be chosen. I for one wrote over half a dozen nominations, and I know of well over three dozen solid players from Riddermark who put in their applications.
And yet, Turbine chooses this:
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...cost/Glaam.jpg
To represent more than half of the very active Riddermark community. I know he claims his rig does not allow him to raid, but look at this! Does his rig also prevent him to 3man/6man? Or does it stop him from all forms of crafting? Or hell ... looks like he does not even understand how to use the AH. Is this what Turbine thinks or Riddermark???
I understand Turbine wants to "represent" a wide range of player personalities (the uber casual gamer included). But how would you feel if your raid heavy, solid pvp server was chosen to be represented by uber casuals?
Luckily, I don't have to be around to see this whole debacle play out (hiatus for a new work assignment), but I now have another insult from Turbine which will make me consider loooong and hard whether its time to hang up the Lotro account and get ready for ESO when I get back.
Edit:
And the other Riddermark selection has also spoken for himself:
Cries. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Devro
Who is they, though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasty8
This thread has been stickied, and I hope/expect that the initial post announcing the current council members will be kept up to date with any changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_the_Cat
A reminder that we are all your representatives regardless of the servers we play on, and it was just a coincidence that every server wound up with at least one rep, so even though I play on Brandywine, for example, I'm not being considered as just one of the Brandywine reps.
They were not chosen to "represent" the server itself, they were chosen to "represent" different play-styles. Trust me, there are Dedicated Raiders among the Council members. There are those dedicated to group play and end game. There are those dedicated to PvMP, and there are those who are interested in a large variety of things/issues. Just because there are no Dedicated Raiders(I don't like using the term hardcore, it's not for me to determine who's hardcore and who isn't, just like it's not for anyone else but the person him/herself to determine that) from Riddermark, does not mean there are none on the Council itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Costs
Our ability to reach out, communicate, understand, share, and influence a member of the council becomes severely weakened when we cannot even see them in-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by VoronturEU
Proximity matters. Every Republic on Earth understands that.
The council members that are closest to Riddermark proximity have no interest/understanding of our server's general makeup. It must be easy to say "deal with it," when your sever is not the one being represented by nothing else but casual gamers.
Give it time ... the blatant double-think of your above statement will become more apparent overtime.
Ah.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrittainTheCommie
You have me stumped. Considering I've never even heard of or seen the council member selected from what is arguably LOTRO's smallest server (Firefoot), it would be unfair for me to cast judgment on a player based on what I've seen from a broken MyLotro site.
That being said...
Nevermind. I won't go there.
I think you may have misunderstood the concept of the council. The council is helping us make the game better. Not helping us craft customized versions of the game for each server. There aren't going to be 29 unique versions of the game based on feedback from each server and how they view themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Costs
Riddermark has the exact same game code as Vilya, Estel, Landroval, etc. A person who plays a specific way plays that way regardless of the server they happen to play on.
I think you misunderstand what people are objecting to. The concerns of those posting seem to be that they hoped the council would be able to help change the course Turbine is taking with this game into the super-casual App type social facebook game. But when they see who makes up the council they view them to be nothing more than at worst a rubber stamp for Turbine's pre-planned direction. And at best, completely clueless as to what would make this game "better" if turbine were to ask them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Sometimes, its not about the game code, it's about how decisions will affect the atmosphere and community on the various worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
I don't have a particular problem with either of the representatives from our world, but I do sympathize with people who may only use in-game as a means to reach out with feedback, concerns or other matters. I am fortunate to have interacted with a significant portion of these players over my 2 years both as a forum regular and a beta-participant. (At least 14 from a glance at the list of names) As such I know that I won't have a problem getting in touch with someone I feel is appropriate for any particular topic.
Remember, that the council is made up of a diverse group of players. Consider taking this as opportunity to get to know someone who may have a radically different playstyle, culture, or attitude than you about the game.
If you want to get to know a CM then put their name on your friends list and give them a tell. You must understand though that we are players and not Turbine employees. If the person giving the CM just wants to yell at a CM they should not be surprise to find they have been ignored. If you want the Devs to give serious consideration to what you have to say then use the Suggestion forums. Write clearly about the problem, if it is a problem. Don't just say 39% of the PvP wear black all the time because the best guesstament is not going to lend weight to your stance. You should also have a viable solution clearly stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Costs
Why am I telling you to do this? Because the DEVs build the game. We CMs are just receiving some instructions now. I will listen, provided the person talking is courteous, to what is being said. But I am human and I would rather have it written down so I can refer to it later when the topic comes up. I have nearly my entire day reading forums because I do love this game and I do want to help the community to the best of my ability. But the entire process, as I believe I understand it, will work so much better if the everyone does their part to make it a successful collaboration.
That's my 2cents on this subject. It does not come from a DEV or an employee of either Turbine or Warner Bros. I am just an ordinary player like yourself. Well, except I am probably better in combat! :p
I, for one, like the idea of a player's council, and I have hopes that they will help keep LOTRo a fun and viable game. I do not, however, expect that they will have much say over the direction of the game. I suspect they will be more of a focus group - a small group of players representing the overall player base that will be used to test and fine tune ideas.
From the player's council announcement: "What is the LOTRO Player Council?
The LOTRO Player Council is a group of players selected to provide targeted feedback and valuable suggestions to the LOTRO Team. This will involve participating in surveys, focused discussions, as well as highly structured and targeted developer chats. Often the topics covered will be elements of game design at their earliest stages, well before they are committed to development or appear in our test programs like Palantir."
We do not, at this time, know what LOTRo will be asking of the council. The use of the words focused, targeted and highly structured give the impression that council members will not be giving suggestions at their pleasure. In reality, I can't imagine how a free-for-all brain storming from that many people would ever get anywhere.
I think all the doom and gloom about what the council will or won't do is a bit early. We will probably not know what they are discussing for months, if at all, due to the NDA. Also, it's good to remember that Turbine and WB are businesses. The goal of most businesses is to be profitable. Having happy gamers wanting to play the game (and spend money on the game) is in their best interest. Therefore, having the player's council be a successful project is in their best interest. Is it a perfect solution? No. But, I do think it's a positive step.
I wish those selected an enjoyable journey.
Have people forgotten that LOTRO is not a democracy? Turbine doesn't have to make a player council. They don't have to listen to anything the players say. But they are making the effort anyway because they do want to make a game that the playerbase will enjoy. Making a player council doesn't make their job easier, it makes it more complex. The player council is for our benefit, not theirs.
Why then are so many people being so very ungrateful? Why is there so much complaining? Once again, Turbine and LOTRO are not a democracy. You are not owed any kind of representation and the player council is not for you, personally. It's for the game in general. Show some respect and gratitude for what Turbine and these players are trying to do.
The simple answer to your post and I'm not meaning to be rude to you personally when I say this, is because we simply are not that gullible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fionnuala
A I said in my previous post, common sense says it will achieve nothing, therefore it's only been done for PR reasons and nothing else.
A players council doesn't make turbines job any harder at all.
Sure it's a little bit of extra work for Sapience but that's all. And anyone that's modded a forum knows how easy it is to set up new section etc.
So far he's had to pick a set number of names from a list, miraculously managing to include every server while doing so.
And he's had to draw up a few paragraphs worth of rules for them. He is the main customer rep on this forum, hence it makes sense he spends time on this, after all a fair few people really are falling for the idea it could make a difference.
All he has to do is put in an appearance from time to time (even a few times a day) in the players council section at the same time as he checks the other forums, tell them what a great job they are doing and meanwhile Turbine will go on doing their own thing and nothing will be any different as to what it would be if the council didn't exist.
As I said in my previous post, one CM member asked for questions/suggestions and all of them were the same things bought up day in and day out on these forums already.
I agree that Turbine and Lotro is not a democracy, that's exactly why having the player council is a pointless exercise, they will listen to them bringing up the same complaints/suggestions bought up daily on the forums just as much as they listen to those on the forums doing so.
My biggest worry (again as I said in my previous post) is that Turbine might use the players council as an excuse to get rid of the suggestion part of the forum and stop many of the posts complaining about how people feel the games gone downhill. Directing them instead to the players council where we cant get any feedback due to NDA.
Then the forum will look like everyone's happy with Lotro.
And again as I keep stressing, I would love nothing more than to be proven 100% wrong about the council, but sadly I somehow don't think I will be.
I'm sorry, but it took me ten minutes to stop laughing at the sheer tonnage of sour grapes in this post. I'm sorry your raider buddies didn't get picked for the player council, but (and I know this is going to come as a huge shock) NOT EVERYONE RAIDS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Costs
I personally find raiding to be laughably dull. Or to quote Yahtzee from The Escapist:
I asked someone who raids, "why do you raid?" "To get the best items," they said. "What do you use the best items for," I asked, to which they could only answer, "to raid with!"
But you know what? That's okay. Not everyone has to like the same things in an MMO. Some people spend weeks upon weeks roleplaying without ever getting in combat... but they aren't adequately represented on every server either, should all the roleplayers get whiny about it? Oh... and not every server has a casual gamer represented, perhaps they need to protest. While we think of that, not every European player is properly represented on the US-based servers, and vice versa... we need to deal with that too...
As much of a problem as I have with Turbine most of the time, to throw a tantrum because you feel you aren't adequately represented due to a hardcore raider from your server not making it is just a little bit childish. In order to appease everyone on every server they would have had to make the player council about five hundred members strong. If they do that, why not make everyone a member and they can all give their own input to every situation.
...oh wait, that's the suggestions forum.
Congrats to all members to player counsil
Good on all the crickhollow members! Do us proud!!!
Obviously the concerns many of us are having are going over some of your heads. I have made some very simple illustrations so that even Sapience cannot misunderstand us.
Before the idea of a player council, players "collectively" aired complaints via the suggestion forums. Any player could contribute, and every player had the equal joy of being ignored by Turbine.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/1.jpg
Then Turbine came up with the idea of a "Player Council." This council narrows down the "collective" power of the suggestion forums by creating a new bureaucratic layer by which Turbine could either refer us to, or claim they are listening to.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/2.jpg
Regardless of whether Turbine chooses to listen or completely ignore the player council, that new entity has now become a new gateway. We used to rely on sheer forum numbers to get attention (i.e. like a democracy, if the leaders actually responded), but are now given a representative body in the form of a council (hence a republic).
Now we get into some of the real issues with the council.
No two council members are exactly alike. Those who love specific aspects of the game will be more diligent in representing that aspect. For instance, if I am big into raiding, I will get less results from a casual gamer because he either cannot comprehend the issue's scope or impact, or does not want move the game in that direction. In short, some will transfer your concerns, some will not.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/3.jpg
It then becomes our burden to dedicate our playtime to begin forum research to find which representatives in the council would advocate our suggestions and which would simply ignore us. Because the majority of these members are not from our servers, we are left with copious amounts of sifting, interviewing, and guessing to determine who would represent our play style (this is beginning to sound less and less like a game).
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/4.jpg
Once we find a member who would be more likely to represent us (if we ever do), we are then faced with a new challenge: communication and trust. Those who happen to already be in that council member's server are already at a great advantage over those who are not. Being in the same server, that player has many ways to reach out to the council member, share referrals, and build trust via play and constant exposure. Those outside the server are locked into a far less effective and less consistent approach.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/5.jpg
Therefore some players will have excellent opportunities to have their voices loudly heard by competent players who have experience, passion for the game, and a superb understanding. Others will be left reaching out in-game to those who still have not figured out how to craft little alone raid ... and especially how to assert themselves in a council whose members are beyond them.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/6.jpg
This disparity will come in large part because of server choice only ... which dis-balance occurred because Sapience did not take the time to pay attention when he chose ONLY casual council members from a server (i.e. Riddermark).
Lastly, to those who claim Lotro is Not a democracy ... you are wrong. Lotro is a democracy. Every day we all vote with our money.
http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/...ift_cost/7.jpg
And I am voting NO.
It may have been said in a comical/ironic context, but it actually makes sense in a serious context, especially in LotRO, where we have multiple raid tiers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trusilver
I realized this when i read a post a while back that was asking the question of why raiders raid, and someone was complaining it was pointless to do T2 and T2C because all the rewards were available in T1. What i and others replied to him was along the lines of "you don't do T2 and T2C for rewards, you do it for the pleasure and challenge of completing it", so effectively you're doing T1 to gear yourself up for T2 and above, so yeah people do raid so they can get gear to raid with. Doesn't sound like such a funny concept when it's put into context does it?
Supposing that the PC is not a PR stunt (I think it is to some degree but probably as a side benefit) lets look at how it could function to actually improve communication.
People are saying that it would take some effort to track down the "relevant" CMs to bring up particular issues, well, I would argue that there is no need to directly contact CMs at all and to do so would be cumbersome, time wasting and would frequently result in bad cases of Chinese whispers.
Instead I think we should encourage
1)increased use of the forums
2)Get the CMs to scour the forums (particularly those relating to their primary interests) and flag/link pressing or new issues to the Council private forums and relevant Turbine staff.
3) Maybe get the CMs to encourage and stimulate discussions on the public forums. Tricky one as they might end up giving big hints to current dev issues covered by NDA but still....
Better to quote players by links rather than try and paraphrase them and risk missing their point entirely.
I actually think there is a serious downside to identifying the CMs but it's a necessary evil as we need to know that they are real people and do exist. I think canvassing them individually is a bad idea as loud voices screaming down their earholes can detract from them seeing the bigger picture in a quiet considered way. Better they take a reconnaissance role rather than ambassadorial one imho. Effectively they could be the unpaid (therefore not beholden to the company) eyes and ears that spot things on the forums and other websites that the Turbine staff do not have the resources to cover.
So in other words, the CM's are doing Turbines job for them but without being paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Catburg
Win win for Turbine