Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Guardian

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Originally Posted by furtim

By choosing a tank spec, your threat from damage is multiplied by 300%. So as long as you can keep your damage output within 1/3 of the DPS, you should hold aggro purely through damage.

In case you lose aggro, you can use Forced Attack skills (I think Guards have 3, but I don't recall exactly) to execute a threat catch-up that matches the highest aggro on the target's list and then gives you an extra 20% threat on top of it. I believe Engage does something similar on Live, except that the new skills have an additional buffer added on top.

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small correction, but it's actually +300% from everything i've read, so you only need to be above 1/4 of the highest aggro holder.
and this threat bonus is applied the second anyone picks yellow or blue as their trait line. no stance to toggle or set bonus to acquire.

also, to the original question, shield-taunt is still a skill for blueline only. i'm not sure how much threat is generated from it, but all other threat is dps-based plus the 'catch up' mechanic with the forced taunts.



also of note, challenge, fray the edge, and engage are basic skills that work the same way regardless of spec, so it will be possible to force taunt while red line with any 3 of these skills and effectively 'off-tank' something. it might also be possible to tank as redline, but i would say that yellowline using a 2h makes that a bit unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by furtim

By choosing a tank spec, your threat from damage is multiplied by 300%. So as long as you can keep your damage output within 1/3 of the DPS, you should hold aggro purely through damage.

In case you lose aggro, you can use Forced Attack skills (I think Guards have 3, but I don't recall exactly) to execute a threat catch-up that matches the highest aggro on the target's list and then gives you an extra 20% threat on top of it. I believe Engage does something similar on Live, except that the new skills have an additional buffer added on top.

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That seems like easy mode tanking to me. I don't need to know which skills generate extra threat, I just need to keep hitting things? And then if I do manage to lose a mob, I have 3 versions of Engage?

Am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Eliel

That seems like easy mode tanking to me. I don't need to know which skills generate extra threat, I just need to keep hitting things? And then if I do manage to lose a mob, I have 3 versions of Engage?

Am I missing something?

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that is basically it, yes.

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Originally Posted by zagreb000

Yellow line screams QQ from creeps... But we should wait for live....

The only problem for me will be choosing a spec for pvp... Reading this i like them all....

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I didn't have a chance to try sword/board in the Moors but it may be viable for the first time since the introduction of Overpower Stance. I actually had fun running around the landscape with sword/board.

These changes look pretty good for us and I look forward to playing around with the yellow and red lines in the moors. I'm glad they toned down some of the yellow line stuff since the last beta build, but it's still pretty lethal. I will definitely miss being challenged out there though. It looks like guards will be the new "flavor of the month."

Thanks for the write up.

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Originally Posted by Eliel

That seems like easy mode tanking to me. I don't need to know which skills generate extra threat, I just need to keep hitting things? And then if I do manage to lose a mob, I have 3 versions of Engage?

Am I missing something?

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The idea is that tanks would compensate by needing to spend more time on Mit/BPE/Self-Heal abilities if they want to stay alive. As of Beta 5, Guardians are a bit, uh, "overtuned", so this trade-off isn't really for them in play at the moment.

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Originally Posted by furtim

The idea is that tanks would compensate by needing to spend more time on Mit/BPE/Self-Heal abilities if they want to stay alive. As of Beta 5, Guardians are a bit, uh, "overtuned", so this trade-off isn't really for them in play at the moment.

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I see. I guess that makes a bit of sense. But getting and keeping aggro on multiple mobs has always been the part I enjoyed. The skill-use-to-stay-alive aspect of tanking has never been quite as interesting to me. Trait, gear, forget, ask the healer to keep you standing.

Oh well. I'll just have to give it a try.

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Originally Posted by Schinderhannes

In Blue and Yellow spec you will generate +300% Aggro, so you basically tank with all skills that deal damage. In addition to that, some of your force taunts will have an new mechanic that adds additional aggro, depending on the total aggro of the fellowship. It's called "threat catch up".

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Wait, are you saying Guards will get TWO tanking stances? (And, yes, possibly my first ever post in the Guard forums.)

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Originally Posted by Darlgon

Wait, are you saying Guards will get TWO tanking stances? (And, yes, possibly my first ever post in the Guard forums.)

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that is correct.

Whoa, so if I pick yellow line, I can use a 2hd weapon and still tank? That...sounds pretty awesome. I can see myself using that when I solo.

Yep, Yellow is nice. You can also Block with your 2hander.

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Originally Posted by Nilsric

My question would be - is there anything to tank anyhow? big battles do not seem to require any tanking so it's just old instances or am I missing something?

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We still have scaled instances and skirmishes. They were used a lot in Rohan, so I don't expect that to change.

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Originally Posted by Schinderhannes

Yep, Yellow is nice. You can also Block with your 2hander.

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How effective is that? Your mitigations go down because that shield is a ton of armor plus nice stats. Whereas 2hander stats aren't really focused towards tanking. The trait line did not seem to offer the extra mitigations that the other two lines did.

And what's the "target marking"? Is that a new skill not listed, or does it mean your currently selected target?

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Originally Posted by Smartbean

Legacy changes and Legacy Lists

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I'd really like it if they swapped it so that the replaced legacies had "Threat Generation Up Rating -> +1-5 Force Taunt Duration".
Ie, a threat/tanking oriented legacy was replaced by a threat/tanking oriented legacy. Anyone want to suggest it in Beta?

I know we'll be able to redo this stuff once we get to level 95, but some of us may want to tank with our current gear at level 85. There's no way that 300% of my one-handed damage would hold aggro against anyone at this point so all the help I could get is needed (I'm guessing I'm around 1/4 of my captain).

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Originally Posted by oaceen

yes, crit will be important for everything.

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I've never seen much in the way of extra crit on tanking gear in the past, so does new tanking oriented gear now have +crit? What about existing gear, is any existing gear being revamped because of changes? I have seen guardians that seem to have tons of crit but they're pvp.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

How effective is that? Your mitigations go down because that shield is a ton of armor plus nice stats. Whereas 2hander stats aren't really focused towards tanking. The trait line did not seem to offer the extra mitigations that the other two lines did.

And what's the "target marking"? Is that a new skill not listed, or does it mean your currently selected target?


I've never seen much in the way of extra crit on tanking gear in the past, so does new tanking oriented gear now have +crit? What about existing gear, is any existing gear being revamped because of changes? I have seen guardians that seem to have tons of crit but they're pvp.

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i'll try to answer these questions as best i can while explaining the fundamental differences between blue line and yellow line tanking.



blue puts a bit focus on mitigations, defenses, shield skills, and blocking.

+5% block easily obtained in the tree. sting has a 25% chance to initiate a parry/block response (skill in the fist tier of the tree--very useful for redline). shield-blow automatically initiates block responses (basline bonus to the skill).

blue has a stacking buff called fortification you gain 50% of the time when you use a shield skill that increases your mitigations by 2% and stacks 5 times. effectively, your mitigation profile can go up to 80% (side note: this makes dwarves' common mitigation bonus a little more powerful). at 5 stacks, you extend 1 stack to all party members within 20m (giving them +2% mitigation)
litany of defiance is now a moderate cooldown skill (1m30s) that doubles your fortification bonuses for a short time (at the cost of removing them when the effect wears off) and intercepts some of the party's damage for the duration.

shield-wall is for blueline only

the tactical mitigation bonus from guardian's ward: tactics, shield-smash, and pledge, are now in blue line. pledge is fairly easily obtained for yellow, but it's quite difficult to get shield-smash and max out the tactical mitigation bonus as it would be very costly to do so. all out-of-spec points cost double.

there is a morale bubble attached warrior's heart (and its cooldown is now 2m for all specs) as well as a mitigation and block buff.

blue line also has a debuff in the tree in a skill really high up that lowers B/P/E of a target to 0% (not a typo) whenever they are hit with a shield skill.

you get shield-taunt and a legacy that increases shield-smash targets, which is the only real buff to aoe threat in the tree. there's also +100% max range and +5 targets for threat 'catch up' with challenge

you heal yourself whenever you block an attack.

the capstone skill is basically a supercharged pledge, sets your block rating to 100% and reflects on all incoming damage.

there's a very small focus on parry responses. a new skill, smashing stab, is usable after shield-swipe OR retaliation and stuns a target after shield-swipe, bleeds a target after retaliation, and initiates a fellowship maneuver after both.



yellow puts a focus on threat (especially AOE), debuffing your targets (especially your marked target), and increasing your incoming healing, crit defense, and crit ratings.

yellow gets +5% incoming healing by default as well as 5% more easily obtained in the tree. warrior's fortitude primarily buffs evade and incoming healing.

protection is yellow line only (protection by the sword is red line only). you also have forced opening for forced parry responses. hounding fear (the snare from challenge and guardian's defense on live) is a part of yellow line that is levied whenever you attack a target.

you can use a 2h, but you do not have to. it has been stated that it's only really intended for content that is much easier on survivability (such as 3mans, some 6mans, some skirmishes, etc.). imo, i would start with a 1h tanking weapon and only make a 2h much later as a swap in for this easier content when the price of symbols and such goes down a bit.

war-chant is an easily-obtained skill for red and blue. it's an aoe (3 targets, 10m) that deals some light damage (as in the light type) and lowers their damage by 5% for 10s. with a 10s cooldown and a legacy that increases the debuff by 5s, it can be up basically at all times.
later in the tree, you can increase the targets to 8 and range to 20m

take to heart is now a toggle skill like captain marks that you use to mark your target in yellow. once a target is marked, you deal light damage (light-type) to other targets near your marked target, and all debuff values are (and +50% for everything else) and become permanent. take to heart also puts a +10% miss chance (not doubled)

stagger is a basic skill available to every tree, so fully debuffed, your marked target will have a 10% miss chance, -10% damage, +30% attack duration, -50% run speed, and all of this is permanent until you switch marks or the target dies.
there is a skill called radiate that spreads debuffs on a target (easily obtained by redline and blueline, very useful for redline as it spreads bleeds as well). if you use an aoe (vexing blow, sweeping cut, whirling retaliation, war-chant mainly), all the debuffs on your current target spread to other targets nearby.

thrill of danger! it has a buff that restores 2.5% of your morale every time you take damage for 10s. it's not super epic, but it's pretty cool. also you get thrill of danger, which isn't easily obtained for blue or red line.

whenever you block an attack, you get a stacking crit defense buff, and whenever you parry, you get a stacking crit buff. at 91, the values were about 800 crit def and 325 crit. they stack 5 times, so it's about 4k crit def and 1600 crit. using sting at 5 block stacks stuns the target, at 5 parry stacks puts a bleed on the target and removes the buff. personally, i don't ever use sting in yellow except to remove corruptions because i would rather have the bonuses, and i puck up thrust from redline for bleeds because it helps me a bit rotationally with the parry chain.

also in the parry chain is a new skill called redirect. 30s cooldown, gives you a buff that reduces all incoming damage by 35% and reflects 35% for 10s
because of the long cooldown, as mentioned above, i pick up thrust in redline. with the 5s duration and spreading bleeds with AOE skills, it's pretty nice.

i mentioned AOE threat earlier. in addition to have war-chant on a relatively small cooldown and spreading debuffs with AOEs, there's also a +10% aoe skill damage buff in the tree

the capstone skill is an AOE stun that stuns your marked target for a longer duration and additionally spreads your debuffs to many nearby targets (more than the radiate skill)

there's not much of a focus on blue responses, but if you use a shield, you'll have access to shield-blow, shield-swipe, and bash




as for crit, i don't think there's much of a need to focus on it for your build. blue line gives a +5% crit bonus on shield spikes (and +10m duration), and yellow line has the stacking crit buff that i mentioned above.
and that said, i probably should have expanded on what i meant by crit being important. there's no real need for crit other than from the extra threat it provides and getting the debuff from stagger (which is mainly for yellow), or if you pick up the self heal from redline that heals 2.5% of max morale for every crit with a block or parry reactive skill.

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Originally Posted by oaceen

i'll try to answer these questions as best i can while explaining the fundamental differences between blue line and yellow line tanking.

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Good read.... Would you say that the guardian in the current beta state remains a "basic" class??? It does seem to me, at first glance that there is much more complexity then on live... i might be wrong but if that is the case i find that wonderful news...

Oh and do you think it will be easier, after changes are implemented, to differentiate between good and bad tanks??... Atm, with the content being so easy and guardians so simple to play it has been hard to tell apart the average from the exceptional tank.... Unlike in previous expansions... (for some reason i find this important )

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Originally Posted by zagreb000

Good read.... Would you say that the guardian in the current beta state remains a "basic" class??? It does seem to me, at first glance that there is much more complexity then on live... i might be wrong but if that is the case i find that wonderful news...

Oh and do you think it will be easier, after changes are implemented, to differentiate between good and bad tanks??... Atm, with the content being so easy and guardians so simple to play it has been hard to tell apart the average from the exceptional tank.... Unlike in previous expansions... (for some reason i find this important )

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i actually believe that tanking as a role in and of itself is beyond basic and somewhat complex, so the class mechanics being easy or not easy are only sort of relative.

although that said, i would say guardian tanking in general is a lot more user-friendly. whether or not that's easy or basic, i think it's probably a point of view thing. but, for example, if you can't get any block responses (like certain enemies who completely ignore BPE like durin's bane), you can simply use shield-blow to open a block response and use your block reactive skills. for yellow line, you also have forced opening for parry reactives. and of course there are the 'catch up' taunt skills. i play swtor in addition to lotro, and this is roughly how taunts work in that game.
for mobs with aggro drops, tank swaps, picking up adds that spawn in the middle of a fight, this type of taunt is really useful. it also gives some dps specs the ability to truly off-tank by force-taunting something for a while and actually having the threat to keep it.

blue line is probably still more straightforward and approachable than yellow. you're mostly reliant on block skills and can easily use them regardless of the content (unlike on live though, getting disarmed breaks the chain, since shield-swipe is all by itself in the first step of the block chain), but the only reason to use any parry skills is for smashing stab's bleed or FM. you get a lot of big oh #### cooldowns like pledge, juggernaut, and warrior's fortitude (big morale bubble), so it's a lot more survivable in those 'oops' moments.

and so yellow line is a bit more complex (especially if you're using a shield with the extra 3 skills you get), and there are few more mechanics working with the block and parry stacking buffs and having to mark your target and focusing on debuffing enemies to stay alive rather than buffing yourself, but i would say it's probably only marginally more complex once a player has gotten used to it. you won't have any big cooldown abilities unless you pick up pledge from blue line. the cataclysmic shout capstone is more of supercharged war-chant, and the buffs from warrior's fortitude are permanent while remaining in combat, so it's just a self buff without the big morale bubble from blue.


to answer your second question and bring it back to my original statement, positioning, pacing, and raid awareness are still going to be important no matter the class mechanics. tanks who sit there standing behind the group before a pull waiting for everyone to be ready (basically how a healer or dps should be before a pull), pulling stuff out of AOEs (like flurry of words or improved sticky gourd), or aiming frontal AOEs at a group will be big clues for tanking (in)experience

The first Keen Blade Set bonus, available after you spend 5 Points in total, grants you +5% Melee dmg, 10% critmulti, +2,5% pp magnitude +2.5% pp chance. Similar to the old bonuses the stance granted, but without the penalties.

Heya,

actually, I'm not happy with what I read. On first look it seems that any player's skill is taken out of building up threat.

On the other hand, I may be mistaken, since I have not yet played it. Can anyone here who played a guardian in Beta tell how building aggro works and 'feels'?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Dugal_aus_Gondor

Heya,

actually, I'm not happy with what I read. On first look it seems that any player's skill is taken out of building up threat.

On the other hand, I may be mistaken, since I have not yet played it. Can anyone here who played a guardian in Beta tell how building aggro works and 'feels'?

Thanks.

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Up to a certain amount of targets all you need is a dps rotation with 2-3 taunts built in, put a metronome on your keyboard and go watch TV. No more strategic use of threat builders to manage threat. However if you want to go back and do older raids and aoe tank have fun with that. But it's all good we have BB's now, where all you need is red line no tanking required....

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Originally Posted by Bendin

Up to a certain amount of targets all you need is a dps rotation with 2-3 taunts built in, put a metronome on your keyboard and go watch TV. No more strategic use of threat builders to manage threat. However if you want to go back and do older raids and aoe tank have fun with that. But it's all good we have BB's now, where all you need is red line no tanking required....

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Having similar thoughts here since reading up on the beta on this and other forums - new content doesn't require tanks anymore and I have no interest in running old content over and over again. No threat management needed when solo obviously, so red line all the way, play to cap and park toon until next update.

After I pick up HD with TP during the Christmas sale that is.....

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:
(OP already had a list, but I thought I posted a bit more details since I was doing this for all classes anyway :) )


Weapon Major

Name	Min	Max
Bash Damage	+1%	+10%
Brutal Assault Damage	+1%	+10%
Guardian Area Effect Melee Targets	+1	+5
Guardian's Pledge Cooldown	-4	-60
Guardian's Ward Duration	+1	+10
Overwhelm Critical Rating	+1556	+2228
Overwhelm Damage	+1%	+10%
Sweeping Cut Damage	+1%	+10%
Vexing Blow Damage	+1%	+10%
Whirling Retaliation Damage	+1%	+10%

Weapon Minor

Name	Min	Max
Charge Duration	+1	+10
Guardian Bleed Damage	+2%	+20%
Guardian Bleed Pulses	+1	+9
Stamp Cooldown	-1	-10
Targeted Melee Skills Range	+0.5	+1.7
To the King Damage	+1%	+10%
Turn the Tables Cooldown	-1	-30
Warrior's Heart/Fortitude Duration	+1	+10

Belt Major

Name	Min	Max
Catch a Breath Cooldown	-1	-15
Catch a Breath Morale Heal	+1%	+15%
Challenge Targets	+1	+5
Cry Resist Chance	-264	-416
Guardian's Pledge Magnitude Up, rating	+1	+9
Guardian's Ward Block Rating	+264	+416
Guardian's Ward Damage	+1%	+10%
Guardian's Ward Parry Rating	+264	+416
Shield Damage	+1%	+25%
Sting Damage	+1%	+10%

Belt Minor

Name	Min	Max
Catch A Breath Power Healing	+1%	+15%
Force Taunt Duration	+1	+5
Increased Block, Parry and Evade from Protection	+132	+208
Shield Smash Damage	+3%	+25%
Shield Wall Range	+1	+20
Stagger Critical Rating	+1420	+2260
Stagger Effect Duration	+1	+10
Stagger Positional Damage	+1%	+15%
War Chant Duration	+1	+5
Warrior's Heart/Fortitude Morale Heal	+1%	+25%

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Originally Posted by Bendin

No more strategic use of threat builders to manage threat.

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What strategic use of threat builders? You are kidding right? Tanking is a mindless button mash right now... Right now, when tanking we wait for reactions like monkeys waiting for a button to light up so they can press it and get a banana...

Tanking has always been about one thing... Positioning... The only time "strategic use of threat builders" comes into play is when you need to drop threat... And you will find yourself in that situation 0.01% of the time....

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Originally Posted by Bendin

However if you want to go back and do older raids and aoe tank have fun with that. But it's all good we have BB's now, where all you need is red line no tanking required....

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If made challenging and rewarding i wont have any trouble with replaying OD or some other raids they might scale with the release or later...

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Originally Posted by zagreb000

What strategic use of threat builders? You are kidding right? Tanking is a mindless button mash right now... Right now, when tanking we wait for reactions like monkeys waiting for a button to light up so they can press it and get a banana...

Tanking has always been about one thing... Positioning... The only time "strategic use of threat builders" comes into play is when you need to drop threat... And you will find yourself in that situation 0.01% of the time....




If made challenging and rewarding i wont have any trouble with replaying OD or some other raids they might scale with the release or later...

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And it's no less of a button mash now, even more so. build a rotation and never deviate. Any two bit modern keyboard can do it for you. On live you and your DPS knew where the breaking point and could throttle accordingly. coming soon just pile on.

Yup and I found those incredibly enjoyable fights so when are they gonna retool my favorite fights to match this 1/3 a toolbox guard clown I have now?

I am glad you find this version of a guard enjoyable, I however do not. Nor do I see any reason to support it financially. But just because you like it and I dislike makes neither of our opinions invalid, so no I was not joking.


EDIT: I am not a warden who shivers with glee over the endless retools, revamps, gimps, buffs, wth's they went through. For years I looked over there and thought there but for the grace of god go I. I had a guard, I liked my guard, I lost my guard, I'm gone.

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Originally Posted by Bendin

And it's no less of a button mash now, even more so. build a rotation and never deviate. Any two bit modern keyboard can do it for you. On live you and your DPS knew where the breaking point and could throttle accordingly. coming soon just pile on.

Yup and I found those incredibly enjoyable fights so when are they gonna retool my favorite fights to match this 1/3 a toolbox guard clown I have now?

I am glad you find this version of a guard enjoyable, I however do not. Nor do I see any reason to support it financially. But just because you like it and I dislike makes neither of our opinions invalid, so no I was not joking.


EDIT: I am not a warden who shivers with glee over the endless retools, revamps, gimps, buffs, wth's they went through. For years I looked over there and thought there but for the grace of god go I. I had a guard, I liked my guard, I lost my guard, I'm gone.

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Well all the best to you then... I dont see much of a difference in complexity or skill needed... I always had a rotation i never deviated from...It is simple now, and apparently it will remain to be with HD... Only difference is that you seem to have a choice between viable specs...

I just dont get how is it a 1/3 guard clown with changes, when you couldnt do anything but tank when tanking prior to changes....
Never said your opinion is invalid.. I just dont understand with what you are backing your claims with...
Ah nevermind....

If i remained with my guard when ROI came out, and even during RoR, when we were made clearly into a second rate class, endured during the horrible days of god mode classes in moors, during the frustrating days of the worst in lotro history, guard class dev, Graalx... im sure i can live through these changes even if they are bad... And i dont think they are...

Cheers,

personally I see me sitting somewhere between you, zagreb000 and Bendin.

I think I do like the new idea of having 3 differend builds (or skill trees, name doesn't matter), that play differently and that are more specialized than before. Not being able to do anything at once and differences between classes and builds has always been a good idea in MMOs, and always added to more depth.

On the other hand ... I truly consider "rotating" through a number of skills and not deviate from it more boring than the actual way. The example of the monkey with the bananas is funny, and even fitting, I still see a difference there.
Originally I come from WoW and it was there when I decided that anything "simply rotating" is not what I want. Consequently, even then I did not enjoy playing DD classes, for rotating perfectly is what they need to do.
Instead, I liked tanking and healing, because both could not be done by simply rotating, but required me to look what happens in a fight, estimate dangerous situations coming, and either react accordingly, or sometimes even preemtiveley act.

Then in Lotro I really liked the "waiting for parry or block event", even if it has something of a monkey getting his bananas ;-)
It gave the impression that the guardian is a truly defensive fighter, who waits for a fault of his enemy, and then counters him. It "felt" differently than rotating, and much more fun, at least to me personally.

As a conclusion - I'll wait and look what it's like and how it plays like. A lot of what I like of tanking is far beyond pressing keys, so maybe this change will not have that big impact on my fun. But I just consider this step from "reacting" to "rotating" as a step into a wrong direction.

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Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:
(OP already had a list, but I thought I posted a bit more details since I was doing this for all classes anyway :) )

[*table*]

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Nice list, but remember, all ratings on legacies are not static. They are influenced by level and age and starlit-cristals of the item.