Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Burglar Developer Diary

I found an old dev post that I thought was interesting, given the radio silence:
www.lotrolife.com/burglar_changes

Even in Book 7 which was what, 2 years ago, there were similar concerns over the desirability of burglars in groups.

My experience of leveling and gearing a burglar as a first toon was frustrating, mostly due to challenges of finding groups at level 65. I see most groups looking for specific, defined roles when forming groups. In smaller group content most just want a specific tank/heal/dps role filled.

The main role for burgs in current small groups is dps, so I will start there. If you have a dps slot in northcotton farm, would you choose a burglar or hunter? Given two equally geared players of unknown ability, I think most will choose a hunter. Why? They are less risky. A hunter can dps from range, and that helps greatly with poison clouds in in two of the boss fights. A burglar can certainly do the job‚ but the melee aspect makes it more likely that the group will wipe.

Glacial fortress is another example. Fighting coldbear and the guardians is possible on a burglar, but less risky than a hunter. Given two unknowns, people invariably choose the safer option. Sure, a well-played burglar might offer some other utility, but that probably does not outweigh the risks.

Burglars can also tank in a pinch, but most do not feel comfortable with an unknown burg as a tank. Again, maybe they can do it with optimal gear and gameplay, but why bother when other tanks are available?

These are just some examples of the thought process I see when groups are formed, and why it can be difficult for burglars to get into small groups.

With other classes getting increased versatility (which I think is great) and burglars remaining stagnant, I think burgs will fall further behind other classes outside of certain raid content and pvp. Compared to other utility classes in small group desirability, I think burgs will be a distant third behind captains and loremasters.

What to do? Not sure, but burglars need to bring something unique that makes them more desirable than they are now.

On top of what I posted last night, Celestrata just closed a thread today about the Burg changes (and current state) due to it being unproductive. While I agree with her assessment of that one, it's kind of funny that the threads full of rage are the only ones that are being publicly addressed.

EDIT: Saw this posted at the end of the new Lore Master dev diary- "Please remember that testing (both internal and external) continues and that any of the above bullet points are subject to change." Both diaries were written by Raskolnikov. Does the fact that this statement is missing from the burg diary mean that the posted updates will not be changed due to feedback? I'm probably grasping at straws here, but it does seem strange to me.

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Originally Posted by Ellda

The main role for burgs in current small groups is dps, so I will start there. If you have a dps slot in northcotton farm, would you choose a burglar or hunter? Given two equally geared players of unknown ability, I think most will choose a hunter. Why? They are less risky. A hunter can dps from range, and that helps greatly with poison clouds in in two of the boss fights. A burglar can certainly do the job‚ but the melee aspect makes it more likely that the group will wipe.

Glacial fortress is another example. Fighting coldbear and the guardians is possible on a burglar, but less risky than a hunter. Given two unknowns, people invariably choose the safer option. Sure, a well-played burglar might offer some other utility, but that probably does not outweigh the risks.

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I would virtually never choose a Hunter over a Burglar, unless the Burglar sucked (ie: wasn't traited QK).

In Legbarthil (NCF), a Burglar could do a couple of green conjunctions that far more than make up for the extra damage they are taking in melee range. A Burglar should make a NCF run faster and safer.

As for GF, Melee classes are so much better than ranged for Coldbear thanks to the wights. The Guardians are a really stupid mechanic that does marginally favor ranged classes, but there's no absolute guarantee ranged classes won't get knocked off anyway. At least burglars can stun lock them and do green cjs on them (allowing people to group up in front of the Guardians and take lots of damage).

The times you want a Hunter over a Burglar are few and far between. Pretty much only 1-2 ranged DPSers for Poison, 1-2 ranged DPSers for Wound, and at least 1 Hunter is also nice for Gortheron.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

I would virtually never choose a Hunter over a Burglar, unless the Burglar sucked (ie: wasn't traited QK).

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Unfortunately very few players would share that view if they want a "dps class", especially for 3 mans.

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In Legbarthil (NCF), a Burglar could do a couple of green conjunctions that far more than make up for the extra damage they are taking in melee range. A Burglar should make a NCF run faster and safer.

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I think Hunters make NCF runs faster and safer due to:
- poison removal
- RoT (and other CC if required)
- Boss 1: sustained damage irrespective of roots (and higher burst damage on eggs)
- Boss 2: range and damage type

The only time I'd pick a burg over a hunter would be if there was no tank available. I've burg tanked this lots with hunter friends, but not because we specifically wanted that combo.

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As for GF, Melee classes are so much better than ranged for Coldbear thanks to the wights. The Guardians are a really stupid mechanic that does marginally favor ranged classes, but there's no absolute guarantee ranged classes won't get knocked off anyway.

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Boss 1: The wights are an optional component, and probably not worth using in most pugs. The range of a hunter is safer for avoiding the other mechanics.

Boss 2: Hunters are better due to their range (faster on wights and giants, safer on fanatics) and can tank if required.

Boss 3: The only real danger is getting knocked off, which should not happen to hunters. They are more efficient once the guards are down due to less movement. Burgs can be used to exploit, but lets hope few do that. The fastest I've done this is with 2 Hunters.

I'd be surprised if Hunters are not the highest dps class in each of the GF boss fights due to the mechanics. Maybe an OP guard just standing and taking everything might compare, but the power requirements would be high.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

I would virtually never choose a Hunter over a Burglar, unless the Burglar sucked (ie: wasn't traited QK).

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Bolded part ( emphasis by me ) is one the class' major issues. Gambler and MM are nice to play around with, but that's pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

Unfortunately very few players would share that view if they want a "dps class", especially for 3 mans.

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Well I think this is true but only due to the fact that Burglar's are poorly played a little more often than Hunters are, and because people are naive.

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

I think Hunters make NCF runs faster and safer due to:
- poison removal
- RoT (and other CC if required)
- Boss 1: sustained damage irrespective of roots (and higher burst damage on eggs)
- Boss 2: range and damage type

The only time I'd pick a burg over a hunter would be if there was no tank available. I've burg tanked this lots with hunter friends, but not because we specifically wanted that combo.

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1) Aren't all the poisons not removable? I mean you could increases resist rating with the Hunter skill but that would be a waste of time/dps.
2) Isn't it safe to assume you're not going to die on the trash regardless? Burgs have stuns/riddle anyway which is surely at least as useful as Hunter's fears/roots.
3) This is true, but with a good tank who moves old Leggy far enough out of puddles (so the Burg can get positional), and is aware of when the other player is rooted and moves to them, the Burglar's damage should be not far from max. That's a lot to ask for from a tank I guess, but I certainly do all that when I'm tanking, and theoretically I feel a Burglar should be able to contribute more damage than Hunter (via debuffs as well as dps of course).
4) I dunno about the damage type of the second boss but I don't think range makes any difference. Although, that said, a Hunter traited for fleet stance might be able to do some damage on the move I suppose. I've never seen anyone actually do that though.

Basically, I'd be very surprised if a Hunter contributed more damage than a Burglar even in a 3 man. Counter Defense makes a big difference in there.

Burglars as tanks are pretty miserable I agree. They're more than survivable enough, but their own DPS is drastically lowered thanks to no positional damage, and the other DPSer has to slow down if they don't want to pull aggro.

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Originally Posted by slack_n_hash

Boss 1: The wights are an optional component, and probably not worth using in most pugs. The range of a hunter is safer for avoiding the other mechanics.

Boss 2: Hunters are better due to their range (faster on wights and giants, safer on fanatics) and can tank if required.

Boss 3: The only real danger is getting knocked off, which should not happen to hunters. They are more efficient once the guards are down due to less movement. Burgs can be used to exploit, but lets hope few do that. The fastest I've done this is with 2 Hunters.

I'd be surprised if Hunters are not the highest dps class in each of the GF boss fights due to the mechanics. Maybe an OP guard just standing and taking everything might compare, but the power requirements would be high.

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Boss 1: The wights are optional, but as long as you have a couple of melees you absolutely may as well use them once Coldbear II is down to half health. It basically guarantees success from that point.

Boss 2: The adds in that fight come just after twist comes off cooldown each time. The burglar can stun almost every mob (including stun-locking fanatics), and that's far more beneficial than what a Hunter brings. They can also be in position for when the mobs arrive each time if desired, and can also tank (for the few seconds the mob lives for after twist expires) if necessary.

Boss 3: Sure life is definitely easier for Hunters against the Caerogs.

Think how hard it is for a Hunter to compete with the combined dps+debuffs/stuns of a Burglar. In a six person group, there's potentially around half a person's worth of extra dmg coming just from debuffs. And Burglar's can't really die very easily.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

Many words ;)

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You miss point. Mostly players who comment here have burglar. No need to prove us that burglar is cool etc. We want to play burg. But facts are facts. It doesn't matter how you will point that burg can do that or other thing. Point is that whole fellow/raid must see how usefull is brg. We just want to play, have fun from that and feel... needed?

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Originally Posted by blipp

Bolded part ( emphasis by me ) is one the class' major issues. Gambler and MM are nice to play around with, but that's pretty much it.

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But I do play around with MM in fellowships! It's not useless. Better tricks, better mezzing. I don't go into groups where there are DPS races this way but most of the content does not require 100% damage output from every member. Not being traited QK does not mean the burglar sucks! That attitude seems to come from a pure DPS-is-king mindset, it may rule in other games but we should not have to put up with such simplicity here.

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Originally Posted by Celestrata

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape. Because the Burglar had fairly recently had a ‘Month of’ update we decided to keep the changes focused around polishing some of the rough edges. Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Tim 'Raskolnikov' Lang and post your comments here!

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It's a JOKE?
JUST AMAZING....

I play Burglar and the class is overpowered.
With Isengard, Burglar is now OVEROVEROVERPOWERED.
With Isengard no more challenge in Ettenmoors all creeps are now free kill for my Burglar.

Thanks you Very much TIM LANG ("pretty good shape" it's another joke?)

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Originally Posted by Cliford

You miss point. Mostly players who comment here have burglar. No need to prove us that burglar is cool etc. We want to play burg. But facts are facts. It doesn't matter how you will point that burg can do that or other thing. Point is that whole fellow/raid must see how usefull is brg. We just want to play, have fun from that and feel... needed?

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Well I was responding to the people in this thread saying Burglars aren't useful in a group.

I agreed that we can't compete with the defensive debuffing/CC capabilities of an LM (as we are a little bit lacking, comparatively speaking, in the Utility department).

But I was pointing out that we are almost categorically better than Hunters thanks to high single target damage contributions coupled with a little bit of additional utility.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

But I do play around with MM in fellowships! It's not useless. Better tricks, better mezzing. I don't go into groups where there are DPS races this way but most of the content does not require 100% damage output from every member. Not being traited QK does not mean the burglar sucks! That attitude seems to come from a pure DPS-is-king mindset, it may rule in other games but we should not have to put up with such simplicity here.

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The attitude does not come from a [insult about focusing too much DPS only here, giving subtle implication that player is bad] mindset.

That attitude comes from the fact that we can't really compete with LMs for a spot in a 6 man group. Our defensive debuffs are mediocre at best, our CC is limited, and conjunctions are rarely life saving (in 6 mans anyway).

So we should compete with Hunters instead (that is, if we really had to compete for a spot in a group, it would be largely based on our damage contribution). As I pointed out above, we will almost always contribute much more dmg than a Hunter, and do bring at least a little "utility" (stuns etc) at the same time.

More than 2 MM traits is redundant in this case. If you go into a fellowship traited deep in MM, you may as well have taken an LM instead (or not bothered with a support class at all as they're not really needed, and just brought another Hunter).

In a raid MM is slightly more viable thanks to QaS. For some trash pulls you want to trait a few extra yellows for riddle resist, etc. But QK is better for every boss fight in OD.

I have mixed feelings about these changes...

On one hand they'll be great for my little burg in PvE, making her even more powerful (and I can honestly she already is) at both soloing and raiding.

On the other hand I already feel OP in PvP with Safe Fall, stupidly high DPS and 4 escape skills. These changes seem to push my PvP possibilities to a ridiculous level.
Being able to mez Wargs and Spiders is fine to me, but being able to do so without breaking stealth is just too much. I never needed it before, and I don't think it's very fair.
Auto-crits from stealth is alright with me, it just saves having to use Aim and will allow lazy burglars to step up their game without effort.
However, I do think the 3-target stun should be disabled PvP; it's already the longest stun out there, and being able to use mez from stealth, then a 3-target Dust, immediately followed by a 3-target Twist just seems to make things a bit too easy for me. It means I can CC 4 creeps before they've realised what has happened, kill their fifth and run before they've broken free. And that's without using Conjunction stuns, Confound, T&G, HiPS or R&A.

Right now I feel I'm at the top of the food chain in EM without having to feel guilty about it, I'm comfortable where I am. Some of these changes however would make it feel like I'm given a machine gun to beat toddles armed with sticks and rocks.
Very soft sticks and rocks.


All in all I welcome the changes in PvE, but I'd like to see some disabled in PvP, as DF is.

Good changes, looking forward to seeing how it all pans out in practice. The MM changes are fairly subtle, but it could add up to something useful, have to wait and see. I'd love it if it became a smart-but-hard-to-master raid build, who knows?

Good job devs. Did anything happen with riddle resist rates? I can't remember, but if not maybe you could look at that (a resist in a raid can mess everything up, and as the player you're at the mercy of the rng, no skill involved).

As for LM vs Burg, well, I'd take Gandalf to a fight before I picked Bilbo for the team, so fair enough if they've got more going on. But they seem to die easily, and we don't, so I think that evens things up.

I hate the trait lines. I trait 4QK 3MM and I have since I started playing my burg. But the devs keep telling me I'm not doing it right, and I'm getting a bit annoyed by that.

I also almost never stealth. I guess it's ok for soloing, but soloing is trivial and you can do it with any setup. But, every burg I've seen spends most of the time in fellowships unstealthed, and the fact that the devs have given us so many stealth related buffs makes me think that they just fundamentally don't understand how we're playing. I do like the being able to mez anything bit though. It may not make a whole lot of sense, but I'm tired of having to explain that I can't mez insects.

Also, stop giving guardians FM starters. That's our job.

I am looking forward to the new Burg Traits. I have not leveled mine up to 65 yet, but working on it now. I certainly like the new plans for the burgs. I am looking forward to playing mine more! Especially with the state being focused on Agility over Might. I have a feeling burgs will be hitting very hard!

I also do not stealth much at all on my burg. I only do for fellowships to start a boss fight off with a trip or something. Otherwise I am almost always in Mischief where I can use Clever retort.

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Originally Posted by Evendale

That attitude comes from the fact that we can't really compete with LMs for a spot in a 6 man group.

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But we're not competing. Well I'm not anyway. This is not a competitive game outside of the silly moors.

My burglar gets invited to 6 man groups leads some. No one has ever said "sorry, we'll advertise for another half hour to see if there's an LM available". No, they invite me and we go. When my LM gets to max level I have absolutely no expectation that I'll have an easier job finding a group than my burglar.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

But we're not competing. Well I'm not anyway. This is not a competitive game outside of the silly moors.

My burglar gets invited to 6 man groups leads some. No one has ever said "sorry, we'll advertise for another half hour to see if there's an LM available". No, they invite me and we go. When my LM gets to max level I have absolutely no expectation that I'll have an easier job finding a group than my burglar.

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Yes, fortunately for us virtually all content is easy enough to not require debuffing (that's a bit of an ironic statement really).

Thus all people care about is finishing stuff quickly. And the amount of time spent looking for people to group with is usually the most deciding factor as to how long it takes to finish something :p.

It'd still be nice if our supposed primary role (debuffing) had some real value though.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

But we're not competing. Well I'm not anyway. This is not a competitive game outside of the silly moors.

My burglar gets invited to 6 man groups leads some. No one has ever said "sorry, we'll advertise for another half hour to see if there's an LM available". No, they invite me and we go. When my LM gets to max level I have absolutely no expectation that I'll have an easier job finding a group than my burglar.

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Agreed here. Not once have I ever been turned down as a Burg. Actually, when I should LFF as a Burg, I get added pretty quick to groups. Some people have said that the debuffs are useless, and I disagree with it... but they aren't necessary. The nice thing though is the amount of FM's I manage to pull out. Probably the most exciting part of the Burg, so long as Champions (my wife plays one) aren't using too many horns. Haha.

But yes, I've never really had any problem getting a group for anything, which is very nice!

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Originally Posted by SonofInnocence

so long as Champions (my wife plays one) aren't using too many horns.

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So you're saying your wife is too... horn-y? :cool:

(sorry, couldn't resist)

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Originally Posted by auximenes

So you're saying your wife is too... horn-y? :cool:

(sorry, couldn't resist)

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ROFLOL! I laughed so hard! Hahaha. When I told my wife, she said: "That's my job" >.< Blasted Champions.

Not a single blue-name post to address the many concerns posted in this thread. Way to keep the lines of communication open, guys.

I hear many disappointments that remind me exactly how I felt when MoM came out. What was realized is that the class usefulness in most cases lies in DPS, and most skills (save for gambles which I never liked anyway) work in 5QK build.

With melee offence linked to 10 times Agility, the DPS will improve. Also interesting and most welcome reduce in the "Escape clause" cooldown, if blue trait is slotted it will further reduce the cooldown to 5 minutes.

On the DPS point, I can't think of any 6-man inst that burg-pack + captain can't deal with FASTER than any other group. (You might remember me running all-burg turtle raids back in a day on Landroval). Solid evasion tanking for good 1.5 minutes straight, guaranteed FMs (or interrupts for otherwise uninterruptable casts), top-notch DPS when in position - would be a big problem if we didn't have Provoke, mez that will now work on all mobs.

So I share common disappointment about MM and Gambler trait lines being underutilized but on the positive side, we don't have to re-trait completely every so often =)

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Originally Posted by Dyslex

Not a single blue-name post to address the many concerns posted in this thread. Way to keep the lines of communication open, guys.

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Cliford
All u can recive for now ;) I whining for dev response from biggining, but hey... lets give them couple more months. :(

These will make the burglar waaaay to over-powered in PvMP.


Edit: Just read the rest of the posts and it seems people want burgs to be better hunters? Won't we have the same problem with hunters then?

Read up but still not 100% clear, will we need to equip might at all (atm is more might vit agil), will it be agil vit only in futur?

Second would it be worth gearing up trying to get brawling and sarenzaer etc now or wait to see what jewls come out in RoI? Do we know any jewls from the new instances? (The 3 and 6 men? As I don't raid).

Look forward to responses and thanks in advance :)

Seems pretty good to me PVE wise. PVP wise it won't do much for me either. Most people here say: we can stun 3-6 creeps at once now. Thing is on Gilrain 90% of creeps go to action prepaired c.q. anti-mez pots.

According to the developer diary http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...w-stat-updates might will be largely irrelevant for burgs.

WHY the hell are you making stance for each trait line at each classes??!

make Quiet Knife the default "no stance"-stance like you did for melody for minstrel.

and make that gambler use the mischief stance which is modified by trait and trait set bonus of the gambler trait line.

then there will be just one stance: mischief and no-stance.

And for god sake why can't someone in mischief enter into sneak that defy logic...

someone who do mischief isn't likely to go sneaky?

well I never saw a gambler in casino going "litterally" sneaky at the blackjack table sorry.

Why being able to Ribble out a target is too much OP to allow sneak?

Just make that:
+5% Damage Bonus on Gambles
-500 Resist Rating Debuff on Trick Removal
become a 2 traits set bonus for the Gambler line.

and:
-25% Trick Power Cost
become 2 traits set bonus of Mischief-Maker line.

so default mischief would end up with
+5% Evade Chance
-30s Riddle Cooldown

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Burglars can now use “Riddle” and “Confound” on any creature type (ie; any genus).

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WHAT! why?...HOW!?...how can you riddle a bear? come on that's idiot I understand why you are making it, but don't answer to noobs demands on that, riddle require intellect and language, and for what I know of lotro burg aren't, as lore-master, able to speak with animals.

Please keep some logic not make it a "generic Mez" spell for burgs.

Ok blinding flash should be, and I would even go to say that Bane flare should be aswell but not Riddle.

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Originally Posted by BIZL

Yeah and I saw that the new Hunter books have Morale or Power and a significant decrease in skill cost or threat.

I'd love to see some bonuses on the signals:

Red, + 500 critical rating
Yellow, +5% bleed magnitude
Green, +10% Glee Healing
Blue, +20% Chance for MD to proc a power heal

Something like this would be great!

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^ This please, in regards to the new burg signals.

Bumping this thread up in the hopes that we can get some clarification on Turbine's official position regarding the purpose of the Burglar in a group setting that makes him a necessary element (aside from CJs, as these take no skill on the part of the Burglar to use).