Excellent suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrolen
Excuse me, I have to put my crafters to work.
;)
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Excellent suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrolen
Excuse me, I have to put my crafters to work.
;)
"I loathe it" has taken the lead.
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2938/pollc.jpg
http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...-in-the-store/
I'm with you on the "line is right here, right now". It's a line Turbine themselves drew, and need to be held accountable to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta
Of course, things change for companies in financial matters. Any company will face a time when they have to change direction if they want to keep making money. But it does not need to be done in such an underhand manner. They knew what an uproar this would cause; that's why Sapience is at work on a Saturday on a holiday weekend. It's what Fernando Paiz flat out stated in his interview. But they could've been up-front about it and said, "We're going to change direction here and do what we said we wouldn't", and give reason for it, not hide it behind a lame excuse such as the players asked for it, when noone can find the thread that contains the pleas for armor in the store.
It still would have caused the uproar, but at least they'd have shown some degree of integrity in being forward about the direction change. The way they've done this has been pretty low and lacking in character.
Sorta misses the point though. You can be a hypocrite and fail to live up to your own standards and principles. But that doesn't mean the principles and standards aren't worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrolen
And the fact that Turbine knows this and makes its business decisions based on that knowledge doesn't make it any more acceptable. It's still a violation of the principle. And it still does damage to the integrity of the game as a game.
There's all sorts of things we don't allow ourselves to indulge in the real world because it would be too disruptive or would have "ripple effects" that would be undesirable even if the act itself really harms nobody directly. We draw the line at such behaviors and discourage them (even pass laws against them) not because we as individuals wouldn't want to indulge such behaviors, but because of principles that are at stake and the undesireable side-effects.
So, are the players enablers? Will some people continue to use the store in general even though they wish it never existed? Sure. But so what? That's an axiomatic truth that really takes us nowhere other than to the sad realization that the MMO industry is being transformed as a whole, because more people put up with this "progress" than protest, and more people keep playing than quit, and that there really is no place left for those who enjoyed the older model of MMO.
As I've said before, there's really no stopping the inevitable. We can only hope to delay it.
--H
I find it interesting that only 4% of the votes are in favor of the change, and only 30% are either in favor or neutral towards the change. 70% against or strongly against the addition of stat gear to the Store is pretty telling. And since the percentage in favor isn't really growing at all, it looks like a landslide result against is assured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryos
The absolute best jewelry gives +70 to ONE stat, and people grind for it for weeks on end. Yet somehow +70 to every single stat is trivial.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCntry
Somehow, I don't think many people share your opinion on the triviality of these tomes.
1. How many runs did it take to see those four tomes?Quote:
How many have I personally seen drop? 4. How many can I attest to others having had dropped, a few dozen.
2. How many tier 7 tomes have you seen drop in-game? (I'm guessing none, as they're store-exclusive)
I see this myth repeated a lot, but nobody has ever offered to prove it. Yet at the same time, I'm finding that top tier relics today take just as long to grind euivalent relics under the old LI system.Quote:
Again, the changes to how relics are obtained basically made the requirement of having to remove them at reforge pointless. You can get a relic that is the same one you had slotted in maybe 20min of slow work.
Also, if someone does buy a scroll to keep their legacy T9 relics, only to lose said relics on a reforge (not a decon, a reforge), is it appropriate for the GM to refuse to replace the relics or scroll? And if so, is it appropriate for the same GM to suggest that the customer buy new relics from the store?
Perhaps my client is bugged or something, but it seems that I'm not able to log in to the same game that you're describing.
So what? Really? That makes so little sense. If players deplore the store THAT much, then DON'T BUY STUFF FROM IT. There's absolutely nothing in that store that is mandatory. There's nothing in that store that is going to stop you from enjoying a game. Stop buying Turbine Points and giving Turbine an incentive to put MORE things that you hate on it. It's pretty simple, folks. I hate that they're putting statted gear in the store when they said they wouldn't, so guess what? I'm not going to support them by purchasing it. Pretty simple, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin
Exactly. What is posted with each item added probably means very little and it'll come down to what is bought/what isn't bought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrolen
If you don't like the gear, don't buy it.
If you don't like stat tomes, don't buy them.
If you don't like the store-only relics, don't buy them.
If you don't like relic removal scrolls, don't buy them.
If you don't like ___________, don't buy them.
Personally I don't care for any of the items in the store and have not and will not purchase any of it, but that's just me. As for filling up the AH, I plan on doing what I can to have the items on the AH as options.
But for posting low-level crafted items on the AH - it would be nice to be able to have more than 30 AH slots on a single character and/or allowing some posts to last longer than 2 days as those are impediments to offering a wide range of items available more often on the AH. As an Armourer, it can be very limiting to how much you can have available on the AH without switching to alts and monitoring it constantly. It would be nice to be able to craft a few sets of various levels/armor available on the AH without having to maintain the AH/crafting every two days on multiple characters.
I've remained quiet on the whole F2P transition up until now, giving Turbine the benefit of the doubt. But everyday I'm feeling more sympathetic towards those who cried "F2P is a slippery slope". First the stat tomes, then relics in the store, loot boxes, and now armors.
And here's what I see as the flipside of this: buggy gameplay, recycled content, broken "beta" forums/blogs after months, and half-finished features that are never developed further (PvMP, LUA scripting, housing, music, hobbies). I waited to see fixes after the F2P dust settled, and apart from a few minor improvements it never happened. How does this new business model of selling "convenience" items and lockbox keys create any incentive to fix bugs or produce quality content?
I'm really disappointed in you Turbine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverangel
Agreed 100%
"Hope" is what led people to say that Lotro would never have a RMT store.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimbran
"Hope" is what led people to say that Turbine would never sell stats.
"Hope" is what led people to say Turbine would never sell legacy scrolls.
"Hope" is what led people to say Turbine would never sell armor.
How's that hopey thing working out for ya?
In the end this development leaves me saddened, but not surprised. I cannot even muster the energy to be angry any more. The limits of what is acceptable in the store has been slowly pushed further and further back until we are here. Simply stated, putting things in the store that are core to gameplay is just wrong. Gear should be gained through questing or crafting.
The slow drip-drip-drip that other posters have mentioned began for me with the relic removal scrolls, and the following six months have seen more and more things made harder to achieve or obtain in game, paralleled with their appearance in the store.
The direction things have taken have seen me drifting slowly away from the game, no /ragequit, just a loss of motivation to actually play. I cannot actually quit now as such, because I went premium months ago, betting that the money I would need to spend on content in the store would be less than my subscription. How did that turn out? Well, so far I have not needed to buy points and have all of the content I need (all quest packs, every skirmish I'll ever play Etc).
Ironically, the reason I'm commenting on this now is that I was wondering about coming back for a bit, and I chose today to see how things were going. My usual good timing.
The depressing thought is that if Turbine directed their efforts into creating new content at the rate they had promised over the last year or so, instead of adding things to the store that seemingly most players do not want, I'd both be playing more and would have spent more money. If there were things in the store that give me more to do, I'd buy them in a heartbeat. I might not even use them (much), but I'd be happy to support the game in that way.
It's interesting to me that you snipped my post where you did considering that there is explanatory language both before and after that quote that expands upon that "so what?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayrolen
You seemed to be making the point that the only thing that will stop Turbine from putting things in the store is if nobody buys them. And you were making the related point that not enough people "stick to their guns" and "put their money where their mouth is" and actually follow through on not purchasing these things.
But, there are several flaws in your position.
- There are enough casual/unconcened players who will buy this stuff that a boycott by those who do care will be ineffective. So, we continue down the slippery slope.
- Few people actually quit. They say they will, but they don't. History (both with this game and others) has demonstrated this time and again. . . and Turbine knows this.
- A boycott by only those who object plays right into the hands of those who say: "It doesn't affect me directly, so it's fine." Even if they only make a few bucks on additions like this, and those annoyed by them boycott ever buying them, Turbine's incentive to add more such things remains. They will just increase the volume and make it available to those who do buy them.
I haven't familiarized myself with each and every one of your posts in this thread. But I think we may in fact be on the same side. We both see this development as a bad thing. I just happen to disagree that there's any value in pointing out the hypocrisy of those who buy things in the store despite their distaste for it. It's just a basic reality. The only way you can keep these things out of the store is to. . . (wait for it). . . keep these things out of the store. As a matter of principle. Boycotting them once they're in has very little effect.
Not directed at anyone in particular: They couldn't have put stat armour in the store if we had stood on principle as a community against stat tomes. Just like they'll never be able to put raid armour, 1st/2nd Age symbols, or other endgame equipment if we stand on principle against stat armour in general.
But, as I've said, I'm a fatalist about this. I don't think this community has it in itself to stop this trend. Human nature, industry trends, and basic economics work against us. Slow it? Maybe. But stop it? Not likely. We're like a classic conservative, "standing athwart history yelling 'stop!'". . . but we know in the end the battle is for naught.
--H
That "hope" armor can take a lot of damage, get pretty dinged up with lots of scratches and rents in it. But it should never blind anyone (willful ignorance is what blinds-- and before anyone gets all bent out of shape thinking I'm calling anyone ignorant, think again. Willful ignorance is ignoring what you see despite what you see). We may not be able to see the future, but the past is pretty clear and the direction it's heading doesn't look good at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta
I am really really dissapointed in the way turbine is going... I though turbine was powered by our fans but since f2p i aint seeing this at all anymore...
This way is more powered by $!
No one wanted permanent Tome stats and look what was added... permanent Tome stats.
No one wanted Relic removal scrolls in the store ONLY... and look whats added... Relic removal scrolls in store only.
No one wanted stat gear in the store... and looks whats added... stat gear in store!.
The thing i am most scared is that this list is going to be bigger and faster.... Please turbine for once listen to the REAL fans and stop this madness...
I made a few posts about the relic systems with numbers showing that the grind is at least as bad now as it was before (at least once you make the relics the second time, can't remember if it was as bad the first time. If it wasn't, it wasn't far off).Quote:
Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta
Ugh.
Is the minute profit you'll make off level 20 gear really worth the perceived integrity of your company to longtime players? Or is this just a toe-in-the-water approach to prepare us for the coming raid gear/level selling?
I don't want to go to SWToR, but the prospect of a fresh, untainted start is becoming rapidly more appealing.
qft.Quote:
Originally Posted by leraginasian
123456
Another step among many towards a fully-fledged pay-to-win Store, as predicted.
Well it makes it very unpleasant to read. Nobody who comes here from out in the Interwebz will be able to get anything from this thread. Basically it limits the audience of this thread to those who already posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellemere
You think that is intentional or unintentional?
It's the toe-in-the-water approach, definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeRaginAsian
Add junk gear to the store so all the diehard fans can claim that this doesn't amount to much.
Later, add more junk gear so those that bought the first set can get leveled-up gear.
Later, add better gear. Then endgame gear. Then raid gear with stat bonuses and bells.
Finally, just in time for Christmas, add level 75 chars in aforementioned raid gear so we don't even have to worry about getting the maxed chars to actually use the gear.
This isn't a slippery slope, people. It's Kingda Ka. Might as well enjoy the ride.
Too true. I've had more than a few kinnies leave out of boredom a little before the f2p came out and even more after it as they were bored and couldn't stand the store. These were people who really did love the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolas
It appears Turbine is making money, but I have to wonder how many long-term players they are attracting? I don't really see loads of new players at endgame in my server but the low level areas always seem busy enough. To me it appears that there are plenty of people trying the game but not staying and I believe this is due to reasons you've outlined.
"hope and change" - they never turn out as one would like.Quote:
Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta
sometimes i think turbine hired some former washington political types based on some of the things i have seen in the past couple years.
It really is a shame because when I came to this game I think it was in a good place. I knbow the longtimers will probably not be fond of the evolution of the post vanilla game but I still was quite happy where it was at. I joined not right at the outset of f2p, but just a couple months into it. I joined a server that was started with the founding of f2p so it was fairly fresh using the f2p factor to act more as my trial and was vip within 2 weeks.
I had a great time but really that trickling feeling of devolution in the overall game vibe started in the weeks approaching ROI, at that point I wrote much of it off as just folks looking to other things while waiting on the expansion. The advent of the expansion was a mix of 'yay new shiny' and disappointment at that certain shinies felt a bit like polished coprolites, but regardless the major revamp of my main class (Minstrel) made healing fun and fresh which helped a lot.
As the bloom sort of wore off while I wasn't completely geared (had only one actual draig item and it wasn't the cloak) I still had something of that feeling of sort of 'done'. Update 5 that was supposed to be the hub that finished off and rounded out the gaps that were held.
Sadly quality the content compared to frequency of new store gee-gaws compelled me to finally cough up my VIP to drop down to premium in favor of a different game sub (as someone who does not change games very often, Lotro was only my second MMO).
I enjoyed my time here, and I still stop in once a week for my kinship's group night but even among those still here one can tell there's a certain pride in one's game that just is not there anymore. LOTRO's appeal for me (beyond exploring the world of Tolkien factor) was that this game had that "we're something different, we're more community, more interested in depth of game, etc."
Each additional factor given the store that is not purely cosmetic just takes further steps away from that original compelling factor-- I loved middle earth but each additional emphasis on the store just reminds me why I am so much more partial to a direct monthly payment factor. I know what I'm getting, I know what can reasonably be expected and what is likely to be on the horizon.
Those are things that one has a much harder time trying to forecast in the context of a store-heavy f2p model. That is what this additional development adds to my concern. It just continues down that path of "I didn't expect X to happen, so how do I know Y shall not"
It a murky water that does not give one the desire to feel like committing long term to a product the way I generally would like which is such a shame because had you asked me 4-5 months back I'd have said this is the game I will be playing for the next 2-3 years at least.
I´m tending to be a bit skeptical. This might be the wow version of lvling gear where they added like xp bosts and some stats, i think this is the direction they are gonna take, not putting end game gear on the store. Besides an end game piece would cost what 10k tp?
Let´s just hope and see dont dramatize the whole situation because of this. They may not go on with this. Besides WHO on earth would spend arround 300 tp for an horrible gear piece? you can get the craft set for what 400 silver on AH.